While the Ministry of Defence’s (MoD) notification of ‘Second Positive Indigenisation List’ of 108 items finally confirms that both the Indian Army (IA) and Indian Air Force (IAF) will now receive only the indigenous Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) developed by the MoD-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) and not the Kamov Ka-226T, the absence of any mention about any type of 155mm/52-cal field artillery howitzer (be it towed, mounted gun system of MGS and tracked self-propelled) can only mean that such items will be imported for the foreseeable future. While the towed 155mm/52-cal howitzer was mentioned in the first negative list released on August 9, 2020, and the embargo on imports was to kick in from December 2020, the date was subsequently changed on August 21 to December 31, 2021. Now it has been left open-ended.
The process for acquiring 155mm/52-cal
towed howitzers and MGS began in 2001 as part of the IA’s Field Artillery
Rationalisation Plan, which had been drawn up in 1999. Multiple requests for
proposal (RFP) were issued, starting with the first in February 2002. Nearly 14
years ago, the MoD had cleared the proposal for a 155mm/52-cal towed howitzers
under the ‘Buy and Make’ category. In the last RFP, which was issued under the
UPA government in June 2013, only two companies—ELBIT Systems of Israel (teamed
up with the MoD-owned OFB) and Nexter Systems of France (teamed up with Larsen
& Toubro) participated. The competition was for the supply of 400 towed
howitzers off-the-shelf and licenced-production of another 1,180 howitzers by
Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), under a full Transfer of Technology (ToT) process
that guarantees 50% local material content.
In March 2019, following
exhaustive ‘Field Trials Cum Evaluation Process’ spread over two years of ELBIT’s
Autonomous Towed Howitzer Ordnance System or ATHOS (weighing less than 15
tonnes) and Nexter’s Trajan (weighing 13 tonnes), ELBIT Systems was declared
the lowest bidder (L-1). ELBIT had quoted €477 million for 400 fully-built
ATHOS, while Nexter quoted €776 million, which translated into each ATHOS
costing €1.2 million, significantly cheaper than the Trajan’s €1.94
million per unit cost. Thus, the ATHOS cost 40% less than the Trajan. cost
negotiation process was successfully completed between SIBAT, the International
Defence Cooperation Directorate of Israel’s Ministry of Defence (representing
ELBIT Systems) and the MoD in July 2019.
However, in December 2020, SIBAT wrote a letter to the MoD to expedite contract signature and even stated that in case the MoD wanted to order only 400 ATHOS (for 20 IA medium regiments) and forego the option of licenced manufacture, the related cost corresponding to the ToT process can be deducted from the total contract price. In addition, ELBIT Systems through SIBAT offered the ToT for the 1,180 ATHOS as an option for India, at the same cost as mentioned in the commercial offer made. ELBIT has also committed itself to achieve 70% indigenisation within the contract for the first 400 ATHOS howitzers, starting from the first units.
Finally, ELBIT also
promised to supply the 400 howitzers much earlier than the contract delivery
schedule—the first six within 10 months after contract signing, an additional
six within 14 months, and the remainder according to an accelerated delivery
schedule, which will ensure finalisation of the deliveries not later than 54
months from the date of contract signature, instead of the 72 months stipulated
in the draft contract.
For meeting its ambitious 70% indigenisation
target, ELBIT has proposed to take the unprecedented step of setting up two parallel
production facilities in India, under which it will partner with the Pune-based
Kalyani Group’s Bharat Forge Ltd (BFL) for supplying the first 400 ATHOS
howitzers. After that, ELBIT has proposed to undertake ToT with OFB to build
the next 1,180 howitzers. ELBIT has an existing industrial joint venture (JV) with
Bharat Forge called BF-Elbit Advanced Systems, and another JV with Alpha Design
Technologies, called Alpha ELSEC, and another JV with Hyderabad-based Aditya
Precitech Pvt Ltd.
From the above, we can safely
conclude that the procurement of 400 ATHOS is now a foregone conclusion, and
the fight is now between two opposing lobbies: one within the MoD where the
Department for Defence production & Supplies’ Secretary (who is a sitting
member of the OFB’s Board of Directors) being duty-bound to mandate the
licenced-production of 1,180 ATHOS howitzers by OFB; and the other led by the
MoD-owned Defence R & D Organisation, which is lobbying against the ATHOS
and instead pushing for the procurement of 1,580 indigenously developed
Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS).
The ATAGS project commenced in
2012 with two strategic industrial partners—BFL and Tata Aerospace & Defence Ltd.
The ATAGS was developed in a record time of 30 months and has gone through
extensive trials over the last four years and performed admirably with
remarkable consistency. Electrical power is used for gun-laying and
ammunition-handling. ATAGS is configured with an all-electric drive that ensures
maintenance-free and reliable operation over longer periods of time. The 155mm/52-cal
howitzer has automatic setting up, laying with high-end SIGMA-30 ring laser
gyro-based system (from SAFRAN/SAGEM of France) and an automated ammunition
handling system that loads the shell, bi-modular charge and primer
simultaneously, with manual back-up for gun-laying.
The ATAGS also has an advanced hydraulic drive system that provides effective manoeuvrability in different terrain such as on roads, cross-country terrain, deserts and high-altitude areas. The high-power auxiliary power unit (made in India) provides effective self-propelled speed, rapid deployment and short response time. ATAGS has greater than 95% indigenous content. It comprises 7,463 components of which 4,977 are manufactured parts involving about 30,000 manufacturing processes and more than 2,00,000 inspection parameters. The longer range of the ATAGS comes from its larger chamber, which houses a larger quantity of high-explosive propellant that shoots out the warhead further. The ATAGS chamber volume is 25 litres, compared to 23 litres in all other existing 155mm/52-cal towed howitzers. The project entered the TRL Stage-10 (as per DRDO TRL stages) last October and was put through mandatory trials over the period of last five years and has completed them successfully.
The 18-tonne ATAGS performed well in high-altitude trials in January 2018 at the 12,000-foot-high Menla Firing Range in Sikkim. In these trials, the BFL-developed ATAGS prototype fired a total of 130+ rounds, mostly in Zone 7, and the feedback was that the system had met the parameters. The howitzer prototype fielded by TATA Aerospace & Defence Ltd too succeeded in firing 99 rounds. However, when it went for additional trials in September, a gun barrel burst while being fired. At the 100th round, which was fifth of the rapid-fire practice, the gun tube sheared off, thus creating the first unfortunate incident during the entire process of design and development. It must be noted that the two prototypes, which have till now fired almost 2,000 rounds between them, can easily withstand pressures up to 560 mega Pascals and are the only ones to fire munitions in Zone 7.
PLAGF MGS For Warfare In High-Altitude Areas
85 comments:
Prasunda,
Why is the ATHOS being chosen when the ATAGS has performed so well as you have pointed out ? The power of the import lobby ?
Satyaki
Going forward what does all this mean for Dhanush? Currently 114 Dhanush 155/45 guns are on order. What happened to the 155/52 version? Has it cleared trials? Further there is Bharat 52 in the picture. Whatever has to happen, needs to happen as soon as possible.
Still, procuring a towed artillery in the age of MGS? IA is indeed preparing for the past wars. BTW, As an optimistic, I think by keeping options open GoI might be trying to bring down ATAGS price, otherwise, this does not make any sense at all. After this much toiling by DRDO and co, and then giving up on this is criminal. The bright side is DRDO may finally focus on the MGS version of this ATAGS.
What could be the possible trigger of this decision?
MoD will never improve, for them indian freedom is cheap.
