dada when ins kolkata and kamrota 'll join navy?? Any updates?? And what abt barak2 'll it be ready by the time ins kolkata joins navy?? Thnks in adv..
To PINTU: VMT. Rest assured that many many more will be uploaded in the days ahead. This is the first time the SR-SAM's naval variant is being showcased through the above-uploaded poster.
To JYOTI SEN: Both will be commissioned later this year for sure. Yes, Barak-2 will be ready by then.
What form of technical assistance for the Fulcrums did the IAF provide to the RMAF at Pune? And since all the manuals were in Russian who's responsibility was it to have it translated for the RMAF or were translations provided by the IAF?
If a customer like the IN wanted to install a VLS module amidships in the Scorpene to free up all the tubes for mines/torps, would it be technically difficult and costly to do?
From what I've read Chile's Scoepenes do not have a watertight cofferdam section as its boats operate in deep waters but that since the RMN operates mostly withing the continental shelf, its 2 boats have a watertight cofferdam section. What about the IN's Scorpenes? And do the Kilos and Type 209s have it?
vmt for posting those snaps sir my qs. Is sir as u told before that army needs 155/52 cal howitzer but drdo is showcasing 155/45 cal howitzer so, is this also a dud project like prahar or 130 mm arjun mk1 hull mated sph. Or they are really intrested in it. 2)When are we going to see lch td3 3)some of troops are using tavor tar 21 and now ofb is making a indian version of it ZITTARA so can we presume that it will kill the drdo mcar gun. Thanks in advance
when will the ARJUN get a new RCWS? The current one destroys the looks of this otherwise dealt looking machine and really is far too big and cumbersome to be on top of a tank. You has said SAAB was in the running? Any updates?
Belated Happy Birthday...a bit too late may be, but nonetheless.
Thanks for the pics...waiting for more fodder...
Updates on Arjun/FMBT would be highly appreciated
Questions:
1. If you remember, i had asked about the centerline/underbelly pylon of the tejas in a previous post as i had never seen anything on it.Now there are reports that underbelly drop-tank integration has just started.Is there any truth to this?? Mr Anantha Krishnan seems to report so http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/2014/02/tejas-set-to-begin-high-altitude-trials.html (Please look at the 2nd last line of the post)
2. Do we have any MRSI capability as far as Artillery is concerned?
Prasun da, First day first show. Lucky you. Do you have any idea how much is the ticket for general visitors? Their website doesn't mention the price anywhere. Thanks
When you look at these pics it is easy to understand why the Indian Forces would prefer to import. Surely it makes more sense to licence produce one of the latest/top 155mm out there. I am sure singapore, BAE would be happy to oblige and they could be built in india. What is stopping india going down this route?
I mean honestly which other country would have a guy manually paint like that! Any developed country would have a spray gun with the operator dressed appropriately and paid better of course. Regardless of the ability it would be hard pressed to sell such a tank to anyone else - the QC oozes of uncertainty.
here's India developing cryogenic engine etc and yet in a simple International cricket tournament guys in thongs, or bare feet, wearing a dhoti or old khaki sweeping with a broom (those made of coconut sticks)- compare this with other countries that play cricket (Bangladesh and Pakistan excepted). Tradition is one thing but making oneself a laughing stock to the world is an Indian pastime it seems. So is it any wonder that aircrafts, ships, tanks are manually built like they used to be 100 years ago without the QC of course.
As always thanks a lot for covering the DefExpo in such great detail .
I have 2 questions :
(1) The US 2 deal if struck with Japan will be quite unique coz it will be signed very quickly .How was this made possible given that deals take 5 yrs or more to be signed after release of RFP ?
(2) What can Indian Private & Public shipyards possibly export ?
@Pierre Zorin, Yes what you mentioned are hard facts. But these do get changed over time. We are some 1-2 generations behind the developed world. When the next 2 generations get educated they get more exposure to the world, they get more educated on the living standards and by chance they get their hands on good things. Till then we have to have to go through these things... Yes automation is yet to come to India especially in Manufacturing... These tanks are made in Chennai, which is India's detroit. chennai makes Hyundai and BMW and everything in between. Still in the same city we makes railway coaches and tanks with not so sophisticated or automated methods. Yes we need subjects starting from 6th std till 10th on so many things such as living healthy, diseases, social and govt functioning, banks, postal, railways, health almost about everything we have to teach them including driving... yes from class 6th. we learn non-sense history and other classes but we have to scrap them and start these subjects first... It is hard for me to see people carrying 50-100 kilo bags on heads and shoulders where we can use simple equipment such as pump-trucks and pallets... time to get educated and change..
The most hilarious part is our neighbours do comment on us with out looking at their plight... simply hilarious.....
Hello Prasun, 1. Interesting to see the LR SAM update 2. Waiting eagerly for the updates but.. 3.Sad day today when the Def min announced that the MMRCA deal will not go through this fiscal.That will be a delay of another six months at the earliest.
They have NO interest in protecting us unlike the Govt of US , Japan Israel and EU .
Our Govt feels there are already 1 billion people too many. So it's good if a few hundred die in terrorist attacks . It's good if a few thousand die in floods & cyclones . Good if a few lakhs get killed in road accidents every year.
This is why the Govt will not stop terrorist attacks nor will it enforce road safety rules .
Bottomline is our Govt. will go out of it's way to ensure that we die almost as soon as we are born .
To AVILASH: Increase the MBT’s endurance by avoiding the need to proceed to the nearest field refuelling station, which in any case won’t be available in hostile territory.
To FARIS: Only technical type training to some 110 engineers & technicians from the RMAF/TUDM. All manuals supplied by RAC-MiG were in English. Of course opening up any hull is a costly exercise. All SSKs have to operate in deeper waters than beyond the continental shelf but to proceed there they first have to transit through shallow waters.
SHAH: You will have to be at DEFEXPO 2013 to see how pathetic the state of affairs is. Will explain it all in the narrative above ASAP.
To GOOGLER: The 190kg RCWS from OFB will stay for the moment.
To SUJOY MAJUMDAR: Not true. In fact, even the Samsung Techwin/L & T K-9 Thunder that was at DEFEXPO 2012 was offered for field evaluations on a no-cost no-commitment basis. But the IA refused to evaluate it & consequently after a 6-month wait, the K-9 was ferried to Chennai & was shipped back to the ROK.
By the way, today I got it right from the horse’s mouth (NPO Saturn): the Klimov AL-55I turbofan for the HJT-36 IJT DOES INDEED HAVE A TTSL of only 300 hours!!! One wonders who in their right mind will select such an engine that will drive the direct operating costs of the HJT-36 through the roof!!!
To GOPHER: Fume extractors are seen only in field artillery howitzers, not in cannons of MBTs.
To ARPAN: Yes, the centreline pylon will be able to hold both LGB & fuel tank. Presently, no MRSI-capable operational howitzers exist within India. Only the 155X45 Dhanush from OFB, Bharat 52 from Kalyani Group & TATA Power SED’s 155mm/52-cal motorised howitzer have MRSI capability.
To DAEDALUS: Can’t help you there mate, for even I don’t know the price. But you could call up FICCI to get that data.
To PIERRE ZORIN: Actually, you frequently see such guys in Europe, Russia & Southeast Asia imparting the finishing touches ONE DAY BEFORE any military-industrial expo officially opens its gates. This is routine & nothing out-of-the-blue.
To VIKRAM GUHA: Where there is a will, there’s a way. Once political push from the highest levels are exerted, then matters obviously get accelerated. The sad part is India often has to bend backwards for no apparent reason in order to attain such speeds in procurement decisions. For instance, just because Japanese PM Shinzo Abe was the Chief Guest for this year’s Republic Day Parade, some joker within the PMO or MEA decided that it would be ‘unwise’ to showcase India’s strategic missiles during the parade!
Then there’s the extremely sorry spectacle of seeing the OFB on one hand display its 155X45 Dhanush towed howitzer, while the Kalyani Group/Bharat Forge display its 100% locally built Bharat 52 155mm/52-cal howitzer. In no other country such a needless frittering away of national military-industrial resources is showcased. In China there’s only NORINCO’s exhibits, while in the UK it used to be Vickers & Royal Ordnance (both offering different systems), while in France it used to be GIAT Industries (now Nexter Systems) while in the US it was FMC Corp (now part of BAE Systems). I have absolutely no reason to believe that the Bharat 52 will stand any chance in India, not because it is not superior to the OFB’s & DRDO’s solutions, but because it will NEVER even be invited to a competitive bidding process. And why? Because the OFB’s Dhanush will be ordered, & it will be followed later by the DRDO’s ATAGS. Still don’t believe me? Here then are the figures from the MoD: As of now, orders worth Rs.165,000 crore are parked with the PSUs, whereas the private-sector has only Rs.9,000 crore in orders from the MoD & PSUs.
The UGS is already in service in large numbers throughout J & K along the LoC & IB. Now the CRPF & BSF too will be acquiring them & BEL will do the in-country servicing & product-support.
To ZUBIN: Why do you sound so surprised? Everyone knew that the MMRCA contract award wasn’t meant for fiscal 2013-2014, but in fiscal year 2014-2015. 85% of the contract negotiations are already over, as per figures quoted by RM A K Antony this morning. But far more interesting is that both Eurofighter GmbH & Eurojet are exhibiting at DEFEXPO 2014.
To VIKRAM GUHA, SUJOY MAJUMDAR & ZUBIN: Was also really astonished to see the SAGEM-supplied SIGMA-30 RLG-INS mounted just aft of the muzzle velocity radar on the barrel's top-section. Have never seen such a configuration in any other 155mm towed howitzer anywhere else so far. The model on display at the expo is the 6th prototype of the 155X45/Dhanush. No one 155mm/39-cal version has been ordered from the OFB.
Another surprise was the OFB's in-house development of the VT-72B ARV. This means the Bumar-built ARVs marketed by BEML will no longer be acquired. Surprisingly, BEML has a very small booth at the expo. I guess BEML has been told to maintain an extremely low-profile this time.
Another surprise: the IN is scouting for a retractable hull-mounted panoramic sonar of foreign origin for the Project 71/IAC-1/INS Vikrant.
Finally, Kalyani Group has teamed up with RAFAEL to offer a deep-upgrade package for the BMP-2 ICV.
Regarding the GOI's finances, many ppl in the media have highlighted how P.Chidambaram is missing the fiscal deficit target and how he is pushing a lot of the expenses next year to the new government and how a lot of short term debt in securities will have to be paid out to investors who bought them from this year. Any idea how much more irresponsible the govt. can get or how much more govt can borrow? there should be ceiling after whcih the govt will realize no way out except reforms(cut red tape and sell PSU)? There will have to be a point after which foreign investors will get fed up and ignore indian govt. bonds because returns are not sustainable by the govt. govt revenues + debt financing will not be enough to meet the spending and interest rates will go high up enough to make it impossible to borrow?
How amazing was the spectacle of our moronic raksha mantri teling the world that we don't have cash to buy arms,crucial projects like MMRCA,C-130j,M-777 all are stuck and our defence preparedness has gone to the dogs.But as they say shit happens!!!!!Thank you St.Antony, and this chap had the audacity to say that we'll buy VVIP choppers shortly in the same press confernce.What an utter moron. Sir,I'm no modi bhakt,but i really wish to see him becoming PM definitely better than these lame-duck idiots,you think that'll happen??
Guys, the priority for this Govt in FY 2013 has always been to 1) acquire land to build banks in rural areas for NREGA. 2) Award contracts for building such structures. 3) Instructing all Govt-owned central banks to each open 800 bank-branches in those districts pre-identified for NREGA implementation. 4) Instructing BSNL to lay fibre-optic cables to ensure connectivity with all these banks. Now, from where will the money for all this come from? That's why I have always maintained that politicians in India know of only vote-banks & retail-banks. Nothing more, nothing less. These jokers even transferred money from FY 2013 defence budget's capital account to the revenue account to just be able to pay for salaries, administrative & logistics reqmts. And despite all this, one wants to raise a Mountain Strike Corps? What a spectacular joke indeed!!! China & Pakistan are laughing at us to their heart's content, kindly rest assured.
To VIKRAM GUHA: FICCI sponsoring DEFEXPO??? The MoD has outsourced the organising of DEFEXPO to FICCI after inviting competitive bids from CII, FICCI & ASSOCHAM. It is FICCI that makes money from this expo as well as from Aero India & pays the MoD for renting the exhibition area. FICCI considers such expos to be money-making exercises, nothing less.
To DEFENSE & AEROSPACE: Mostly sub-contracting by the PSUs to the private-sector. TATA Power SED's motorised 155mm/52-cal howitzer jointly developed with DENEL Land Systems was originally targetted for Indonesia, as I had reported during DEFEXPO 2012. It was only AFTER Indonesia selected the Caesar that TATA decided to offer its solution to India.
I was trying to say that Industries should hold FICCI accountable for not lobbying with GOI to ensure a level playing field . Came out wrong.
I think Mr.Sujoy Majumdar has put it rather bluntly in his above comments , but maybe he is right that GOI want's just an opportunity to get us killed .
what do you make of the shaped armor/covering in place of the square box where the ALWACS is placed on the Arjun? Is that the actual cover for the IR CM system?
Did anyone take any shots of the Bharat 52?
What did you make of TATA's Kestrel and the 7.5 ton LAMV? We had discussed the need for a JLTV for the IA, the LMAV seems to fit the bill specially if its equipped with a compact (ergo not the OFB one) RCWS. The Kestrel should really do well as a wheeled trop carrier for our RAPIDS, no?
