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Wednesday, June 13, 2012

Eurosatory 2012 Highlights

Israel Aerospace Industries’ ELTA Systems has unveilled its EL/M-2138T ‘Green Rock’ Tactical Counter Rockets, Artillery & Mortars (C-RAM) weapon locating radar for supporting a variety of ground forces missions, including force protection, fast response to enemy-attack and friendly-fire correction. Installed on all-terrain vehicles (ATV), the system comprises a dual-band radar system to acquire and track trajectories of ballistic munitions such as MBRL rockets, field artillery projectiles and mortar rounds. The EL/M-2138T calculates the launching point and predicts the point of impact. Whenever a threat to friendly forces is detected, a warning is sent to the area’s control centre and to the interception systems to respond to the threat and its source/s.
The Leopard 2 MBT's design never ceases to evolve! This should serve as a valuable lesson worthy of emulation for the CVRDE when it comes to the Arjun Mk2 MBT.     
Elbit Systems has launched the Clip-On Coyote (above), a modular un-cooled sight that easily integrates in front of any sniper’s rifle telescope. Weighing less than 1.7kg, the Clip-On Coyote enables shooting ranges on accurate calibres for snipers for more than 1,000 metres, cutting-edge thermal imagery quality, detection range of 2.5km and more than 8 hours of continuous operations. Specially designed for team operations, the system also offers a Video Net Kit for team efficiency. Comprised of video recording, transferring and receiving capabilities, the kit has also the ability to connect several snipers to the same net, enabling them to share and coordinate mission data. It also provides enhanced command and control and advanced monitoring and investigating capabilities.
Below is the Artemis 30 air-defence cannon from Greece’s Hellenic Defence Systems, which is now the only system left in the fray after the Skyranger/Skyshield 35 deom Rheinmetall Air Defence (formerly Oerlikon Contraves has been disqualified by the MoD. However, the future prospects of the Artemis 30—being promoted by Bharat Electronic s Ltd--in India is also in grave doubt now, since Abhishek Verma’s Ganton Ltd is also enmeshed with Hellenic Defence Systems. Which in turn means bidding ‘goodbye’ for good to the procurement of gun-based air-defence systems for the Army, Navy & IAF, and instead going ahead with the procurement of only missile-based VSHORADS/MANPADS and SHORADS solutions. The other option is to procure from Russia some 500 ZU-23-2 guns and have them upgraded in a manner similar to what will be done to the Army's existing 468 ZU-23-2s, for which Punj Lloyd and an industrial partnership of OFB/BEL are competiting for the upgrade contract.
Anyway, the talk of the town here at EUROSATORY 2012 is the utter intellectual backwardness of the Indian Army, which is very aptly being described as an institution “preparing for third-generation warfare (conventional conflicts) with a World War-2 mindset”. Take for instance, the sheer ineptitude with which the Indian Army prepares its GSQRs. Since September 2010, no less than 41 RFPs have been issued and nullified due to faulty GSQRs, stringent GSQRs, faulty vendor analysis prior to issuing the RFPs, and deficiencies in defining & fine-tuning ToT issues by deliberately keeping the Army’s Master General Ordnance (MGO) Branch out of the competitive tendering processes. On average, Army HQ takes several years to draft a GSQR, a task that ought to be completed within two years. Next, instead of taking just a month to draft the RFP, it takes nine months. Subsequently, the technical evaluation of the RFPs, which ought to be concluded within a 3-month period, instead takes six months. Finally, the subsequent General Staff evaluation, which ought to be wrapped up within 7 months, is instead concluded by the 18th month.
To top it all up, there is the regressive mindset that is now being witnessed in the forthcoming competition for 155mm/52-cal howitzers. For instance, the Indian Army, instead of focussing on just mounted gun systems (MGS) like motorised and tracked self-propelled howitzers that can be air-transported by platforms like the C-130J-30, C-17A and IL-76MD, is instead hell-bent upon acquiring 1,580 new-build 155mm/52-cal towed gun systems (TGS) and only 800+ motorised MGS. The second issue that irks many is the Army’s strange and unexplainable mindset which believes that motorised howitzers are more expensive than the TGS, which requires a separate tow-truck and is therefore far more expensive than a motorised MGS.
Coming to the TGS competition, the principal bidders are expected to be the TRAJAN (a towed version of the Caesar) that is being proposed by prime contractor Nexter Systems of France and its Indian industrial partner Larsen & Toubro, the FH-77B05L52 from the Mahindra Defence Systems/BAE Systems consortium, and the ATHOS-2052 from prime contractor ELBIT Systems (which now owns Soltam Systems) and its Indian industrial partner, the Kalyani Group. Both TGS contenders have been invited for competitive mobility-cum-firing trials on a no-cost no-commitment basis, which are expected to be held between this December and next June. It remains to be seen whether or not the FH-77B05L52 will take part in the trials. RFPs for the motorised MGS and for upgrading the existing M-46 field guns to 155mm/45-cal standard have yet to be issued, although RFIs were issued two years ago!
Which then brings us to the future of the inventory of existing 39-cal FH-77B TGS. Depending on whom to believe, it would seem that the MoD’s OFB-/BEL-developed 155X45 proposal for an upgrade package that will transform the existing FH-77B into a 155mm/45-cal howitzer will have to be subjected to competitive trials against the re-engineered GHN-45 155mm/45-cal TGS now being developed by the Kalyani Group with the help of ELBIT Systems. The moot question here is: can India afford to have such cost-prohibitive competitions involving local military-industrial entities on a no-cost no-commitment basis, or should a well thought-out market segmentation procedure be practiced in the interests of deriving win-win solutions within the shortest possible timeframe? 
My formula for success would be as follows: scrap the requirement for acquiring 1,580 new-build 155mm/52-cal TGS and instead authorise the OFB/BEL consortium to upgrade all existing 360 FH-77Bs to the 155X45-standard, and also authorise the Kalyani Group/ELBIT Systems industrial partnership to upgrade up to 800 M-46s to 155mm/45-cal standard, and procure at least 1,600 motorised MGS, preferably that version of the Caesar that can be air-transported even by C-130J-30s. 

64 comments:

amey said...

Sir,
1. What is present status of Bhim (T-6?) SPH ?

2. What is Nirbhay really...a subsonic loittering missile or ALCM supersonic with 1000+km range?

3. How many SPYDER batteris operational in IA n IAF? Is there a follow on order?how many more?

4. Can a akash missile take down F-16 C/D block 52++?

5. Are R-77 eqiupped with dual mode seeker ie IIR and ACtive radar seeker?

6. Proj 28 ASW corvettes have VLF towed array sonars (NG),but do they have a ULF sonar?
if no then how effective they will be against subs?

7.^^Which ASW helos they would be using?

8. Will blacklisting of Rheinmetal will affect Skyranger procurement?

Anonymous said...

Hi Prasun, the Rafale has 14 hardpoints and can carry a weapons payload of 9.5 tons. can all the hardpoints carry AAM. Whats the maximum no AAM the Rafale can carry? Can any of the hrdponts carry more than a single AAM?
In air superiority and air dominance role, which aircraft can carry a greater load of air-air missiles.

Will not the Rafales destined for the IAF carry more powerful engines and offer more thrust? Or will the the IAF go for the standard M88-4 variant? Once u .said about a 34000lbf M-88 variant. What about it. Once the engine thrust goes up considerably, will not the wing area has to be icreased, the control surfaces strenghtened .

Cant Dassault produce an enlarged variant of the Rafale with greater wing area,uprated engines,low wing loading,longer and wider nose,additional fuel tanks as Lockheed did in the F-2.It tansformed thev F-16 ingto F-2 for JSDAF. Pls reply.

Anonymous said...

Sir, according to Dassault, the Rafale is a multi role and omni role and is capable of tghe following missions:
•Air-defence / air-superiority,
•Reconnaissance,
•Close air support,
•Air-to-ground precision strike / interdiction,
•Anti-ship attacks,
•Nuclear strikes
Now if an aircraft is tasked with nuclear strike, then it must be fully EMP hardened from tip to toe so that when a nuc detonation takes place the em pulse generated will not fry the aircrafts avionics and radar and the ac is capanle of flying safely and has full combat potential. So is the Rafale emp hardened the way cold war strategic bombers such as B-1B,B-52,Tu-22,Tu-160,F-111.And does this complete emp hardening apply for all Rafales.
If there is any new developements with the Rafale, any enchaments, new more capable avionics,new radar modes, highthrust engines that are dispalyed in Eurosatory 2012, pls let us know.

KSK said...

Do you think IN should procure Rafale M for its carrier operations?