Venky
To SATYAKI, ANKIT KUMAR, DASHU & VENKY: Let’s try to examine the issue with the help of available numbers. With 114 Dhanush-45s, 400 of the 155mm/52-cal towed howitzers (which have yet to be ordered since the contract has not yet been signed, but will likely be signed in future) & 90 K-9/Vajra tracked SPHs & 300 upgunned towed Sharangs, the IA will have 904 155mm howitzers compatible with the ‘Shakti’ digitised artillery fire-direction system—which is more than enough reqd for usage in the plains—since under a nuclear overhang the ONLY available & plausible battlefield in the plains (that will involve offensive manoeuvre warfare aimed at capturing vast chunks of territory) is along the Working Boundary around southern Jammu, i.e the Chicken’s Neck area. On the other hand, for mountain warfare in Sikkim & Arunachal Pradesh, for preventing PLAGF ingressing into northern Sikkim, southern Chumbi Valley & Arunachal Pradesh, 145 M-777 CH-47F-transportable UFHs are more than enough. That leaves us with the reqmt for high-altitude plateau warfare in Ladakh. There, while towed 155mm/52-cal howitzers can be sited in depth in the rear areas (like to the left of the DS-DBO Road), the frontline howitzers tasked with supporting the IA’s mechanised forces & armoured brigades will have to be of the MGS-type if manoeuvre warfare IS TO BE FOUGHT IN AREAS LIKE Demchok, Chushul/Spanggur Gap, Hot Springs, Gogra & Depsang Plains. The adversary (PLAGF) has left the IA with no other alternative since the PLAGF has already begun service-inducting 122mm & 155mm MGS in appreciable numbers. Similarly, if the IA was to take on the responsibility of defending Bhutan, or mounting a limited offensive in either northern Sikkim or northeastern Sikkim (adjoining the Chumbi Valley), then again the reqmts of manoeuvre warfare will dictate the usage of 155mm/52-cal MGS.
From the above, we can thus conclude that the reqmt for 1,580 towed 155mm/52-cal howitzers is a bloated one & in reality no more than 600 of them are reqd for warfighting in the plains, where the existing road/railway transportation can easily take in the 18-tonne ATAGS & 67.5-tonne Arjun Mk.1A MBTs since all the bridges have since 2017 been upgraded to MLC-70 standard. Consequently, the weight factor of the weapons platform now becomes totally insignificant in the plains. Over mountainous terrain, be in it Sikkim or Uttarakhand or Himachal Pradesh or J & K UT or Ladakh UT, all existing bridges are being upgraded to MLC-70 standard, while all new bridges now being built from the outset will be built to MLC-70 standard. Hence, while 18-tonne ATAGS will be usable without posing any weight penalties, its towed mobility characteristics will pose problems when being towed over roads offering very tight turning radii. And this is exactly why MGS solutions are globally preferred for high-altitude area (HAA) warfighting & that’s exactly why the PLAGF is deploying 122mm & 155mm MGs in Aksai Chin & around Ladakh. Consequently, the IA should revisit its field artillery rationalisation plan & increase the quantum of 155/52-cal MGS to be procured from the present projected figure of 814 to more than 1,600, since MGS solutions will also be reqd for anti-invasion fire-assaults when in use in India’s offshore island-chains.
To ANKIT KUMAR: How can the OFB-developed Bharat-52 MGS be subjected to any field-trials when the IA HQ itself issued a global RFI on April 1, 2021 for 155mm/52-cal MGS? BFL’s Bharat-52 is almost the same as the ATHOS. And matters cannot be accelerated since the IA has still not finalised the configurations of its projected Integrated Battle Groups (IBG) & consequently even the reqd quantum & type of fire-assaults to be delivered has not yet been finalised. And that’s why there exists such a huge mismatch between the desired types of 155mm/52-cal howitzers & the real operational reqmts, i.e. the ratio of towed howitzers to MGS remains terribly lop-sided & does not reflect the actual battlefield requirements.
sir,
1. is it true that PAK has been building up by ceasefire agreement
https://twitter.com/Bolebaba33/status/1399310924599619584
2.i saw a book on something called as project silver bullet and a reverse search led to one of ur article and when i tried the u tube link, by then it was deleted. cud u say what it is?
is it the Avro Canada VZ-9 Avrocar?
3.how long will indian army decide on IBG re-organization. i know it depends on economy, and strategy of PLA in Ladakak and so on.... however any improvement seen?
4. what abou the ak 203 deal? still in limbo
5. sorry to bother u again, will arjun mk2 even remotely look like this
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=CMLSxl%2bt&id=7FFB37111DE5D85B8274339AB74B0130FE45EBC6&thid=OIP.CMLSxl-t9mzTlq6OBbK9wAHaD4&mediaurl=https%3a%2f%2fdb4sgowjqfwig.cloudfront.net%2fcampaigns%2f88766%2fassets%2f343354%2farjun_mk_3_mbt.jpg%3f1404336437&exph=925&expw=1767&q=arjun+mk3&simid=607990373627226947&ck=6B40386B58FDEBD7BDD5B320788FAFC6&selectedIndex=0&FORM=IRPRST
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=b3acFx5f&id=50C4B6E120AEF686FFD4FACDEB1A2D69D2946A01&thid=OIP.b3acFx5f5wd3yxE_xvUujgAAAA&mediaurl=https%3a%2f%2fdefenceforumindia.com%2fforum%2fproxy.php%3fimage%3dhttp%3a%252F%252Fi.imgur.com%252FuGcF8V7.jpg%253F1%26hash%3d09c023bd2d0009ef5d94af2dbd35940d&exph=489&expw=467&q=arjun+mk3&simid=608012338077643845&ck=0680114967628745A2A4F8311DE1CADA&selectedIndex=109&FORM=IRPRST
thank you
Yogesh
Hi Prasun,
It seems only helicopter with all up weight < 3.5 ton single engined land variant is prohibited for import. So the Kamov Ka-226T, being a twin engines helicopter might still qualify.
Your thoughts on this please.
Regards
You say, towed ATAGS will have issues in mountains. The article in The print is exactly opposite. It says ATAGS has been tested for 541 kms for mobility.
https://theprint.in/defence/drdo-will-begin-trials-of-made-in-india-towed-artillery-in-june-but-army-still-has-concerns/668417/
I agree with your assessment IA has to go in for more Truck mounted artillery and another 50-100 K9.
For mountains it could make sense to have BMP-2 mounted 120 mm mortars too to move with infantry ?
regards
Venky
Who will invade India's island-chains? Is it a possibility in the future?
Our military doesn't have musch presence in Island territories because there is not much threat.
aarpee
Prasunda,
VMT.
1) What then becomes of the ATAGS in this situation ? Will it be inducted or discarded in spite of being an excellent gun?
2) Would the 380 mm Prahar be inducted ever? If so, what timeframe and in what numbers ?
3) Would the 380 mm Prahar also be used for delivery of TNWs ?
4) In what timeframe would the Pralay be available ?
Satyaki
To YOGESH: 1) Both sides have been building bunkers along the LoC. 2) Everything is explained here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oK1L0a-MTTQ&t=21s 3) They are time-consuming processes & take at least 5 years to become deployable. 4) The IA has today issued its 2nd RFI on FRCVs:
https://www.indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/RFI/791/RFI%20FRCV%20010621.pdf
To RAGHU: technically, yes, but the original reqmt was for single-engined LUH & it remains a mystery till this day why the twin-engined Ka-226T was invited to take part in the competition. But with no contract being signed as yet for Ka-226Ts, series-production of the HAL-developed LUH will begin this year & deliveries will be accelerated to fulfil the reqmts of both the IAF & IA.
To VENKY: Mobility tests are designed for proving the reliability of the APU & endurance of the platform. Deployability tests on the other hand are designed for demonstrating the time taken for ferrying the platform to its final destination within a specified timeframe. Consequently, mobility tests can prove that a platform can be ferried by road, but at what timeframe? How long does it take to reach its final destination? Hence, mobility & deployability parameter are distinctly different. Back in mid-1999 the IA lost a few of its Bofors FH-77B howitzers when the towing trucks were unable to negotiate the tight turning radii on the roads east of Zoji La Pass. It was such incidents that gave rise to the reqmt for MGS.