Great pics Prasun, takes us to some of the excitement. 1. What is truly baffling is the glut of Arty systems that have suddenly hit the trial /eval stage, you may be right about the ATAGS by DRDO and you know, in a way , perversely though , it may be a positive development simply for the fact that in the future we will not be delayed by these killing procurement process etc. But this link is again confusing when each company is doing their own thing and still want to collaborate. Clarify if you can please. http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2013-01-06/india/36173272_1_drdo-development-establishment-bofors
2. The Arjun catapult seems to again be another stupid decision...who asked for a 26 km 130 mm gun, with manual laying systems??!!
3. Deep upgrade of the BMP-2! what about the FICV program? why both running parallel
4. Seems to be positive development on the Aerostat front...very encouraging.
5. Any prog on the small arms esp for crew served night sights and individual soldier wpn sights ?
Thanx , though a million questions to ask. look forward to tomorrows posts. Excellent wk
Saint Anthony says MMRCA deal to be signed by next Govt.
This could well mean that the MMRCA deal can be opened again and the Super Hornet might just well seal the deal given the fact that BJP has generally been more closer to Uncle SAM
In the interim IAF will have to purchase LCA MK1 .
Fume extractor can be seen in almost all tanks. E.g. abrams, alkhalid etc. Here s a pic of M1 abrams at wikipeida: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Abrams
Why is that the case wrt the OFB RCWS? This RCWS is a total joke- look at it! You had said a foreign RCWS would be procured and the SAAB and ELBIT offerings looked 1000 times better
1. 'No Decision Taken To Debar Agusta Westland', RM said in parliament, does it mean their is still hope for the VVIP deal to go through
2. France is looking to sell MMP ATGM to IA that will replace Milan, why go for so many ATGMs Nag, Helina, Javelin, Milan and now MMP
3. You say the Arjun catapult is not needed, then why is DRDO adament on forcing it down the throat of IA
4. Just learnt from Bharat Karnad blog that the British destroyed a no. of B25 mitchell bombers in kanpur it considered as surplus before going out of India, if true then i can only say that it makes my blood boil at the criminal waste and deliberate intention to cripple IAF
5. Bharat Karnad also says its better to lease as many Tu160 than spending 35K crores on PAKFA/FGFA and contribute and buy PAKDA that may fly in 2030s, your views
BTW just leant the British PM is shedding CROCODILIAN TEARS begging Scotland not separate from Britain, I say let these MCP BSers feel the pain and sorrow of division, something they did in 1947 diving India under religious lines and further cutting India into princely states. A pain that still hurts us.
Sir, 1.What is the range of the srsam? What is the status of the Maitri project? when will this system enter operational service with army anf airforce? 2.Instead of replacing the Barak-1 with Srsam on the Brahmaputra class, wont it be better to install the 70 km Lrsam on these vessels? After Maitri gets operational will In replace Barak-1 on its existing principal surface combatants with Maitri ? 3.Which is IA's favoured choice in the Srsam tender in which Bamsr,Tor-2ME on a Tata 6x6,etc are participating? Wont IA procure any radar guided AAA for which it had selected the Rheinmetall Skyranger ? Has IA taken any decision in thid regard? 4.What are the new developements on Nirbhay and Bmd phase-2?Is the Drdo pavilion displaying any models of the PDV and Ad-1,2 interceptors. Can you pls ask the guys in the Drdo pavilion what is the developemental status of these interceptors,will the Pdv,Ad-1,2 combo be actually operationally deployed, when is Drdo going to conduct the 1st launch of Pdv, whether Pdv has a definitive kill vehicle like the Raytheon LEAP and what are the new radars being designed and developed to support these new intetceptors. 5. In a previous thread on Javelin and Smaw procurement from US, you had also highlighted the Bmp-2 k upgrade program having Kliver turret, Tisas and Elbit TI, new engine and additional addon,composite armour from Mku. You have said that this Bmp-2 upgrade is now being carried ouy in the various Eme workshops. Then which is this Rafale and Kalyani Jv upgrade for Bmp-2 and this will be applied to which Bmp-2?
7. You say the IA need for MGS calls for separate loader vehicle but in the Caeser pic a lot of space is their between the barrel and cabin, that space be used to store and load shells, your views
Prasunda, so the green box(which was seen on Republic day) of Arjun MK2 will be there in the new housing, so it isn't gone permanently. If it's part of LAHAT FCS then it should be a laser designator and the small window is for the optics. If I'm not wrong Merkava designates Lahat from gunner's main sight.In the parade it looks like a hollow metal cavity, it is now filling the space earlier covered by the box to make it streamlined with K-5 ERA plates. What is your thought? Abhinab
Sir, I've been looking all over the net for pictures and the MCIWS rifle sure looks great. Please allocate a portion of your upcoming narrative to explain some info about this gun...VMT in advance.
1. IS it possible to add VLS tubes, diesel engines and AIP (MESMA/Stirling) in the French Barracuda subamrine? Whether they will allow or not is another matter, but is it possible? Will it be adequate for our P75I sub requirement and be able to launch Brahmos?
2. S-80 is in trouble and SORYU won't be sold. Other options are all crappy and logistically, they will a night mare. So what are the better options?
3. Why is P75I being touted as 12 billion deal? When nuclear subs cost as much, is it suitable to pay that much for a diesel sub?
Please enlighten me and also post some pics of Kalyani's 52 Cal gun.
Sir, In the Brahmos Indutry complex slide, it is mentioned Data patterns provides the fire control system,scan.is the Sar seeker?And nowadays isnt the Granit sar seeker of Brahmos imported from St Petersburg?
What are the specs of Brahmos-M? What is its range and payload?Does it use a smaller dia version of the Brahmos Granit seeker?
Is there any cluster muntions,air burst payload for Brahmos. Will such payloads be developed?Cluster munitiosn will come handy when an airfield or armour concentration is being targetted.
Are there firm orders for srsam from airforce,army, navy.How many launchers/firing units and missiles has army contracted for till now. Tor-M2KM is touted as an anti PGM and anti RAM by Almaz Antey.It is claimed of being capable of intercepting alcm lacm and even HARM.
Will srsam be developed into such a system capable of intercepting anti-radiation missiles and terrain hugging cruise missiles?If so srsam can be used for providing protection to ASR radars.
Is the p15a Kolkata class having any ciws - Barak-1,Ak-630? How many Lrsam is Kolkata class having-48 or 64, the no varies by source.
Pipavav defense and Atlas has teamed up to produce heavy weight torpedos for navy. Is this for the Seahake mod4ER model?Does this mean Indian navy has showed interest in Seahake and it will surely procure them for its principal surface combatants.
@Prasunda I was always an admirer of NaMo's administrative skills, however as the days progress it appears he has everything it takes to emerge as a "Leader Who Can Take Difficult Decisions Without Any Difficulty". I feel he is very well aware and many of this blogs views have rubbed off onto his speeches. And I'm eagerly awaiting your reply to Mr.Phil in there,whenever some brainfart comes up and posts ludicrous observations, I feel no need of giving it back to them, cuz I know you excel in such roles more than words can describe :) Regards
Prasunda, Thanks for giving us a virtual tour of defexpo2014. Happy to see some indigenous artillery systems such as Dhanush & Bharat-52. Companies like Pipavav,Kalyani,Tata,Ashok Leyland,etc must be given preferences in defence deals & motivated.
Hi Prasun da, One of the Israelis claimed this durng DEFexpo that they have successfully tested Barak - 8 against the Brahmos with Indian assistance.
"After 2 tests we have a 90% hit to kill with 1 missile per aggressor and 99% with two. Barack 8 has a parabolic look down self guide mode that is unique tech sea skimmers are very easy pray from this position."
Can we kindly stay focussed on the DEFEXPO 2014-centric contents of this thread, instead of veering off in tangents by succumbing to the nonsensical rants of the likes of PHIL that don't serve any meaningful purpose? Am pretty sure there are other productive & beneficial ways of taxing one's mind. VMT & with malice towards none. Will answer all queries later today, since this has been an incredibly busy week not only due to the expo, but also due to the seminars related to military-industrialisation issues/concerns.
Sir, waiting patiently for your replies to the various comments and pics of other exhibits and brochures. Pls upload some pics of various ew systems from elta, ew suites of Tejas mk1, ir jammers and dircm being offered for Mi17v5,v1,Rudra , Virjilius jammers . Also pls upload the various seekers being developed by Alpha electronics ,Data patterns for the various missilrs now under developement. And is there any developements with the super sukhoi upgrade project.
Is it true that Rafale,IAI, Drdo ,Bel are forming a Jv to develope a new series of ABM interceptors to suit our needs and meet the various threat requirements alongwith thr the associated C3 infrastructure and radars. So this will be a brand new Abm system besides Bmd phase 2 comprsing Pdv and Ad interceptors.
1. The Kalyani gun Bharat 52 looks quite dated, almost an improvement over M46 130mm gun. Dhanush looks much modern and with better elevation and firing profile.
2. How difficult it is to improve the 45 cal to 52 cal gun? Just increasing the barrel size or a better metallurgy required? Because a 52 cal Dhanush would be beautiful, modern and deadly. And then it can be put on all sorts of platforms for MGS, SPH etc.
I had this rather naive query regarding the external oil tanks on Arjun. Since in battle field they would be exposed to even small arms fire will the spilling oil from the tanks spread over the entire tank and burn the outside. Even if it may not percolate inside, it could be catastrophic to the various optoelectronic items which are exposed. Also even sharpnel exploding at distance can puncture exposed oil tank. Is it that the external oil tanks will be removed based on threat scenario and only used for reaching to near battle field. Similarly i had another doubt regarding TWMP, why it has to be a standard fit for all tanks since combat engineers could have cleared all mines. Wont the use of mine plough tie down the tanks on a small area for a long time and make them vulnerable to enemy fire.
To LITTLEMASTER: The DATA Patterns-developed SAR seeker for BrahMos-1 is already shown above. That's the only seeker being developed by this company. It will replace the existing Granit JSC-supplied SGH seeker. ALPHA lost the competition to supply the BrahMos-1's seeker to DATA Patterns.
Sir, it is being stated by forum persons who have visited the DEFEXPO that the new BrahMos-M missile variant showcased there will be 3 meters shorter, 190mm smaller diameter, 500kg lesser weight, and a max speed of 3.5 Mach compared to 2.8 Mach of BrahMos Block-1.
To GESSLER: The BrahMos-M will be shorter of course because it won't require the booster motor-section that is now there on BrahMos-1's ship-launched & land-launched versions. But diameter remains the same & speed remains the same. Launch weight will be 1.5 tonnes. This is information confirmed to me by the OEM.
Cutaways of SR-SAM & LR-SAM were posted in other blogs in 2010 & were supplied by the DRDO. But the poster I've uploaded was displayed by BEL at its pavilion.
To HEBERIAN: O yaar no apologies reqd at all. Henceforth, what I will do is let such rubbish remain there for a few hours & then delete them. My only request to you all is don't get worked up & just ignore the rants. After all, why argue at all with an idiot? VMT & God bless.
To SREENIVAS R: The twin fuel tanks are meant for refuelling the MBT BEFORE it reaches the tactical battle area (TBA). Consequently, the fuel-tanks won’t be on-board once the battle gets underway. Typically, the Arjun will be parked between 40km & 100km away from the TBA before the orders to move ahead are issued. Once committed to battle, the Arjun’s turret will be reqd to traverse 360 degrees in azimuth & also be able to depress the 120mm barrel—something which will be possible only when the twin fuel tanks are already removed.
TWMPs & full-width mine-ploughs are the norm of the day when the demands of manoeuvre warfare place an enormous premium on the time factor, i.e. maintaining a high tempo of operations. Consequently, gone are the days when sappers would have to engage in demining for clearing minefields—a process that is not only labourious & time-consuming, but also dangerous. In addition, manually clearing minefields will easily give the game away & the element of surprise will be lost since the enemy will get a pretty good idea of the axis-of-advance. Therefore, for retaining the tactical initiative during manoeuvre warfare, speed is of the essence & hence the need to resort to increased mechanisation.
Is that shaped armor covering the IR countermeasure system (ALWACS right?) or is it just a simple metal covering, if its the former than what sort of armor are we looking at- composite?
Also, the ERA on the Mk.2 is Indian or Russian- what is it called?
Do you think that Kalyani will find any luck with the Bharat-52? If the MOD had any brains they would have afforded all the testing facilities required to get the product up to speed and then gotten TATA or Ashok-leyland to tag along for a truly Indian wheeled howitzer platform.
(2) Can you please elaborate why India & Israel decided to announce this deal for Anti-Missile System when Raksha Mantri has clearly stated that MoD does not have enough money ?
To BHASWAR: That is just a composites-built cover to protect the IR jammer against the vagaries of the weather. The laser warning is mounted above it. The cover was installed because it was frequently raining when the expo was underway. All ERA tiles are DRDO-developed & OFB-made. From both a design & engineering standpoint, the Bharat 52 is superior to the Dhanush. Kalyani Group, which has an industrial cooperation agreement with ELBIT Systems (which owns SOLTAM), has acquired the expertise from ELBIT for fabricating the 155mm/52-cal barrel (derived from that of the ATHOS-52). It now only needs to be field-tested & validated along with all the ELBIT-supplied vectronics. The APU & gun cradle of Bharat-52 is derived from those of the GHN-45, again another proven product. All in all, a far superior product compared to the Dhanush, six prototypes of which have been built with parts cannibalised from existing FH-77B, with the exception of the 45-cal barrel. In addition, citing the Sigma-30 RLG-INS (used for ballistic computing & land navigation) atop the barrel is downright ridiculous. Even the LW-155/M-777 UFH has its Selex-built RLG-INS cited well behind & certainly not atop the barrel. Just pray that the RM during one of his saintly mood-swings doesn’t blacklist the LW-155/M-777 just because it has an RLG-INS from SELEX (a Finmeccanica subsidiary)! The Kestrel is an excellently engineered 8 x 8 APC. Its RCWS is built in such a way that it does not protrude into the compartment below, thereby allowing 2 more soldiers to be accommodated inside.