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Amey: Bhim SPH is a dead-end. As for Nirbhay, do read: http://trishul-trident.blogspot.in/2012/02/is-nirbhay-n-capable-alcm-being-co.html
No further updates on Spyder SHORADS. If any combat aircraft does not duck below the engagement envelope of the Rajendra BLR, then that combat aircraft is dead-meat. There’s no AAM in existence anywhere in this world that has dual-mode sensors. Project 28 ASW corvettes only have a hull-mounted VLF sonar, no towed-array sonars as yet. For ASW missions the corvette will use 10-tonne helicopters like the AS.365M Panther or S-70B2. NH-90 is out of the reckoning. Of course the Skyranger procurement is now effected.

To Anon@9.11PM: Of course, if the need arises, all the hardpoints can carry BVRAAMs. As and when more powerful variants of the M88-4 become available, they will be made available to the IAF. As the upgrades are modular, only the upgraded modules will be inserted into the existing M88-4s. Increased engine thrust will only call for enlarged air intakes, and no other changes to the fuselage.

To Anon@9.21PM: Only those Rafales destined for delivering air-delivered munitions like the ASMP are EMP-hardened. Eurosatory is all about land forces, just like the UK’s DSEI expo. For aerospace developments it is the Paris Air Show, while naval developments are showcased at Euronaval. Therefore, at Eurosatory, there’s nothing to show or tell regarding the Rafale.

To KSK: That depends on what kind of aircraft carrier the Indian Navy wants. Right now, both INS Vikramaditya & IAC-1 are only designed for operating MiG-29Ks. They will NEVER be able to operate the Rafale. For the projected IAC-2 the IN will have to decide in future two issues: will it be a flat-topped vessel and if so, then who will be supplying the catapults & arrestors, since only the US presently produces them. Secondly, will the US supply such gear for a nuclear-powered IAC-2, since the IN is of the view that if the DAE wants to develop indigenous PWRs for the projected fleet of SSNs over a period of 14 years (based on what the DAE has claimed), then the first step in this direction should be the development of PWRs for the IAC-2.

Anonymous said...

Hi Prasun , regarding the Rafale, I have a few queries.
1.Are u absolutely certain that all the 14 hrdpts cann carry AAMs?
2.In the air superiority and air dominance role, which ac can carry a heavier payload of AAM, the Typhoon or the Rafale?
3.In your previous thread on the Rafale,"Dassault Aviation's Rafle wins India's MMRCA contract", u said that uprated M-88 is already under developement."SNECMA Moteurs, meanwhile, is delivering enhanced M88-4E turbofans. Drawing on the activities of SNECMA’s ECO development programme of 2004-2007, the new standard reduces ownership costs and maintenance demands, gives an impressive 50% better lifespan, and also has the growth potential to increase available power from a current maximum of 17,000lb (75kN) to roughly 19,800lb. Key changes include a new high-pressure (HP) turbine, three new HP compressor stages and some changes to materials and geometry. The proposed derivative of the M88-4E for the UAE, called M88-9, will reach 9 tonnes of thrust by increasing the entering airflow from 65kg/second to 72kg/second, as well as the compression rate from 24.5 to 27. Using this engine, however, requires the Rafale’s air intakes to be enlarged, which was earlier a major blocking point in the negotiations with the UAE."
So, will the M-88 9 variant go onboard the Indian Rafales?
4.why will it take a lead time of 2.5 yrs after contract signature for aircraft delivery. Why cant production take place at the manufacturing facility straightway after contract signature.

Anonymous said...

Sir,
1.If the IAC-1 can operate the Mig-29k, why cant it operate the Rafale. Afterall the Rafale is smaller in size and also occupies less deck space.
2.If instead of embarkin g the MiG 29K , THE SAME NO OF Rafale is embarked, then it will be much more benficial and more types of roles and greater amount of ordance can be delivered on target .
3.In wiki it is given that the IAC-1 will be capable of crrying 29 MIG-29K and 10 helos. Is this correct.
4.Also according to wiki, the armament of Kolkata class ddg is:
• Anti-ship: 4× 4-cell BrahMos UVLM
• Air-defence: 2× 32-cell VLS Barak 8
• CIWS: 2× 30 mm AK-630 gatling guns + 4× 8 cell Barak 1
• Anti-submarine warfare: Torpedo tubes and 2× RBU-6000
Also is this true.
5.For AWACS , both the Vikramaditya and Vikrant can use the AEW variant of the V-22 Osprey. This will be ,much better tahn embarking ther Ka-31.

Anonymous said...

Why are we forcing the foreign companies to tie up with Indian Pvt companies which have no expertise in manufacturing defense systems?? Won't this raise the cost of the defense equipments??

Why should the Indian taxpayer foot the bill for these inefficient Indian companies to develop capabilities with assistance from foreign companies?? Isn't this another form of theft that is being encouraged by the uber corrupt Govt Of India in the name of our holy cow "defense"??

Wouldn't it be far cheaper to import the final product from the foreign companies under ToT to Govt Institutions which have been manufacturing such systems for decades??

We need to get rid of this kleptocratic Govt Of India which has been favoring few castes and communities since the birth of this nation at the cost of well being of the entire country.

dashu said...

mr Anonymous @ June 14, 2012 12:01 PM above
Reason is very simple those so called DPSU failed miserably for many decades ... only hope is private companies now . and they will do wonders given a chance . if u still cannot get it then its ....

dashu said...

sir app toh Indian Army ko virtually nanga kardiye . those comments are very apt for the Indian Army, sadly though.

Anonymous said...

@Dashu,

"Given a chance"...these Indian Companies in collusion with uber corrupt Govt of India, will stop competition in the name of "socialism" and acquire antiquated tech from the very same foreign companies which they stop to compete in India, and sell that stuff at inflated prices for decades as there is no competition while paying pittance to employees who work in these slave factories.

"Given a chance"...let them manufacture their own stuff and compete with everyone...not force the best out of competition thru dubious practices....and then force those very same foreign companies to part with their technology at inflated prices....and sell that same stuff to our armed forces after rebranding them as "indigenous" product.

In the end it is the gullible taxpayer who is being robbed in the name of defense. Is it any wonder that India prospered the moment GOI stepped out of way in the name of "liberalisation" in early 90s???

Anonymous said...

Prasun in your latest Leopard Pic. There are two compact launchers mounted on either side of the tank. (Each with 10 small hole launchers) What are these ? Grenade launchers ?
Hey they have Large rear view mirror !!! That's technology or shall we say common sense simplified for you

Anonymous said...

TO Anon 12:01 or 12:51.
Are you suffering from "Short time memory loss" or "Obsessive Compulsive Disorder" or may be both ?

Go through previous threads then you will realize where the fault lies.

1) The TATRA-BEML trucks it self shows what a disaster it is to go for
"Wouldn't it be far cheaper to import the final product from the foreign companies under ToT to Govt Institutions which have been manufacturing such systems for decades??
"
approach.

2) There are many more such cases coming out from DPSU's. There is joke in defense circle about recent Radar purchase by armed forces supplied by DPSU where the only Made in India item is the "Made in India" name plate.

3) Mazagon Dock in-spite of thousands of crores of investment in new facilities and equipment works on Single shift a day (9 AM to 5PM) Pipavav works 3 shifts a day 24 hours. Who do you think will perform better.

If you want to improve present state of defense affairs. Take MOD out of DPSU's management, make them public listed companies giving them autonomy. DPSU's will see some marked changes. Sell the un-viable white elephants. Perform or Perish should be applied universally.

Make all acquisition process fair to Private and PSU alike.

For your "
"Given a chance"...these Indian Companies in collusion with uber corrupt Govt of India, will stop competition in the name of "socialism" and acquire antiquated tech from the very same foreign companies which they stop to compete in India, and sell that stuff at inflated prices for decades as there is no competition while paying pittance to employees who work in these slave factories.
"
argument what do you think BEML was doing with TATRA trucks. Selling outdated equipment for twice the price.

Take the case of the present Super power USA. How many Defence company's do you think the United States Government own. Who do you think manufactures their Stealth fighters, Nuclear Submarine and ICBMs....... definitely not government owned companies .

For crying out loud, get you facts straight before blogging.

Anonymous said...

@Anon 1.37 PM,

I guess you must have been hired by Nira Radia to white wash our uber corrupt Indian companies in these blogs which are beyond the control of our babu-neta-baniya mafia. No wonder almost all News TV channels have been bought by these coterie of business houses.

If you claim TATRA trucks are bad then it's you who needs his head to be checked. It's so good that even the Israelis are using this vehicle for their armed forces. Corruption has been institutionalized in our entire defense infrastructure due to corrupt politicians and bureaucrats (people who go to extreme lengths to join IAS for kickbacks and dowry).Therefore DPSUs are also getting embroiled. BTW, these corruption charges have been levelled by a person who does not know his own date of birth and was on the verge of starting a coup when he was not getting his 9 months extension. Now who is suffering from selective amnesia???