To AARPEE: Possibilities always exist & cannot be wished. One must always be prepared for worst-case scenarios. For example, who would have thought of this:
Malaysia’s air force has said it scrambled its combat aircraft to intercept 16 Chinese military aircraft that entered airspace administered by Malaysia near the state of Sabah on May 31, 2021, warning that the manoeuvre was tantamount to a “serious threat on national sovereignty and aviation safety”. The Chinese air force transport planes approached Malaysian airspace in "tactical formation" and flew to within about 60 nautical miles of the coast, Malaysia's air force said in a statement. They were spotted by radar and several attempts were made to contact the planes. As they approached, the air force sent planes to intercept and identify them, and they did not enter the country's airspace before flying off. The Malaysian air force described the appearance of the planes as "suspicious".
To SATYAKI: 1) If the ATAGS gets rejected by the IA, then it will be the first major setback for the MoD’s much-touted strategic industrial partnership model of procuring new-generation weapon systems. 2 & 4) These issues cannot be trashed out unless & until the IA finalises the role & composition of its IBGs & their offensive fire-assault reqmts. 3) It can well be.
prasun,
1 next gen corvettes & tanks are banned under the new list .. what gives us this confidence? the russians are far ahead in the game (karakut class, 20385,/86) or take the french gowind class, Israeli Saar 72, who can forget the visby class etc..ditto with tanks while T 14 may have its teething troubles but is still is way ahead i its terms of crew protection electronics add the proposed 152 mm gun. EU is now working to get itself a next gen tanks under the MGCS future tank programme both 130mm gun-germans & 140 mm -french are being tested.. add a host of new features what is your view on this. Can you add to this article as to what tech design mastery/innovation has prompted some of the key exclusions in this list
2 why Athos , why not exploit dhanush if not ATAGS?
Prasun ,
just sharing your old article as a supporting to my queries
http://trishul-trident.blogspot.com/2019/07/case-for-combining-indian-navys-ngmv.html..
To JUST_CURIOUS: here’s the list:
https://static.pib.gov.in/WriteReadData/specificdocs/documents/2021/may/doc202153101.pdf
Importation of MBTs is allowed & does not fgure in the list & hence the RFI on FRCVs was released yesterday & I’ve weblinked it above. There are 2 types of corvettes reqd as per the IN: NGMV & NGC. So far, no one from the IN has stated whether or not these 2 separate reqmts will be clubbed together, although it makes sense to do so. As for the FRCV reqmt, which will include the FMBT & FICV reqmts, the issuance of the RFI by IA HQ represents the strongest negative indictment against the DRDO’s CVRDE. In one stroke, the RFI’s issuance indicates that the CVRDE is incapable of conceptualising & developing both the FMBT & FICV, which will be highly demoralising for the CVRDE & Indian industries as a whole. Consequently, we can only conclude that the IA has no institutional faith on the CVRDE neither does it want to tax its own in-house brains for conceptualising its future battlefields, thereby ensuring that India remains a nett technology importer for the next 2 decades at the very least. Indeed a very sad state of affairs.
On another note, it remains a mystery why the Ladakh UT administration isn't laying fibre-optic cables while undertaking the construction of asphalted roads throughout Ladakh:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_ahRx0tuz0&t=2s
Such activities should go hand-in-hand, instead of first constructing the roads & then digging them up again for the laying of such cables. Looks like there's terrible lack of coordination when it comes to border infrastructure development activities.
1)In the RFI for FRCV in line 16. It is written that only Foreign OEMs are allowed. Why?
So what happened to Arjun Mk2
and FMBT/NGMBT?
Tank import so necessary now?
2)The Army should first fully upgrade the T-72/90 family with APU,APS, better engines atleast?
3)Do you think new tanks are so necessary for us in the next 15-20 years when current T-90S will serve for such a longtime in the future?
I know replacement of older T-72 is necessary but can't that pe done with some indigenous product?
4)RFI had also been issued for Light tanks so if Light tanks+Arjun Mk2+FMBT isn't that enough to replace the older T-72 in the 2030s?
5)This is a waste of time and money I guess no focus on Attack Heptrs,UAVs,MLRS,MGS or NAMICA like platforms?
To SANJAY: 1) Foreign OEMs can team up with Indian counterparts of their own choice. The FRCV reqmt is from year 2030 onwards as the RFI states. Arjun Mk.2 will be available in the near future. There was never any NG-MBT reqmt. 2) That work is already underway. 3) T-90S & T-72s will become obsolete by 2030 & will thus serve only as 2nd echelon forces. 4) There’s no room for light tanks in high-intensity conventional battlefields. Light tanks can only be used against irregular insurgents or terrorists, not against any professional land force. 5) The PLAGF already has developed NLOS-BSMs like wire-guided/TV-guided Red Arrow-10 AFT-10 Family of missiles, plus CM-501GA & CM-502V vertically-launched anti-armour missiles launched from the very kind of armoured high-mobility trucks that are used by the PCL-161 & PCL-181 MGS. That’s why, instead of light tanks, what the IA requires are armoured vehicles like re-engined BMP-2s carrying guided-missiles like this:
GL-Brimstone: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EaFQO6AX0AET7UM.jpg
https://www.savunmahaber.com/en/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/ResimMBDA.jpg
ALAS: https://www.autistici.org/againstservants/serbia/ALAS-missile.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-bi_NuOkotdo/USV4ss8MY1I/AAAAAAAAKo8/uEVIsJxKZDo/s1600/alas+missile-03.jpg
ha ha ha very funny. It's now a confirmed known fact that IA is intellectually challenged so you cannot fault IA there to show complete disrespect to CVRDE.
About the new RFI for tanks, who else other than the Russians can participate ?
Artillery plan was made in 1999, 22 years later, the progress in acquisition has been made only after 2014
If IA changes its requirements towards truck mounted artillery, will not it be another 5 years of file moving around MoD ? Maybe that is why IA does not want to touch anything ?
regards
Venky
Hi Prasun,
Given the RFI for future tank for IA and the only available tank for the same RFI seems to be T-14.
1.Is the IA betting on relations between US and Russia to improve ?
2.What is the possibility of US pressuring us to fall in line with regards to Russian weapon procurement ?
3.Is the RFI just a pure incompetence in part of the IA ?
4.Do you think it's time to rein in this stupidity?
Regards,
Sandy
Prasun Da,
A. So, May it be right to conclude that there is an 'Importer's Lobby' remains strongly inside IA, or am I missing something ? BTW was not snubbing OFB 155/52 Cal MGS by IA 'tit-for-tat' since, at the height of Last year border tension the very employess of OFB went for strike, when service of their was urgently needed by the IA, hampering fucntion of OFB ? Also, it is very disgusting to say, in this sector work such low life cretins who in their private verbal chit chat, can openly wish for Chinese bomb Indian postions in the border area.
Utterly disgraceful attitude.
B. Dada, what is your view regarding the reported BEML High Mobility Vehicle Concept, if I am not wrong, BEML had remained Tatra - assembler for decades ? While Indian Private players are in much better postion offer for requiremnents ?
Thanks is advance for your views.
To VENKY & SANDY: All major powers are developing FMBTs, not just Russia. Here are some examples:
Franco-German MGCS: https://www.isl.eu/documents/flyers/EN/isl_MGCS_EN_nm.pdf
US Future Combat System: https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/docs/4fcs97.pdf
https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/images/tanks-1604673058.jpg
Japan & China too are busy with such efforts. And all the more reason why entities like the CVRDE are being excluded from the R & D process.