To SANJEEV KUMAR: ADA wasn’t present at DEFEXPO 2014. Only HAL was. Therefore, no conclusive data on the ones you’ve asked for was available.
To RAJEEV CHATURVEDI: The Bharat-52 is definitely better engineered than the Dhanush—this much is beyond any doubt. An existing 45-ca 155mm barrel has to be lengthened by another 1 metres to become a 52-cal barrel. To do this, both metallurgical & ballistics computing expertise is required. Finally, given the choice between a homegrown 155mm/45-cal towed howitzer & a homegrown 155mm/52-cal towed howitzer, I will definitely opt for the latter with my eyes closed, period.
To LITTLEMASTER: No such JV is being formed or negotiated between DRDO, BEL & RAFAEL. Range of SR-SAM is 22km. P-16A FFGs don’t have enough space below-deck for accommodating the Barak-2. Have already explained several times before that if an end-user has particular preferences for a particular product, then it’s pointless to float global tenders. BMP-2K upgrade is not a deep upgrade, whereas the one proposed by Kalyanai Group is.
To BRADSHAW: Those were simulated interceptions similar to the ones that the DRDO had done in the past prior to actual test-firings of the AAD, i.e. an electronic target was generated & a simulated launch of the Barak-2 was initiated.
To RAKESH: Restrictions remain the same since the restrictions are formulated by the US State Dept, not the US Defense Dept or Pentagon. It is the State dept that maintains the ‘Negative List’. Only those products that are already in service with the US armed forces are offered through the FMS channel as a first option, i.e. the US Defense Dept offers such weapons on credit & the customer pays for it in instalments over as period of time. In addition, US military advisers are available for helping the customer with service-induction processes & also for in-country training. In case of a direct commercial sale, the customer pays the amount in successive tranches as determined by the OEM. Direct commercial sales are also preferred when the US-origin hardware isn’t in service with the US armed forces.
To ATULK SINGH: For the Arudhra, the instrumented detection range is 300km. The Ashwini is meant as replacement for the existing Rohini & therefore target detection/engagement parameters of the Ashwini will be the same as that of the Rohini.
To ARUP: DATA Patterns-developed SAR sensor will replace existing SGH SAR sensor from Granit JSC. Range & payload of BrahMos-M will be the same as those of BrahMos-1. The former, however, will weigh only 1.5 tonnes. No cluster munitions-based payloads for BrahMos-1/M. How can anyone order the SR-SAM when it has yet to be developed & field-tested? No CIWS for P-15A DDGs. Already stated that several times before. Only the SeaHake Mod 4.
To JAIDEV: 1) Possible, but needless since it will be cost-prohibitive. 2) Best option is always to order 3 more Scorpenes with Stirling Engine AIP & concurrently begin the construction of SSNs. 3) P-75I won’t proceed for all intents & purposes. Need of the hour is an SSN fleet. Without SSNs, all SSBNs of the IN will be sitting ducks for hostile hunter-killer SSNs.
To ABHINAB: That box-like structure houses the IR jammer.
To JOYDEEP GHOSH: 1) AW-101 is a dead deal for as long as the UPA-2 is in power. However, there are other competitions for which AgustaWestland is free to participate. That’s what the RM meant. 2) No one from India is asking for such ATGMs. 3) Dunno. Only Dr Avinash Chander can answer that. And so far he hasn’t said anything about it. Which means he’s not confident about this product. 5) And who will supply those Tu-160s? Doesn’t he know that sale of such weapons is banned under the bilateral treaties inked between the US & Russia? What a dork indeed!!! 6) BrahMos-M can be used for pinpoint strikes over land as well as for anti-ship strike. 7) Never said that. Maybe someone else told you that.
To KUNAL8888: 1) Developed in-house by DRDO. 2) Not the UPA-2 govt.
To GOOGLER: That’s what one gets when a RCWS developed for a naval platform gets installed on a MBT.
To NITIN: 1.5 tonnes.
To ZUBIN: VMT. 1) From an operational perspective, the Bharat-52 is definitely a far better option than the Dhanush. 2) What I can confirm is that the Indian Army never asked for the Arjun Catapult. Even the PSQR for such a contraption does not exist anywhere inside India, let alone the GSQR. 3) FICV project is almost non-existent now. No one at DEFEXPO 2014 even showcased their conceptual designs. 4) Yes. I totally agree. 5) Those procurements are already on-going.
To VIKRAM GUHA: Elementary. For reasons of commonality with existing in-service hardware. There’s no truth in that DEFENSE NEWS report. The only agreement inked by BEL during DEFEXPO 2014 was this:
Navratna Defence Public Sector Undertaking Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) has signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) with Sagem (Safran), France, to explore co-operation in the production and supply of navigational sensors, inertial navigational system and optronic masts to the Indian Navy for its various platforms under consideration for future induction. The MoU was signed by Mr P C Jain, Director (Marketing), BEL, and Mr Bruno Even, CEO Sagem, France. Mr S K Sharma, Chairman & Managing Director, BEL; Mr. Joel Berkoukchi COO, Avionics Division of Sagem, and Mr Chandrasekhar S, General Manager (Naval Systems), BEL, were also present during the MoU signing at the BEL stall at Defexpo 2014. The Indian Navy has ambitious plans of inducting ships and submarines into the service in the near future. Accordingly, the ship and submarine construction programme has been approved by the Government. Naval platforms have large-scale requirement of sensors such as SIGMA–40, Ring Laser Gyro, Optronic mast, Attack Periscope and Radar Mast for submarines. Sagem has the technology and expertise in the manufacture of these sensors. BEL is the leader in the manufacture and supply of defence electronics for the Indian Armed Forces. BEL and Sagem coming together to co-operate in the field of navigational sensors for ships and submarines will help in meeting the needs of the Indian Navy. The MoU will help in understanding and absorbing the critical technology adopted in these sensors for use in future induction platforms of the Navy. The MoU will facilitate BEL and Sagem to work together for 24 months and if considered necessary, the same can be extended to a further period agreeable to both the companies.
so basically the shaped covering is just meant to provide environmental protection rather than any form of blast or ballistic protection?
But you've stated that even though Bharat-52 is the superior product Kalyani will find little luck with the MOD? Any chance that might change?
What happened to the Nirbhay test?
What of the BMD-2 interceptor tests?
Even the Leopard is a heavy tank and still it was equipped with AMAP, so why not the Arjun, specially since you've stated that their are Indian companies which have acquired the know-how to provide AMAP level solutions?
The comm. gear on the Kestrel is imported too? How much of the vehicle is actually Indian?
Has OFB given a name/designation to said ERA?
What did you make of the LMAV- no specs were given wrt weight for specific STANAG protection levels- all that was stated was that it weighs about 7.5 tons and has protection levels from STANAG level-1 upwards. Any specific info in this regard?
Is the DATA PATTERNS developed seeker an indigenous venture or are we looking at screw-driver giri or a joint venture- surely the critical components of the seeker itself have been procured off-shelf from a foreign OEM?
That’s right. Bharat-52’s chances are slim for as long as UPA-2 is in power. Maybe after another 100 days, things might change. Nirbhay will be test-fired again by this April. PDV’s maiden test-firing will follow. Development & evaluations of AMAP solutions would have delayed the service-induction. When vehicles like Kestrel are series-built on an industrial scale, total local content will increase to more than 80%. No specifications for ERA tiles. LMAVs were presented by TATA, Kalyani Group & Ashok Leyland. Their specs should be available on the respective websites of the OEMs. SAR sensor from DATA Patterns is an indigenous one.
To BHASWAR: The LFDS is still undergoing developmental trials & has not yet undergone any user-trials. The green-coloured & orange-coloured structures on either side of LFDS in that poster are moored & floating influence mines. Photo of Marreech’s active decoy was uploaded a long time ago in another thread in this blog. ARDE-developed MCW family is thankfully the continuing evolution of the earlier INSAS family & therefore promises to become a matured solution in the near future. Those optronic sensors you’ve highighted are meant for border/battlefield surveillance & can be mounted atop raisable masts when used for battlefield surveillance, & by aerostats when used for border surveillance.
To RAVI: No. It won’t be.
To PINTU: It is awaiting political clearance for service-induction.
Prasun sir, Thank you so much for all the great pics of the defense expo!
1)Regarding the 155mm towed howitzer, i garner that there are two versions: a 155mm 45cal made by the ofb and the 155mm 52cal made by the Kalyani group. However i read on the net that there is/was also a DRDO 155mm 52cal howitzer in development.
What happened to this project? Was it shown at the defense expo or has it been delayed?
2) I read the DRDO MCIWS has an under barrel grenade launcher to fire air-burst shots. How does this method compare with standalone system such as XM25 CDTE or combined systems such as S&T Daewoo K11? Also, now that DRDO has unveiled its multi caliber weapon, will the Indian Army chuck the user trials of foreign carbines such as Beretta ARX 160?
1. Is the range of Sea Hake HWT more than 140km? When subs can see only till 50 km in line of sight, will the sub have to pop up to track it? Is it better than Black Shark of WASS?
2. What is the power rating (MW) of Virginia Sub's nuke reactor and Gerald Ford's reactor?
3. Reports are coming up that DCNS is bringing its Barracuda for defexpo. Can they offer the design expertise to India? Will it not violate some international treaty on nukes, whichever?
4.Has India authorised the construction of SSNs? Will they have any feature of Akula class as Russian amb Kadakin mentions? Does India have licence to build them?
5. Russian shipyards are selling kilo-class for 250 million a pop. How come P75i is being considered a 12 billion dollar deal, meaning 2 billion a pop? That too a diesel submarine with no deep ocean capability, in a Indian shipyard?
6. How important is the AIP? Does it increase the efficiency of a submarine considerably on a combat level? Running on a battery at 5 knot is dangerous too, as a ASW ship can easily outrun it so what explains its need?
7. Why are Soryu class subs rated always as the best in the world. I read about the fact that leaf coil shape is better than cigar shape ones, but no explanation. How come all subs of USN and French Navy have cigar shape and are still considered the best?
8. Why did India refuse to buy MH-60R helos in a US FMS deal?
To VIDYUT: DRDO’s ATAGS 155mm/52-cal towed howitzer is still in the detailed design stage & has not yet entered the prototype development stage. In January 2013 I had uploaded the ATAGS’ drawing & specs in a thread devoted to DRDO exhibits at the ISC anniversary celebrations in Kolkata. All UBGLs can fire air-burst grenades. The challenge is not in developing such UBGLs, but lies in the development of air-burst grenade rounds. User-trials for MCWs of foreign origin are meant for only very few select infantry units, not for the entire armed forces. The ARDE-developed MCW family will be the one to replace the existing INSAS family, rest assured.
To AK: Not the SeaHake Mod4, but the Mod 4ER which is still under development. Black Shark is a good system, but the Franco-Italian industrial consortium that developed it is no longer operational. French companies making the torpedo’s batteries & fibre-optic guidance cable have opted out of WASS & for all intents & purposes the Black Shark can no longer be series-produced. 2) Such data is easily obtained by Googling. 3) DCNS showed the Barracuda SSN’s scale-model just as it had done so in 2012. There are no international treaties banning the export of such SSNs. 4) Not yet. 5) SSKs like Scorpene & Amur 1650 are a full generation ahead of Type 877EKM or Type 636M SSKs. 6) AIP is good only for those countries that don’t have access to nuclear propulsion technologies. Those that have in-service SSNs & SSBNs don’t operate any single SSK, with or without AIP. & Soryo-class SSKs are ocean-going & have deeper max diving depths than most other SSKs. Hull-shaping therefore does not give the Soryo any decisive edge. 8) MH-60R version of Seahawk has inferior on-board ASW systems, when compared to what can be installed on board the S-70B2 Seahawk. For instance, MH-60R comes with THALES-built FLASH low-frequency dunking sonar, but S-70B2 Seahawk comes with HELRAS ultra low-frequency dunking sonar.
To AUSTIN: VMT & God bless. Will upload scanned copies of various brochures later this week.
Hi Prasun, VMT for the tour of def expo. one request to you, Please upload the images of indigenous products as much as possible. Also as u will be the only 1 Indian blog owner who would be attending the seminars and most importantly understanding what is being articulated there,kindly have short write up about them.Specially it would be really interesting about DRDO's roadmap about UAS system in future. Apart from the current Rustoms and AURA what else are in pipeline for future. Also HAL is supposed to work on its own UAS and engines for UAS. What is the progress on them? Thanks a lot for your patience and efforts. Gud luck and have a nice day.
How you rate ARDE MCIWS. Will it be a potent and deadly weapon for IA. I've read on Bharat-rakshak, the total weight of this weapon is 3 Kg - magazine empty and 3.6 K -magazine loaded.
Tu-142 in service with Indian Navy can be used as Strategic Bomber.
Recently, SAAB has been making a lot of news regarding its VSHORADS and SRSAM and its JV with Kalyani group.
Last I remember, India had selected Spyder-SR for VSHORADS and for SRSAM a 6BN USD agreement with MBDA was inked last year.
1. Then which VSHOARDS and SRSAM they are talking about?
2. Kalyani's Bharat 52 looks like an extension of a dated technology. A modernised version of old GHN-45 field gun (looks very similar to M-46 130mm too). So what is the reasoning behind your statement that its very advanced gun? Even by primary looks, it seems inferior to OFB Dhanush gun.
I am following your blog for quite some time and I wish to say that this is simply superb. I enjoy your technical proficiency, way of explaining things & logical reasoning. My best wishes.
One thing I observe is that, our Defence R&D is working towards indigenizing the highly advanced technologies that are already available in the west.
But are we making efforts to initiate the basic R&D in any of the areas, at least in one area, to develop our own state-of-the-art technologies that at some point in future will stand high among the contemporaries and that the rest of the world will work towards mastering it.
