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Friday, July 15, 2011

India’s Northern Border Roadways: A Shocking National Shame

Between 1972 and 2009, India’s successive ruling political establishments had become complacent as far as China was concerned and the former’s Pakistan-centric attitude caused India to develop some sort of amnesia and a sense of smugness regarding the fact that China was, is and will continue to be India’s principal adversary in the years to come. But the country’s military leadership was all along aware of China’s hectic efforts to improve road, rail and oil pipeline infrastrucrure in the Tibet Autonomous Region (TAR) throughout the 1990s as part of a well-crafted strategy to taking a pro-active stance against India along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) whenever Beijing desired. Since Tawang in Arunachal Pradesh provides the shortest transportation route between India and Tibet, in 1980 the then Chief of the Army Staff, Gen K V Krishna Rao presented to the then Prime Minister of India, Mrs Indira Gandhi, a strategic military infrastructure development plan—codenamed Operation Falcon—which was immediately approved by the Ministry of Defence (MoD) and which Beijing took notice of. Operation Falcon called for converting the patchy forward presence of the Indian Army along the LAC into a heavy forward deployment in an arc-like disposition starting from Turtok and Shyok in Ladakh all the way to the India-Tibet-Myanmar tri-junction. Arunachal Pradesh, North Sikkim and the trans-Ladakh Range were to receive special attention. The deployment was to be undertaken over a 15-year period in which the Army’s forward build-ups would keep pace with infrastructure development along with viable lines of communications. The only political term of reference given by Mrs Indira Gandhi for Operation Falcon was to ensure that in a future war with China, Tawang must not fall again as it did in 1962. Regarding the operational stance, the Indian Army HQ and its Eastern Command HQ felt that the Army’s Divisional formations should be sited in a manner based on the lessons of the 1962 Sino-India war that were learnt at great costs. Instead of going through the sterile debate of holding the Se La and Bomdi La lines in strength, the whole mass of deployed formations was to be pushed forward, with Tawang being the centre-of-gravity for the Kameng District, and Walong for the Lohit District. It was this very stance that was adopted by Army HQ in 1986 during the Sumdorong Chu crisis, and till this day it remains the operational stance. Unfortunately, between 1988, on the eve of the then Indian Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi’s visit to Beijing, and 2003, when the then Indian Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee visited Beijing and sought a resolution to the border issue through the appointment of special representatives, Operation Falcon was unceremoniously abandoned to appease China. Between 2003 and 2008, New Delhi dithered on providing the quantum of support to Operation Falcon without angering China. Ironically, as New Delhi remained comatose, Beijing made full use of these years to construct excellent border domination-specific military infrastructure all along the 4,056km-long disputed LAC. It was only in the wake of the 26/11 terror attacks in Mumbai that New Delhi finally woke up to the PLA’s threat. The issue debated then was given China’s track record, what mischief will it make along the LAC in case of even a limited high-intensity war between India and Pakistan in future. It was then that the Indian Army HQ finally convinced the Govt of India that Chinese military support to Pakistan would no longer remain covert. Thus, in early 2009, for the very first time in independent India, the MoD issued a written directive to the three armed services HQs authorising them to acquire capabilities for waging a two-front war against China and Pakistan. What this implied was that full political support would be extended to the three armed services to enhance their requisite capabilities.  
By 2005, after India had realised that China was 20 years ahead of her when it came to improving border transportation infrastructure, the Govt of India tasked the Border Roads Organisation (BRO) to fast-track the construction of a large number of roads. It, however, took another three years for the BRO to make any headway since it was not too sure of what was required and how to go about mobilising such resources. Execution of works for building new arterial roads at the ground-level commenced only in 2008 after the Govt of India promised to allocate higher levels of funding (US$1.086 billion for this year and set to increase by 12% per annum over the next 10 years). Presently, the BRO is executing 17 projects which are divided into task-forces that are further sub-divided into Road Construction Companies (RCC), workshops, stores, and supply and transport convoys. Its manpower strength is 37,000 as against a sanctioned strength of 42,000. The BRO is presently upgrading all existing General Staff roads into National Highway Double Lane (NHDL) specifications, while all new roads (608km of them being along the LAC) are being built to NHDL or Enhanced Class 9 standard. Initially, a three-phase plan was envisaged, which included a short-term timeline by 2012, medium-term timeline by 2017 and long-term timeline by 2022. These timelines have since been consolidated into two phases so that they are in sync with the Army HQ-based Military Operations Directorate’s long-term perspective plans (LTPP). Accordingly, LTPP-1 will be completed by 2012, while LTPP-2 will reach fruition by 2022. LTPP-1 will take the roads from the hinterland to about 30km aerial distance (or 60km ground distance) to the LAC, while LTPP-2 would connect the passes while the laterals would come up to enable inter-valley connectivity—required for switching the deployed ground forces.
The BRO has been mandated to fast-track 73 select border roads along the LAC by moving 61 of its units to Jammu & Kashmir, seven units to Himachal Pradesh, 33 units to Uttarakhand, 46 units to Arunachal Pradesh, and 21 units to Sikkim. A majority of the arterial roads are expected to be completed by 2013, with work progressing well on 39 roads for which 25% of the BRO’s annual budget has been allocated. The major impediments, however, remain obtaining clearances from the Ministry of Environment & Forestry, and wildlife conservation authorities; and the task of stabilising the mountain slopes. Thus far, 63% of work on 27 roads in Arunachal Pradesh and 12 in Ladakh have been completed. To expedite construction activity, the BRO has begun inducting crawler rock drilling equipment, and constructing pre-engineered bridges and inter-locked pre-cast concrete block pavements.



In Jammu & Kashmir, the BRO’s Chief Engineer (CE) Project VIJAYAK has been tasked to construct and maintain roads along the Srinagar-Leh axis, Kargil sector and the alternate lateral road being built in the hinterland for better connectivity. This will allow CE Project HIMANK to accelerate construction activities in eastern Ladakh from Chushul to Daulat Beg Oldie (the areas lying north and north-east of Leh), with completion envisaged by 2022. Presently, a 364km-long motorable road is being built from Leh to Daulat Beg Oldie, with 174km of the road having been completed thus far. It is scheduled for completion by 2015. In Himachal Pradesh, CE DEEPAK, which was earlier responsible for Himachal Pradesh, Punjab and Uttarakhand, is now being tasked to build the two arterial roads in this sector right up to the LAC by 2016. In Uttarakhand, CE Shivalik is hard at work to construct roads along all three valleys leading right up to the LAC. However, work activity has slowed down considerably due to the delayed clearances from the Union Ministry for Environment & Forestry and the completion date has now been targetted for 2022. In Sikkim, CE SWASTIK was reinvoked from suspended animation and is now constructing an alternate road to Gangtok and nmorthern Sikkim and also roads within northern Sikkim through both the Lachen and Lachung axis leading up to the LAC, primarily for facilitating the speedy deployment of armoured vehicles and field artillery assets to the Kerang plateau. Completion dates for these projects is 2015. To this end, all the bridges from Siliguri to Gangtok and thereafter from Gangtok to Chatten along the existing North Sikkim Highway were upgraded to Class 40 in 2008, along with temporary works to improve the turning radius. In LTPP-2, all bridges will be constructed to permanent specifications. In addition, all roads within Sikkim are being upgraded to NHDL specifications to enable smooth induction of Smerch-M and Pinaka MBRLs along with BrahMos TELs, with work being targetted for completion by 2016.
In Arunachal Pradesh, all roads are being upgraded to NHDL specifications to enable smooth induction of Smerch-M and Pinaka MBRLs along with BrahMos TELs. The bridges too are being upgraded to permanent Class 40 specifications. In addition, an alternate route to Tawang is under construction from Bhalukpong via Charduar. In the Subansari and Siyom valleys, the roadway has proceeded well past Along and should be completed by 2018, though bridge construction will be completed only by 2020. Along the Kibuthu axis, the bridge at Brahmakund was completed last year and another bridge is under construction at Digaru. Also, a rail bridge is being built at Dibrugarh across the Brahmaputra. Another bridge at Pasighat has already been completed. The National Highways 52 and 37 running along and north and south banks of the Brahmaputra are now being joined up at the extreme eastern part of Arunachal Pradesh in order to ensure additional flexibility in the switching of ground forces between the valleys and trans-Brahmaputra riverine movement. Project management of all such activities in Arunachal Pradesh is under CE VARTAK (taking charge of the western part), CE UDAYAK (central part) and CE ARUNANK (eastern part). The target is to connect all district HQs with NHDL-specification roads by 2016. A 1,554km-long trans-Arunachal Highway from Tawang to Tirap to connect all the valleys is also being implemented, as are a four-lane highway to link Itanagar with Guwahati, and 32km of railway line from Harmuti to Itanagar. The timeframe for all roads to reach the LAC is 2022. . The new roads leading to outposts such as Kibithu (7km from the LAC), Anini, Ziro, Tuting and Menchuka) have in recent years brought down the dependence on air logistics operations (conducted by the IAF’s Eastern Air Command) in the region. Currently, only around 14 out of the 100-odd designated Drop Zones (DZ) are operated. Air maintenance is undertaken with an elaborate network of ‘playing card’-sized DZs (some as small as 700 x 300 feet since there is just not enough space in the sloping higher mountain reaches), Advanced Landing Grounds (ALG) and around 250 helipads (of the 700 available). This elaborate network of DZs (some like Tawang, Tato, Bhawani and Yapik in Arunachal Pradesh are close to the LAC), ALGs, and helipads are presently the lifelines of both military personnel and the civilian population living in Arunachal Pradesh.