To SUMANTA NAG: The much anticipated large-scale induction of the Dhanush artillery guns, also known as ‘Desi Bofors’, has been hit due to the Covid-19 pandemic as well as production quality concerns flagged by the Army. Since April 2019, when the induction started, only 12 of the indigenously built long-range artillery guns have been delivered. This is far below the 18 guns required to make a full regiment. Incidentally, the first six guns were delivered in April 2019 itself. The delay meant that the first regiment of Dhanush, which was to be raised by the end of 2019, had not been completed by then and the date was later pushed to March 2020. Furthermore, while the Army is satisfied with the guns in terms of fire power and mobility, it has flagged multiple concerns regarding the production quality. Dhanush is being manufactured by the Gun Carriage Factory (CGF) in Madhya Pradesh’s Jabalpur, which comes under the state-run Ordnance Factory Board (OFB). The production system has still not stabilised. After integrated firing checks, issues have cropped with regard to the hydraulics, sight and even mounting in some cases. The Army is awaiting the production system to stabilise so that a larger number of guns, which is an advanced variant of the Bofors, can be inducted. Incidentally, the CBI had registered a case in 2017 against a Delhi-based firm and unidentified officials of the Gun Carriage Factory for China-made parts camouflaged as those ‘Made in Germany’ finding their way to the production line of Dhanush. Another issue that has delayed the production is the Covid-19 pandemic, which has halted the work at the factory for quite some time now. The national lockdown last year and the pandemic also meant that the supply chain got affected. Dhanush had passed its final test at Pokhran in June 2018, after trials in high altitude areas like Sikkim and Leh and in hot and humid weather in Balasore, Odisha and Babina in Jhansi. The GCF got the Dhanush project in October 2011 and the first prototype was built in 2014. The Army had ordered 114 Dhanush guns in 2018. Costing about Rs.14.5 crore a piece, Dhanush is equipped with an inertial navigation-based sighting system, auto-laying facility, onboard ballistic computation, and an advanced day and night direct firing system.
Hi Prasun,
One can only pray that good sense prevails and we will go for atags, additional Dhanush and than mgs versions of 39 and 52 caliber.
Also, I am so disheartened to see frcv rfi. Seems made for Russia. The anger i feel against cannot be explained on plain words. Why do they want to do this to Indian Industry.
Regards,
Srinivasa Nanduri
Prasunda,
Best option is ATAGAS for Western border and ATHOS for Eastern and Northern frontier. As ATAGAS is having range so in plane it will be more successful. ATHOS is lighter so carrying it will be easier at hilly areas.
Prasunda, what about up-gradation of 130mm artillery gun to ' 155/52 Sarang '. It's the most cost effective and easiest way to upgun !
Best regards,
Prasunda,
https://twitter.com/drapr007/status/1400093036852305920
How true is this? If true, has PLAGF moved 10 regiments i.e. 180 PHL03s to the area near eastern Ladakh? That looks unlikely.
Satyaki
Prasun,
1- Are you suggesting that IA will buy the arjun mk2 for sure as you mention that it will be avaliable soon?
2- you may have answered this before but nevertheless- can Kamorta class frigates be retrofitted with bramhos vls in their mid life upgrades? any info you can share on P28A?
3- what is the benefit of having semi recessed pylons which eurofighter opted but rafale did not or any other fighters for that matter but now KFX has ? can mk1a opt for it .. I had read that it limits the weapon only to a2a missile then how does eurofighter manage it
4- why is IA not thinking on the lines o ensuring economies of scales .. what now for L&T now that K9 production has come to an end.. shouldn't IA work with the industry to create a value for both
Dear Prasunji,
You have mentioned that Bharat 52 is quite similar to ATHOS then why order ATHOS at all? What about the use of another light 155mm gun mounted on a 4*4 truck by Bharat forge? Why it is also not considered?
Thanks
Mr. Prasun
What do you mean by "all the more reason why entities like CVRDE are being excluded from R&D process?
Are you saying that CVRDE is incompetent for FRCV or that better options are available globally?
To SRINIVASA NANDURI: All this is happening because the essential tools reqd for coming up with a balanced & credible force modernisation plan for all the 3 armed services are missing. Foremost among them is the declassification of battle accounts of past wars, especially since 1962. If such information is not made available to both the armed forces & Indian industry, then how can one come up with any end-product that is optimised for the future battlefields? For instance, under nuclear overhang, neither India nor Pakistan will contemplate launching offensive land campaigns across the IB because both sides have the right under international law to defend themselves with all means at their disposal, i.e. using nuclear WMDs as first-strike weapons inside their respective sovereign territories. Consequently, armoured manoeuvre warfare will take place only in the Chammb-Sialkot sector adjoining the WB & LoC. Hence, any FMBT will be reqd to be optimised for operating in such particular terrain & not in the deserts & marshlands & hence there was never any need for ATGMs like Nag to be fired at noontime or anytime in afternoon anywhere in the Thar Desert. And yet the IA made the DRDO waste precious time & money on optimising the Nag for usage in the desert’s bristling heat!
Similarly, what will be the anti-armour firepower contribution to future battles by the IA’s attack helicopters? The answer to this will determine the number of attack helicopters & FMBTs to be procured. So, unless detailed operations analysis is carried out & made available to both the DRDO & Indian industry, there will not be any indigenous solutions forthcoming.
To PARTHASARATHI: Even the existing Bofors FH-77B 155mm/39-cal towed howitzer can attain a range of 41km when fired from the mountains of J & K and Ladakh UTs & in Sikkim, since lesser atmospheric densities at high altitudes increase the howitzer’s range, which in the plains will be limited to only 32km. But then again, maximum range does not matter at all if there is no direct observation of the target being hit or missed & hence in places like Arunachal Pradesh the howitzers are always placed 20km behind the direct fire-observation posts of the IA there. So once again, here’s the cardinal rule for using howitzers of all types: never engage in blind fire against targets that cannot be seen visually, either by the naked eye or by UAVs. And as I had explained earlier, the platform weight factor has become irrelevant because all the bridges are not being upgraded/built to MLC-70 standard that can sustain loads of 70 tonnes. Furthermore, ATHOS still requires towing trucks that will find it extremely difficult to negotiate the tight turning radii of roads over mountainous terrain. Therefore, the only option is the 155mm/52-cal MGS. The OFB-developed Sharang is a 155mm/45-cal towed howitzer & 300 of them are on order:
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-HRC_7UlNHuI/XkSiXJsMlfI/AAAAAAAASo8/zxLOo-3SalYXfnE7lIHTod9j_nl3pbkhgCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/Z-2.jpg
To SATYAKI: That fella is claiming that 10 units have been deployed & you are ASSUMING it to be 10 regiments!
To JUST_CURIOUS: 1) That’s precisely the reason why the DMRL & MIDHANI had developed & produced high-nitrogen steel (HNS). If there was no reqmt for developing Arjun Mk.2, then HNS would never have been developed & produced. 2) Whay should ASW corvettes have such long-range ASCMs? If at all there’s any requirement for additional weaponry, then the rocket-launched SMART ought to go on-board. 3) Such pylons existed even on the Panavia Tornado ADV & Northrop Grumman’s F-14 Tomcat. 4) L & T can always get a supplementary contract for producing K-10 ammunition resupply/reloading vehicles for the K-9 tracked SPHs.
To SAMAR: Why consider the Bharat-52 or ATHOS at all when ATAGS is being developed? That will be my counter-question. When any howitzer is mounted on a truck, the resultant MGS has to be effective on various fronts, be it in the plains or mountains. Consequently, the 52-cal solution always scores higher than the 39-cal one. The heli-transportable M-777 UFH can be deployed & re-deployed much faster through helilift than by any 4 x 4 armoured truck.
To HARISH: What I am saying is the IA is presenting itself as an incompetent institution devoid of intellect because successive Govts of India have not authorised the declassification of past battle accounts from which valuable lessons can be learnt about future armoured manoeuvre warfare trends, as I have explained above.
HI prasun
as the alh mk3 has been qualified wiht a radar in the nose ,it can be used as a batlefields surveliance heli with data link. does the X band desi aesa radar suit well for that role albeit in a smaller version ? or to save cost by using an older radar mofified for that use. whattype of radar is on the mk3?