To SPANKY’s BLOG/SWAROP: VMT. Your wishlist is exactly what was on my mind since the past 2 days & do rest assured that I will fulfil your wishes by the latter half of this week. This is inclusive of the interesting seminars & interactions I had with the top hierarchy of DRDO scientists & technocrats.
To SIDDHARTH: MCIWS from DRDO/ARDE will be a fully mature & reliable product when its R & D cycle is completed, do rest assured. Will upload their brochures in the latter half of this week.
To JAIDEV: 1) They’re talking about the BAMSE. 2) M-46 & Bharat-52 are generations apart. Even the M-46 was shown by Kalyani Group & you will get a good idea of the generational differences only after you’ve seen them. Lastly, when comparing the Bharat-52 with Dhanush, the former is 52-cal while the latter is 45-cal. Secondly, for towed howitzers, simplicity is the key to sustained reliability & serviceability. Complexity can be introduced on MGS or tracked SPHs. The Dhanush has arrived 15 years too late. Had it been developed & introduced into service 14 years ago, then it would have had some viable utility. Today, if I were to choose between a 45-cal & 52-cal towed 155mm howitzer, I will on any given day opt for the 52-cal solution.
To Anon@6.24PM: Of course, no doubt about that. You will get to know much more about all this in a following thread later this week, with illustrations of course to drive home my point.
To MATHURAN: VMT & the very same to you as well. Of course, no doubt about that. You will get to know much more about all this in a following thread later this week, with illustrations of course to drive home my point, kindly rest assured.
Sir, VMT on a very good post,quite a lot that i learnt from the photos as well as the comments. 1)What are the export prospects of Indian OPVs also what is the status of GRSE's ships for Mauritius? 2)good to see some private sector firms building arty guns but equally tragic that babudom wont let them go far. 3)What are your impressions regarding the barracuda SSN also, will HSL be able to absorb the technology or will any other shipyard build them?
I was hoping that the following good news would be splashed & shared with all Indian citizens by the MoD via the national broadcast TV channels. But it looks like the PR managers of the MoD & their corps of ‘desi’ journalists are either fast asleep or could not care less. So kindly allow me to share this brilliant feat with you all:
48 hours ago the first two MiG-29KUBs of the IN made the IN’s first two successful deck landings on INS Vikramaditya. Accomplishment of this feat were preceded by a series of at least three simulated deck landings (mirror-assisted deck landings or MADLs). This is no mean feat since the INS Vikramaditya has three arrester cables (US Navy aircraft carriers have four). If the tail-hook latches on to the first cable, it is called an ‘early hook’. If the tail-hook latches on to the second wire, then it is the ‘perfect hook’. If the third wire catches the tail-hook, it is called the ‘green hook’. With the accomplishment of this feat (first deck-landings with IN’s MiG-29K/KUB-qualified pilots), the IN’s Naval Aviation Arm is the first in the world to be trained for carrier deck-landings/takeoffs by the US Navy (on T-45 Goshawks) & acquire the proficiency to operate carrier-based MRCAs of Russian origin.
Sometime next month, PM Dr MMS will spend a day at sea on board INS Vikramaditya to witness carrier-based aviation operations. This follows a long tradition of the IN, under which Jawaharlal Nehru was there to witness such operations after the arrival of INS Vikrant, while Rajiv Gandhi was there to witness such operations after the arrival of INS Viraat. Let us therefore all rejoice & wish the IN ‘smooth sailing in calm waters’. Shan No Varun!
To VIKRANT: VMT. 1) Prospects are very good within the IOR. GSL has already bagged an order for building a 105-metre NOPV for the Sri Lanka Navy. GSL has also refurbished the SLNS Sayura & this vessel will next be armed with China-supplied C-802A ASCMs & FM-90N air-defence missiles. The GRSE-built OPV for Mauritius is now undergoing fitting-out. 3) No, HSL won’t be able to. But L & T’s Kattupalli shipyard will be able to.
Prasun, great blog and excellent coverage of the expo. I felt proud at the in country expected introduction of various systems. We need to ban defence imports of either finished or ckd products for at least two decades and actively involve the private sector. We might lose out in the short term, but would be definitely well placed in the longer run.
By the way, the catastrophic explosion on board the INS Sindhurakshak was caused by some kind of accidental detonation of a Novator 3M54E Klub-S ASCM. This is what has been reportedly established by the IN's Board of Inquiry-led forensic analysis. None of the torpedoes exploded. It must be borne in mind that the Klub-S ASCMs were acquired in the previous decade & are fast approaching the expiry dates of their technical service-lives & require relifing.
To ATUL: In an era of globalisation, banning imports of weapon systems or their sub-systems/components won't be advisable. Instead, focus should be laid on joint development on risk-sharing basis, like the BrahMos JV & the Barak-2 project. Private-sector should be bestowed with a level playing field whenever competitive bidding is called for. The MoD's Dept of Defence Production & Supplies should morphe into a Dept of Defence Industrialisation. Finally, the prevailing mantra of 'import substitution' should be replaced by 'export promotion'.
Dear Prasun, Once you made a promise to write the 2nd of of article "where ROK go right and India went wrong"; but you didn't post the concluding part.
Pa'ji if u need help, why don't you outsource the documentation job to some service provider??? It is helpful to you. Otherwise it will increase my anxiety and blood pressure. Plz. consider
To SOUBHAGYA: All my comments & observations related to that thread provide ample fodder that, if consolidated into one unitary narrative, could easily constitute a new thread. It's all there till now & no one has deleted them. You will thus have to connect the dots, which I'm sure you can do.
Sir,i would like to ask you a few questions about the arjun mk2. what exactly is the indian army's problem with this mbt? Its weight is comparable to other western mbts Then why is it said that its too heavy? can it be compared to the t90 or t72 which are medium battle tanks? Why cant it be deployed in kutch and rajasthan?can it be airlifted by the c17?shouldnt it idealy be ordered in larger numbers?
To JAY BHANUSHALI: The IA has absolutely no problem with the Arjun family of MBTs. In fact, it is extremely happy with the performance of this MBT family. Only after the IA's MGO Branch concludes the AUCERT process will Army HQ be able to finalise the Arjun MBT family's projected consolidated fleet strength. Eventually, the fleet will number some 600 units at the very minimum, rest assured. The AUCERT process is extremely critical because the conclusions reached after this process will give the IA the reqd firm data for establishing the Arjun's MRO workshops & spares provisioning warehouses (at least three of each) along India's northern half, establishment of three MBT Integrated Crew Training Simulator centres, plus procurement of up to 12 containerised, road-mobile gunnery simulators. Concurrently, up to 40 Arjun BLTs will be procured along with a similar number of Arjun ARVs.
sir , i have recently gone through Gen. VK Singh's autobiography.. i have some questions (i don't really know how to put them).. hope you will answer..
1) he puts the entire blame on babudom for equipment shortage , officer shortage etc is he right..at several occasions he points to defence secretary saying "we'll look into it"..& that nothing happens after it.. is this really the case..is the indian bureacracy so laid back , indifferent ,?? can the people in PMO really be leaky ? if yes then why ?? 2) can there really be a line of sucession in the army?
3) what are your views on the book..specially the last section(ch 12 - COAS)..if you could share your insights on it..at several occasions the general doesn't explain anything in detail..only saying the other party on made certain "noises" & "hemmed and hawed".. is the gen. singularly right all throughout ??
4) do you really think the 3 corps commander at the time was really at fault..for the botched up op..for his int. chief upto mischieves(also was he really into mischieves..?) how can/why was the eastern army commander post kept vacant for any particular individual..when several others could have been appointed..does it mean the 3 corps commander was hand in gloves with the eastern army commander..& was it already decided that the eastern army commander will clear the way for him once he took over the COAS job ?
i must say sir , the last section of the book was really disheartening , demoralising..
Here's some background information on the JV between ELBIT Systems & Kalyani Group/Bharat Forge:
February 7, 2013:Bharat Forge Ltd, the flagship company of the Kalyani Group, and Elbit Systems Land and C4I Ltd, a wholly owned subsidiary of Elbit Systems Ltd, today announced a strategic co-operation in India under which a new Joint Venture Company (JVC) will be established, to address the Indian Ministry of Defence and other potential Indian government customers’ requirements for the most advanced artillery and mortars systems solutions.
The JVC will offer solutions in the Artillery Guns & Mortars segment based on Elbit Systems’ cutting edge technologically advanced products operationally used worldwide, such as the ATHOS 155/52 Towed Gun System, the ATMOS 155/52 Mounted Gun System and the upgraded 130 mm M46 Gun to a 155/45 Gun (KARAN). The JVC will also role out a range of futuristic products like the Advanced Indian Gun System. The JVC will bring together Elbit Systems’ cutting edge technology and system integration capabilities and Bharat Forge’s advanced capabilities in the areas of design, engineering, manufacturing, testing and validation.
“The Strategic Cooperation between Elbit Systems and Bharat Forge, and specifically the JVC, will address Indian defence requirements with operationally proven systems from Elbit Systems that have been customized and adapted for Indian conditions and manufactured at the World class manufacturing facility for end-to–end solutions for artillery systems and armored vehicles upgrades established by Bharat Forge recently in India,” said Mr. Baba Kalyani, Chairman and Managing Director of Bharat Forge Ltd. Bezhalel (Butzi) Machlis, Elbit Systems’ Executive Vice President–President and CEO Designee, and formerly General Manager of Elbit Systems Land and C4I Division, noted: “We are proud to combine Bharat Forge’s systems integration and manufacturing expertise with Elbit Systems’ proven technology. We believe that offering innovative solutions, based on our combined vast operational experience and technological capabilities will position the JVC as a leading supplier to the Indian Ministry of Defence and other potential Indian government customers".
Bharat Forge Ltd (BFL) is the flagship company of the USD 2.5 billion Kalyani Group and a global provider of high performance, innovative, safety & critical components and solutions to various industrial sectors including Automotive, Oil & Gas, Aerospace and Rail & Marine. BFL today has the largest repository of metallurgical knowledge in the region and offers complete end to end capability from concept to testing and validation to marquee global OEM’s. At the cusp of a breakout growth & transformation into an engineering conglomerate through its aggressive foray in capital goods and infrastructure sectors, BFL is committed to proactively expedite India’s transformation into a global economic powerhouse.
To Mr.RA 13: VMT. More will follow. What you’ve seen so far is the just the first wave of the ‘tsunami’ (LoLzz!)
To RAVI: Nope. It is a permanent writeoff.
To PRATEEK: Allright, kindly allow me to explain matters in laymen’s terms. 1) In India’s parliamentary system of democracy, according to the Govt of India’s ‘Rules of Business Transactions’, policy formulation & enacting of legislation is the job of elected officials only. The Civil Service is responsible for only implementing such legislations that are gazetted into law by elected parliamentarians. Consequently, the ‘Babus’ cannot be held guilty of mismanagement or negligence. The buck stops squarely on the doorstep of the RM (Defence Minister) for it is he/she who takes the final call on all such matters. Without authorisation from the Cabinet Committee on Security, the RM cannot enact administrative reforms within the MoD & without such reforms, the ‘Babus’ cannot implement the reforms. It is a great fallacy to assume that the ‘Babus’ are the sources of all evil or that they’re dumb or buffoons. They’re some of the country’s best & brightest human resources & are all highly educated. But they cannot be expected to produce their very best if they’re made to function with their hands tied behind their backs. 2) There are always lines of succession in all 3 armed services that are NOT solely determined by human beings, but by the dates of birth of all officers, which determine the seniority of an officer. Concurrently, the annual confidential reports (ACR) of these officers determine how slowly or quickly they can climb the promotion ladder. So, ultimately, there’s always a determined line of succession especially after any officer attains a 1-star rank. 3) There are two ways of scripting one’s memoirs: either a single book or a series of books. If it is the latter, then it is possible to contextualise all issues/developments in greater detail, like what Dr Henry Kissinger or Lord Winston Churchill had done. 4) One cannot deliver a decisive verdict unless one hears both sides of the story. 5) Of course. Nothing stays constant forever. Therefore, far better to become a pessimistic optimist like I like to describe myself as.
By the way, after seeing & reading everything in this thread so far, does anyone still reckon that DEFEXPO 2014 was 'lacklustre' as portrayed by the corps of Delhi-based 'desi' journalists???
Pakistan Aeronautical Complex signed contract for 20 Super Mashaaks for US$92M with IraqiAF. PAF will also train IraqiAF pilots, contract signed for US$70M. Could have JF-17 going there pretty soon.
the recent news "www.business-standard.com/article/current-affairs/iaf-to-buy-14-tejas-squadrons-114021001237_1.html " indicates IAF may induct 300+ Tejas fighters eventually, also it states Mig-27 as one of the a/c being replaced, confirmation that Tejas will be configured for CAS or it is too premature to make such an assumption? ur thoughts?
The DEFXPO2014 was anything but lackluster it clearly defined some of the paths/routes Indian defense Dev fraternity is taking or will take. It also shows slowly but steadily pressure is building on GoI to allow more & more involvement of pvt sector in defence sector if projects like Kestrel APC are to go by.
Also the Kestrel project highlights the true role of DRDO as a R&D house. ur thoughts?
No sir, from what can be seen the current Defense expo was terrific! It finally gives us hope of an expedited modernization of the armed forces.
1) Also sir, if the Indian Army goes for the Kalyani Bharat 52 and places orders for it in bulk, what will happen to the DRDO 52cal? Doesn't it lead to unnecessary duplicity, when the same equipment is being developed by different manufacturers in different time frames?
2) Now that there is a high possibility of Private companies undertaking defense R&D, what happens when the said company and DRDO are developing the same product? For eg, if a company does R&D and develops product "A". The DRDO also does R&D on the same product and develops a more advanced version of product "A" but does this two years after the private company. In such a scenario which product will get selected?