In Arunachal Pradesh, the Indian Army’s troops are conscious of the three tactical advantages of the opposing PLA’s Brigade-sized Border Guard Regiments. Firstly, the Chinese side has proper gravel roads right up to the LAC. The state of road connectivity on both sides of the LAC is graphically and starkly illustrated at the Bum La border meeting place. The PLA has deliberately avoided making ‘black-top’ roads since the gravel allows better water drainage during the monsoons, and it also puts pressure on India to not make any ‘black-top’ roads on her side. In any case, the PLA has the capability to easily construct a 45km-long ‘black-top’ road in 90 days. The PLA’s Construction Corps workforce is inclusive and highly disciplined. Secondly, the PLA has a psychological advantage over its Indian counterpart since it is under no pressure to maintain round-the-clock vigil. The PLA Border Guard’s force levels in forward positions are inversely proportional to those of Indian troops. For instance, in Tawang, the PLA’s 2 Border Guard Regiment, based about 40km away at Tsona Dzong is quite content with the usage of a wide variety of tactically networked remotely-controlled surveillance systems, something which the Indian Army presently lacks. Between its Regimental HQ and the defensive positions at specific and sensitive places, the Regiment has built barren flat ground patches to seve as heli-pads for ferrying in heliborne rapid-reaction forces whenever required. The Regimental HQ is also well-connected to Lhasa via an all-weather motorway as well as an oil pipeline.—Prasun K. Sengupta

86 comments:

Anonymous said...

All I can see roads under construction. What do you expect after land slide?

Anonymous said...

oh lord, they are much better than i thougt. ofcourse it is better than many of the roads connecting our interiors
jokes apart, this means we are doing some sort of construction. i read that we didnt build good roads to borders because it makes it easy for an invading army to come to interior easily.

when thinking with my (may be stupid) logic it has some sense, with out a proper defence preparedness how are we going to defend inland forget the borders where the chinese stray as if it was gifted as dowry.

i beleive we should have a very well maintained connectivity, may not be nearer to borders, to NE states and Ladakh which can be kept open even in enemy attack, while concentrated repelling attack can be done incase of invasion to mainland. this plus a very good scattered defence base in asom or nagaland can be utilized for countering an attack.

we hear two divisions are raised for NE, it will be very good if you give a prospects for them (of course while not leaking info to enemies) so that some good general listening will put his effort to better it.

there was a talk about getting connected to Bay of bengal through sittwe port of myanmar, is there any progress on that front, last heard that chinese are developing that port for port of call for PLAN

Anonymous said...

India should learn from China to build roads, and better roads to strategic locations.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Anon@2.37AM: Those are not roads under construction, but tracks which are now being converted into two-lane roads (to be completed by 2022). Even in the case of tracks, one must stabilise the mountain slopes, which has not been done, hence the lansslides.

To Anon@2.51AM: You're far too modest! (LoL). The Chinese are not developing Sittwe Port, but a port further down south, which also has its own airport, called Kyaukphyu. PLAN vessels due to make 'port calls' there will be intelligence-gathering vessels capable of monitoring Indian ballistic/cruise missile test-firings out of ITR Chandipur, Orissa and Suryalanka in Andhra Pradesh. The DRDO better start relocating the 'interim' ITR to a permament test range (PTR) somewhere along the western seaboard. Imagine the DRDO till now not even having permanent missile test-firing ranges!!!

Anonymous said...

sir what is the status of the cl 20 explosive drdo made some 6mnths ago....??

are they planing to use it on any munition ??
has a large scale production started....??coz that wud bring the cost down which is it prohibitive factor as of now...

it wud really usefull on smaller munition have small warheads like atgms and tank rounds , even artillery rounds wud much more powerfull....

Anonymous said...

sir any word about the 155mm howitzer under dev by drdo , bharat forge and L&T ??

Anonymous said...

Dear Sir

We have to keep the faith in the Govt and the armed forces

We should not be too negative

We have limited resources and an INFINITE number of things to do

The very fact that our Enemies have NOT DARED to attack us and take Arunachal AND Kashmir speaks about our REAL strength

Similarly when it comes to DRDO the Salaries that are paid to them have improved only after Sixth Pay commission

Today there is a news about DRDO attrition rate coming down

So lets hope for the best

The Internal security THREATS are MUCH bigger than external threats

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Anon@11.20AM: The CL-20s are now entering bulk production, starting with gravity bombs.

To Anon@11.51AM: No 155mm howitzer of any type is being developed by the DRDO or anyone else in India. Why? Because the Indian Army wants 155mm/52-cal howitzers while the DRDO is saying it can try developing only 155mm/45-cal solutions. See the disconnect? And DRDO is not even bothered to ask the Indian Navy if it too requires 155mm/52-cal naval guns for its future warship acquisitions! That's typical of the DRDO--not doing its homework properly.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Anon@12.48PM: What do you mean? The Chinese already took whatever it wanted to in Aksai Chin way back in 1962 and are now claiming the Tawang Tract in Arunachal Pradesh as well! At the same time it is supporting Pakistan's claim over J & K. And you want Indian citizens to be more patient??? And who can prove that the internal security threats are much bigger than external threats? 80% of the internal threats are man-made, propped up and nurtured by vested interests, especially in the North-East. Why did the GoI wake up to the North-East'
s existence only in 2005? Haven't the states in this region been part of India since 1947?

Austin said...

Hi Prasun ,

When are you going to bring out your IMDS 2011 visit report and share what you saw out there and on IN development programs ?

Are you planning to visit MAKS 2011 ?

You had mentioned in another reply that we import 70 % of defense equipment from Russia , so isn't this figure same as 20 years back ? Does import from Israel,US,France and UK adds over and above the 70 % figure , if thats the case whats the percentage of over all import from all countries ?

Why is our import content so high considering we are indigenously making more components/systems now then we did 20 years back , is it because our over all requirement went quite high and though we make more the import has consequently increased as well hence no change in percentage of imports ?

Thanks
Austin

Anonymous said...

you missed out mentioning the rohtang tunnel, that has to be highly strategic too. have they started on that?

I also wonder why they never thought of an underground rail and/or 4 lane road tunnel under New Jalpaiguri. Or for that matter a railway upto itanagar or gangtok. Was this also scuttled due to fear of dragon pressure?

Anonymous said...

so have they solved the cost issue ??

are these cl20 warheads are going to entirely replace the current arsenal or a much smaller quantity will be made for only special missions that requre such powerful warheads

if it is true that the warheads are being replaced with cl20 based warheads then we can easily say bye to the 1000lb class bombs , lol even 500lb or even 250lb will sufficient for any type of airstrike !!!

wow more munitions per plane lighter ,smaller and more power full at the same time -- this will further lead to more range of the aircraft plus aboost in their lethalty....the list goes on and on !!!!

Anonymous said...

Sir,can you please give some info about the tungsten rod length and weight of FSAPDS amunition used in Arjun tank?
THANKS in advance.

Anonymous said...

There is a lot of apathy for the north estern states - i hate to call them by that name- and typical of us we are racist with our own population and claim racial attacks in australia.

why not we make fully grown defence base of sort of A&N some what at safe distance from chinese border. Once a full base comes up connectivity has to come naturally. building tunnels in chickens neck will cost a lot, and will be difficult to secure, that cost can be used for development of defence and later industrial complexes in 'our own' land in NE.
We do spend a lot of money in Kashmir, why neglect our own citizens in NE.
regarding militancy, every one wants to be with the winner or hero. Now our image is bad there, once we make it firm that our land our people are cared in the level of metros militancy which is also business there naturally will end. every one will love democracy if it is fledging.

but first we should rename the north east states to some good Indian name which is well in agreement with local population. the change in perception by itself can do a great deal.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Anon@7.42PM: Yes, the CL-20-based warheads will become the norm. In future wars, volume of explosive tonnage dropped will be of no relevance. Instead, accuracy of small amounts of lethal explosives dropped will be accorded primary importance. Imported PGMs equipped with tri-mode seekers will be the universal type of guided-munitions, as the DRDO is still years away from developing tri-mode seekers.