To RAD: ELTA's ELM-2055DX Airborne Ground Surveillance Radar:
https://www.iai.co.il/drupal/sites/default/files/2020-02/ELM-2055DX-SAR%20GMTI%20All-Weather%20Surveillance%20Radar%20Brochure.pdf
ELM-2054: https://www.iai.co.il/drupal/sites/default/files/2020-02/ELM-2054-Lightweight%20SAR-GMTI%20Radar%20Brochure.pdf
ALH Mk.3 uses this: https://www.iai.co.il/drupal/sites/default/files/2020-02/ELM-2022ML-%20Lightweight%20Airborne%20Maritime%20Surveillance%20Radar%20Brochure.pdf
Prasun Da
Even decades of experience in development of armoured vehicle can into teething problems.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/15123499/tanks-army-staggering-5-5billion-trials-halted-troops-sick-damage-hearing/
- https://www.timesnownews.com/india/article/tiananmen-1989-a-diplomat-remembers/765087
kinda weirded out by the article above. do you agree with the views? apparently we are not in a zero sum game with the country that is grabbing our territory. yes, human rights is sometimes used as pressure tactic but they have promoted admirable advances in human rights & to generalize it in such a fashion seems stupid. i continue to be baffled at the competency of people manning the foreign service.
Prasun,
1- why wasn't XV2004 maritime radar used on ALH Mk3 instead of ELM-2022
Prasunda
Excellent Article by Pravin Sawhney
The Chinese Military Threat is Not a 'Border Dispute', It's Time India's Leaders Realised This - https://m.thewire.in/article/security/the-chinese-military-threat-is-not-a-border-dispute-its-time-indias-leaders-realised-this
To BHOUTIK: Here’s his interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWQwMdH_ZeU&t=37s
But this one is much better: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8tZNt4nwUA&t=1s
To JUST_CURIOUS: Why? Because it wasn’t found suitable for service-induction, it’s that simple.
To KAUSTAV: That was known since 1960 itself during the negotiations process to demarcate the respective claim-lines, when China only made oral claims without the support of any authentic documentation. The same continues today, with China making ‘historical’ claims. That’s why India too ought to have begaun making similar claims on Xinjiang, which during the Mahabharata era was known as the territories of ‘Uttar Kuru’. You may recall that famous dialogue of Missala in the movie Ben Hur, in which he had said: “You can kill one idea only with another idea.”
Meanwhile, it looks like Project 971 SSGN INS Chakra is on its way to Vladivostok for have its broken fibre-glass sonar-dome replaced with a new one:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E29p6L2VkAI3G2y?format=jpg&name=medium
The pennant no while in IN service is not S-72, but S-71. INS Arihant has pennant no S-72.
Prasunda
Precisely, eventually India's security lies in not only recover if Aksai Chin but control of Tibet & Xinjiang with eviction of PRC. Call it Gostana, Uttar Kuru or Kailas Mansarovar. That the difficulty jas increased manifold is a given but opportunities always arise, if India is prepared, in terms of vision, strategy, tactics & equipment besides ofcourse a robust economy.
Dear Prasun,
With PM Modi talking to VP Kamala Harris of USA, is India now bowing down before USA? Is Modi approaching USA for help will create more blackmailing situations for India? Please share your views.
1)Many experts are saying that China is preparing for war against India which will happen in 5-6 yrs which will be joined by Pak to make it a 2 front scenario. Considering Indian military completes restructuring, rebalancing & theaterization - Will it be able to protect territorial integrity & cause unacceptable attrition to enemy?
2) Is this true? https://twitter.com/PravinSawhney/status/1399514069787242499?s=20
2.A)Will PLA be able to destroy our nuke kill chain?
2.B)Will India be able to conduct a counterforce & countervalue nuclear strike deep inside China despite China having a layered missile defence system?
Regards!
RAJAT
How will Indian army counter MBRL of china, they have guided rockets with 150 + km, is India thinking anything beyond pinaka MK3?
To ASD: As I had explained earlier, India is already heavily dependent on the US for industrial equipment reqd by India-based pharma companies. So far, India has given in to US demands for excluding China-based OEMs from 5-G cellular comms trials in India & has also agreed to demand for an international investigation into the origins of the COVID-19 pandemic.
To RAJAT: The PLA is not a volunteer armed forces but is a political entity reporting to a political party, the CPC. Also, it has been a highly corrupt institution between 1976 & 2015 & therefore it will take an equally long time to become less corrupt. In addition, it is largely a conscript entity & only 24% of it is made of of voluntary human resources. All these militate against any prospect of the PLAGF, PLAN & PLAAF going to any kind of full-contact war with anyone for the foreseeable future of at least another 14 years (till 2035). Therefore, none of the prospects listed by you are implementable till 2035, rest assured. Finally, due to the strictest sanctions imposed thus far by the West since April 2020, China is now steadily being left behind as far as technological advancements go & this explains why several China-based semiconductor startups, despite tens of billions of US$ being pumped into them since 2019, have till now failed to even complete the construction of semiconductor foundries. Lastly, China’s inability to develop COVID-19 vaccines with credible efficacies is ample proof of its technological limitations & lack of innovativeness. As a result of all these, one can safely rest assured that China will remain a straggler & the technological gap between China & the West will further widen at a much faster pace.
To SANTOSH: The IA has 36 Smerch-M MBRLs. If reqd, some of them can easily be re-deployed in Ladakh or anywhere else as reqd. Meanwhile, watch this to get an idea about how difficult it is to build durable roadways in Arunachal Pradesh:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6SYTdhkmHM
https://youtu.be/qj0eP-Anr-4
Can older tanks of IA be converted into APC as shown above ... If done they may substantially fulfil APC requirement
Prasunda
There is a huge difference
between what Mr.Pravin Sawhney says, though misunderstood, that India needs to prepare in better & innovative ways to take on PRC & PLA and what this apologist scum Mr. Sunil Saran asks India to do with reference to QUAD & PRC. India and PRC don't have to go to War. As the bigger military power, the entire responsibility is that of PRC. If India gets back its claimed territories, India wouldn't give a fart about the rest of South Asia. It is however in the interests of India that PRC collapses & buffer zone of Tibet & Xinjiang is restored. That PRC is stronger today is on account of technology inputs from the West & because of it's economy as well as a strong state. Mr. Saran gives a very poor apology of an article wherein he threatens & blackmails India on behalf of PRC asking India to Quit QUAD https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/blogs/strategic-insights/india-must-quit-quad/
Dear Prasun,
I got my answer. Trump today asked China to pay 10 trillion dollars as fine to the entire world. I hope China will be checkmated like this.
BTW are you happy with the Government of India announcing PLI schemes for manufacturing in pharma sector, telecom gear, electronics and other sectors. Again semiconductor chip industry is still not booming in India. Why? Do you think that GoI is in right track by announcing PLI schemes to make India a manufacturing hub. Or is it like putting the cart before the horse????
To ASD: https://www.theweek.in/theweek/cover/2021/06/03/the-real-virus-came-from-zhoushan-and-chinese-military-found-it-dr-li-meng-yan.html
Why the Global Chip Shortage Is Hard to Overcome: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FP_g-as29x0
420 million 5G subscribers in China, true or false? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tE24j5WFw4
Another 10 Billion USD Chip Project Fails in China: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8_A09d0g-g&t=25s
Inside China's Accelerating Bid for Chip Supremacy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUfjtKtkS2U
Prasun,
1- what indigenous air defence gun is under consideration for IA which got cleared by the cabinet committee? upgraded L70's or Rientmettal skyshield?
2-Why does theIa not have interest in a 120-150 km range pinaka ?
http://idrw.org/no-request-for-the-development-of-extended-range-pinaka-mrls-sources/ .. is there any alternative thought eg enhanced smerch?
3 - P75I cleared- who has the best chance ? Naval grp? will it be the new SMX design or a super kalavari?
4 your views on J&K admin sacking known militancy supporters from govt jobs
Prasoon if FMBT will be foreign and not inhouse designed, does this mean the end of tunnel for Arjun MBT after 10 years or so?
Regards
Kunal
PrasunDa,
1. INS Chakra is being sent back to Russia. The next SSN on lease from Russia is slated to arrive 5 years from now.
Why this huge gap of 5 years? Russia has several SSNs. Couldn't they spare another, right now?