Prasun, I think in sheer technological content and indigenous capability showcased here along with JVs and other tie ups, this defexpo probably outranks all the previous combined, in fact if any thing to go by, it showcased the country's mature technological and industrial base and of course it definitely was the coming out party for the DRDO. I think for them there is no looking back from here. I clearly see 70 to 80 % indigenisation by 2030. ..waiting for the brochures whenever you have time! Thanx!
(1) Did you notice the presence of Gazprom Bank ( if I remember correctly the bank's name) at the Russian Pavilion during DefExpo ? This came as a surprise to me . Maybe they intend to finance deals between India & Russia .
(2) In your opinion will a new Govt be able to reduce the time required between issue of an RFP and the final signing of the contract ? To my mind India is unique in this area where it take 6 10 years for a contract to be signed .
(3) Why are organizations like CII, FICCI etc unable to effectively lobby for industries in India ? Is it because some major Indian companies have established a monopoly over these organizations
1. In the LPH contract, why is HMS Ocean class not even present? It has a wider deck, better helo capacity and a proven design, in comparison to others. So why its not even in contention? And what is the status of that competition?
2. Has there been any update on AVRO replacement program? You had mentioned once that Lockheed Martin and Tata are eager to produce C-130J super hercules in India in that program. The issue is when that option is on table, why was St Anty in hurry to award 6XC-130J contract last year, which fortunately has not been signed yet?
3. Has there been any attempt or proposal to reorganize OFB factories into major categories, for example, gun and rifle maker, ammo maker, heavy vehicle maker, tools, clothing and ancillaries makers etc. Has there been any attempt to corporatise them as per their specialisation? IF no, then why are they being allowed to fritter away resources by making everything? Even Chinese are smarter in this regard!
4. What is the response of MoD/IA on Kalyani's gun, Tata's gun and OFB's gun?
Can you plz respond to some fundamental questions:
1. How large and strong is the import lobby in India? How much clout they have and how far the corruption goes? Which countries are exceptionally master in this tradecraft?
2. Is IA and IAF actually very pro-import and hate Indian products? How does it benefit them? A general once mentioned that GSQRs are written such strictly that no Indian product matches it. Is it true or its more than meets the eye?
3. What is a better way to acquire weapons? How can one cut the time between RFI, RFP, Trials, CNC and final conclusion of contract?
4. Why do weapon trials in India take so long? There are four seasons available in India all year. So why can't MoD finish trials in couple of months?
Dear Prasun, recently I came to know that the Chinese J-10C is so advanced that it will otdate the European and American planes. Then how the Tejas Mk. 1 and Tejas Mk. 2 will fare against it??? Plz explain.
To RAW13: Procurement of Super Mushaaks does not automatically translate into an assured procurement of fixed-wing combat aircraft. At most, such aircraft will be used for training the Iraqi AF’s future fixed-wing pilots that are meant to fly aircraft like the Tucano or PC-7 Mk2. It takes at least a decade for an air force like the Iraqi AF to raise a cadre of aircrew capable of converting to MRCAs. Next, the Iraqi AF will be procuring basic turboprop trainers, followed by primary/intermediate jet trainers & then AJTs. Only after this will a MRCA procurement follow a decade later.
To SACHIN SATHE: It is still premature to speculate about the eventual fleet strength of the Tejas Mks1/2 fleet. Obviously, the bulk of the fleet will comprise tejas Mk2s. As for CAS, I had already stated way before that Tejas Mk1 MRCA can easily be optimised for CAS roles when using lightweight PGMs. India’s military-industrial capacities in the private-sector can definitely take quantum leaps but ONLY IF the long-overdue administrative reforms are undertaken by the MoD & the CCNS. Kestrel APC is an ideal armoured battle-taxi & it should be used as one, instead of trying to convert it into an ICV. Choice of javelin ATGMs mounted on the RCWS is another ideal choice.
To VIDYUT: 1) The answer is simple & elementary: adopt the Bharat-52 package & NOT the Dhanush. 2) Again elementary: just avoid such needless duplication. For instance, instead of developing the ATAGS, the DRDO should focus on developing along with BAE Systems a 155mm/52-cal naval main gun. That will be a far better option instead of importing 127mm naval guns from BAE Systems.
To VIKRAM GUHA: 1) Not for financing deals, but serving as an EXIM bank for providing credit for JVs like BrahMos Aerospace. 2) Everything’s possible, provided the necessary administrative reforms are carried out within the MoD. 3) It cannot be done for as long as the administrative reforms are not carried out. The Secretary for Defence Production & Supplies presently is a Board member in all DPSUs & therefore he cannot be expected to lobby in favour of the private sector, since that will tantamount to conflict of interest. Only when this Secretary becomes the Secretary for Defence Industrialisation will a level playing field emerge.
To KRIS: 1) Only BAE Systems answer that. 2) No updates so far. But the writing on the wall is that the C-130J will eventually be ordered. 3) Nothing of that sort is happening. 4) Bharat-52 & Caesar have evinced keen interest from the IA. OFB’s Dhanush isn’t exactly a OFB-made howitzer as yet. All the six prototypes were upgunned versions of existing FH-77Bs. So far, OFB has only fabricated the 155mm/45-cal barrel, nothing else. Therefore, in terms of quantum of indigenisation from raw material stage, Bharat-52 is leagues ahead of the Dhanush.
To RAKESH: 1) There’s no such thing as an import lobby. It’s all about securing the best available option, the source doesn’t matter. 2) Not at all. If that were the case, then the IA would never even have bothered to request the CVRDE to further improve the Arjun Mk1 & the IAF would never have accepted licence-built Su-30MKMIs. 3) Undertake the long-overdue administrative reforms within the MoD. For instance, for a specific project, just raise a single, unitary project file, instead of raising a ‘Services File’ & a ‘Ministry File”. And secondly, have the civil servant & the uniformed officer dealing with this project located under the same roof & sitting side-by-side so that none of them have any secrets to hide & both have equal access to information within the unitary Project File. Then automatically, civil-military animosities will disappear & teamwork will prevail, thereby ensuring speedy decision-making. 4) Even a year-long field evaluation period is acceptable, since the delays never occur there. Delays always occur when files have to be shuffled between various involved agencies/depts.—about 16 in all.
To SNTATA: Upgraded Mirage 2000UPG is a MMRCA, while Tejas Mk1 is MRCA. Furthermore, the former has a more advanced defensive aids suite. Those are the only differences worth highlighting.
To SOUBHAGYA: Again, J-10C is a MMRCA, whereas Tejas is a MRCA. That’s the only difference.
To FINANCEBLOGGER: These are all minor glitches always encountered during a historic non-stop ferry journey. After all, the INS Vikramaditya sailed into INS Kadamba on its own power, thereby proving that the vessel's crew complement & its 167 Russian warranty/product-support technical personnel always had matters under control. But yes, incidents of IN personnel sharing details/photos of the ferry voyage on social-media is indeed worrisome & these need to be clamped down upon through strict internal disciplinary action.
P-15A should have been equipped with RAN-40L from the outset. Instead from the picture, the RAN-40L radar chosen for P-71A has been dropped for older RAWL radar? Phew!
Thanks for posting fabulous snaps of def.expo 14 sir plz post snaps of rustom 2 if taken by u. And plzz share it's details and specs. Sorry for asking of the topic qs. http://www.janes.com/article/30056/satellite-imagery-reveals-mystery-supergun-in-chinese-desert sir what in ur opinion is this a rail gun or any type of advanced canon and what do think that can chinese match or get close to the development made by United states in this tech. Right now. Any indian advancments in this technology. Thanks in advance !!!!
1) Will the MCIWS defeintly enter iA service? And if so when?
b) what will the MCIWS delivered to the regular grunts come with? We saw them being displayed with a Raptor RDS and pistol grip at DEFEXPO- will this configuration be delivered to ever IA soldier?
2) What will come of the AW-101 deal now? 3 units are in India right now doing nothing of any use to the nation and AW is in the mix for many other Indian defence contracts- it's a complete mess, what will happen?
3) You had said that a foreign RCSW would be selected for the ARJUN MK.2, what became of these plans? That OFB NAVAL RCWS looks ABSURD on that tank.
4) when will the foreign multi-cal rifles be delivered and which units will be equipped with them?
5) what is going on with the S-70B/NMRH deal? Whilst a lot has been said for the Ah-64 and CH-47 deals for the IAF, almost NOTHING has been said on the s-70b and considering the age of the Sea Kings the need for their replacement is a MUST. When will a deal emerge?
Do you see the KESTRAL APC from TATA being inducted into service? It seems to be a very good platform but then the iA was also looking for a tracked APC so where would the IA go then?
1. Tata Kestrel looks good but it doesn't have a V-hull design. Will it be further modified? Will it be inducted? What does IA thinks about it?
2. S-70B helos are being phased out of Australia and they are inducting MH-60R helos on FMS. They why did we reject MH-60R and looking for S-70B2?
3.How does licence production work? When HAL produces Su-30MKI or AJT Hawk, how much licence fee it has to give back? IS it in percentage or fixed rate? How does it work out in Ak-630 gun, MILAN 2T missiles etc?
Hi Prasun why on earth are we going in for the older zsu-23-4 from ukraine .I believe it was good during its time in the arab israeli war, but it is too short ranged compared to the more effective oerlikon 35 mm systems that fire ahead rounds .I wonder what happened to the israeli upgrade with a small phased array radar and electro optics as well.? In My opinion it will be better to go in for the oerlikon guns and mount it on trucks as shown in a tata picture.
Lately, I have seen the nature of debates shifting in Pakistan especially on their TV. Experts like Najam Sethi, Muneef, ex-Air Force people, a new group of rising community of mature thinkers, all are discussing issues of Pakistan with lot of maturity and confidence. Given the nature of Pak politics and dominance of Pak military and terrorists/fundas, the nature of these media debates are completely against stereo-typical Pakistan. They are not hesitant in criticising anyone and seem quite forceful in their arguments. Their approach of thinking is also quite realistic.
Does it mean that in general, Pakistanis have started becoming or rather aspiring to become a mature and better democracy? Or at-least their media is?
What is your opinion?
BTW in general, I have seen many Pak experts giving arguments that India is out there to get them. India wants to gobble Pakistan and other similar blah blah.
I couldn't suppress my laugh while being astonished. Why the hell would India like to have another 180 million of trouble (mostly terrorists/fundas) in our lands? Once you agree to taking Pak in, tomorrow Bangladeshis would start knocking.
NO WAY, India can even think of grabbing Pakistan/Bangaldesh in future, NO WAY. If you asked we young generation of Indians, we would build an Israeli concrete wall on border so that any idea of them coming this side not even come up in future.
I may have to endup creating my "raw13" handle. Why do others use that...makes no sense to me, afterall Prasun allows you to post, under whatever id you want. Its a chance to show your individuality.
at the moment i have started reading the book: "The Hindus: An Alternative History" By Wendy Doniger.
There is a beautiful quote by an indian who is admired by many pakistanis: " Even if I am killed, I will not give up repeating the names of Rama and Rahim, which mean to me the same god. With these names on my lips, I will die cheerfully. Mahatma Gandhi, 1947 "
Mr.Prasun Dont tell me such a big nation with 1.3billion brains unable to come with own warmachines??? Always rslying on smaller countries like Britain, Japan, Israel & even S.Korea??? Where is India heading??? Such a disappoinment
To PRATEEK: Those formations equipped with F-INSAS (as will the mechanized infantry formations) will be the ones to get 8 x 8 APCs like the Kestrel. Nos earmarked for each formation have not yet been finalised. The Kestrel on paper appears to be far better than the LAC-25/Piranha/Stryker family of 8 x 8s. There’s no need for para armoured/mechanised units. After all,. Where are they likely to be used & against whom? Such vehicles are easily transportable by transports like the C-17A & IL-76MDs & therefore don’t need to be air-dropped. Even the PLAAF’s 15th Airborne Corps does not boast of such capabilities.
To SREENIVAS R: Marreech is used for decoying torpedoes. Kavach is used for dispensing chaff to confuse the terminal seekers of inbound anti-ship cruise missiles.
To SHAH: Pics of Rustom-2 were taken but since LIVEFIST has uploaded them, I decided not to. That’s an experimental electromagnetic rail-gun being tested-out by the Chinese. It should not come as a surprise at all since China since the late 1970s has always used the US as its benchmark in almost all spheres of military-industrial activity. No such R & D activity has been initiated by the DRDO so far.
To GOOGLER: 1) Of course it will in the latter half of this decade. I’m 1,000% certain. B) That’s the plan. 2) The procurement process can always be re-started by someone who is a leader who thinks logically & is a discerning individual. 3) A lightweight RCWS is being developed in-house by ARDE, that’s what I was told. 4) The first Mechanised Infantry Brigade that adopts F-INSAS will be equipped with such weapons. 5) It will emerge by this October.
To SEARCHER: The MoD’s DPP rules dictate that competitive bids will have to be called for the 8 x 8 APC competition. The Kestrel will be only one of the several; contenders from France, the US, Austria, Italy, Switzerland, Ukraine, Russia, Romania, and Turkey.
To VJ: 1) It has only been unveilled as a static display. Proof of the pudding always lies in its eating. Therefore, the Kestrel’s true capabilities will become known only after it has been subjected to field trials. 2) Australia has had a long history of making spectacularly disastrous procurement decisions. Just look at what happened with the Kaman Super Seasprite. 3) The licence fee is part of the overall contract value & is a tiny sum. Bulk of the costs concern the setting up of industrial facilities in-country for producing various components, sub-systems, & airframe structures. The same goes for all licence-built products.
Critising someone or something does not translate into functional democracy. Pakistan still has a very long way to go before becoming a functional democracy because its political classes themselves are intellectually stunted & don’t have a national perspective on most matters of importance.