To Anon@9.41PM: You can get the info you seek from my previous blog at: http://trishulgroup.blogspot.com/2008/11/ofb-produced-mbt-ammunition.html

To Anon@12.04AM: Connectivity in the North East can be easily achieved if only the GoI first activates all 700 helipads that exist there, instead of utulising only 250 of them at the moment. Then use those helipads for aerial logistics by using helicopters like the Mi-17V-5 or Mi-26T for ferrying in raw materials, construction equipment, and pre-fabricated structures needed for road-building and laying of railway/electricity transmission lines. That is exactly how the Chinese transformed the infrastructure within Tibet.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

My dear Austin, didn’t you read my posting on the Indian Navy’s LPH programme? That was from IMDS 2011. The same goes for my previous posting regarding the through-life product support being extended by Krasny Marine Services Pvt Ltd and Rosoboronservice India Ltd for all Indian Navy assets of Russian origin. In fact, the two companies together are singularly responsible for the reason why the Navy, unlike the IAF, is not facing any kind of spares shortages. Now they are investing in flight simulation centres for Ka-28PLs and Ka-31s, plus the carrier battle group simulation facility whose arrival will precede that of INS Vikramaditya. Other than these, the main topic of discussion this time was the forthcoming upgrade of the three Project 15 DDGs and Project 17A FFG programme. All this will appear in the August issue of FORCE. I myself was engaged in gathering data for a comparative analysis on the aircraft carrier acquisition programmes (from Russia and Ukraine) of China and India.
I will be attending MAKS 2011.
In terms of volume, the import content from Russia will actually surpass the 70% mark once the FGFA and MRTA programmes are taken into account. In US$ terms the US remains in pole position due to the P-8I, C-130J-30 and C-17A contracts. Again in US$ terms the supplier of the M-MRCAs (which I suspect will be the Eurofighter consortium) will stand next to the US. Israel, France and the UK will follow.
The import content remains high due to the cyclical nature of force modernisation schedules. One must note that India’s military-industrial infrastructure is still incipient compared to those of France, the UK and Israel. On top of that the domestic R & D efforts are in a dysfunctional state because the DRDO and the three armed services are not sitting together under an integrated MoD (which I also explained in my previous posting). In addition, there’s no articulated vision forthcoming from the GoI for the development of India’s military-industrial infrastructure within fixed timeframes, as a result of which defence spending remains condemned as non-plan expenditure. As a result of all of the above, the GoI has from time to time played havoc by resorting to ad hoc procurements and arrogantly in its all-knowing wisdom refused the offers of weapons co-development from countries like France since the mid-1970s. What the Russians began offering India a decade ago (for co-developing the BrahMos, MRTA, ATV and FGFA) was in fact offered by France 35 years ago! Several strategic miscalculations were made by successive Indian govts, leading to the stage India is in today. But the greatest fraud perpetrated against the Indian taxpayer was the persistent propaganda on so-called ToT since the mid-1960s every time a licenced-assembly line was opened in India, when in reality it was just screwdriver technologies that were handed down to India by the Europeans and the former Soviet Union. And that is the very reason why 99.9% of bloggers concerned with Indian military developments still falsely believe that ToT implies the transfer of design and manufacturing know-how!!! The average Indian mindset has thus been totally poisoned by such absurd propaganda.

To Anon@6.55PM: I did not mention it because the BRO outsources all tunneling projects, since it has only about 7 of its engineers who have been trained in tunneling. As I had explained earlier, before early 2009 there was no sense of urgency displayed by successive Indian governments to match China’s build-up of border transportation infrastructure all along the LAC.

Mr. Ra said...

The Himalayas are not rocky mountains but have been built by raising of the fragile earth materials. So the maladies of landslides and soil erosion are rampant over there. Hence BRO must be appreciated for all its efforts. Even then it is still not possible to outsmart the Sino's in this matter at present.

So to balance the equations we should built Vietnam styles of traps on our side at anticipated and vulnerable places where smaller or larger columns of invading Sino's can get delayed or trapped and left to their fate.

Obviously the Sino's bridges and rail-road junctions shall be the primary targets of our stand-off missiles along with their nearest airports.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Mr RA: Both sides have painfully learnt the lessons from the 1962 war and are unlikely to engage in infantry-led assaults. Instead, heavy utilisation of long-range artillery assets will likely take place. On the Indian side, while the Smerch-M and Pinaka MBRLs are available, the Pinaka is being employed in the absence of adequate 155mm howitzers. This anomaly will be rectified once the LW-155 ultralightweight howitzers start arriving in two years' time. Incidentally in 1987 when the first batch of Bofors-built FH-77Bs were shipped to India from Sweden, they were straightaway ferried to Tawang and deployed there. Where India now scores very badly is in the area of tactical ballistic/cruise missiles equipped with tactical nuclear warheads. While China has them and could use them against dug-in Indian Army formations in Arunachal Pradesh and Sikkim, India nas yet does not have them in deployed mode. The BrahMos being a non-nuclear weapon, is therefore imperative for India to begin deploying tactical nuclear warhead-equipped Shaurya missiles ASAP. It was the absence of such missiles that led to the Indian Army giving up all hope of militarily evicting the intruding PLA soldiers from Sumdorong Chu in 1987, a situation which continues to prevail till this day.

Anonymous said...

Prasun Da, after constructing all these roads, will IA be able to transport Arjuns and T-90 tanks by road to LAC?
Would III,IV,XXXIII,XIV corps operate brigade level armoured formations in future after these roads are completed?

Anonymous said...

sir is drdo working on cl20 ased propellents ??

why arn't the photos of the arjun mk2 released yet ??

what is the reason that still instead of buying more and sph and spm IA is still inclined to buying towed howitzers ?? the only region where sph's face problems are mountainous regions for which e can buy the ulh's , why all of them have to be towed ?? we can only buy the no.s that are needed for the mountainous regions , ~400 no.s should suffice the need so why all of them have to be towed (i guess IA is planning to buy 1400 towed howitzers )

Austin said...

Thanks Prasunda for your detailed response , I did read your post on LPH program ... I just hope IN does the selection as quickly as possible and one of the SY can build it. You would be surprised to know and perhaps aware of the fact that it took the russian just 1 and half year from intention to purchase and signing Mistral deal in 2+2 proposal. I just hope we can do this quickly and dont ponder over the next 5 years which one to purchase and buy. Mistral certaily looks to me better but it will cost the most. SoKo one should be the cheapest to buy.

Krasny Marine Services Pvt Ltd seems to be a good way to retain IN skills for building and maintaining Russian warship long after the people who worked decades on such projects and IN spend many millions on training etc have left the service , a very useful way to keep ex high skilled personal gainfully employed , some smart thinking by the service. I am looking forward for the August issue of FORCE on your IMDS vist report.

Thats a good point on $ value of purchase versus volumes , so if Volumes goes the Russian would still make up for bulk of the purchase but from dollar value pov the American would be leading.

What do you make out HAL chairmans interview to force on MMRCA will be 80 % made indigenously from indian sourced component , 80 % is a very decent figure for an imported fighter.

Are you aware on the percentage of indiginous content for the HAL built MKI and how much each HAL built MKI cost ? Why is there an escalation of cost to ~ $100 million for the next 40 MKI HAL will build becuase of the upgrades or becuase these are special types for SFC as is being speculated ?

yeah the TOT part is exaggerated I was speaking with French engine-maker during AeroIndia and he mentioned to me that more then 70 % components for indigenous Shakti were imported and less than 30 % were manufactured locally by HAL.

Mr. Ra said...

Thanx I agree with your reply. India should prepare hundreds or more of tactical nukes for the oncoming situations.

Anonymous said...

Dude shiv aroor is saying that prahar missile has six missile configuration.....plz clarify...why cant these drdo gorillas release some decent pic of this missile...they cant understand the prob of military enthusiasts....

fcuk said...

india has enough manpower and money to get the job done in 5 yrs, but lacks willpower. why can't they just take all those scumbag kashmiri stone pelters, fit radio-collars or implant microchips on them and make them work on those roads for a living? Just like how Chinese have "reeducation thru labour" camps, we can implement the same. We can even bring in some from Tihar too, including Kanimozhi and A.Raja. Ramalinga Raju can be given a managerial position.
Instead BRO is using some housewives.. what a shame..

joydeep ghosh said...