Regarding Mazagaon Docks Vs. Pipavav...working in shifts means nothing...almost all PSUs which are into large scale production works in 3 shifts. Pipavav is whining for defense and govt contracts bcoz they have not got any commercial contracts. Now why have they not been able to get any commercial contracts and why are they making a beeline for safe monopolistic sarkari contracts???????

As for the military industrial complex of USA or advanced nations...they are all pvt companies who have to stay afloat by competing in the open market and not thru creating monopolies with Govt aid. They invest in R&D and develop capabilities. They do not ask their Govt to splurge taxpayers money on them to acquire 2nd hand technologies from foreign companies . I have no issues of Indian Companies entering into defense contracts. But, they have to do that with their own stuff. Branding foreign stuff as their own and selling the same at inflated prices is pure crime.

Btw, BEML belongs to the people of this country whereas the Pvt Cos belong to few corrupt individuals who cannot even stand on their own feet without the help of equally corrupt GOI.

Anonymous said...

Since there is no roadlink between Indian Kashmir and Gilgit/Baltistan, will it be ever possible for India to occupy those areas by fighting a war?
Can the airforce drop one division worth of force there and give logistical support as well? How can transportation related issues be sorted out if India decides to occupy those areas by fighting a war?

Anonymous said...

Anon 2:45 PM"
I guess you must have been hired by Nira Radia to white wash our uber corrupt Indian companies in these blogs "

There is a stinging remark about Indians in Western Media. "That Indians are incapable of discussion at intellectual level. When they disagree instead of expressing their point they start accusing the credibility of the other. Calling them corrupt to downright cheats. Embarrassingly this is quite correct. Example your kindself. I won't be coming too such low level and acuse Congress party worker or related to one.

"If you claim TATRA trucks are bad then it's you who needs his head to be checked. It's so good that even the Israelis are using this vehicle for their armed forces"

So my dear know it all could you give me in approx breakdown of figures of Israeli Truck fleet. Whats their total fleet out of which how many are TATRA trucks ?
The TATRA model trucks which BEML supplied are termed outdated by none other than CBI. The trucks supplied are based on 80 technology. Where as improved models were available from TATRA itself in open market. So may be according to you CBI is also corrupt. Even after more than 20 years of supply TATRA lack A MRO facility in India.

I don't care who is born on what date. But what I do care is if hostilities break out with our neighbors imagine our TATRA trucks carrying missiles breakdown..... I guess it doesn't bother you that BEML is supplying trucks at twice the price to army then available in Market and the spare parts at 10 times the price. I don't know where your loyalties lie but I get bloody pissed when I see Left-Hand driven Agni/Prithvi/Pinaka TATRA carriers in Republic day Parade.

What prevented the MOD to go for open tender for such trucks. There are many options available in the market at much lower cost.

"Regarding Mazagaon Docks Vs. Pipavav...working in shifts means nothing...almost all PSUs which are into large scale production works in 3 shifts"

Mazagon docks has a order book of whopping 1 Lakh + crores with delivery dates beyond 2022....is this not large enough to increase production scale. If not this then what warrants 3 shifts a day ? Since you love DPSU try talking with the worker unions in Mazagon. You will get clear picture.

"Pipavav is whining for defense and govt contracts bcoz they have not got any commercial contracts"

Did you even googled Pipavav before blogging ?

"Pipavav has secured contracts for constructing 26 dry bulk cargo-carrying ships ordered by global fleet owners such as SETAF SAS of France, AVGI Maritime Services SA of Greece and Golden Ocean Group Ltd for a total value of $1.1 billion. Also it recently won $112 mn ONGC deal for 12 ships tender" I am guessing you never heard of the two 74.500 DWT Panamax Bulk Carriers they recently launched. The largest ships ever built in India.

And when the hell did Indian private company's asked GOI for money ? All they are seeking is level playing field where they are given fair chance.

P.S: Did you know that BEML uses Ashok Leyland stallion trucks. removes the badge of Stallion and insert BEML badge in its place.
By the way.
"Air India" also belongs to the people of India who are better off with-out it.

Mr. Ra 13 said...

Here your wise and comprehensive formula for the success is practically and technically the simplest and the best. But how does it ensures the competitiveness and the cost effectiveness thereof. Or is it possible that the dire competition sometimes creates more problems than it resolves and it needs to be overridden by the pure wisdom at the need of the times.

Anonymous said...

@Anon 4.21 PM

There is a stinging remark about Indians in Western Media.
------------------------------
Ho Ho Ho....I didn't know you had so low opinion of yourself that you have to take a pat on the back from redneck "western" media to prove your point instead of using your "intellect". Yet to get over your slave mentality. If you happen to be in US, just check the quality and content of their "media". Is it any wonder that few months back Hillary Clinton had expressed her anguish at the falling standards of western media and the inroads that Al Jazeera, Russia Today etc. are making in the space vacated by "western media"???


So my dear know it all could you give me in approx breakdown of figures of Israeli Truck fleet. --------------------------------
CBI is not corrupt?? Hahahaha I didn't know you are such an ignoramus. CBI is expert on trucks?? hahahahha I didn't know that....Has the technology behind 4 wheel, 6 wheel, 8 wheel drive etc. changed since 80's??
As far as trucks in Israeli Army is concerned...you think I will have all that details at my finger tips?? OK, I will ask a little bird to give me all that details...but till then, all I can tell you is that the Israelis were so impressed with these trucks which they captured from one of the Arab Armies that as soon as the cold war was over they inducted them in IDF.

I don't care who is born on what date. But what I do care is if hostilities break out with our neighbors imagine our TATRA trucks carrying missiles breakdown.....
--------------------------------

"My dear" you are talking like mad hatter...what's the link between somebody's date of birth and Tatra trucks??
If those trucks break down then our balle balle fauji sardarji truck drivers will get them on the road in a jiffy. So keep your cool, no need to get angry whenever you see a tatra truck.
If BEML, a PSU, is charging such high amounts...then what's happening with Tata and Ashok Leyland trucks???


Mazagon docks has a order book of whopping 1 Lakh + crores with delivery dates beyond 2022....
--------------------------------
Mazgaon is not the only ship building yard in the country friendo. Their are others too. Increasing shifts means increasing the size of manpower....and if you factor in salary of Govt employees then we will have to do a la Bhutto i.e. literally eat grass to make warships.


Did you even googled Pipavav before blogging ?
-----------------------------------
Google Pipavav? (Sounds like Vadapav :).....no sonny..I read "pink papers". That news that you have copied and pasted so religiously is from April 2009...good 3 years old. Just look at their name "Pipavav Defense and Off Shore Engg Ltd."... meaning created solely with an eye for monopolistic and lucrative sarkari Indian Navy and ONGC orders. If they have such large orders... why and what is the need to tie up with DCNS of France for building warships?? Who is bankrolling this tie up??

Anonymous said...

Contd from above.......

And when the hell did Indian private company's asked GOI for money ? All they are seeking is level playing field where they are given fair chance.
---------------------------------
Your definition of "level playing field" is like Indian Mkt prior to 1990s i.e. prior to when we were forced to pawn our gold to borrow money to buy fuel and food... stop all external competition.....India's mkt to be dominated by few Indian business houses (specializing in running slave factories) in collusion with politicians who are seemingly supposed to represent the unwashed and illiterate masses but are in reality the new feudal Rajahs.
....all external investments to be routed only thru such corrupt and bloated companies (which is more or less still happening)....if foreign companies want to sell any product without the crutches of such Indian companies who can't even make a decent screw, then suddenly the "playing field" becomes "uneven".


"Air India" also belongs to the people of India who are better off with-out it.
---------------------------------
India's foreign reserves are in good condition largely due to the money repatriated by millions who toil in sub human conditions in gulf countries or the millions made by our "IT" companies where hundreds of thousands listen to abuses at midnight.
When there is war....it is Air India which Air lifts these people from the war zone. If you have to fly to remote corners of the country..then it is the same Air India that comes to your service...it is easy to insult something that you take for granted

Anonymous said...

http://www.idsa.in/issuebrief/TransformationoftheIndianAirForceovertheNextDecade_vkapur

It says here that IAF may procure 350-450 Tejas fighters!!hope it will be reality...u said 150

Anonymous said...

Anon 9:07

"Ho Ho Ho....I didn't know you had so low opinion of yourself that you have to take a pat on the back from redneck "western" media to prove your point instead of using your "intellect"."