2. Will the indigenous SSN that India is developing join the Navy by 2030?
Thank You
How come B1 bomber and f15 /f16 are used as Close air support role inplace of A10 as shown in this video though McCain doesn't seem to agree to it
https://youtu.be/_up7IHd3LDs
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/conflict-with-china-a-high-likelihood-says-top-australian-general-20210503-p57ogv.html#comments
Mr. Prasun
It seems to me that the appreciation of the threat from China was present even before the the pandemic.
In the above article we have Australia's appreciation.
In our case the Chinese accuse us of expanded infrastructure buildup near LAC since 2019 and the Chinese displeasure over removal of Article 370(including statements over Aksai Chin).
After 2017 Doklam standoff and Wuhan Reset our kowtowing to China on many issues but our increased outreach to Quad in 2019 after 370 etc etc.
Even the Australians know no that China wants to win without fighting.
Thanks
Hi....presume the Brahmos Block 1 and Block 2 come into serious play on all fronts..
To JUST_CURIOUS: 1) What indigenous AAA? The MoD statement clearly says it will be in thje BUY & MAKE Category, i.e. an imported solution to be licence-built in India:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E3B_sNfVUAA7-vV?format=jpg&name=large
2) Some R & D work on it is underway, but it will be a totally different vehicle. 3) Naval Group should be the preferred choice & there was no need for any competitive bidding. Instead, it should have been a G-to-G strategic tie-up. 4) It is the correct step, but radicalism cannot be terminated for as long as the UT administration continues to tolerate political sermons being given every Friday after the Khutbaah in every mosque.
To UNKNOWN/KUNAL: Yes, I’m afraid so. After investing time & money on creating the CVRDE & all the related industrial infrastructure & eco-system, opting for foreign readymade solutions is an absolute criminal offense & national disgrace. Meanwhile, here is an excellent example of how Ladakh's bio-diversity is being successfully exploited through the rigour of science for developing a variety of medicinal applications:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTo6K36XuMQ
Similar activities at Himachal Pradesh's Lahaul & Spity Valleys:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKH5YCkDA-Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CY9lLExToEc
To VIKRAM GUHA: 1) There will be no leasing of another SSGN. Nor does Russia have any to spare. This video clearly explains the troubles Russia is having on upgrading its existing Project 971 SSGNs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMeHzYkwrv4&t=232s
In any case, INS Arihant & INS Arighat are now available while the 3rd SSGN will also be available in another 3 years. So, 3 SSGNs are enough to patrol the IOR until the arrival of the six dedicated SSNs.
To AMIT BISWAS: Why not? For as long as the adversary as any meaningful AAA network to bring into play, even a C-47 Dakota or An-32B can be employed for close air-support. Meanwhile, this is getting more & more interesting:
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science/article/3136078/china-military-uses-ai-track-rapidly-increasing-ufos
To SANJAY: The appreciation was available from 1887 itself, as explained here:
https://forceindia.net/cover-story/journey-74-years/
Nechiphu Tunnel Construction in Arunachal Pradesh:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfRVoAITp0o
Some good info here
https://twitter.com/_alice_evans/status/1367019968097886208?s=20
Prasunda,
Now Chakra 2 is returned to Russia. Few years back I had seen Chakra 2 at Vizag harbour. She is having a cylindrical ( something looks like fighter aircraft's drop tank) structure at aft above the rudder forward of propeller. Which is somewhat unique for Russian Submarines. What is the cylindrical structure ? Why it's fitted at aft ?
Best regards
Prasunda
So what now - Finish CCP? Extract Damages by making them pay War Reparations?
Or go to War, Nuke them - Nothing but ignore & isolate them while building up alternatives - India or more likely the ASEAN
But the query remains - Will this Suffice to Corner PRC, indict the CPC? Finish CCP? -
How an Indian scientist couple traced origin, course of COVID-19 https://www.theweek.in/theweek/cover/2021/06/03/how-an-indian-scientist-couple-worked-to-trace-origin-course-of-covid-19.html
& Indian science teacher/researcher,
Spanish consultant, Russian-Canadian entrepreneur, French data analyst
anonymous people
https://youtu.be/OoRMut9BjGc
(English subtitles)
https://youtu.be/V7Khyjpymug
So short of fighting PLA on the Tibetan plateau or deep inside PRC how do you get the CCP to get out of Tibet & Xingiang short of a regime change which is as unlikely as any investigation conclusively proving much less getting the CCP to admit guilt or even the WHO to condemn PRC in public & isolate it!
https://youtu.be/jYGSyBhQ0ww
Sir, Trump is calling for the world to unite and demand reparations from China over damage caused by Wuhan virus
https://twitter.com/bennyjohnson/status/1401349247828692994?s=20
This is why he should have won. He would have said the same thing with power and authority if he was still the President of US. But with Biden and his radical leftist handlers in WH, CCP has nothing to worry about.
And look at this dangerous moron. He's friends with Khalistanis and also CCP. He was grilled about his govt's close connections with China and he responded by throwing accusations of racism.
https://twitter.com/mrctv/status/1399402795242033167?s=02
EU is already sucking China's dick. Putin won't say a word of course. And our Mr 56 inch can't even save his own party workers in Bengal from Mamata, let alone taking on China.
More than 3 million people have died because of a biological weapon. And those who unleashed it upon us are getting away scot-free. Hopeless situation.
Bro is their any Indian defence establishment working on indigenous ram jet powered artillery shells?
The smerch has 90km range, is there anyway India planning to build 240mm + 150km + guided MBRL?
How capable is samyukta MK2?
To PARTHASARATHI: It is all explained in this diagram:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d1/AkulaSchema2.svg
To KAUSTAV: Yes, the CPC has to be terminated, but it has to happen just like the demise of the USSR. Because if not, then the dangers of forceful capture of Taiwan by 2049 will become an inevitability, which will further destabilise East Asia & Southeast Asia.
To SANTOSH: Once again in this thread, I’m reminding everyone that no army fires field artillery projectiles or rockets out to distances that can never be seen visually, due to the imperatives of ensuring fire-assault accuracy through accurate fire-direction coordinates. Hence, unless there is a real-time means of ensuring visual images of the targets to be hit, the target won’t be engaged. Consequently, those who are ASSUMING that procuring long-range MBRLs or artillery projectiles will result in the adversary being engaged over longer distances are being DELUSIONAL. As it is the IA is only now leasing four Heron-TPs that cannot look beyond 60km when flying at an altitude of 20,000 feet ASL.
The original plan for conventional submarines was 6 western , 6 Russian and then indigenous P76.
Is this still valid, since we now plan 18 conventional subs instead of 24 (6 P75, 6P75I and rest P76)
If L&T is busy nuke subs, where we have additional requirements, why drama of selection ?
either way instead of wasting time we could simply go for G to G ?
Regards
Venky
Prasun sir,
1- u said Arihant arighat and the third one are ssgn..does that mean india still doesn't have SSBN?we still lack third deterrent?
2-once u said that atleast 3 SSN are required to protect only one SSBN..but looking at the force level of royal Navy and french Navy,it seems they are dedicating one ssn per SSBN and one for their aircraft carrier..since both of them have 6 SSN each.does the 3ssn per SSBN still counts?
3- how many SSN are required by india to protect it's future SSBN and aircraft carriers which might be 3 and our area of concern from Malacca to Hormuz??
4- how is the noise level of ins Arihant and its sister ships compared to the ins chakra??
5-when lch is going to be ordered?
6- no news of nirbhay and pralay tests?
To VENKY: There were no such plans & the only plan pre-1998 was to have 24 submarines. By 2001 the plan was to have up to 23 SSKs (10 Type-877EKMs, four Class 209/Type-1500s & six Scorpene CM-2000s) & three SSGNs like the S-2/S-3/S-4). Of these, the Type-877EKMs will be the first to be decommissioned after their 35-year lifespan, to be followed by the four Class 209/Tye-1500 SSKs. The 12 SSKs like the six Scorpenes of Project-75 & six SSKs of Project-75I are to be the replacements. The three SSGNs can easily function as SSNs till 2030, following which the six dedicated SSNs will be required. And as time goes by & the number of nuclear-powered submarines increase (through the procurement of dedicated SSBNs like the projected S-5/S-6/S-7 family), the economies of scale will tilt the financial arguments in favour of an all nuclear-powered submarine fleet by the 2040s.