To RAD: The upgraded ZSU-23-4 Schilkas are still extremely potent weapons for battlefield air-defence, where low-flying aircraft & attack helicopters have to be engaged. Base air-defence is a totally different ballgame, since aircraft attacking a base don’t engage in low-level flights.
To RAJARUBAN CHETTIAR RAJINDRAM: Of course she is capable. But, if an army of lions is commanded & led by a donkey, then the result will always be disastrous. On the other hand, if an army of donkeys is led by a lion, only then can spectacular results be achieved. Get my drift?
To ABS: This is nothing new & it was going on even during the reign of the Left Front. So why is the Left Front now crying foul???
Mr.Prasun, My question is not whether can India win a war with China or any nations. The question is India's money is flowing out of the country by purchasing foreign weapons when she can invest the same amount of money to research on its own. Look at China, Japan, S.Korea for instance, their R&D is more advanced in every sense and their defence output is higher than their imports. How could India dream of being a world superpower when she still relies on foreign imports. Being a superpower starts from self-reliance & able to influence countries around her
To RAJARUBAN CHETTIAR RAJINDRAM: With the exception of China, all the other countries you’ve mentioned are all importing their principal weapon systems & platforms from the US & Europe. Therefore, India is no exception. But I agree with you in terms of the need to increase by a moderate quantum the amount of funds to be spent on military R & D, the dire need to mentor innovations & creativity & empower India’s SMEs to scale much greater heights.
Thanks sir. Sometimes looking at India which once a worldpower herself lagging behind other countries now is quite saddening. As an Bharat descandant, we all should feel a great responsibility on this. Thanks for sharing sir.
@raw13, what a split personality you have. When @Messenger asked you why raw13 is not protesting while his handle is being used by others, you made use of the opportunity. You shoot two birds with one shot.
First you showed your true colors by wanting to separate India into smaller chunks and brilliantly backed up by using @RAW13 handle and there by if anyone questions you, you wanted to backup by saying you usually use @raw13 handle not @RAW13 handle.
Again as @Messenger insisted you said your handle is being abused.
what a creativity??
This is similar to the idea of collecting some one else blood, skin and hair samples and spill/leave them at the site of crime scene, so as to implicate the innocents.
But technology never lie. Your IP logs show you are one and the same.
142 comments:
Prasun Da, great to have access of the sneak peek, through your lens, waiting for it, many many thanks !
dada when ins kolkata and kamrota 'll join navy?? Any updates?? And what abt barak2 'll it be ready by the time ins kolkata joins navy?? Thnks in adv..
To PINTU: VMT. Rest assured that many many more will be uploaded in the days ahead. This is the first time the SR-SAM's naval variant is being showcased through the above-uploaded poster.
To JYOTI SEN: Both will be commissioned later this year for sure. Yes, Barak-2 will be ready by then.
what is the purpose of two oil tanks at the back of the Arjun MK1/2?
Avilash
Prasun,
What form of technical assistance for the Fulcrums did the IAF provide to the RMAF at Pune? And since all the manuals were in Russian who's responsibility was it to have it translated for the RMAF or were translations provided by the IAF?
If a customer like the IN wanted to install a VLS module amidships in the Scorpene to free up all the tubes for mines/torps, would it be technically difficult and costly to do?
From what I've read Chile's Scoepenes do not have a watertight cofferdam section as its boats operate in deep waters but that since the RMN operates mostly withing the continental shelf, its 2 boats have a watertight cofferdam section. What about the IN's Scorpenes? And do the Kilos and Type 209s have it?
vmt for posting those snaps sir my qs. Is sir as u told before that army needs 155/52 cal howitzer but drdo is showcasing 155/45 cal howitzer so, is this also a dud project like prahar or 130 mm arjun mk1 hull mated sph. Or they are really intrested in it.
2)When are we going to see lch td3
3)some of troops are using tavor tar 21 and now ofb is making a indian version of it ZITTARA so can we presume that it will kill the drdo mcar gun.
Thanks in advance
Interesting picture
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-bQFYlrdqQNM/UIzxPVgJp9I/AAAAAAAAe_I/Go6iH9pPa74/s1600/zubr.jpg
Interesting read
http://english.pravda.ru/news/world/30-06-2004/57836-0/
--muttu
it looks like japan is going to build its own 5th gen....things are going to get interesting.
http://www.defensenews.com/article/20120330/DEFREG03/303300003/Japan-Begins-Building-Technology-Demonstrator-Fighter
adey mottai muttu, its 2004 article maire
Prasunda,
Thanks for the pictures..
Upload more, more and more plz.
Thanks in advance.
Prasun,
when will the ARJUN get a new RCWS? The current one destroys the looks of this otherwise dealt looking machine and really is far too big and cumbersome to be on top of a tank. You has said SAAB was in the running? Any updates?
Good morning !! woke up to some good photo's......thanks !!!
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/tech/tech-news/internet/Huawei-facing-probe-for-hacking-BSNL-network/articleshow/29909426.cms
is there any link between this and two scientist died recently who were from ATV program,
Prasun Da ,
According to Russia & India Report the Msta-S 155mm is undergoing trials in India .
Is this true & if YES what are the chances that the IA will select the Msta-S 155mm ?
Regards,
Sujoy
No fume extractor seen on the barrel of Arjunk. Plus the look is very rudimentary, is it a prototype?...
Dear Prasun,
Belated Happy Birthday...a bit too late may be, but nonetheless.
Thanks for the pics...waiting for more fodder...
Updates on Arjun/FMBT would be highly appreciated
Questions:
1. If you remember, i had asked about the centerline/underbelly pylon of the tejas in a previous post as i had never seen anything on it.Now there are reports that underbelly drop-tank integration has just started.Is there any truth to this?? Mr Anantha Krishnan seems to report so
http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/2014/02/tejas-set-to-begin-high-altitude-trials.html
(Please look at the 2nd last line of the post)
2. Do we have any MRSI capability as far as Artillery is concerned?
Regards,
Arpan
Prasun da, First day first show. Lucky you. Do you have any idea how much is the ticket for general visitors? Their website doesn't mention the price anywhere. Thanks
When you look at these pics it is easy to understand why the Indian Forces would prefer to import. Surely it makes more sense to licence produce one of the latest/top 155mm out there. I am sure singapore, BAE would be happy to oblige and they could be built in india. What is stopping india going down this route?
I mean honestly which other country would have a guy manually paint like that! Any developed country would have a spray gun with the operator dressed appropriately and paid better of course. Regardless of the ability it would be hard pressed to sell such a tank to anyone else - the QC oozes of uncertainty.
here's India developing cryogenic engine etc and yet in a simple International cricket tournament guys in thongs, or bare feet, wearing a dhoti or old khaki sweeping with a broom (those made of coconut sticks)- compare this with other countries that play cricket (Bangladesh and Pakistan excepted). Tradition is one thing but making oneself a laughing stock to the world is an Indian pastime it seems. So is it any wonder that aircrafts, ships, tanks are manually built like they used to be 100 years ago without the QC of course.
Plenty plenty of new updates, I shit you all not! And plenty of photos as well. Will try to upload them by 10pm tonight. Kindly bear with me.
Prasun Da ,
As always thanks a lot for covering the DefExpo in such great detail .
I have 2 questions :
(1) The US 2 deal if struck with Japan will be quite unique coz it will be signed very quickly .How was this made possible given that deals take 5 yrs or more to be signed after release of RFP ?
(2) What can Indian Private & Public shipyards possibly export ?
Thank You
Vikram
@Pierre Zorin,
Yes what you mentioned are hard facts. But these do get changed over time. We are some 1-2 generations behind the developed world. When the next 2 generations get educated they get more exposure to the world, they get more educated on the living standards and by chance they get their hands on good things. Till then we have to have to go through these things... Yes automation is yet to come to India especially in Manufacturing... These tanks are made in Chennai, which is India's detroit. chennai makes Hyundai and BMW and everything in between. Still in the same city we makes railway coaches and tanks with not so sophisticated or automated methods. Yes we need subjects starting from 6th std till 10th on so many things such as living healthy, diseases, social and govt functioning, banks, postal, railways, health almost about everything we have to teach them including driving... yes from class 6th. we learn non-sense history and other classes but we have to scrap them and start these subjects first...
It is hard for me to see people carrying 50-100 kilo bags on heads and shoulders where we can use simple equipment such as pump-trucks and pallets... time to get educated and change..
The most hilarious part is our neighbours do comment on us with out looking at their plight... simply hilarious.....
Prasun Da ,
The MoU for MicroObserver Unattended Ground Sensor System that BEL signed with Textron today :
(1) was it being negotiated for a long time
(2) who will market it in INDIA , BEL or Textron .
VMT
Vikram
Hello Prasun,
1. Interesting to see the LR SAM update
2. Waiting eagerly for the updates but..
3.Sad day today when the Def min announced that the MMRCA deal will not go through this fiscal.That will be a delay of another six months at the earliest.
Pierre Zorin & Messenger ,
You need the understand the mindset of our Govt .
They have NO interest in protecting us unlike the Govt of US , Japan Israel and EU .
Our Govt feels there are already 1 billion people too many. So it's good if a few hundred die in terrorist attacks . It's good if a few thousand die in floods & cyclones . Good if a few lakhs get killed in road accidents every year.
This is why the Govt will not stop terrorist attacks nor will it enforce road safety rules .
Bottomline is our Govt. will go out of it's way to ensure that we die almost as soon as we are born .
Regards,
Sujoy
To AVILASH: Increase the MBT’s endurance by avoiding the need to proceed to the nearest field refuelling station, which in any case won’t be available in hostile territory.
To FARIS: Only technical type training to some 110 engineers & technicians from the RMAF/TUDM. All manuals supplied by RAC-MiG were in English. Of course opening up any hull is a costly exercise. All SSKs have to operate in deeper waters than beyond the continental shelf but to proceed there they first have to transit through shallow waters.
SHAH: You will have to be at DEFEXPO 2013 to see how pathetic the state of affairs is. Will explain it all in the narrative above ASAP.
To GOOGLER: The 190kg RCWS from OFB will stay for the moment.
To SUJOY MAJUMDAR: Not true. In fact, even the Samsung Techwin/L & T K-9 Thunder that was at DEFEXPO 2012 was offered for field evaluations on a no-cost no-commitment basis. But the IA refused to evaluate it & consequently after a 6-month wait, the K-9 was ferried to Chennai & was shipped back to the ROK.
By the way, today I got it right from the horse’s mouth (NPO Saturn): the Klimov AL-55I turbofan for the HJT-36 IJT DOES INDEED HAVE A TTSL of only 300 hours!!! One wonders who in their right mind will select such an engine that will drive the direct operating costs of the HJT-36 through the roof!!!
To GOPHER: Fume extractors are seen only in field artillery howitzers, not in cannons of MBTs.
To ARPAN: Yes, the centreline pylon will be able to hold both LGB & fuel tank. Presently, no MRSI-capable operational howitzers exist within India. Only the 155X45 Dhanush from OFB, Bharat 52 from Kalyani Group & TATA Power SED’s 155mm/52-cal motorised howitzer have MRSI capability.
To DAEDALUS: Can’t help you there mate, for even I don’t know the price. But you could call up FICCI to get that data.
To PIERRE ZORIN: Actually, you frequently see such guys in Europe, Russia & Southeast Asia imparting the finishing touches ONE DAY BEFORE any military-industrial expo officially opens its gates. This is routine & nothing out-of-the-blue.
To VIKRAM GUHA: Where there is a will, there’s a way. Once political push from the highest levels are exerted, then matters obviously get accelerated. The sad part is India often has to bend backwards for no apparent reason in order to attain such speeds in procurement decisions. For instance, just because Japanese PM Shinzo Abe was the Chief Guest for this year’s Republic Day Parade, some joker within the PMO or MEA decided that it would be ‘unwise’ to showcase India’s strategic missiles during the parade!
Then there’s the extremely sorry spectacle of seeing the OFB on one hand display its 155X45 Dhanush towed howitzer, while the Kalyani Group/Bharat Forge display its 100% locally built Bharat 52 155mm/52-cal howitzer. In no other country such a needless frittering away of national military-industrial resources is showcased. In China there’s only NORINCO’s exhibits, while in the UK it used to be Vickers & Royal Ordnance (both offering different systems), while in France it used to be GIAT Industries (now Nexter Systems) while in the US it was FMC Corp (now part of BAE Systems). I have absolutely no reason to believe that the Bharat 52 will stand any chance in India, not because it is not superior to the OFB’s & DRDO’s solutions, but because it will NEVER even be invited to a competitive bidding process. And why? Because the OFB’s Dhanush will be ordered, & it will be followed later by the DRDO’s ATAGS. Still don’t believe me? Here then are the figures from the MoD: As of now, orders worth Rs.165,000 crore are parked with the PSUs, whereas the private-sector has only Rs.9,000 crore in orders from the MoD & PSUs.
The UGS is already in service in large numbers throughout J & K along the LoC & IB. Now the CRPF & BSF too will be acquiring them & BEL will do the in-country servicing & product-support.
To ZUBIN: Why do you sound so surprised? Everyone knew that the MMRCA contract award wasn’t meant for fiscal 2013-2014, but in fiscal year 2014-2015. 85% of the contract negotiations are already over, as per figures quoted by RM A K Antony this morning. But far more interesting is that both Eurofighter GmbH & Eurojet are exhibiting at DEFEXPO 2014.
To VIKRAM GUHA, SUJOY MAJUMDAR & ZUBIN: Was also really astonished to see the SAGEM-supplied SIGMA-30 RLG-INS mounted just aft of the muzzle velocity radar on the barrel's top-section. Have never seen such a configuration in any other 155mm towed howitzer anywhere else so far. The model on display at the expo is the 6th prototype of the 155X45/Dhanush. No one 155mm/39-cal version has been ordered from the OFB.