Your outburst shows how immature you are when it comes to debate. The first thing you do in any discussion is to listen what is being said, consider the facts, weigh them accordingly by their merits. Your remark "I guess you must have been hired by Nira Radia "
Was spoken like true politician. Just like the ones who run this country. Blame any one and every one who comes to mind..........regarding the Western remark I mentioned. To say it simply,it is true. Weather you like it or not, it doesn't change truth. I only have low opinion about guys like you. Your meaningless arguments speak for themselves. There are many more like you at the Bharat rakshak site. Try them.
When it comes to truth Gandhi ji openly admitted in his biography he is a coward, he didn't cover it up, made some excuse.....just said its the truth. Satyamev jayate
-----------------------------------
CBI is not corrupt?? Hahahaha I didn't know you are such an ignoramus. CBI is expert on trucks?? hahahahha I didn't know that....Has the technology behind 4 wheel, 6 wheel, 8 wheel drive etc. changed since 80's??"

Either you are completely ignorant about automobiles or just pretending to be one for argument sake. One need not do a Phd to know whats current tech & whats outdated. For your question just read the link below. They don't agree with you so probably they are also corrupt right !!!

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/tatra-truck-indigenisation-claim-of-beml-a-hogwash-omni-pol/1/186621.html

-----------------------------------
"As far as trucks in Israeli Army is concerned...you think I will have all that details at my finger tips?? OK, I will ask a little bird to give me all that details..."

Exactly my point. Stop stating facts as if the entire Israeli IDF is using only TATRA trucks. My point was TATRA supplied IA with outdated trucks where as they themselves sell better models in open market.

---------------------------------
""My dear" you are talking like mad hatter...what's the link between somebody's date of birth and Tatra trucks??"

Again exactly my point.When the point of discussion was TATRA-BEML, why did you raise the Date of Birth of COAS issue. How does it matter who raised the issue. It was bound to come-out one way or the other.

---------------------------------
"If those trucks break down then our balle balle fauji sardarji truck drivers will get them on the road in a jiffy. So keep your cool, no need to get angry whenever you see a tatra truck"

Now you sound like a gloating pakistani......laughing at IA for its troubles.

--------------------------------

"If BEML, a PSU, is charging such high amounts...then what's happening with Tata and Ashok Leyland trucks???"

Don't you even got a vague idea of the prices involved. I can give you more links but let Prasun answer your question after all its his blog.

--------------------------------

"Mazgaon is not the only ship building yard in the country friendo. Their are others too. Increasing shifts means increasing the size of manpower....and if you factor in salary of Govt employees then we will have to do a la Bhutto i.e. literally eat grass to make warships. "

Increasing efficiency and increasing manpower are two different issues. Who said every one working in a PSU is a employee. Go and look around you will be surprised to find the number of contract workers employed everywhere.
----------------------------

Anonymous said...

Contd from above.

'. That news that you have copied and pasted so religiously is from April 2009...good 3 years old. Just look at their name "Pipavav Defense and Off Shore Engg Ltd."... meaning created solely with an eye for monopolistic and lucrative sarkari Indian Navy and ONGC orders."

So you want only the inefficient and ever late DPSU to hold the monopoly for defense deals. Let the DPSU and private shipbuilders compete in open tender and let the best one win. The only monopoly which existed till now is of the DPSU's. By bringing in competition you are breaking DPSU monopoly.

-----------------------------
"why and what is the need to tie up with DCNS of France for building warships?? Who is bankrolling this tie up??"

Hahahhaha Are you saying that GOI is bankrolling the tie-up ?

---------------------------------
"Your definition of "level playing field" is like Indian Mkt prior to 1990s i.e. prior to when we were forced to pawn our gold to borrow money to buy fuel and food... stop all external competition.....India's mkt to be dominated by few Indian business houses (specializing in running slave factories) in collusion with politicians who are seemingly supposed to represent the unwashed and illiterate masses but are in reality the new feudal Rajahs.
....all external investments to be routed only thru such corrupt and bloated companies (which is more or less still happening)....if foreign companies want to sell any product without the crutches of such Indian companies who can't even make a decent screw, then suddenly the "playing field" becomes "uneven"."

In the period you mentioned only DPSU were making or assembling defense equipment in most of the cases.

-----------------------------
"When there is war....it is Air India which Air lifts these people from the war zone. If you have to fly to remote corners of the country..then it is the same Air India that comes to your service...it is easy to insult something that you take for granted"

IAF can easily deploy IL-76, C-130 Hercules to do the job or plainly commandeer a passenger aircraft from any airline in India and reimburse them later for their services. You don't need to own a airline to do that. Let say you got struck in some battle torn location and Air India employees are on strike.......which they do most of the time.......you will find your irony there.
-----------------------------

"If you have to fly to remote corners of the country..then it is the same Air India that comes to your service"

All the civil aviation ministry need to do is make it mandatory for domestic airlines to operate certain no of flights to remote locations. The ministry is actually coming out with a similar rule.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Anon@11.36AM: Regarding P.1, YES, provided a hardpoint is equipped with a munitions control unit (NCU) & pylon interface unit. Regarding P.2, both can, depending on what configuration the aircraft operator/owner wants. On P.3, the M88-9 will be made available to the IAF if required. Regarding P.4, you need to talk to an industrial engineer & seek details on what planning/processes come into play when ordering long-lead items.

To Anon@11.53AM: Is the Rafale qualified to operate from ski ramp-equipped aircraft carriers? Will the INS Vikramaditya & IAC-1 be equipped with the kind of long-range navigation systems & related data-link interfaces required for interfacing with the mission avionics of both the Rafale & MiG-29K? Will the INS Vikramaditya & IAC-1 both be equipped with the kind of dedicated maintenance bays & product support storage bays required for the Rafale, since at the time of contract signature for procuring both the INS Vikramaditya & IAC-1, no one in India even knew which M-MRCA would be selected? Dind answers for these & your P.1 will be answered. On P.3, this is incorrect. In P.4, the P-15A DDG will carry two twin torpedo launchers capable of launching the heavyweight Varunastra torpedoes. Regarding P.5, where is the AEW variant of the V-22? It does not exist as of now, since it remains only a paper design.

To Anon@12.01PM: Who says India’s private-sector companies have no expertise in the military-industrial front? And who says they’re inefficient? Can this be proven? If that was the case, then construction of highly complex weapons platforms like the S-2/3/4 SSBNs wouldn’t have been undertaken by the likes of L & T. It is the DRDO itself today that is clamouring for the private sector to be treated by the MoD as ‘systems developers’ for the new generation of systems like the Tactical Communications System (TCS), the Integrated EW System, Battlespace Management System (BMS) etc. As for the DPSUs, can anyone even identify a Mk2 variant of the original Mk1 variant which was licence-built through ToT? Regretably, the malaise runs much deeper and can be explained only by comparing the growth of the Indian DPSUs with those of countries like South Korea, Taiwan & China, & asking why the military-industrial infrastructures of these three countries are far ahead than that of India. And talking of ToT for DPSUs, the problem is that these DPSUs & the MoD have never asked for the kind of ToT that will enable these DPSUs to innovatively come up with indigenous product substitutes. And that’s what the TATRA scam is all about. It was never an issue of cutting-edge or obsolete technology, but about BEML’s inability since 1986 to establish a chain of after-sales product-support facilities.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Dashu: Ab tak pura nanga nahin kiya. Lekin karunga aane wale dino mein.

To Anon@1.01PM: Those are countermeasures dispensers. Rear-view mirrors are used for the loading/unloading processes whenever the MBT has to be ferried from its storage area to its staging area by road or rail, and not in the actual battlefield.

To Anon@1.37PM: The fundamental problem is an administrative one: The MoD’s Dept of Defence Production & Supplies (DDPS) is legally responsible only for the sustainable well-being of the DPSUs. Necessary legislation needs to be enacted to make the DDPS accountable for the performance & growth of the country’s national defence industrial infrastructure. Only after this is done will the mindset change & one will be able to witness the emergence of a level playing field that focuses on win-win business strategies.