@Prasun da

I think someone feels you are hitting below waitline, see this

"Colonel JitendraVyas said...

Mr Prasun,

In your first comment you mentioned that the accuracy of SS-150 is dismissal and the system is cumbersome and so on.

Me being witnessed a trial launch,I assure you that the accuracy of the system has been brought down to 4-6mts.Other than the system being a liquid fueled,its still our best choice to take down the enemy targets with a wide variety of targets.Been using the system fora long time and having tested it multiple times,I will place my bet on using this one. All the inventory of 150`s which are ofcourse a huge number running into a number of hundreds has to be expelled to make room for new inventories.
On the other hand you cant compare a system like prithvi to any other contemporary one. Prithvi lies in an entirely different block. IF accuracy is one factor, then its anti-ABM is another factor.

Having been sitting on a huge pile of prithvi inventory, every new technology that goes into the next gen long range missiles is being tested on prithvis first.Before the anti-boost phase ABM system was put onto A-III its been tested on Prithvis. Just like all other INS and warhead detonation mechanisms and so on.
We just have to accept that with no prithvi, there is no further development of missile technology in India.

And regarding your unresearched comment of Prahaar,that its an indigenised LORA, you are completely wrong at it again. It is a spin-off AAD.While LORA is a quasi ballistic missile, Prahaar is not.

My sinciere advice is that, next time when you have to post, do research on it.Just dont post whatever pops in your mind"

thanks and reply

Joydeep Ghosh

Anonymous said...

Heavy earth moving machinery like the ones used in opencast mining is missing in BRO's operations,
manual labor will be painfully slow especially carving road stretches along hill sides. Mi-26 class Helis can be used to ferry parts which can be assembled at a base site, assembling is the way they do in open cast mines, Russian heli leasing companies can be engaged to increase the sortie rates.

In a democratic setup, the political term for "reeducation thru labor" is community service, it should be used as well since when they build it they know destroying it is a conscience question, after all watching
ones labor of 5 years wiped out in a day gets anybody's goat. Kashmir railway should use this so that destroying railway property is not attempted since its a investment /ownership question.

On the railway line in this terrain, some of the metros in US do have standard gauge based light rail system traversing in urban metro areas which have very tight turns overlayed on a traffic
intersection, Indian railways can introduce special rolling stock for these lines, good for tourism too

Anyways, here is a link for the new electric locomotives the Chinese are inducting, good for hauling across steep grades
http://www.mainpump.com/news/railroad/1701.htm

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Anon@10.45AM: In the north-east as well as Sikkim both medium and heavy MBTs are totally ruled out, while in eastern Ladakh, T-72-type MBTs can be and have been deployed. What is reqd is an inventory (about 400)of light tanks (both wheeled and tracked) equipped with 120mm smoothbore cannons or 105mm rifled bore cannons that can be deployed throughout the three northern theatres.

To Anon@10.51AM: Your first two questions can only be answered by the DRDO. Regarding 155mm/52-cal towed howitzers and why not motorised/tracked SPHs, all I can say is that mindsets take a long time to change. Also, only after the road/rail transportation infrastructure improves along the northern b orders can SPHs be effectively employed. The UFHs will be heli-transportable as well and once the heavylift helicopters are acquired by the IAF, then the UFHs will become heli-portable assets. Meanwhile, the competitive bidding for supplying motorised SPHs will soon get underway and one should expect swifter results compared to the saga of towed 155mm/52-cal howitzers.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Austin Da: As I see it, selecting the optimum LPH design will not be time-consuming. Before the end of next year that task is likely to be completed. The problem starts when it comes to the process of contract implementation, especially if rumours are to be believed about the MoD favouring Vizag-based Hindustan Shipyards Ltd (HSL) for building the last two LPHs (as the first two are to be built abroad). I’m predicting the delay due to HSL’s lack of any prior experience in building warships of this size. Thus, while the first two LPHs may be delivered between 2016 and 2018, the latter two may be delivered only by 2020. Between the various contenders, the Mistral-BPC and Dokdo-class are the definite frontrunners, unless Navantia and Fincantieri can come up with mouth-watering offers, especially with regard to the integration of Indian Navy-nominated sensors like the distributed-array EL/M-2048 MF-STAR radars.
I must also give you credit for being the first to make a meaningful comment on the Indian Navy’s strategy of outsourcing MRO contracts to India-based private entities like Krasny Marine & Rosoboronservice. After all the chaff being unnecessarily hurled by vested mass-media interests about the so-called lack of Russian product support, the picture does seem to become blurred and therefore I’m truly glad you’ve been able to see through all this and grasp the reality. Well done indeed! I do hope that the Army and IAF will now follow the Navy’s lead.
Regarding the claim by HAL’s CMD about 80% indigenous content in the M-MRCAs to be assembled by HAL, he was referring to only the airframe structure and its accessories, and not the engines and avionics. In fact, the M-MRCA’s licence-manufacturing process will be a mirror-image of what’s being done with the Su-30MKI (which was exhaustively explained by a FORCE interview of HAL’s GM for Nasik Division in 2008 and which you later reproduced in one of the aviation forums) whereby all the raw materials for the airframes and accessories will be 100% imported, and only their machining and rivetting will be done by HAL. The cost escalation for the additional Su-30MKIs on order stems from several factors, both production-related and operational, which are not broken down by the MoD when such figures are ‘leaked out’ by vested interests. On HAL’s side there’s the cost to be incurred by expanding its existing production base to cater to a higher volume of deliveries. But that figure is minimal compared to what the IAF will have to incur in terms of establishing the regional operating hubs for the Su-30MKIs (to add to what now exists in Pune, Barielly and Tezpur). For the new regional hubs the cost of runway resurfacing, building of temperature-controlled hangars for undertaking 1st and 2nd levels of maintenance, construction of parking hangars, costs for setting up avionics intermediate workshops, and finally the costs incurred for basing of tactical flight simulators, cockpit procedures trainers and weapons part-task trainers all have to be factored in. What I’m trying to explain is that the additional cost being talked about is not just about procuring the additional 40 aircraft, but also inclusive of the aircraft’s basing/support/training reqmts. The costs for upgrading the first 50 Su-30MKIs are totally different and come under a different category.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Anon@1.07PM: Dude, I had already clarified all that in: http://trishul-trident.blogspot.com/2011/07/more-details-emerge-about-prahaar.html

To fcuk: Your proposal would make perfect sense in the PRC and DPRK, but not in India.

To Joydeep Ghosh: My reply was posted long ago at: http://trishul-trident.blogspot.com/2011/07/here-comes-prahaarat-last.html
The problem with these imposters posing as Army personnel is that they haven’t got even the faintest clue about the Prithvi’s vulnerability as a result of its large deployment-cum-support vehicle footprints, leave alone its CEP factor. You can read more about them at: http://trishulgroup.blogspot.com/2008/10/rocket-artillery-firepower-being.html
In addition, such imposters fail to realise that guided-missile production got underway in India in the late 1960s in cooperation with France’s Aerospatiale, and ballistic missile/rocket development efforts began in the latter half of the 1970s, leading to the SLV family of rocket launch vehicles. Therefore, by claiming that “with no prithvi, there is no further development of missile technology in India”, one is totally denigrading the DRDO’s IGMDP and neglecting the attainment of core technological competencies in rocket propulsion/navigation & guidance systems by entities like ISRO and BrahMos Aerospace.

Mr. Ra said...

QUOTE>> What is reqd is an inventory (about 400)of light tanks (both wheeled and tracked) equipped with 120mm smoothbore cannons or 105mm rifled bore cannons<<

Is there any proposal/progress of the same. BTW, who can be the prospective suppliers? <<unquote

Anonymous said...

Prasun dada in the past indian army use to have a bengal regiment.It was also the first regiment raised by the british but then it was disbanded. Why do you think that happened? Are the bengalis cannot become good warriors?

Mr. Ra said...

They were found spearheading the revolution for national liberation which unfortunately failed and they were disbanded by the foreign empire.

SKINS said...

In fact, the M-MRCA’s licence-manufacturing process will be a mirror-image of what’s being done with the Su-30MKI (which was exhaustively explained by a FORCE interview of HAL’s GM for Nasik Division in 2008 and which you later reproduced in one of the aviation forums)
SIR COULD YOU PLS GIVE ME THE LINK OF THAT INTERVIEW I WAS LIKE SEARCHING FOR IT FROM A VERY LONG TIME

Anonymous said...

I PERFECTLY AGREE WITH FCUK!!! THERE ARE HEAPS OF IDIOT KASHMIRI TRAITORS WHO CAN BE PUT TO WORK AND MONITORED WITH TRACKING COLLARS!!!

Moreover the Kashmiri scum are well built and strong. They would be great for this job. Rather than them just sitting in jail and us wasting time and money torturing them.