As for SSKs, since MDSL will for sure team up with France’s Naval Forces, it remains to be seen with which OEM Larsen & Toubro (L & T) will team up. While on one hand L & T already has existing industrial tie-ups with several Ruaaia-based OEMs thanks to the ongoing ATV Project, it makes financial sense for L & T to stick to such industrial partnerships for Project-75I as well, i.e. the Amur-1650. But then again, since the IN wants a PROVEN DESIGN SSK with AIP, that excludes the Amur-1650 & even the Navantia S-80. That then leaves Germany’s ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS) and South Korea’s Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering (DSME) in the fray. But since the latter is proposing a solution based on the former’s original design, it is likely that ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems will bar DSME from bidding. So, that leaves only TKMS as the only surviving possible industrial partner for L & T. But since TKMS is proposing an all-new SSK design, licence-building it will be far more expensive than MDSL building an advanced variant of the Scorpene CM-2000 since the latter already has an industrial consortium already certified by Naval Forces to licence-build various sub-systems & components, especially the DRDO/L & T-developed indigenous MAREEM AIP plug-in module. Hence, it is logical to anticipate that the MDSL-Naval Forces industrial consortium will emerge as the L-1 bidder.
Hence, for all practical purposes, it can be inferred that the Project-75I RFP evaluation process is just a stratagem being applied for obtaining a financially beneficial deal from the MDSL-Naval Forces industrial consortium that will also enable the realisation of the objectives of the futuristic Project-76 plan. So, what I have just outlined can be construed as being a HISTORY OF THE FUTURE.
To SUJIT: 1) Yes, because to date not a single SLBM as been test-fired from INS Arihant or INS Arighat. 2) What I had stated was that 3 SSNs are reqd to be on patrol at sea (in case of an all-nuclear submarine fleet) & one SSN at any time is reqd for providing flank protection for any SSBN out on patrol. 3) The IN requires at least nine SSNs, not the six now being projected. 4) They are comparable. 5) 10 for the IAF & 5 for the IA were ordered 2 years ago as LSP-series LCHs. 6) None at all. No news even about the ‘desi’ STFE being developed by GTRE.
And here are some excellent tutorials for anyone who wishes to specialise in submarine warfare & anti-submarine warfare:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcH22wOsUQ8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-3khvUtY9I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb6e_-HvBzw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpktQLQqMo8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Et5vdyF5Axs
https://youtu.be/wEUr_1ityME
https://youtu.be/93tLdaSDMI0
https://youtu.be/0yeNJLUKnMk
https://youtu.be/V8d8CY9_6mM
https://youtu.be/_S9wRl9zpw0
https://youtu.be/C4NoXPvYkyk
https://youtu.be/Fx_Nst3eOGo
https://youtu.be/-hOgs9NsrJA
https://youtu.be/C_hkcg5O7Ck
https://youtu.be/En5I_hbRaFA
https://youtu.be/_JhiwV0s7yY
https://youtu.be/QsLYRmng1BU
https://youtu.be/uRgTCrPsHr4
https://youtu.be/2hG-KTFjkeQ
https://youtu.be/FZ5qDn0KM8E
https://youtu.be/44N5Z2e_M4Y
https://youtu.be/IBxaxWQ8wdc
https://youtu.be/y-OQM1xMcNo
https://youtu.be/yRTc5YgjgzM
"So, what I have just outlined can be construed as being a HISTORY OF THE FUTURE." Like Augusta's case, you will again be marked for predicting a commonsensical outcome.
Chinese have many ucav and UAV, once they get target location, Don't u think they can launch MBRL from well outside the reach of Indian artillery?
They have 200+km range MBRL,they can be inside 100 km their territory,still they can target 60-80 km inside our territory, And since they are in standoff range we cannot do anything
How will we overcome this problem?
To DASHU: After all, someone has to guard the guardians! After all, we are not the real 'Vishwagurus'. This is from the real Vishwaguru:
https://twitter.com/BoeingDefense/status/1401876758681591813
To SANTOSH: But then you are ASSUMING that all those UAVs & UCAVs will be able to operate with impunity within India-controlled airspace. And even with GPS terminal guidance, while the first few rockets will get through, the entire MBRL Battery will be exposed to air-strikes by IAF combat aircraft firing away PGMs like Spice-2000 & SAAW-type PGMs equipped with high-explosive warheads. There are thus several counter-strike options available to India.
Hi...
(1) Any updates on the Mirage 2000 and the Mig 29 Upgrades...where are we in this now...
(2) Any news on the Jaguar Honeywell Engine upgrades...?
(3) As and when it happens...the next batch of (36?) Rafales will be of F4 Std ?
Sir why does it seem like the submarine construction program in the country is a scam. I understand that Indian designers wanted to experience the best of design philosophies from both the East and the West.
1st we went west for the Shishumar Class (HDW Type 209), we paid extra for the submarine build know how and I also understand 2 more subs were planned to be indigenously built at MDL, but as HDW got blacklisted we could not do that.
2nd we went East(Russian) for the Kilo class and we bought them off the shelf.
3rd we again went West for the scorpene class, in which we again paid extra for the indigenous manufacture and transfer of TOT and everything.
In the mean time we got the construction know how from the Russians for a SSBN that became the Arihant Class in which more amount of indigenous content was added be it design or manufacture.
So why is a country that has over 20 years of submarine building experience, has managed to design and build nuclear powered submarines with newer variants on the way, cant design and build a conventional submarine whose major technologies (eg AIP, Sonar, Metallurgy etc) have been mastered and instead wants to purchase new subs that with the fastest timeline wont enter service before 2035+????????
Wat about the satellite which have information about Indian high value target?
They can easily give location of our critical infrastructure,military and air bases , ammunition depot,radar sites etc
These will be targeted by Chinese long range MBRL.How will India counter that?
It will be very difficult for India to target these MBRL which is in standoff distance
Wat is Ur view on that?
Dear Prasun
Just like you had said in earlier threads:
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/j-k/7-923-bunkers-constructed-264595
Given these developments and the fact that the Chinese have undertaken major Infra buildup along many points and in depth areas of the LAC, what can we expect on the LOC and LAC in the short term. Reports also suggest that PLA is rotating troops regularly.
What are some of India's planned actions on both fronts? What would you like to see happening from our side.
Thanks
E-Book: 20 Reforms in 2020:
https://www.mod.gov.in/sites/default/files/MoD2RE7621.pdf
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja-HF-yw4u8
IN Inducts 2 ALH Mk.3s: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cWIaynGqIo
List of All Sunken Nuclear Submarines: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6TrAnToNZE
To SHUKANT CHATRATH: That’s because critical mistakes were made both by the NDA-1 & UPA-1 govts when they were both unable to re-open the licenced-production facilities of MDSL between the late 1990s & 2010 for additional Class 209/Type-1500 SSKs. As a result, it was only in 2018 that a domestic servicing facility for just periscopes for these SSKs could be established:
https://www.hensoldt.net/fr/nouvelles/the-indian-navy-and-hensoldt-inaugurate-a-periscope-repair-facility/
Consequently, Project-75 was implemented twice at an avoidable cost, i.e. first undertaking licenced-production of just two Class 209/Type-1500 SSKs instead of the planned eight, & then licence-producing six CM-2000 Scorpenes. Had the eight Class 209/Type-1500 SSKs been acquired back by 2010, then Project-75I would have commenced back in the previous decade itself & by now RFPs would have been released for Project-76. Instead, even Project-75 is far behind schedule & even the simulators for the SUBTICS combat management system have not been ordered so far. All sonar suites for both the Scorpene SSKs & the L & T-built SSGNs have been imported along with their fibre-glass domes.
To SANTOSH: Such facilities are based in rear-areas & therefore cannot be at the receiving end of MBRL-fired rockets. And as I had explained earlier, any MBRL Battery or Regiment of the PLAGF firing from standoff distances will easily be at the receiving end of IAF air-strikes.