To Anon@3.06PM: In the event of war, as far as offensive operations go, the only viable way of making advances in the Northern Areas is through an air-assault division (& not an airborne division) that is for the most part heli-borne, with the IAF’s fixed-wing air transportation assets only playing a logistical support role. But for this to happen, the Army Aviation Corps would require its own fully integrated elements of attack helicopters in large numbers so that the entire Division-sized air-assault formation can commence operations with a high degree of strategic surprise ( i.e. choosing & deciding the why, how, when & where, so that the enemy is paralysed by ‘shock & awe). In fact, this is exactly what was planned by Army HQ way back in 1986 & the then Minister of State for Defence Arun Singh had even committed to this plan in writing, and this is why I have consistently clamoured for the attack helicopters to be transferred from the IAF to the Army. To me, creation of such an omni-role/omni-directional air-assault formation is far more urgently reqd than the creation of a mountain strike corps.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Mr.RA 13: VMT. Data on global performance competitveness & cost-competitiveness can always derived from international benchmarking, a technical/financial audit process that should begin right after receiving the RFIs. Such data is easily available from friendly countries that have already acquired such weapon systems. The PRC, just like Russia, on the other hand acquires such data through international industrial espionage & then uses such data for drafting the GSQRs for its indigenous product solutions that preclude the need for multi-vendor on-field competitive trials. In India’s case, since the hardware to be selected is not available in prototype form (requiring a labourious process of field trials) but to the contrary is a fully developed product (as is the case with all field howitzer procurement projects for the Indian Army), the need of the hour is the conduct of exhaustive technological/financial evaluations of all detailed project proposals, followed by an industrial performance audit of interested foreign vendors & their Indian partners, & finally & most importantly, dividing the cake in a manner that is beneficial not just to the end-user of the hardware, but also contributes to the financial well-being military-industrial entities (be it DPSUs or the private-sector), with the mandatory stipulation being that imported technology assimilation & future growth enhancements/improvements take place in a time-bound manner.

Mr. Ra 13 said...

Again what a simple and comprehensive answer. Hope they are listening to you notwithstanding them being intensively busy in the process of the selection/election of the C-I-C.

Anonymous said...

Prasun babu nanga maat kijiye -jab tak jawano jangia pehene huye hain Bhartiya sarkar unko apna peepee ko modern submachine carbine jaysa istemal karne ka command nahin denge.jis waqt aap fauji ko nanga karenge the babus would advise the govt why procure new weaponry when they can use their own peepee to shoot!Hope you get my sarcasm.

Anonymous said...

equating India and US in the industrial mindset is childish. USA has a relegious mindset of appreciating invention (and not innovation). One of the best example is handing over the aircraft design and production to the private sector as early as 1920s which proved extremely successful. Even today NASA is asked to do the cutting edge research only and not being tasked for doing daily chores as to replenish ISS but to actively think out of the solar system. Hence a viable industry which thrives on R&D has taken shape and the best talents from India or even Namibia head there.
on the other hand India has no history of serious R&D in private sector (ok except a few for counters) since we donot have a mindset of appreciating invention. Rather we do innovate some things to make it better or cheaper. But that doesnt augur well in small volume high quality but time sensitive defense market. It will works in largescale production like in generic medicine.
Private companies will not do philanthropy if they want to survive. a private player will risk money in R&D only if he has a chance of huge profit if it works. When cutting edge technology is available (and preferred) from abroad it is not feasible to do it in India. We are at best modest in our ambitions and futuristic appliances are unlikely to come up from India even in near future.

ASEAN and China has a strong mindset of mass production (again lacking in India may be except in automobiles) and reverse engineering is not considered bad. Samsung and LG came up not as original producers but as market producers. Now they are bigwigs.

for India it is better to opt for a compromised formula- a) Govt or its prodcution facilities compete with another govt agency even at basic stages of design (like USSR)and the winner takes all.
b) Private players asked to develop or produce futuristic things on short term assured basis with mile stone (like US) that acheive milestone 1 - that much money is released. The no cost no commitment is not helpful to involve private players.
Both government and private players are required in our scenario as we are neither US nor NKorea.Both have their merit and demerit.

Anonymous said...

Sir, I am anon at 11:53 AM. Tahnx for replying.
1.I will be waiting for your ans to all those questions.
2.What will be the likely complement of IAC-1. Whats the max no helos and MiG-29k it can carry and sustain?
3.So the aemamement of the Kolkata class is:
• Anti-ship: 4× 4-cell BrahMos UVLM
• Air-defence: 2× 32-cell VLS Barak 8
• CIWS: 2× 30 mm AK-630 gatling guns + 4× 8 cell Barak 1
• Anti-submarine warfare: 2 twin heavyweight Varunastra and 2× RBU-6000
If so, then its some serious firepower.If really there is some Tomahawk type subsonic terrain hugging cruise missile in developement by DRDO, then 16-24 VLS for that would be good.
4.I think,the P-15B DDG will come with a even heavier armament including LACMs. They will be far more stealthy.(Just pure guesss from various press reports)
5.Why do the DDGs of the Indian Navy have such small displacement , not more than 6200 tons. Whereas all Western DDG and those of Japanese Navy and Republic of Korea Navy have mucg higher displacement->8000 tons.Although in some cases the IN ships are heavily armed.
6. Why dont the IN ships possess some ASROC system?
7.Will the sensors of the Kolkata class be -
IAI EL/M-2248 MF-STAR Multi-mission radar (Active Electronically Scanned Array)
IAI EL/M-2238 L-band STAR surveillance radar
BEL HUMSA-NG sonar
BEL RAWL-02 /Thales LW-08 D-band air search radar ,aft
BEL Nagin active towed array sonar,
BEL Electronic Modular Command & Control Applications (EMCCA Mk4) combat management system

Anonymous said...

Hi Prasun,with respect to Rafale
1.The Rafale has 14 hrdpnts. EF typhoon has 13. So Rafale mustb be able to carry an extra AAM.
2.Does any hrdpnt on the Rafale supports more than a single AAM/
3.U said regarding P2 both can depending on the configuration the customer wants. Now what are these configurations? I knew of Tranches. U being an aviation MRO and have been in this field for a long time. U have developes many friends at some high places and u must have access to info that is not available to the masses.
4.The Rafale has 5 heavy-wet hrdpnts.It can carry only 4 Storm Shadow,Tauras, Harpon, Exocet.The Typhoon on the other hand can carry six of them. Also the max weapons payload of Rafale is greater than the Typhoon at 9.5 t. It seems a bit ironical.
5. If the IAF wants, cant Dassault strengthen some other hardpoints to permit the carraige of six Apache, Tauras, Harpoon or other heavy ordance.Afterall when IAF is buying so many of them it will be able to customize them to meet its own demands.
Pls reply

Anonymous said...

sir ,
y do u insist so much on new artillery guns be air transportable..
with a fleet of 12-18 super hercules,16 c17a,& 20-24 il-76..how many guns cud actually be tranported by air during crisis?
when these aircraft cud be busy in thousands of other works..
isn't it that to reduce the mobilisation time most of the units wud be reallocated closer to the borders..in this case isn't it prudent that only guns that wud be used in mountains be air tranportable..
though most guns cud be SP,MGS etc but why should they be air transportable ?

Anonymous said...

sir,
can u plzz tell in brief the difference between a SP ,wheeled , tracked , mounted guns systems..
what are the requirements of the army for each gun ?

Anonymous said...

Prasun more updates and pics plz

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Anon@10.16AM: Answers to P.1 are obvious & do not need any more clarifications from me. 2. Aircraft complement for IAC-1 will be the same as that of INS Vikramaditya. 3. The Indian navy, unlike the US Navy, is not entrusted with the task of waging deep battles within the AirSeaLand scenario & therefore does not require long-range LACMs. 4. Therefore, even the P-15B DDGs won’t have LACMs on board. 5. The displacement is optimum, bu for P-15B DDGs there’s a need for all gas turbine propulsion, so that the space saved can be used for VLS cells for Prahaar-type NLOS-BSMs. 6. Where’s the need for ASROC when on-board lightweight/heavyweight torpedoes are already available? 7. There won’t be any Nagan on-board as it & the Mihir has been rejected by the IN.

To Anon@8.20PM: 2. As I explained yesterday, it is up to the customer to specify what kind of pylon arrangement it wants. It is all about electronic interfacing with the open-architecture avionics suite. 4. Let us first see the advent of the Typhoon’s multi-role variant before jumping to conclusions about its load of PGMs. 5. As I said earlier, it is all up to the customer to decide which weapons configurations are reqd. There are no constants.

To Anon@10.11PM: The re-location of IA’s armour/field artillery detachments close to border locations has been turned down by the MoD. What was approved was only the setting up of new cantonments to house the personnel and this too won’t happen before 2022. One can never take the risk of forward deploying all hardware assets close to hostile borders as they will always be targetted for destruction by pre-emptive strikes from the air. The same foes for MGS, since the border-roads network won’t come up until the next decade. There’s no difference between what roads existed in Tawang in the 1960s with what exists now. Nothing’s changed. Consequently, the option available option left for rapid deployment is the use of the IAF’s air transportation aircraft assets.

accidental loser said...

hey prasun, sorry fr ths off-the-topic ques. well in one of your last posts u suggested the lch should be modified in the lines of cobra zulu and the tricycle landing gear attachment should be done away for a landing skid typ 1 as in case of A/H-1Z. Bt i do suspect tht the crashworthyness standard wud go down too compared to reverse tricycle typ 1s. wht's ur view?