This form of torture (make them work like how Japs did on Death Railroute) is a productive form of torture. Pushing soap water in their anus or electrocuting their cocks is just a waste of water and electricity.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Mr RA: For light tanks the proposals came from GDLS Austria, IVECO, Mowag, BAE Systems and Rosoboronexport. The reqmt was for both wheeled and tracked light tanks.

To Anon@1029PM; If I'm not mistaken the Bengal Sappers still exists as a combat engineering unit. And who says the Bengalis are not good warriors? Haven't you witnessed their bloody history both in undivided Bengal and now in both WB and Bangladesh? AFAIK with the exception of the goddesses Lakshmi and Saraswati all other gods and their idols worshipped by so-called 'Hindu' Bengalis are seen to be armed to the teeth and engaging in violent acts!!! I would go so far as ro claim that as a consequence of all this, Bengalis by nature are predisposed to violence! And what does the GoI do to further displease the Bengalis? Instead of using code-words like Maa Durga or Maa Kali has smiled, the numbskulls in South Block decided to arouse a peaceloving chap like Gautam Buddha and 'forced' him 'to smile' not once (in May 1974), not twice (on May 11, 1998), but thrice (on May 13, 1998)!!!!!

TO SKINS: Are yaar, why don't you take the trouble to do some research on your own? Why don;t you ask Austin? Why do you insist on being spoon-fed? Anyway, here's the link: http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1471619&postcount=610

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Anon@2.18PM: Have you ever stopped to ask why exactly are the Kashmiri youth up in arms? Why should they be blamed if the GoI does not ensure year-long connectivity by road/rail between the Kashmir Valley and the rest of India? Have you ever tried lying idle with no work at all for six months year after year? Afterall an empty mind is a devil's workshop. If the mind remains engaged productively, no distractions will prevail. Why is the GoI only now drilling tunnels to provide such connectivity? Couldm't all this have been done in the 1960s itself?

Anonymous said...

lol prasun, thats why i'm suggesting the idle mind fuckers work on building roads!!! so that they can keep busy... OK but jokes aside, pls, i know Kashmir. To say there's no work is rubbish. The majority of stone pelters are college students, shop keepers etc, not farmers. The fact is, despite me not liking to say it, is Muslim population in concentration is a big cancer, and to deal with it you need iron fist policies like what's being done in Ughyur and Northern Burma. And does being cut-off for 6 months of a year give scumbag kashmiris the right to burn Indian flag and kill Hindu pandits?? Give me a break. I just voiced my opinion and if you don't like or think the words contain profinity, then just delete it.

about bengalis being warriors, we saw how easily the bengalis fell to the mughal scums. we also saw how the porki mofos could rape and kill so many thousands before the bengalis retaliated. i think true warriors are those from Tamil Nadu since their land was hardly ever touched by the mughal scums.

Anonymous said...

and by the way prasun the most shameless dog of indian defence industry, k.saraswat has put-off launch of prahaar..

i wonder why the fruitcake even had to announce a specific date if any??? can't the idiot say "towards end of Jul or something" or just refrain from announcing like how they did for Shourya?? Fool

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Anon@5.36PM: I would rather approach the Kashmiri problem through a pincer movement: first, abolish the Article 370 and encourage settlers (like the Sikhs) to take up residence in Kashmir, and secondly adopt the Chinese method of just bulldozing the existing ghettos and creating new cities and townships like the Chinese have done in Tibet. In one bold stroke the troublemakers will become a minority and insignificant. But Article 370 must go as it only serves to make other Indian states look second-class.
Regarding the Bengali issue, let us not forget that 47,000 armed Mukti Bahini personnel were raised between April and November 1971, no small feat.

To Anon@5.39PM: Take it easy dude...chill out. Let's not get personal here. He may be a pujari of 'bhagwaan' and 'vigyaan', but in this case he may have forgotten that 'shristi' has its own timetable. The vagaries of the weather are such that the weatherman has ruled out fair weather for the next 72 hours.

SKINS said...

sir i was not asking for the interview with the hal guy but with the chief of sukhoi which contains far more information about the technology of engines made at hal koratpur it consists of a wealth of information about how su 30 and its engines are made at hal

Anonymous said...

i'm the above anon..

yes i agree that A370 must be abolished, no doubt. but in reply to your article on india's state of affairs when it comes to strategic road construction, i feel policy makers (who unfortunately are fucked up retards) should teach these kashmiri scum a lesson. only iron fist can work with these scums. either be productive and stay in peace or we work them to death, the way the NAZIs did. And to be fair, I believe Indians in all prisons throughout should be given a chance to work on army projects; This way the Kashmiri scums can mingle with other Indians and they can become beter citizens.

you said "Regarding the Bengali issue, let us not forget that 47,000 armed Mukti Bahini personnel were raised between April and November 1971, no small feat. ".

and my reply is: this force was created with strong Indian support and funding only after Porki mofos murdered and raped millions of bengalis!! in fact it was India who even organised Mukti Bahini into a potent fighting force. And without a doubt Mukti Bahini (with other Bengali mutineers) could never have routed Porki Army on its own. In my opinion Bengalis are very intelligent people in their own rights. Many prominent bengalis have made a name for themselves (maybe including you too!!). But however they have generally been "softies", being unable to defend their land in comparison to other Indian races e.g. Tamils, Marathas etc; i.e. they have never been "warrior" people. Just because they pray to Durga and Kali and do blood sacrifices means nothing. The Mayans for instance did public beheading of humans for sacrifice but they vanished without a trace.

I also wanna ask, these missiles (eg Prahaar) works in all weather, so what's with "bad weather"?

Anonymous said...

furthermore to your earlier statement of kashmir being cut-off as a reason why scum kashmiris pelt stones at our jawans, i wonder why then the buddhists in ladakh (which is way more isolated than kashmir valley) don't do such disgusting things?? In fact kashmir valley is not even as isolated as Arunachal. Kashmiri scums have a lower poverty rate and higher per capita income than other Indians so what's their problem? Scumfucks

Austin said...

Prasun , good you posted those interview link its quite exhaustive and clears a lot of things , Great Interview done by FORCE and equally well details provided by HAL chairman , Kudos to FORCE.

Any reasons why Russian did not give us permission to source raw materials locally but insisted on getting it from Russia ? Considering HAL chairman says spares are made from local materials.

May be this can change with MMRCA where we can insist aircraft be made from locally sourced raw materials ?

Seems the Russian are neck deep with Su-30 production and even guarding their technology.

Will FGFA have MKI like arrangement or will it be more liberal ?

My comment on LPD/LPH procurement was more related to delays with MOF/MOD process and final clearance from CCSA , even though of Navy decided on the type by next year , they are at the mercy of MOD/MOF and the final clearance from CCSA which optimistically takes atleast 3 years may be more and yes the idea that different yards will build one of the type is really insane , this has built in delays built into it.

Thanks for clarifying on MKI cost part.

Anonymous said...

Dear Prasun da,
can you kindly pass me some info about the new composite armor of Arjun mk2-like the composition and the possible frontal turret armor thickness in RHA scale??And do you know anything about development of long rod FSAPDS in the line of german DM 63 rounds for our Arjun tank??Current tungsten rods seem to be much shorter.
THANKS in advance.

Anonymous said...

People, please have doubts. You doubt Prasun which is ok if backed by information and reasonable counter argument, but concluding on an opinion from some comments made by some 'Colonel Jitendra Vyas' who by the way is as anonymous as 'Anonymous' can be. Give it a break.

To the anons July 17, 2011 11:34 PM,
July 18, 2011 1:15 AM and other like you who are lurking around,
I will suggest you keep yourselves in the forums like http://forum.pakistanidefence.com/ and http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/
You will find comradrie among others like you whose contributions are couple of lines of rhetorics, uninformed guesses and bovine jingoism.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To SKINS: Regretably I’m unable to trace the interview you’re asking about. The AL-31FPs are received NPO Saturn’s UFO production facility in fully knocked-down condition and are assembled in Koraput. Less than 20% of the engine components are made locally and for these too the raw materials originate from Russia. The entire hot-section, afterburner and exhaust nozzle comes fully built-up from Russia.