Another surprise was the OFB's in-house development of the VT-72B ARV. This means the Bumar-built ARVs marketed by BEML will no longer be acquired. Surprisingly, BEML has a very small booth at the expo. I guess BEML has been told to maintain an extremely low-profile this time.
Another surprise: the IN is scouting for a retractable hull-mounted panoramic sonar of foreign origin for the Project 71/IAC-1/INS Vikrant.
Finally, Kalyani Group has teamed up with RAFAEL to offer a deep-upgrade package for the BMP-2 ICV.
Prasun Da ,
This is just disgusting that GOI doe not provide a level playing field to Private companies .
What is FICCI , CII , ASSOCHAM doing ?
FICCI sponsors the DefExpo .
Why can't they file a lawsuit against GOI stating that they are involved in discriminatory practices ?
GOI is hell bent on proving that ours is a banana republic .
Thank You
Vikram
Hi Prasun,
Regarding the GOI's finances, many ppl in the media have highlighted how P.Chidambaram is missing the fiscal deficit target and how he is pushing a lot of the expenses next year to the new government and how a lot of short term debt in securities will have to be paid out to investors who bought them from this year. Any idea how much more irresponsible the govt. can get or how much more govt can borrow? there should be ceiling after whcih the govt will realize no way out except reforms(cut red tape and sell PSU)? There will have to be a point after which foreign investors will get fed up and ignore indian govt. bonds because returns are not sustainable by the govt. govt revenues + debt financing will not be enough to meet the spending and interest rates will go high up enough to make it impossible to borrow?
How amazing was the spectacle of our moronic raksha mantri teling the world that we don't have cash to buy arms,crucial projects like MMRCA,C-130j,M-777 all are stuck and our defence preparedness has gone to the dogs.But as they say shit happens!!!!!Thank you St.Antony, and this chap had the audacity to say that we'll buy VVIP choppers shortly in the same press confernce.What an utter moron.
Sir,I'm no modi bhakt,but i really wish to see him becoming PM definitely better than these lame-duck idiots,you think that'll happen??
Prasun Da ,
VMT for the profound insights .
(1) Can the IN purchase a hull-mounted panoramic sonar without going in for a RFI/RFP ?
(2) Re Kalyani group JV with Rafael for the BMP 2 were these discussions going on for quite some time & they used the Defexpo to simply announce it ?
Regards,
Sujoy
Guys, the priority for this Govt in FY 2013 has always been to 1) acquire land to build banks in rural areas for NREGA. 2) Award contracts for building such structures. 3) Instructing all Govt-owned central banks to each open 800 bank-branches in those districts pre-identified for NREGA implementation. 4) Instructing BSNL to lay fibre-optic cables to ensure connectivity with all these banks. Now, from where will the money for all this come from? That's why I have always maintained that politicians in India know of only vote-banks & retail-banks. Nothing more, nothing less. These jokers even transferred money from FY 2013 defence budget's capital account to the revenue account to just be able to pay for salaries, administrative & logistics reqmts. And despite all this, one wants to raise a Mountain Strike Corps? What a spectacular joke indeed!!! China & Pakistan are laughing at us to their heart's content, kindly rest assured.
Prasun ,
The private-sector has only Rs.9,000 crore in orders from the MoD & PSUs.
What type of orders are these ?
I hear companies as big as TATA is not making enough money so they are focusing on Exports ?
Many Thanx
To VIKRAM GUHA: FICCI sponsoring DEFEXPO??? The MoD has outsourced the organising of DEFEXPO to FICCI after inviting competitive bids from CII, FICCI & ASSOCHAM. It is FICCI that makes money from this expo as well as from Aero India & pays the MoD for renting the exhibition area. FICCI considers such expos to be money-making exercises, nothing less.
To DEFENSE & AEROSPACE: Mostly sub-contracting by the PSUs to the private-sector. TATA Power SED's motorised 155mm/52-cal howitzer jointly developed with DENEL Land Systems was originally targetted for Indonesia, as I had reported during DEFEXPO 2012. It was only AFTER Indonesia selected the Caesar that TATA decided to offer its solution to India.
You are correct PrasunDa .
My bad .
I was trying to say that Industries should hold FICCI accountable for not lobbying with GOI to ensure a level playing field . Came out wrong.
I think Mr.Sujoy Majumdar has put it rather bluntly in his above comments , but maybe he is right that GOI want's just an opportunity to get us killed .
Thanks again .
Prasun da,
what do you make of the shaped armor/covering in place of the square box where the ALWACS is placed on the Arjun? Is that the actual cover for the IR CM system?
Did anyone take any shots of the Bharat 52?
What did you make of TATA's Kestrel and the 7.5 ton LAMV? We had discussed the need for a JLTV for the IA, the LMAV seems to fit the bill specially if its equipped with a compact (ergo not the OFB one) RCWS. The Kestrel should really do well as a wheeled trop carrier for our RAPIDS, no?
Great pics Prasun, takes us to some of the excitement.
1. What is truly baffling is the glut of Arty systems that have suddenly hit the trial /eval stage, you may be right about the ATAGS by DRDO and you know, in a way , perversely though , it may be a positive development simply for the fact that in the future we will not be delayed by these killing procurement process etc. But this link is again confusing when each company is doing their own thing and still want to collaborate. Clarify if you can please.
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2013-01-06/india/36173272_1_drdo-development-establishment-bofors
2. The Arjun catapult seems to again be another stupid decision...who asked for a 26 km 130 mm gun, with manual laying systems??!!
3. Deep upgrade of the BMP-2! what about the FICV program? why both running parallel
4. Seems to be positive development on the Aerostat front...very encouraging.
5. Any prog on the small arms esp for crew served night sights and individual soldier wpn sights ?
Thanx , though a million questions to ask. look forward to tomorrows posts. Excellent wk
PrasunDa ,
Eurofighter still advertising in DefExpo
AND
Saint Anthony says MMRCA deal to be signed by next Govt.
This could well mean that the MMRCA deal can be opened again and the Super Hornet might just well seal the deal given the fact that BJP has generally been more closer to Uncle SAM
In the interim IAF will have to purchase LCA MK1 .
Regards,
Sujoy
What is weight the of brahmos M ?
at Prasun on February 6, 2014 at 11:26 PM
Fume extractor can be seen in almost all tanks. E.g. abrams, alkhalid etc. Here s a pic of M1 abrams at wikipeida:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Abrams
So what's the deal with Arjunk?
Prasun,
Why is that the case wrt the OFB RCWS? This RCWS is a total joke- look at it! You had said a foreign RCWS would be procured and the SAAB and ELBIT offerings looked 1000 times better
1)iir seeker posted in above picture,is developed by DRDO or foreign company.
2)is GOI going to ink any artillery deals.
@Prasun da
a few questions
1. 'No Decision Taken To Debar Agusta Westland', RM said in parliament, does it mean their is still hope for the VVIP deal to go through
2. France is looking to sell MMP ATGM to IA that will replace Milan, why go for so many ATGMs Nag, Helina, Javelin, Milan and now MMP
3. You say the Arjun catapult is not needed, then why is DRDO adament on forcing it down the throat of IA
4. Just learnt from Bharat Karnad blog that the British destroyed a no. of B25 mitchell bombers in kanpur it considered as surplus before going out of India, if true then i can only say that it makes my blood boil at the criminal waste and deliberate intention to cripple IAF
5. Bharat Karnad also says its better to lease as many Tu160 than spending 35K crores on PAKFA/FGFA and contribute and buy PAKDA that may fly in 2030s, your views
BTW just leant the British PM is shedding CROCODILIAN TEARS begging Scotland not separate from Britain, I say let these MCP BSers feel the pain and sorrow of division, something they did in 1947 diving India under religious lines and further cutting India into princely states. A pain that still hurts us.
Sir, 1.What is the range of the srsam? What is the status of the Maitri project? when will this system enter operational service with army anf airforce? 2.Instead of replacing the Barak-1 with Srsam on the Brahmaputra class, wont it be better to install the 70 km Lrsam on these vessels? After Maitri gets operational will In replace Barak-1 on its existing principal surface combatants with Maitri ? 3.Which is IA's favoured choice in the Srsam tender in which Bamsr,Tor-2ME on a Tata 6x6,etc are participating? Wont IA procure any radar guided AAA for which it had selected the Rheinmetall Skyranger ? Has IA taken any decision in thid regard? 4.What are the new developements on Nirbhay and Bmd phase-2?Is the Drdo pavilion displaying any models of the PDV and Ad-1,2 interceptors. Can you pls ask the guys in the Drdo pavilion what is the developemental status of these interceptors,will the Pdv,Ad-1,2 combo be actually operationally deployed, when is Drdo going to conduct the 1st launch of Pdv, whether Pdv has a definitive kill vehicle like the Raytheon LEAP and what are the new radars being designed and developed to support these new intetceptors. 5. In a previous thread on Javelin and Smaw procurement from US, you had also highlighted the Bmp-2 k upgrade program having Kliver turret, Tisas and Elbit TI, new engine and additional addon,composite armour from Mku. You have said that this Bmp-2 upgrade is now being carried ouy in the various Eme workshops. Then which is this Rafale and Kalyani Jv upgrade for Bmp-2 and this will be applied to which Bmp-2?
Contd.
6. Whats the use for Brahmos Mini
7. You say the IA need for MGS calls for separate loader vehicle but in the Caeser pic a lot of space is their between the barrel and cabin, that space be used to store and load shells, your views
thanks
Joydeep Ghosh
Prasunda,
so the green
box(which was seen on Republic day) of Arjun MK2 will be there in the new housing, so it isn't
gone permanently. If it's part of LAHAT FCS then it
should be a laser designator and the small
window is for the optics. If I'm not wrong Merkava designates Lahat from gunner's main sight.In the parade it looks like a
hollow metal cavity, it is now filling the space earlier
covered by the box to make it
streamlined with K-5 ERA plates.
What is your thought?
Abhinab
Sir, I've been looking all over the net for pictures and the MCIWS rifle sure looks great. Please allocate a portion of your upcoming narrative to explain some info about this gun...VMT in advance.
Prasunda,
1. IS it possible to add VLS tubes, diesel engines and AIP (MESMA/Stirling) in the French Barracuda subamrine? Whether they will allow or not is another matter, but is it possible? Will it be adequate for our P75I sub requirement and be able to launch Brahmos?
2. S-80 is in trouble and SORYU won't be sold. Other options are all crappy and logistically, they will a night mare. So what are the better options?
3. Why is P75I being touted as 12 billion deal? When nuclear subs cost as much, is it suitable to pay that much for a diesel sub?
Please enlighten me and also post some pics of Kalyani's 52 Cal gun.
Thanks
Sir, In the Brahmos Indutry complex slide, it is mentioned Data patterns provides the fire control system,scan.is the Sar seeker?And nowadays isnt the Granit sar seeker of Brahmos imported from St Petersburg?
What are the specs of Brahmos-M? What is its range and payload?Does it use a smaller dia version of the Brahmos Granit seeker?
Is there any cluster muntions,air burst payload for Brahmos. Will such payloads be developed?Cluster munitiosn will come handy when an airfield or armour concentration is being targetted.
Are there firm orders for srsam from airforce,army, navy.How many launchers/firing units and missiles has army contracted for till now.
Tor-M2KM is touted as an anti PGM and anti RAM by Almaz Antey.It is claimed of being capable of intercepting alcm lacm and even HARM.
Will srsam be developed into such a system capable of intercepting anti-radiation missiles and terrain hugging cruise missiles?If so srsam can be used for providing protection to ASR radars.
Is the p15a Kolkata class having any ciws - Barak-1,Ak-630?
How many Lrsam is Kolkata class having-48 or 64, the no varies by source.
Pipavav defense and Atlas has teamed up to produce heavy weight torpedos for navy. Is this for the Seahake mod4ER model?Does this mean Indian navy has showed interest in Seahake and it will surely procure them for its principal surface combatants.
Thanks Prasun Da for posting these pics.
what is detection Range of ashwin and Arudhra s-band radars???
Prasunda,
What is the difference in EULA restrictions for an FMS sale and a normal bid based sale?
Why some of the weapons from US are available through FMS like MH60R helo but not through bidding?
@Prasunda I was always an admirer of NaMo's administrative skills, however as the days progress it appears he has everything it takes to emerge as a "Leader Who Can Take Difficult Decisions Without Any Difficulty". I feel he is very well aware and many of this blogs views have rubbed off onto his speeches.
And I'm eagerly awaiting your reply to Mr.Phil in there,whenever some brainfart comes up and posts ludicrous observations, I feel no need of giving it back to them, cuz I know you excel in such roles more than words can describe :)
Regards
Prasunda,
Thanks for giving us a virtual tour of defexpo2014. Happy to see some indigenous artillery systems such as Dhanush & Bharat-52. Companies like Pipavav,Kalyani,Tata,Ashok Leyland,etc must be given preferences in defence deals & motivated.
Hi Prasun da, One of the Israelis claimed this durng DEFexpo that they have successfully tested Barak - 8 against the Brahmos with Indian assistance.
"After 2 tests we have a 90% hit to kill with 1 missile per aggressor and 99% with two. Barack 8 has a parabolic look down self guide mode that is unique tech
sea skimmers are very easy pray from this position."
A humble request to fellow bloggers:
Can we kindly stay focussed on the DEFEXPO 2014-centric contents of this thread, instead of veering off in tangents by succumbing to the nonsensical rants of the likes of PHIL that don't serve any meaningful purpose? Am pretty sure there are other productive & beneficial ways of taxing one's mind. VMT & with malice towards none. Will answer all queries later today, since this has been an incredibly busy week not only due to the expo, but also due to the seminars related to military-industrialisation issues/concerns.