An Indian said...

Prasun da,

What's your analysis regarding ongoing Presidential Poll and Pranab Mukherjee's selection as candidate by Sonia..?

My analysis is as below..

-Sonia Gandhi was facing a double edged sword on whether to select Pranab Mukherjee or Not.

Why..?

-- US and it's allys in Congress,are hell bent on making Rahul Gandhi as next PM..since he has short memory (He is not aware of past policies of US and Russia ..and how they behaved with India..on critycal situations)and hence in the name of making a Young PM..they are trying clear the way for Rahul.

--Otherwise it's Pranab mukherjee who will become next PM for Congress...has been a Nationalis Politician...have guts to say what is good for India and what is not.
Remember..? how a single statement Pranab Ji said and it sounded negative about US(when he was Foreign Minister) and next day he was removed and made Finance Minister.

-I understood once when asked about which comes first 1.The Country or 2.The Party...to Pranab Mukherjee...he answered ..always Country comes first. That means if he sees anything/policies going wrong made by PM or Cabinet...he will pull Army and remove those in power ,without hesitation. I feel has really has guts to do that.

--Also has a FinMin he never bowed down on Policies like FDI in Retail and other critical sectors,without making Indian vendors/companies self reliant on their respective fields ..he believes that as Indian vendors or Company...they have first right to set their foot in the Indian business firmly before allowing foregin Multi Nationals (who already has a big pocket and firm grip in the international markets and products). Hence he has annoyed Big supre powers also ..and these Super Powers too wanted him to remove Pranab Ji from his current post of Finance Minister.

--Mamta knows this game and hence has not supported this move...Mulayam,Mayabati and Lalu also knows these ...but they rely hugely on foreign funds and fear CBI and hence can not afford to OPPOSE Congress.

I spoke to lots of people here and all seems to agree and knows these Facts and Game.

What do you say ?

Mr. Ra 13 said...

What are the latest design improvements on Leopard, especially those that are not expected to find a place on Arjun-Mk2.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Accidental Loser: If that were to be the case, then the IAF’s Dhruv Mk3 now being used for high-altitude logistics support/CASEVAC sorties too should have done away with the existing skids in favour of tricycle landing gear, don’t you think? Why then is the Dhruv Mk3 & its helicopter gunship variant, the Dhruv Mk4 (Rudra), still equipped with skids?

To An Indian: If you’re a believer in conspiracy theories, then why limit it to only the US as the principal beneficiary? After all, according to some Russian historians that had access to KGB archives, it was the KGB that opened a bank account in Switzerland in the early 1980s in the name of Rahul Gandhi to make political payments in return for the then Indian PM Mrs Indira Gandhi resorting to large-scale procurements of Soviet-origin weapons for the Indian armed forces, a trend which was continued by Rajiv Gandhi right up to 1989? So what makes one think that only the US, and not, Russia, is the intended beneficiary???

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Mr.RA 13: Actually, we’re all counting the chickens before they’re hatched if we want to speculate about what will not go on board the Arjun Mk2, simply because the Arjun Mk2 is still in the design-and-development phase. What’s being tested now is the Arjun Mk1A, which on paper—according to the previous COAS Gen (Ret’d) V K Singh—fully meets the Indian Army’s stringent GSQRs (that’s what he said on record in the January 2012 issue of FORCE magazine). The Arjun Mk2, which will for all intents & purposes will become the FMBT, will have all the enhancements that we now see on the ‘avatar’ of the Leopard 2; namely an integrated all digital vectronics suite that includes various situational awareness & self-protection aids; plus the 1,500kp powerpack. But one must note the fact that future wars will not be platform-centric, but network-centric, in which the platform will only function as good as the network-centric system of systems is in place, i.e. for all long as the Indian Army does not field the Tactical Communications Systems (TCS)—which is already running 16 years behind schedule—all other critical sub-components like the BMS, BSS, I-EWS, I-ELINT & F-INSAS will all remain as still-born projects. In other words, if the communications channel itself is not available, then of what use is the availability of all other networks (like the BMS, BSS, I-EWS, I-ELINT & F-INSAS) that require such a communications channel for optimum functioning & networking?

By the way, have you read this wildly hilarious piece at: http://defenceexpress.blogspot.in/2012/06/reactor-put-in-ins-arihant-for-first.html
Mind you, this is the same ‘desi’ reporter who had first claimed that the Arjun MBT’s 120mm main gun has
been supplied by Rheinmetall of Germany (see: http://defenceexpress.blogspot.in/2012/04/mod-focus-on-big-purchases-while-army.html). In reality, what has been achieved is the loading or insertion of reactor fuel into the Arihant’s PWR for achieving criticality, & not the physical insertion of the PWR into the Arihant’s hull (LoLZ!!!!) The mind just boggles at the sheer ineptitude displayed by such ‘desi’ reporters’.

Mr. Ra 13 said...

Reactor fuel can be confused with the PWR, as a bullet can be confused with a gun and the petrol can be confused with a car. Lol...

BTW the making of Arjun 120 Gun in India and its success has been considered a miracle by some writers. This miracle may be getting bloated with the negative thinking that it must have been supplied by Germany.

Anonymous said...

Prasun,
you have to pardon the reporter of the express news for not understanding the news well,but as is mentioned in the blog its aim is to bring the news to laymen and to some extend she is doing a fine job. atleast unlike other bloggers (you know who) she is not ardently arguing in depth of the news with intense lobbying.Ignorance can be excused but it will be criminal to sit on ignorance and being belligerent on the issue.
good to know that some progress is going in the Arihant as well

radha said...

HI Prasun

Nw Rheinmetal has been blacklisted as well, we alll know that it is the best gun based AD in the world with ahead ammo.Now if the MOD goes on blacklisting all the companies in the world we will be left with some 3 rd tech companies, is moral high ground going to win wars?? politicians do not send their betas to the forces so it is convenient to black list . Pakistan has got 200 rheinmetal giuns and 60 of them are converted to fire ahead ammo , ther si going to be a lot od damage to our AC.
what we cud do is ask the black listed cos to pay an amount equal to the bribe estimated to be back in the fray , th at would solve the problem and we cud also get the best tech.

F said...

Prasun,

The current issue of erjurit has reported that this yeaar's Cope Taufan withthe USAF, the USAF was not keen on using the RMAFs leased ACMI pods on their F-15s as the radar freuncies would have been comprised and would bee known to the RMAF. Is this even technically possible?

In your opinion, which platform has a superior all weather strike capability - the F/A-18D with a NAVFLIR pod or the Su-30MKM with Damocles?

What advantage is to be gained from having FLIR imagery displayed on a HUD as opposed to a display in the cockpit? Are any of China's Su-27s, J-11s and Su-30MKKs fitted with a holographic HUD?

What was the rationale in the RMAF getting Chobham refuelling pods, given the Su-30MKMS have sufficient internal fuel a considerable distance over the South China Sea, even with a full weapons load, and that unlike the IAF, the RMAF will have no requirement for very long range strikes?

Are you still of the opinion that RAM and gun CIWS are incapable of engaging supersonic missiles? What about ESSM and ASTER 15?

Has any official reason been given by the Indian MOD as to why Skyranger/Skyshield was rejected - was it due to technical reasons? Unlike Skyranger which fires AHEAD rounds, Artemis does not gire 'smart' rounds.

Anand said...

Hi Prasun,

Regarding the story of insertion of PWR onboard Arihant as reproted definately puzzled me.So will they now commence trials with the PWR which has now gone critical.By the way do u hav any news on the development of the K-4 SLBM??