To Anon@7.31PM: Couple of clarifications regarding the Bengali issue. Firstly, it has now been proven historically that nowhere were millions of even tens of thousands of Bengailis were raped after Pakistan imposed emergency/martial law in East Pakistan in March 1971. While there were atrocities committed, there was no genocide as such. Secondly, the region of Bengal never lay in the crossroads of any invading army as it was the farthest part of the Indo-Gangetic plain and the invaders never bothered to venture as far out as that until the arrival of the East India Company. It would also be unfair to call Bengalis ‘softies’ for the reason you mention since even the Rajputs, Marathas, Jats, Sikhs, and Tamils were subjugated from time to time by various invading forces, including the British, and in the end ended up being totally defenceless. In my view it is not an issue of being a warrior race or not, but about superior strategic visioning and organisational skills that galvanises even ‘softies’ to become diehard warriors. Hence, the Marathas were clueless until the arrival of Shivaji, as were the Sikhs before the arrival of Guru Gobind Singh and Maharaja Ranjit Singh, and as were the Tamils until the arrival (in the medieval era) of Tipu Sultan. Regarding the inability of Ladakhis to stage violent acts, the answers are simple: they are unorganised, they lead a mostly nomadic existence living off the land, and are steeped in the Buddhist tradition of non-violence. They are something like the Myanmarese, who, despite being oppressed to the hilt, have weaknesses like tribalism and regionalism, along with the pacifist Buddhist way of life, and it is the sum total of all these that have prevented them from becoming a cohesive opposition to the military junta. The situation in Arunachal Pradesh is similar, where its 1 million population includes various tribes each with their own priorities. They are not a cohesive lot, as opposed to the Muslims in the Kashmir Valley.
Regarding the Prahaar, let me state that most land-based weapon systems are not all-weather, be it a missile or a howitzer or an armoured vehicle or a communications system. Even if one is land-mobile in bad weather, the target acquisition system is always adversely affected by bad weather (be it rain or a sandstorm). Even radios and GPS receivers (like DTH dishes) don’t work in bad weather and under foliage. Therefore, a system like the Prahaar may well be able to fire the missile under any weather conditions, but what about its GPS-based land navigation system, its target acquisition system (like a MALE-UAV, which can be rendered useless if it encounters crosswinds of just 10 Knots), and its SATCOM-based command-and-control system? All these components of the Prahaar are very much victims of the vagaries of the weather.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Austin: Many thanks. Regarding the raw materials issue, it always boils down to the time and cost factors. For instance, how much time would MIDHANI have taken to basically re-invent the wheel by developing titanium alloys and their production processes, or single-crystal turbine blades (MIDHANI says it is still at it for the Kaveri)? Therefore, to expedite the Su-30MKI licenced-production programme it was decided way back in the late 1990s to import the raw materials directly from Russia. Regarding the M-MRCA the same routine will be followed primarily due to the time and cost factors. The time to be taken for indigenously developing and producing the raw materials and then developing their machining processes will be far too long. In any case, neither the MoD nor the IAF is insisting on the transfer of such technologies because it is not such technologies (in the case of airframes, engines and accessories) that affect fleet availability, but rather the in-country MRO capabilities, training packages, and mission software upgrade capabilities that matter the most in terms of guaranteeing lifetime operational sovereignty over the fleet. As for Russians zealously guarding their metallurgical expertise, they are merely following the standard global practice, and are by no means the exception. I’m pretty sure one day if HAL exports the Tejas Mk1/2 to anyone, HAL will not transfer the technology for producing airframe-related co-cured composites structures to the aircraft operator. Regarding the FGFA, the Russians will adhere to the same practice.

To Anon@10:37PM: The answers that you seek are available only from the DRDO and OFB. Even the Indian Army does not have the answers to such questions. I’m not aware of the DRDO or OFB developing any long-rod FSAPDS KE penetrators. During various military exhibitions, I’ve seen manufacturers from the US, Russia, Germany, China, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Poland and Pakistan displaying their KE penetrators, but neither the OFB nor the DRDO has ever done so.

Anonymous said...

Prasunda,
there is a mistake in your second last comment. Tamils didnt wake up on arrival of Tipu sultan, they were almost a regional super power at the time of cholas, pandya etc. they had good maritime commerce and did a great deal to spread the local culture as far as ASEAN and Indonesia, and in nearby srilanka.

Tipu sultan came in very late (in fact he was a Kannadiga not Tamil, an hence should be an invader) on the legacy of his father Hyder Ali Khan. No doubt he was a master strategist something missing in action since long in subcontinent.

The south was comparatively spared by the invaders possibly because of the vast distance, heavy forests, hills etc from the plains where troop movemetn is quite easy.

i think the infighting and faction fights done by many of our so called warrior clans are anything worth mentioning other than being deplorable; meticulous defensive strategy and show of mere muscle strength (without brains) is chalk and cheese.

Anonymous said...

(anon 7.31) - prasun i am not a tamil nor am i a maratha but i said that these two races have been superior because they have been subjugated for a very small period of history. tipu sultan did manage to conquer large parts of current day TN but not for long. And while the mughal scums conquered almost all of india, the south was untouched. During Delhi sultanate (i.e. the peak during scumbag Muhammad Tughluq's rule), only the Marathi belt and the Pandya kingdoms were untouched. In the height of Mughal empire (i.e. mofo Aurangazeb's rule), only the southern tip was untouched. Only during Deccan Sultanate did they conquer most of the sourhern tip for a brief period. Tipu sultan also raided the South a few times but never could get a firm footing. Madras was not under the rule of Mysore Sultanate for long. It was only the Brits who eventually took Madras under their control. So while bengal had been ruled by outsiders for over 1000 years, foreign rule in Madras never exceeded 300 years in all. In fact Tamil Kingdoms were probably the only ones in India that went out colonising; e.g. in South East Asia etc. Even Angkor Wat is based on Tamilian architecture.

On the other hand much of Bengal was under Muslim rule from 1250AD (and more than half is STILL under islamist rule). About Bengal Genocide, please, GBR has listed it as top 5 genocides. in 20th century, so what are u talking? About Bengal's location, the location of the Coromandel coast is far more strategic (which is why Jews and the first Muslims arrived here) - and not in Bengal's coast.

and thanks for the clarification on the Missile. I'm quite shocked to know that not all modern missiles are all-weather!!

Anonymous said...

..and lastly about Buddhist tradition of non-violence, please read some history on buddhism especially on how it was spread so far and wide; and also please read the history of Bhutan.

(sorry for the many posts...)

cheers.

Anonymous said...

Typhoon outdid Rafale in Libya, claims four-nation consortium

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article2233653.ece

The above-mentioned article has an interesting tidbit about the Dassault Rafale being the lower bid for the MMRCA.

While I know your views on the recent Mirage-2000 upgrade deal, I don't think even this government would be so suicidal to pay such an exorbitant price for one contract. In such a situation, would it be plausible that the Mirage deal provides some cover for equipment related to the Rafale? I'd appreciate your take on this!!

Thanks

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

Anon@10.33AM: The authenticity of the 'genocide' has been questioned and disproved not only in India, bu also in today's Awami League-ruled Bangladesh. Books have been written about it as well by Indian scholars.
Anyway, let's hope the Prahaar finally gets test-fired on July 21. That's what the DRDO is now saying.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Anon@11.06AM: Well, that's what the Eurofighter GmBH consortium-members would claim, and once you compare such remarks with what the French had said during the Paris Air Show, only then will a balanced comparative analysis emerge. While it is true that Dassault Aviation's offer is L-1, the Mirage 2000H/TH upgrade contract--if awarded to Dassault & THALES--does have the potential to jeapordise France's chances of winning the M-MRCA contract and that's exactly why the French were earlier advising the IAF to drop the upgrade programme and invest the money thus saved into the M-MRCA programme. For, awarding two prohibitively expensive contracts to France in quick succession will not only raise eyebrows, but also tantamount to putting all of India's eggs into the French basket. Consequently, the scenario now being drawn out is if the Mirage 2000 upgrade contract goes to France, then the M-MRCA contract should go to the Eurofighter consortium.

Anonymous said...

Prasun @ 12.00pm

Thank you for the reply. The point I was trying to make is that the Mirage upgrade deal would fall apart if any other aircraft wins the MMRCA contract. Suppose the Eurofighter wins the contract, the CAG/Press/opposition/rival contractors would all be asking why the Mirage deal was awarded at such a high price when a far cheaper Israeli offer exists. The government would be hard-pressed to provide answers and I don't think they can afford that in the era of 2G/CWG and Kaveri-Godavari gas scams.

Going by past precedent, there is every chance the Mirage upgrade package could face significant opposition. An interesting blog by Greg Waldron on Flight global talked of the overall worth of the mirage package becoming lower if clubbed with the purchase of the Rafale.

Anonymous said...

i know what you mean about many current researches disputing the figures of 1971 but two things:

1. It is my firm belief that this lowering is part of a pakistani ploy. and if you notice these "facts" only started coming out after Volume 1 of Hamodoor Rahman report were published in 2000, which put the figures at 25,000. This is a gross understatement.