To KIDDO: There will be no flare-ups in the short-term since the PA wants to focus more on the Durand Line, while the PLAGF just wants to continue digging in for the long haul. Rotation of PLAGF troops is good news because this means the troops cannot stay deployed over longer periods, which in turn prevents them for familiarising themselves with the terrain of operations & this in turn adversely affects their warfighting capabilities. Therefore, right up to 2025 the formations of the PLAGF’s South Xinjiang Military District will be kept busy by the reforms processes under which they will be re-equipped with new-generation weapons & hence they won’t be able to maintain any credible offensive posture along the LAC in Ladakh.
Prasunda,
(1) From which company will the simulators for the SUBTICS combat management system be ordered from?
(2) From which company were the sonar suites for Scorpene SSKs & the L & T-built SSGNs imported from?
Thanks
Hi Parsunji,
How much IPR do MDL holds for CM-2000 submarines?
Why are we paying royalties for AK-203 guns when 49% of IRRCL is owned by Russian companies?
What is the optimal solution for Indian Army FRCV requirement according to you?
Thanks and Regards
Hardik Thanki
Prasun da
1)Is carl gustaf mk2/mk3 a platoon level weapon in Indian army or squad/ section level?
Because in chicom army 120mm pf-98 is section level weapon.
2) Can our Mr-Sam, akash sam take out chicom guided, unguided mbrl,short rate ballistic missile?
3) Is there any plan to buy bharat forge 155/39 cal mgs?
4)when every major military moving towards 155mm howitzer why chines are buying 122 mm howitzers?
What could be the reasons for india not trying/failing to design and make indigenous submarines based on the TOT absorbed from HDW and DCNS/Navantia
Any info and documents about the what and how these passive radar systems work
https://youtu.be/36N_6mC_qrc
Do India and IAF have ability to search,track and attack standalone MBRL?
Bro wat is Ur view on self protection jammer ASPJ for SU 30 mki which drdo is working on?
Is it based on GaN or GAns modules?
To SUJOY MAJUMDAR: The sonar suite for the SSGNs came from CENTRAL RESEARCH INSTITUTE "MORPHISPRIBOR"
http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/naval-systems/shipborne-electronic-systems/mgk-400/
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D8mTatMUYAIHbOx.jpg:large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EoY5hMhVQAApIEK?format=jpg&name=medium
Those for the Scorpene SSK were all listed here:
http://trishul-trident.blogspot.com/2017/12/ins-kalvari-s-21-ssks-on-board-systems.html
SUBTICS CMS, although developed by THALES, is sold by NAVAL GROUP.
BTW, the Caucasian buffoons have only now discovered this:
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2021/06/first-sighting-of-new-stealth-fighter-for-chinese-navy-aircraft-carrier/#prettyPhoto
I had detailed it all back in 2019 itself after receiving confirmation from Rosoboronexport State Corp of Russia about China’s contract signature for importing the turbofans for the naval variant of the FC-31, all of which was detailed here:
http://trishul-trident.blogspot.com/2018/07/plan-ditches-j-15-h-mrca-opts-for-fc-31.html
To HARDIK THANKI: Not a single IPR is held by any India-based company for any component of the Scorpene. All are held by French OEMs. Royalties always have to be paid for any licence-built hardware or liquidware, be it an AK-203 or COVISHIELD vaccine. The optimal FRCV solution will have to be similar to the Russian solutions, but only from a conceptual standpoint. From the design standpoint, the performance parameters of an Indian FRCV will be totally different due to the different kinds of battlefields in which the Indian FRCV will have to fight & survive.
To SARATHI: 1) That depends entirely on the type of fighting unit, i.e. whether it is just ordinary infantry or special forces. 2) No, but the Akash-NG & even the QR-SAM can. 3) No. 4) The 155mm howitzers are for indirect fire-support from rear-areas, whereas the 122mm howitzers are meant for immediate fire-support & even in the direct-fire mode, since (as I had previously explained) neither the PLAGF nor the PLAAF have the kind of combat aircraft or attack helicopters capable of either operating at high-altitudes or delivering standoff PGMs from such platforms. Thus, every assaulting PLAGF fighting unit needs to be self-sufficient in terms of firepower delivery from ground-based weapons.
To AMIT BISWAS: The Class 209/Type-1500 SSK could not be fully indigenised or modified due to HDW being a hot political potato, while for the Scorpene SSK licenced-production there was no ToT involving transfer of any design data. Only engineering & fabrication expertise was transferred by Naval Group to MDSL.
Passive Surveillance System:
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-h9xtcEuvnUs/XG0rVx_i0GI/AAAAAAAAQr0/Gu7VPJALFu4XHt-VwWoynrzB-02_RHJMwCLcBGAs/s1600/Passive%2BRadar%2Bfrom%2BBEL-THALES.jpg
PLAGF’s Z-11B LUH: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6KsjybsT6Q
Cant we use upcoming 5G networks in border areas as passive radar systems to detect these intrusions from PAF? I have seen many youtube videos suggesting use of the same to use for stealth and low flying objects in cluttered environment...
Also su 30 having truck size RCS is it possible to have some kind of podded FO based decoy system for self protection...
Any type of such systems available/considered for Mirage 2K I/TI programes??
Btw ye Passive surveillance system kaam kaise karta hai ..i mean brochure ya video se technique samjah naa aave
To SANTOSH: MBRLs of armies never operate in standalone manner, unlike those used by terrorists. Hence, the deployment footprint of any MBRL Battery will be detectable by any combat aircraft equipped with AESA-MMRs, such as the Jaguar IS/DARIN-3 & Rafale. All data on the DARE-developed ASPJ pods can be found in the Aero India 2017 Expo thread.
To AMIT BISWAS: It is known as a passive surveillance system, and not a radar as such as it does not emit any RF signal. Here are some examples & an explanation:
https://www.telephonics.com/soft-gate/gated-assets/uploads/39897-TC-AN_UPR-4V-Antenna-Brochure_012821.pdf
https://www.patriagroup.com/download/muscl2021pdf
https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/aerospace/case-study/passive-radar-activists
This explains what a passive surveillance radar is:
http://icas.org/ICAS_ARCHIVE/ICAS2014/data/papers/2014_0709_paper.pdf
All Su-30MKIs are capable of carrying EL/M-8222 ASPJ pods. Only decoy systems they have are dispensable chaff & flare.
1)Does India have the capability to execute a Counterforce campaign against China & Pakistan?
2)How many Brahmos & Agni-5 missiles have been inducted by IA?
3)Do we have the capability to wage cyber & electronic war against China or will China be succesful in executing its startegy of winning 'local informationised war' against India?
4)Hypothetically, if China-Pak jointly wage a 2 front war today - Will Indian Military be able to stalemate them & prevent loss of territory?
5)Is India's nuclear detterence capable enough to deter a full-scale war? Why doesn't India abolish its NFU doctrine & induct 1000s of TNWs for use in war?
6)Does India have thermonuclear weapons capable of producing over 2 MT yield.
7)Does India have MIRVs? Is it developing nuclear capable hypersonic glide vehicles which can be used as MIRV like Avangard?
8)By when will Brahmos - 2 (Hypersonic variant) be ready? Will it be nuclear capable?
9)Force Editor - Pravin Sawhney Ji claims that China can defeat India in 7-10 days & capture Arunachal Pradesh, Ladakh, J & K. India won't be able to use nukes. Is it correct?
*(Sorry for long list of questions).
RAJAT
To RAJAT: Most of your questions are answered by this latest assessment:
https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R46808
Prasunda,
The CRS report you linked claims 4 PLA KIA in Galwan as opposed to 20 of our KIA. Is it not true that PLA lost 40 KIA or so (TASS reported 45) ? Why this discrepancy?
Kritavarma
To KRITAVARMA: There is no discrepancy at all since the CRS Report quotes only officially admitted casualties by both sides. Hence, opposing claims or third-party claims are not mentioned.
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