Regards,
Anand.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Radha: What you’re suggesting is pragmatic & should have been implemented as policy since the late 1980s with regard to both Bofors AB & TMS/HDW and consequently the Indian Army by the late 1990s had 1,410 FH-77Bs while the Indian navy would have had a total of six Class 209/Type 1500 SSKs as planned. But in the corridors of power in Delhi, pragmatism doesn’t always prevail, especially when it’s reqd the most and we all are now witness to the mess created by successive govts since the mid-1980s. The ideal way forward—in case of contracts already inked—would be to confront the OEM concerned with concrete evidence of political payments/political commissions paid in clear breach of the contract’s ‘integrity clause’ & demand & secure the payback of such payments back to the MoD as ‘liquidated damages’. In Rheinmetall Air Defence’s (RAD) case, where no contract has yet been signed (and consequently no Indian law has been broken), all that the MoD ought to do is give RAD a rap on its knuckles and demand that it start back again on a clean slate in partnership with TATA Power SED, & instead go heavy against Abhishek Verma & Co.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To FARIS: That is indeed possible, since the RMAF’s ACMI pods are interfaced with the ground debriefing station that will be used to play back the dissimilar air combat scenarios and all the recorded data (including airborne radar parameters) will have to be displayed as well. Instead, the norm during all such international exercises is to allow all participating air forces to bring in their own ACMI pods that are pre-programmed to record and display only those selected aircraft performance parameters that the participating air force desires to share with other friendly air forces. The IAF did this in 2007 when its Su-30MKIs took part in EX Red Flag in the US, & it also took the extra precaution of using its NO-11M ‘Bars’ PESA-based multi-mode radars in a secure ‘practice sortie’ mode. So that its full operational parameters were not revealed.
Between the F/A-18D & Su-30MKM, both are more or less equal in terms of all-weather strike capabilities, but in terms of survivability, the Su-30MKM would come up tops as it has the missile approach warning system (MAWS), which the F/A-18D doesn’t.
FLIR imagery displayed on a HUD is ONLY advantageous when engaging in terrain-hugging/terrain-masking flight profiles, as this enhances manifold the aircrew’s situational awareness, thanks to the aircrew continuing to look ahead and around all the time, instead of glancing below into the head-down AMLCDs. But for air-to-ground PGM strikes using LDPs, display of the FLIR imagery on a head-down display is perfectly all right. As regards China, only the J-11Bs, J-10s & now the J-20 have holographic HUDs.
For the RMAF, Cobham aerial pods are reqd for buddy-buddy aerial refuelling of the Su-30MKMs whenever they’re undertaking extended-period combat air patrols over the Sulu Sea & over the offshore islands/reefs/shoals north of Labuan. The RMAF will never fly long-range offensive air strikes just along a straight line as the crow flies, but will use circuitous terrain-masking routes so as to retain the element of surprise. Hence the reqmt for buddy-buddy aerial refuelling pods.
RAM can take on supersonic ASCMs PROVIDED sufficient early warning is provided by a US Navy-type cooperative engagement capability, which utilises a very high degree of sensor fusion techniques/capacities. The same foes for ESSM & Aster 15. Therefore, in the not-to-distant future, expect the RSN to acquire some form of standoff shipborne AEW capability, since the new generation of helicopter-borne multi-mode search radars are of the AESA-type, which can handle a variety of interleaved functions all at the same time (i.e. synchronised multi-tasking).
As to why the Skyranger/Skyshield is being treated as ‘rejected’, it has nothing to do with technical parameters. Read this: http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-06-09/india/32139960_1_abhishek-verma-defence-firms-rheinmetall-air-defence

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Anand: All this confusion has arisen because the ‘desi’ nitwit of a news reporter failed to use the words ‘fuel rods’ after the word ‘reactor’!!!! In addition, no PWR uses highly enriched uranium, instead it is only between 24% & 45% enriched. It takes about two weeks for the PWR to go fully critical. And as I had explained earlier, there’s a direct connection between the delayed sea-trials of the Arihant and the arrival of INS Chakra. Since the Chakra can operate at the same submerged depth as the Arihant, the Chakra will be used primarily to escort the Arihant out to sea and keep the area of the sea-trials under constant surveillance so as to give advance warning of other SSNs (from the navies of the US, or China, or the UK) that may be interested in monitoring the Arihant’s sea-trials. Later on, as the Arihant after its commissioning heads out into deeper waters into the southern Indian Ocean or into the Arabian Sea, the Chakra again will be accompanying the Arihant. Therefore, the principal role of INS Chakra will be to act as a stealthy stalker, always on the lookout for hostile or interested undersea objects that may be in the immediate vicinity of the Arihant. The K-4 SLBM’s test-firing is still two years away.

KSingh said...

Prasun, with the apparent failure of the Kaveri wrt to the LCA integration is this complety the end of the Kaveri program and will all work now come to a stop and scientists be moved to other projects? And are there any other Indian engine program's on the horizon to build on the immense amount of knowledge gleaned from the Kaveri program? Ie will we ever see an Indian fighter with an Indian engine? And are any other application for the Kaveri being seriously developed (other than UAVs) and applied.



+ when will we see the full implementation of F-INSAS. And when will we see the first army units equipped with the new gear ie helmets, personal computers, futre rifles etc? And can you clear up exactly what rifle will be used in F-INSAS? As some say it is a domestic DRDO-developed rifle but as per RFIs sent out by IA it will be foreign designed.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To KSingh: I won’t classify the Kaveri turbofan’s R & D effort as a failure at all. For one, the marine gas-turbine version of the Kaveri is firmly on a path towards attaining maturity and will be able to power a new class of guided-missile corvettes and possibly larger warships due for procurement for the IN in the following decade. Secondly, the existing Kaveri turbofan can be easily used for powering UCAV/UAV variants of the Rustom-2, provided the DRDO and the three armed services have a frank chat about it and decide to proceed on a ‘mission-mode’. If this is done, then the Kaveri will get the opportunity to mature much more to be considered as an option for the AURA UCAV. As for indigenous turbofans for indigenously developed combat aircraft, it all boils down to how the proposed partnership between the DRDO/GTRE & Snecma Moteurs will work out.
Regarding F-INSAS, as I had explained above to Mr.RA 13, for as long as the Tactical Communications System (TCS) does not take off, F-INSAS too won’t take off. Full implementation of both TCS & F-INSAS will take close to a decade. The earliest pilot trials can take place only by 2016. In all probability, the assault rifles & carbines will be foreign-designed.

Anonymous said...

^^^
You are right about Tactical Communications System (TCS) does not take off, F-INSAS too won’t take off. But FINSAS will not just have a network, FINSAS will also require equipping soldiers with equipments that will run on this network and euipping a force of more than 1 million will take almost a decade. In short what everyone is asking are we equipping our army with these equipments like GPS, hand held computers etc. ??

A network will not just run by itself without the hardware interface.

joydeep ghosh said...

@prasun da

vmg

with respect to your reply to @KSingh on Kaveri Turbofan marine use i would like to tell that there were reports that work on them is on and their evaluation to power home built 28A corvettes, FACs, catamarans is very much on.

Also sometime back reports said DRDO was trying to miniaturize Kaveri engines for use in home built UAVs and if possible even 2 engine AMCA with slight enhancement to current Kaveri engine.

Btw whatever you said about INS Chakra and INS Arihant, do you expect Chakra to operate as a SSGN or SSN and Arihant as SSBN or SSGN with respect to k15 being a SLCM.

Just one querry sometime back you said about LCH not being a attack helo, whats the difference between attack helo like AH64D and combat helo like LCH, will be glad if clarified

thanks

Joydeep Ghosh

Anonymous said...

Prasunda,

When you say K-4 test firing 2 yrs away, do you mean K-4 test firing from INS Arihant ?

Has the K-4 been tested from a pontoon so far ? Firs test firing of K-4 in 2014 means induction by 2017 or so if all goes well. Will K-4 have MIRV ?

It is still not the final 6500-8500 k range SLBM we will develop. AFAIK. Will that SLBM be a further development of K-4 or a altogether new missile ?

bradshaw said...

Hi Prasun,

http://indrus.in/articles/2012/02/29/armata_instead_of_t-90_15001.html

According to the above report , Russia is developing a new tank ARMATA from T-90 and will be ready by 2013. According to some sources Russia is prssing India hard to license manufacture this tank instaed of T-90. My Question is 1. Is thi sa deliberate attempt by Russians to unsettle and finish the superior and indegenious Arjun MK-2 project ? 2. Do you have any performance and firepower details about this new tank ??

Anonymous said...

Sir, if IA's armoured brigades, artillery regiment and other field formations are deployed close to the Pakistani border, then there are chances of them getting destroyed by pre-emptive strike.
1.With Pakistan possessing ling range terrain hugging LACM,ALCM;TBM,IRBM, they can easily destroy the current garrison of most strike corps and other field formations. So whats the use of basing them away from the borders deep inside the country.
2.With a good IADS and adequate SAM coverage any air attack can be effectively detected and countered.

Anonymous said...

Hi Prasun, a few ques.
1.Whats the exact no of MiG-29 in service with the IAF. Because wiki states that 69 MiG-29 are being upgraded.
2.Whats the status of the MiG-27 fleet? Because some time ago,there was an article in India Today stating that the entire fleet has been grounded due to lack of spares and problems concerning the engine. Has this problem been solved?
3.There is an aperture in the nose of MiG-27.Is this the aperture of some IRST/FLIR or navigation and targeting system?
4.Will the IRST on board the MiG-29be upgraded as part of the UPG upgrade?Will it feature air-ground modes and will be as capable as the PIRATE IRST?
5.Will the upgraded An-32 have MAWS,chaff and flare dispenser,and DIRCM?Will it feature a terrain following radar and a FLIR pod like the one on board the C-130J so that it can fly in adverse weather conditions?
6.The Sukhois of the RMAF feature a maws.THen why doesnt the Indian ones have one?
7.Is the IAF buying 16 C-27 Spartan because in wiki it states that the IAF has shown interest in it.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Anon@9.05AM: Those kinds of hardware are already in service, especially with the RR battalions. But for a fully networked TacC3I running down from the Corps-level right down to the Battalion-level to become operational with such hardware will take at least a decade more to become operational.