2. The number 25,000 does not include those who were injured by the Porkis, including women raped and men maimed. In addition, many babies too were killed and orphanages burned down. These too were touched in passing in that report.

3. between 6 and 12 million Bengalis fled to India as refugees.


now if you put 1, 2 and 3 together with the number of people who lost their homes, posessions etc (even on the lower quartile), what you have is no less than a humanitarian disaster / genocide. Again I repeat that even so, the Bengalis only organised into a potent fighting force with full Indian encouragement, funding, backing and leadership - and that came because of the refugee problem. In addition India provided overt support in the form of a full scale invasion. Mukti Bahini were only considered "co-orperators" in this operation. Mukti Bahini could never have dreamt of defeating Pork Mil on their own. Porki Mil would have wiped out Bengal.

yeah, hope Prahar rocks. Any updates you have on the missile??

(and it is very disconcerting for u to have removed my comment above)

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Anon Above: The only reason that comment was deleted was becuse of its vulgar content, nothing personal, do rest assured. Yes, the Mukti Bahini was a brilliant creation of the likes of Lt Gen (Ret'd) jake Jacob. During civil wars and insurrections there are many nameless and faceless who perish forever, just as in WB one is still discovering and will continue to discover mass graves of civilians killed due to senseless political violence. Bit genocide in East Pakistan? That's a long stretch as no one has as yet come forward to claim or even prove that the Pakistan Army and its supporters--the Razakars--engaged in deliberate ethnic cleansing. Mass atrocities, yes, but genocide, no. I beg to differ with you on this issue.
Well, more info is definitely emerging about the Prahaar and its future with the Indian Army. In fact, the Army had planned to retain the Prithvi SS-150s in service for a period not exceeding a decade PROVIDED the DRDO could come up with a solid-fuelled replacement. And that is exactly what's happening now. But it will not replace MBRLs like the Pinaka or Smerch-M, as the HINDU news report claims. And neither will the liquid-fuelled Prithvi SS-250 ever be inducted into service as either a strategic or a tactical missile and all media claims to the contrary are pure baloney. Just consider one simple fact: if the SS-250 has a famed CEP of less than 10 metres, then why on Earth have all its test-firings been conducted from the ITR, with all the missiles impacting at sea? Why not conduct the test-firing over land at Pokhran? Afterall, the BrahMos has thus far been test-fired thrice in Pokhran. As they say, seeing is believing and the Army rightly has clung on to the view that if a tactical surface-to-surface battlefield support missile like the Prithvi SS-250cannot even be demonstrated at a land-based firing range, then there must indeed be something fishy about the missile.

Anonymous said...

Prasun , as it India will order 126 and second batch order of 64 i.e. 190 more than 180 ordered by French for Rafale . Then why French are not push hard as Eurofighter Consortium. But they battle for Brazilian contract. Why should India care about Rafale they not offer or even showing of high level of more than 50% technology transfer whereas Eurofighter doing all that. “The technology transfer is very attractive,” said senior officers of the four-nation consortium while no statement from France.

Anonymous said...

cont.
if Rafale does ordered by India then this will double the current order then why not provide India a second manufacturing line in India by technology transfer.

buddha said...

how far upgraded Mig-29 going to be........
Is it a match to New F-16 of PAk

Has it got ground attack capability like Mirage

Is there any chance of collecting more Mig-29 to add in the IAF's reducing inventory for temporary solution

Thanks&Regards

Anonymous said...

well if you found it vulgur than it's really unfortunate that you have a poor sense of humour, but no worries, keep that aside.

Genocide is defined as "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group" according to wikipedia. 1971 was very much destruction of Nationalist Group (Bengali Nationalist), religious group (Hindu Bengalis) and also (i don't know where to classify this in), destruction of professionals.
Porki Scum hated Bengalis from day one because most Bengali Muslims used to celebrate Durga Puja, they use a predimonantly "hindu" writing system (with little/no arabic influence) and they are smaller built and have darker skin that West Porki scums. And they wanted to erase this by destroying hindus and intelectuals. I rest my case here.

By the way I recommend you read this short but very well written article: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304911104576445862242908294.html

About Missiles, well i'm blinking at your questions. I have not much knowledge in this field although my interest pulls me to blogs like this. Anyway time will tell. I think time for a new article...

Anonymous said...

Futuristic infantry combat vehicle (FICV)-
Volume required(issued).
Specifications(weapons and other things) in FICV .
Approx when it may be inked

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Anon@2.42PM: The French are as aggressive as Eurofighter GmbH, but the only difference is the French are doing it behind-the-scenes away from the glare of the mass-media, whereas Eurofighter GmbH is being fully transparent about its marketing activities. The French have reasons to be publicity-shy since the Govt of India under the NDA govt had assured Paris sometime in 2002 that the Mirage 2000s will be 'logically' replaced by the Rafale, without any competition. Then after the UPA govt came into power the goalposts were changed and the French were then told that the M-MRCA procurement will involve a competitive bidding exercise. Therefore, one can hardly blame the French for keeping quiet in public, lest all this dirt from the previous NDA and UPA-1 govts comes up now. And no one from India is asking for a second manufacturing line as it will be prohibitively expensive (just ask the Eurofighter member-nations how much its costs to set up the same production line in four countries). All India wants is transfer of screwdriver technologies for licenced-assembly.

To buddha: The MiG-29UPGs will be way superior to the PAF's Block 52 F-16C/D for both air combat and air-to-ground precision strike. Theoretically, more surplus MiG-29 airframes can be obtained from Russia and upgraded to UPG standard if the IAF wants to begin replacing its MiG-27Ms and even the Mirage 2000s. But if the IAF wants more MRCAs it can also easily order more Su-30MKIs. Both options are on the table.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Anon@5.23PM: No of FICVs reqd is 2,000+ in different versions. Final specs are now being worked out for the definitive GSQR.
Further details on FICV are available at: http://trishul-trident.blogspot.com/2011/06/project-ficv-profiled.html

Anonymous said...

Dear Sir Please answer my question

Will SU 30 be able to carry ONE OR TWO Brahmos missiles

Anonymous said...

Prasun, you said upgraded Mig-29 of IAF will be far better than PAF's F-16 block 52 in both air to air and air to ground role.I completly disagree with you on this.
First of all, IAF's Mig-29 are 20-25 years old airframe and they are only getting upgraded whereas PAF's F-16 block 52 are brand new. They offers better serviceablity and are easy to maintain.
Second, in air to ground role Mig-29 stands no where to F-16 be it range (2000 km v/s 3500 km), payload (4.5 t v/s 6 t), EW suits etc.
Third, with brand new APG-68(V)9 radar F-16 can detect aircrafts from 150 km+ away whereas Zhuk-m radar of Mig-29 can detect aircrafts from 120 km only.Also, F-16 has more better BVR missile AMRAAM-120 C5 than MIG's R-77 RVVAE. Mig-29 can outperform F-16 only in dogfight.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Anon Above: Firstly, airframes are never ‘upgraded’ during deep upgrade programmes. They get zero-lifed, meaning they’re as good as new. That’s why in aviation parlance there’s no such thing as old or ageing aircraft. Either an aircraft is airworthy or it is not. Secondly, serviceability will be better for the MiG-29UPG as the internally-mounted HUMS installation caters to ‘on-condition’ serviceability capabilities. Thirdly, the range is immaterial as it is the combat radius that counts relative to the area of operations. One does not need a long–range combat aircraft to operate over the skies of a country with an elongated geography and a depth of only 300km. Fourthly, for effects-based precision strikes the payload tonnage is of no relevance because new-generation lightweight PGMs are proliferating by the day. Fifth, the MiG-29UPG’s Virgilius EW suite (employing AESA apertures similar to the Rafale’s Spectre) is a generation ahead of what’s available on the Block 52 F-16C/D. Furthermore, the PAF’s F-16C/Ds do not come with integral DRFM re-programmers, meaning their EW threat libraries cannot be re-programmed in-country. The MiG-29UPG on the other hand, suffers from no such limitations. Sixth, the APG-68(V)9 remains a non-monopulse MMR whereas the Zhuk-M being an X-band monopulse MMR, automatically scores over the former in terms of reliability. Seventh, the AIM-120C5 can be easily neutralised by the Virgilius internal EW suite—that’s the main job of this EW suite and it has been optimised for that role. Lastly, the MiG-29UPG, equipped with the IRST sensor, will always retain the edge over the F-16 in beyond-visual-range totally passive target detection/acquisition, which will enable the R-73E to engage the F-16 way before the F-16’s AIM-9S Sidewinders are activated by the JHMCS.

Anonymous said...