To Joydeep Ghosh: For UAVs, GTRE has on-going R & D cooperation with Russia’s NPO Saturn for developing the Laghu Shakti family of miniaturized turbofans. For the AMCA, however, a turbofan far more advanced than the existing Kaveri will have to be sought. In submarines, the Chakra will be both a Hunter-killer SSN & a Klub-S-equipped SSGN ONLY for peacetime operations, as this submarine is only a ‘borrowed feather’ and therefore its operational autonomy is severely restricted, something which has since been written about & confirmed by several former IN Chiefs. The Arihant, on the other hand, will remain a technology demonstrator for as long as it isn’t armed with SLBMs capable of reaching the Chinese hinterland, this again being highlighted by former IN Chiefs in writing. Furthermore, the existing 83mW PWR of the Arihant won’t give the SSBN the kind of power output reqd for an operational SSBN. What’s reqd is a 200mW PWR, which is still 15 years away if it has to be developed indigenously—this again being the statement of the DAE way back in 2005. The K-15 too is for all intents and purposes just a technology demonstration programme, since a 750km-range hardly qualifies as a submarine-launched nuclear warhead-carrying deterrent with respect to either China or Pakistan. On helicopters, the LCH, given its very designation, is being optimised for shooting down UAVs at heights above 16,000 feet (this being its primary mission), with ground attack being the secondary mission. For attack helicopters, the only mission is that of air-to-ground attack using a variety of anti-armour PGMs.

To Anon@1.38PM: No, I mean test-firing from an undersea pontoon structure. Test-firings from the Arihant is expected to get underway by 2016, followed by service induction by 2019, if all goes well. K-4 won’t have MIRVs since even this SLBM can’t reach the Chinese hinterland. Arrival of the 6,500km-8,500km range MIRV-equipped SLBM is at least a decade away.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Bradshaw & Anon@3.11PM: The ARMATA will be a family of armoured vehicles all sharing the same hull, including Russia’s future MBT, future ICV, future ARV, future tracked SPH, etc. This is in line with Russia’s future warfighting doctrine, and the well-conceived conclusions have been scientifically drawn from an extended process of deliberations & operations analysis. In contrast, there’s no warfighting doctrine enunciated thus far by any Indian government against any particular adversary, and what would be the war aims/objectives of the Indian armed forces. Absence of such critical inputs from the MoD has resulted in the Indian armed forces only resorting guesswork to try to ‘read’ the mind of India’s ruling elite since late 1999, and then try to come up with probable warfighting doctrines. Thus, Limited Conventional War in 1999 gave way to Cold Start in 2004, & this gave way to Pro-Active Strategy in 2006, & now everyone is talking about Transformation. In reality, these are all notional concepts that have still not received any formal political sanction, & therefore issues like rapid deployment, forward-placement of equipment & manpower, raising of air-assault formations & mountain strike corps, raising of Army combat aviation brigades etc have all been stalled by the MoD over the past three years. Therefore, in the absence of any clarity emerging from the MoD, the armed forces of India can hardly be expected to engage in threat-based doctrinal evolution & provide conventional deterrence through integrated long-term perspective plans. Instead, very sadly, what is happening is that the armed forces have resorted to capability-based force modernisation plans, all of which will take a far longer time to reach fruition. Therefore, in conclusion, unless India’s conventional war objectives against a nuclear overhang are clearly defined & articulated, the subject of indigenous development of new-generation weapon systems will always be a gray area & no one will be able to arrive at logical conclusions on this subject. Only the Govt of India can clear up this gigantic & disastrous mess and facts on the ground lead me to believe that no one is willing to grab the bull by its horns as yet.

accidental loser said...

Yeah, but are n't they been designed for transport and logistics role as primary and gunship role as secondary from the very early mindset!! And the U.S. Army aviation did prefered the tricycle equipped Apache than skid equipped supercobra citing the enhanced crash tolerance as well as other features. So wud b better if u can specify the difference between tricycle and skid.
And regarding the APA mentions of the Adder being armed with backup anti-radiation seeker to defeat the jammer interfering it's primary active radar seeker, what's your take!!!!! Also if the case is true then how directional jammers wud fare against it?

Mr. Ra 13 said...

"and facts on the ground lead me to believe that no one is willing to grab the bull by its horns as yet."

Well said! A leaderless nation can only develop the defense of holding to one's own chair. Forget the defense of country by Tejas, Arjun, T90, MMRCA, FGFA, AMCA, SSGN, SSN and defend own chair.

F said...

Prasun,

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. Much appreciated!

After the MKMs made their first public appearence at the Merdeka Day celebrations in 2007, the editorial of Tempur mentioned that foreign ISR assets [probably RSAF E-2s] were loitering near Malaysian airspace hoping to pick up radio and radar frequencies from the MKMs. Foreigns vessels which were docked in Klang for the 50th anniversary celebrations were also reportedly using their onboard ESMs to do the same. Do you have any knowledge as to how accurate the claims of Tempur's editor was?

You mentioned previously that apart from the RMAF and the IAF, nobody has data for the actual flight parametres of the MKM and the MKI as nobody else operate both types. Surely if one was determined to get the data, it could be obtained by various means from Sukhoi or the manufacturer of the Al-31FP? And wouldn't the same apply to the combat frequency of the Bars N011M radar?

When one orders Cougars from Eurocopter, are flare/chaff dispensers a standard fit or do these have to be ordered seperately? And what about the Scorpene, does it come fitted with torpedo decoy dispensers?

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To accidental loser: Which model are you referring to? The LCH or Dhruv ALH? How can the LCH be designed for transport and logistics when it has only a two-man aircrew and has neither the internal volume for carrying cargo/personnel nor does it sport underslung cargo hooks or powered-winches? Skids are always lighter than tricycle landing gear and perhaps that’s why the LCH continues to be overweight.

To Anon@4.37PM: 63 MiG-29s are being upgraded. MiG-27Ms are still grounded. The MiG-27M’s nose section houses a laser rangefinder. MiG-29UPGs will have only air-to-air IRST sensors. No tactical transport aircraft sports MAWS or DIRCM. An-32s of the IAF are not used for special operations missions & as such don’t have FLIR pods or TFR. As part of the Super Su-30MKI mods, the Su-30MKIs will have MAWS. So far it has not yet been decided whether to procure C-27 or C-295 for the IAF.

To FARIS: Those claims are laughable at best (LoLz), & mischievous at worst! During public functions when such flypasts & aerobatic shows are staged, all mission-critical avionics are non-functional (since formation flying is done under VFR conditions), and since the airspace within which such RMAF are flying is civilian (and not restricted military airspace), all air traffic management & related comms is conducted on civilian frequencies with the DCA’s civilian ATC towers. Secondly, if you’re referring to attempts by someone to acquire data on the Su-30MKI or Su-30MKM by whatever means, it means that either the Russian counter-intelligence network both within & outside Russia ought to be pretty weak, or foreign espionage entities inside India & Malaysia must be pretty successful. On both counts, I very much doubt the veracity of such claims. Operating frequencies of the NO-11M Bars are programmed by the respective operators of the Su-30s—even the Russians don’t know what’s being used. Countermeasures dispensers on the EC-751 Cougar or even AW-101 or NH-90 are standard fit. For torpedo decoy dispensers, the Scorpene is capable of accepting any kind of dispenser that a customer may choose to order.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Mr.RA 13: An ailing President of the UPA-2 coalition, a lameduck & absentee PM, and an invisible/unwilling political heir for the Indian National Congress party can all only add up to as comatose govt-in-power.

accidental loser said...

Ok. That cud be a good reason, but what the tricycle provides is the external shock and damping absorbers which somehow cud tak the pressure of impact on a crash landing. This increases the chances of survival if something goes wrong. Also a wheeled helo could easily be maneuverable on the ground instead a skid type one. So what say prasun!!!!! i was talking about the ALH then and not about LCH. And hey, seems like u missed the second ques. abt AA-12's seeker. Do answer please!!!!!!!!!!

Anonymous said...

no one is willing to grab the bull by its horns as yet: true but instead what they are doing it trying to grab the bull by its balls and getting a massive kick in the jaw for the nation!One either hods the bull by its horn and wrings its neck as a gladiator OR plays childish games and hangs on to the bulls tail and gets a load of bulls*** LoL