The great Indian tamaasha regarding the Prahaar gets dizzier by the hour! Now this tarmak007 fella is comparing the Prahaar with the BrahMos, little realising that the Prahaar is a battlefield support missile with a CEP of less than 10 metres, while the BrahMos is a precision strike missile hitting targets with pinpoint accuracy. Yesterday another fella from THE HINDU claimed that the Prahaar will replace the Pinaka and Smerch MLRS. And what this tarmak007, as usual quoting the always unnamed and faceless sources whose existence can't be corroborated, is now ludicrously claiming that the AAD-derived Prahaar will be contained in a 6-cell cannister when the AAD's photo clearly shows this missile housed within a single-cell launcher on a TATRA vehicle. This time the 'Desi' media, with tarmak007 in the lead, has really gone overboard bigtime!!!!!!

Anonymous said...

To Anon Above: What baffles me is how the hell can an unsanctioned R & D project even take off? The tarmak007 report claims the DRDO has not received any sanctioned funding for developing the Prahaar, which to me is impossible because the annually sanctioned funds--including non-recurring and recurring R & D funds, and establishment costs--do not cater for any savings to be accrued for disbursement into uncharted territory, even for in-house spending purposes. That leaves only one possibility open: funding coming from the capital account of the Army's budget. And if this is the case, then the Army being the end-user will never fund a technology demonstration programme. It will not even fund the development of pre-production prototypes, leave alone technology demonstrators. No one from the armed forces has yet funded the development of technology demonstrators like the S-2 ATV, the LCA TDs and the TD vehicles of the Arjun MBT. Therefore, if indeed the R & D funding is coming from the Army, then the concerned weapon system must have already gone well past the R & D stage. That's why the tarmak007 report smacks of totaly bunkum.

Anonymous said...

To Anons@1.10PM & 2.05PM: This tarmak007 dude seems set upon a course that directly contradicts each and every utterance in the recent past of Dr V K Saraswat. For instance the so-called DRDO 'insider sources' he quotes claim that "today we don't have a good tactical missile for any conventional role". Well if that's the case, then these alleged DRDO sources are either just imaginary and non-existent (by conveniently overlooking the existence of BrahMos), or they're challenging the DRDO itself, since it is the DRDO that has been persistently claiming that the Prithvi-2 can hit targets out to 350km with CEP of less than 10 metres!!! The due also claims that (lolz) one canister can hold a maximum of six missiles--something that's a total physical absurdity! It was Saraswat himself who had earlier said that the road-mobile launcher can carry six Prahaar missiles, and not six missiles inside a single canister. In all, a bundle of contradictions emanating from these 'desi' journos.

Anonymous said...

lolz..it's getting better by the hour...another 'desi' patrakaar dude called Chacko Joseph now says this: "Prahaar is a solid fueled version of the Prithvi P1 (SS-150) with a range of 150 Kms. DRDO spokesman told Frontier India said that Prahar is is more advanced than the prithvi P1 which was the first ever In surface to surface designed and produced by the DRDO. Information is scant on the Prahaar system, but, as per secretary, Dept of Defence, and Director General of DRDO, Dr V.K. Saraswat, six missiles can be loaded on to a single launcher, making it more cost-effective than others. He had further said that ‘Prahaar’ tactical short-range missile bridges the gap between short-range rocket systems like the 40-kilometer range ‘Pinaka’ multi-barrel rocket or 90 kms Smerch and the Prithvi III (SS-350) – Naval Version (350 km range with a payload of 500 kg). This indicates that Prithvi Missile could be replaced by Prahaar with 150 km, 250 km and 350 km ranges."
I would love to see how six solid fueled versions of the Prithvi P1 can be housed in one road-mobile launch vehicle (lolz).

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Anons Above: Just sit back & enjoy the freak-shows! All will be settled within another 48 hours.

buddha said...

what is top secret wepon kali 5000
is it a myth or reality

buddha said...

is India getting 512 CBU-105 Sensor Fuzed Weapons.
if yes ....when

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To buddha: Dunno about the Kali-5000 since as you say it is top-secret, although since you know the name it may not be so top-secret to you anymore. The CBU-105s will be delivered early next year.

buddha said...

all i want to know is that kali-5000
is mere speculation or reality

if u can narrate , it will be clear to us
waiting for ur reply
Thanks & Regards

Anonymous said...

KALI was inducted in 2004...read http://www.barc.ernet.in/webpages/press/dirspeech.html

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Buddha: I'm not aware of the existence of anything called KALI-5000.

Anonymous said...

to that anon up there, it is the punjabis and the pathans who are the bravest warriors of south aisa, not tamils or marathas!

Kumar said...

More info on Kali -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KALI_(laser)


http://www.barc.ernet.in/btdg/appd/power.html

Anonymous said...

Hi Prasun,
Dr. Kalam claimsin his book(like a colnel in your blog earlier) that Indian missile development upto IGMDP was reverse engg of SA-6 system called proj Devil in his book (wings of fire) which was shelved although SLV was a civilian programme he worked in.
So Indeed Prthvi as part of this missile dev programme should be considered as the father of the missle dev prog like the colnel in ur blog claimed.
Dr. Kalam also mentions the sorry state of the DRDL then.so w/o the prithvi effort we would not have gone far.
He states that west imposed a ban on dual -tech items after prithvi test flight in 1988.Why was this so if the tech was indigenously dev? or did Kalam not mention uncomfortable truths?
He talks abt collaboration b/w universities and the govt organizations then.Why this is not possible now?
He also talks abt various western countries warning india not to go ahead with the agni test.Why was this when india was a democracy if not for the fear tat we may in a decade going forward(1990s) with similar progs be capable of achieving a lot(hypothetically) and create a tech base competing with the west ?
He says he was invited by US airforce to the US in the late 80s and visited Northrop's office.What was the purpose when US was hostile to India then?

Why could India not achieve musch after 90s when b/w 83-91 RCI,various labs were set up and 5 missile sys were flight tested whereas no new proj was initiated in the 90s like Kalam's(scale)?
economic pbms?

Mr. Ra said...

The people worth their salt may not be aware of the existence of anything called KALI-5000. Lol...

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Anon@6.31PM: Aren't you forgetting the Dogras, who subdues even the Pathans during the reign of Maharaja Ranjit Singh?

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Anon@9.46PM: Project Devil was not about the SA-6, but the SA-2 (Dvina V750VK SAM). The Akash E-SHORADS was a re-engineered SA-6 KUB/KVADRAT while the Trishul was an attempted re-engineering of the OSA-AK. There’s a difference between missile development programme of India and the IGMDP. In fact, the first guided-missile to be developed was an anti-tank missile in the 1970s, which was a re-engineered version of the anti-tank missiles supplied by France to India in the early 1970s along with the SA.316B Alouette III/Chetak helicopters. When Kalam talks about the ban on dual-use technologies, he was referring to efforts by the DRDO to procure specialised R & D equipment like test benches, high-tech cameras and telemetry tracking/recording hardware, etc. Without such equipment, no weapon systems can ever be developed in-house. The problem is there are very very few intellectuals in India who can really discuss this issue threadbare, hence folks like you get confused and folks like Kalam don’t bother to explain. For instance, while Kalam talks about collaboration between Indian academic institutions and govt R & D organisations, he fails to explain why the end-users of military hardware, i.e. the armed forces, are not part of the project management/technical audit team from the very outset. As for Western countries warning India not to develop the Agni family of ballistic missiles, the West was more apprehensive (just as it is about Iran now) because India had not taken the trouble to even draft a white paper on her defence policy, her threat perceptions, and her national security objectives. In strategic matters concerning nuclear weapons there ought to be total clarity, and not ambivalence of the type now being practiced with regard to the status of the Prithvi missiles. Till today India has not specified whether or not the Prithvi will carry a nuclear warhead. And what has this led to? Pakistan has gone ahead and deployed the Babur cruise missile and Hatf-9/Nasr battlefield support missile. This type of uncalled-for arms race will go on for as long as India does not spell out her nuclear weapons usage doctrine in black-and-white. The US was never hostile to India, but India became hostile to the US after the 1956 Avadi session of the AICC general assembly. And throughout the 1980s India became hostile to the US’ ‘Star Wars’ ballistic missile defence programme and militarisation of outer space. And what has India been doing since 1997? The very same things which the US was doing from the 1950s, i.e. developing ballistic missile defences and deploying military reconnaissance satellites. Now you tell me who wouldn’t be pissed with India’s hypocracy. Can any Indian leader explain this today?
Lastly, it was not A P J Abdul Kalam who initiated the IGMDP, but Dr V S Arunachalam, the then Secretary DRDO and it was given the critical push forward by the then Defence Minister R Ventakaraman.

Anonymous said...


Indian Navy to Order Carrier Capable Rafale Fighter Jet

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