Sir, waiting patiently for your replies to the various comments and pics of other exhibits and brochures. Pls upload some pics of various ew systems from elta, ew suites of Tejas mk1, ir jammers and dircm being offered for Mi17v5,v1,Rudra , Virjilius jammers . Also pls upload the various seekers being developed by Alpha electronics ,Data patterns for the various missilrs now under developement. And is there any developements with the super sukhoi upgrade project.
Is it true that Rafale,IAI, Drdo ,Bel are forming a Jv to develope a new series of ABM interceptors to suit our needs and meet the various threat requirements alongwith thr the associated C3 infrastructure and radars. So this will be a brand new Abm system besides Bmd phase 2 comprsing Pdv and Ad interceptors.
Dear Prasunda,
PLz also respond to our queries on the last post.
In addition,
1. The Kalyani gun Bharat 52 looks quite dated, almost an improvement over M46 130mm gun. Dhanush looks much modern and with better elevation and firing profile.
2. How difficult it is to improve the 45 cal to 52 cal gun? Just increasing the barrel size or a better metallurgy required? Because a 52 cal Dhanush would be beautiful, modern and deadly. And then it can be put on all sorts of platforms for MGS, SPH etc.
Please enlighten.
Prasun da,
Any information on MTOW and payload of NLCA Mk1 and LCA Mk2?
Prasun da,
I had this rather naive query regarding the external oil tanks on Arjun. Since in battle field they would be exposed to even small arms fire will the spilling oil from the tanks spread over the entire tank and burn the outside. Even if it may not percolate inside, it could be catastrophic to the various optoelectronic items which are exposed. Also even sharpnel exploding at distance can puncture exposed oil tank. Is it that the external oil tanks will be removed based on threat scenario and only used for reaching to near battle field.
Similarly i had another doubt regarding TWMP, why it has to be a standard fit for all tanks since combat engineers could have cleared all mines. Wont the use of mine plough tie down the tanks on a small area for a long time and make them vulnerable to enemy fire.
Sreenivas R
To LITTLEMASTER: The DATA Patterns-developed SAR seeker for BrahMos-1 is already shown above. That's the only seeker being developed by this company. It will replace the existing Granit JSC-supplied SGH seeker. ALPHA lost the competition to supply the BrahMos-1's seeker to DATA Patterns.
Will answer ALL other queries later tonight.
Sir, it is being stated by forum persons who have visited the DEFEXPO that the new BrahMos-M missile variant showcased there will be 3 meters shorter, 190mm smaller diameter, 500kg lesser weight, and a max speed of 3.5 Mach compared to 2.8 Mach of BrahMos Block-1.
Are these specs correct? Thanks in advance.
@ Prasun:
My apologies. I think I get carried away in my middle age when I see an overdose of rubbish.
Prasun sir, with reference to your first reply to PINTU at the beginning of this comments section -
The SR-SAM naval variant was shown in a chart sometime in 2010 itself, in LiveFist blog -
http://www.livefistdefence.com/2010/07/programme-update-indo-french-maitri-sr.html
VMT
To GESSLER: The BrahMos-M will be shorter of course because it won't require the booster motor-section that is now there on BrahMos-1's ship-launched & land-launched versions. But diameter remains the same & speed remains the same. Launch weight will be 1.5 tonnes. This is information confirmed to me by the OEM.
Cutaways of SR-SAM & LR-SAM were posted in other blogs in 2010 & were supplied by the DRDO. But the poster I've uploaded was displayed by BEL at its pavilion.
To HEBERIAN: O yaar no apologies reqd at all. Henceforth, what I will do is let such rubbish remain there for a few hours & then delete them. My only request to you all is don't get worked up & just ignore the rants. After all, why argue at all with an idiot? VMT & God bless.
To SREENIVAS R: The twin fuel tanks are meant for refuelling the MBT BEFORE it reaches the tactical battle area (TBA). Consequently, the fuel-tanks won’t be on-board once the battle gets underway. Typically, the Arjun will be parked between 40km & 100km away from the TBA before the orders to move ahead are issued. Once committed to battle, the Arjun’s turret will be reqd to traverse 360 degrees in azimuth & also be able to depress the 120mm barrel—something which will be possible only when the twin fuel tanks are already removed.
TWMPs & full-width mine-ploughs are the norm of the day when the demands of manoeuvre warfare place an enormous premium on the time factor, i.e. maintaining a high tempo of operations. Consequently, gone are the days when sappers would have to engage in demining for clearing minefields—a process that is not only labourious & time-consuming, but also dangerous. In addition, manually clearing minefields will easily give the game away & the element of surprise will be lost since the enemy will get a pretty good idea of the axis-of-advance. Therefore, for retaining the tactical initiative during manoeuvre warfare, speed is of the essence & hence the need to resort to increased mechanisation.
prasun da,
Is that shaped armor covering the IR countermeasure system (ALWACS right?) or is it just a simple metal covering, if its the former than what sort of armor are we looking at- composite?
Also, the ERA on the Mk.2 is Indian or Russian- what is it called?
Do you think that Kalyani will find any luck with the Bharat-52? If the MOD had any brains they would have afforded all the testing facilities required to get the product up to speed and then gotten TATA or Ashok-leyland to tag along for a truly Indian wheeled howitzer platform.
Prasun Da ,
(1) Why has the IAF chosen Rafael's Litening G4 pod over THALES Damocles pod ?
http://www.air-cosmos.com/defexpo-2014-uk/rafael-scores-pod-mega-deal.html?utm_content=bufferafd82&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
(2) Can you please elaborate why India & Israel decided to announce this deal for Anti-Missile System when Raksha Mantri has clearly stated that MoD does not have enough money ?
http://www.defensenews.com/article/20140206/DEFREG03/302060025/India-Israel-Build-Anti-Missile-System?utm_content=buffer155d4&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
VMT
Vikram
To BHASWAR: That is just a composites-built cover to protect the IR jammer against the vagaries of the weather. The laser warning is mounted above it. The cover was installed because it was frequently raining when the expo was underway. All ERA tiles are DRDO-developed & OFB-made. From both a design & engineering standpoint, the Bharat 52 is superior to the Dhanush. Kalyani Group, which has an industrial cooperation agreement with ELBIT Systems (which owns SOLTAM), has acquired the expertise from ELBIT for fabricating the 155mm/52-cal barrel (derived from that of the ATHOS-52). It now only needs to be field-tested & validated along with all the ELBIT-supplied vectronics. The APU & gun cradle of Bharat-52 is derived from those of the GHN-45, again another proven product. All in all, a far superior product compared to the Dhanush, six prototypes of which have been built with parts cannibalised from existing FH-77B, with the exception of the 45-cal barrel. In addition, citing the Sigma-30 RLG-INS (used for ballistic computing & land navigation) atop the barrel is downright ridiculous. Even the LW-155/M-777 UFH has its Selex-built RLG-INS cited well behind & certainly not atop the barrel. Just pray that the RM during one of his saintly mood-swings doesn’t blacklist the LW-155/M-777 just because it has an RLG-INS from SELEX (a Finmeccanica subsidiary)! The Kestrel is an excellently engineered 8 x 8 APC. Its RCWS is built in such a way that it does not protrude into the compartment below, thereby allowing 2 more soldiers to be accommodated inside.
To SANJEEV KUMAR: ADA wasn’t present at DEFEXPO 2014. Only HAL was. Therefore, no conclusive data on the ones you’ve asked for was available.
To RAJEEV CHATURVEDI: The Bharat-52 is definitely better engineered than the Dhanush—this much is beyond any doubt. An existing 45-ca 155mm barrel has to be lengthened by another 1 metres to become a 52-cal barrel. To do this, both metallurgical & ballistics computing expertise is required. Finally, given the choice between a homegrown 155mm/45-cal towed howitzer & a homegrown 155mm/52-cal towed howitzer, I will definitely opt for the latter with my eyes closed, period.
To LITTLEMASTER: No such JV is being formed or negotiated between DRDO, BEL & RAFAEL. Range of SR-SAM is 22km. P-16A FFGs don’t have enough space below-deck for accommodating the Barak-2. Have already explained several times before that if an end-user has particular preferences for a particular product, then it’s pointless to float global tenders. BMP-2K upgrade is not a deep upgrade, whereas the one proposed by Kalyanai Group is.
To BRADSHAW: Those were simulated interceptions similar to the ones that the DRDO had done in the past prior to actual test-firings of the AAD, i.e. an electronic target was generated & a simulated launch of the Barak-2 was initiated.
To RAKESH: Restrictions remain the same since the restrictions are formulated by the US State Dept, not the US Defense Dept or Pentagon. It is the State dept that maintains the ‘Negative List’. Only those products that are already in service with the US armed forces are offered through the FMS channel as a first option, i.e. the US Defense Dept offers such weapons on credit & the customer pays for it in instalments over as period of time. In addition, US military advisers are available for helping the customer with service-induction processes & also for in-country training. In case of a direct commercial sale, the customer pays the amount in successive tranches as determined by the OEM. Direct commercial sales are also preferred when the US-origin hardware isn’t in service with the US armed forces.
To ATULK SINGH: For the Arudhra, the instrumented detection range is 300km. The Ashwini is meant as replacement for the existing Rohini & therefore target detection/engagement parameters of the Ashwini will be the same as that of the Rohini.
To ARUP: DATA Patterns-developed SAR sensor will replace existing SGH SAR sensor from Granit JSC. Range & payload of BrahMos-M will be the same as those of BrahMos-1. The former, however, will weigh only 1.5 tonnes. No cluster munitions-based payloads for BrahMos-1/M. How can anyone order the SR-SAM when it has yet to be developed & field-tested? No CIWS for P-15A DDGs. Already stated that several times before. Only the SeaHake Mod 4.
To JAIDEV: 1) Possible, but needless since it will be cost-prohibitive. 2) Best option is always to order 3 more Scorpenes with Stirling Engine AIP & concurrently begin the construction of SSNs. 3) P-75I won’t proceed for all intents & purposes. Need of the hour is an SSN fleet. Without SSNs, all SSBNs of the IN will be sitting ducks for hostile hunter-killer SSNs.
To ABHINAB: That box-like structure houses the IR jammer.
To JOYDEEP GHOSH: 1) AW-101 is a dead deal for as long as the UPA-2 is in power. However, there are other competitions for which AgustaWestland is free to participate. That’s what the RM meant. 2) No one from India is asking for such ATGMs. 3) Dunno. Only Dr Avinash Chander can answer that. And so far he hasn’t said anything about it. Which means he’s not confident about this product. 5) And who will supply those Tu-160s? Doesn’t he know that sale of such weapons is banned under the bilateral treaties inked between the US & Russia? What a dork indeed!!! 6) BrahMos-M can be used for pinpoint strikes over land as well as for anti-ship strike. 7) Never said that. Maybe someone else told you that.
To KUNAL8888: 1) Developed in-house by DRDO. 2) Not the UPA-2 govt.
To GOOGLER: That’s what one gets when a RCWS developed for a naval platform gets installed on a MBT.
To NITIN: 1.5 tonnes.
To ZUBIN: VMT. 1) From an operational perspective, the Bharat-52 is definitely a far better option than the Dhanush. 2) What I can confirm is that the Indian Army never asked for the Arjun Catapult. Even the PSQR for such a contraption does not exist anywhere inside India, let alone the GSQR. 3) FICV project is almost non-existent now. No one at DEFEXPO 2014 even showcased their conceptual designs. 4) Yes. I totally agree. 5) Those procurements are already on-going.
To VIKRAM GUHA: Elementary. For reasons of commonality with existing in-service hardware. There’s no truth in that DEFENSE NEWS report. The only agreement inked by BEL during DEFEXPO 2014 was this:
Navratna Defence Public Sector Undertaking Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) has signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) with Sagem (Safran), France, to explore co-operation in the production and supply of navigational sensors, inertial navigational system and optronic masts to the Indian Navy for its various platforms under consideration for future induction. The MoU was signed by Mr P C Jain, Director (Marketing), BEL, and Mr Bruno Even, CEO Sagem, France. Mr S K Sharma, Chairman & Managing Director, BEL; Mr. Joel Berkoukchi COO, Avionics Division of Sagem, and Mr Chandrasekhar S, General Manager (Naval Systems), BEL, were also present during the MoU signing at the BEL stall at Defexpo 2014. The Indian Navy has ambitious plans of inducting ships and submarines into the service in the near future. Accordingly, the ship and submarine construction programme has been approved by the Government. Naval platforms have large-scale requirement of sensors such as SIGMA–40, Ring Laser Gyro, Optronic mast, Attack Periscope and Radar Mast for submarines. Sagem has the technology and expertise in the manufacture of these sensors. BEL is the leader in the manufacture and supply of defence electronics for the Indian Armed Forces. BEL and Sagem coming together to co-operate in the field of navigational sensors for ships and submarines will help in meeting the needs of the Indian Navy. The MoU will help in understanding and absorbing the critical technology adopted in these sensors for use in future induction platforms of the Navy.
The MoU will facilitate BEL and Sagem to work together for 24 months and if considered necessary, the same can be extended to a further period agreeable to both the companies.
so basically the shaped covering is just meant to provide environmental protection rather than any form of blast or ballistic protection?
But you've stated that even though Bharat-52 is the superior product Kalyani will find little luck with the MOD? Any chance that might change?
What happened to the Nirbhay test?
What of the BMD-2 interceptor tests?
Even the Leopard is a heavy tank and still it was equipped with AMAP, so why not the Arjun, specially since you've stated that their are Indian companies which have acquired the know-how to provide AMAP level solutions?
The comm. gear on the Kestrel is imported too? How much of the vehicle is actually Indian?
Has OFB given a name/designation to said ERA?
What did you make of the LMAV- no specs were given wrt weight for specific STANAG protection levels- all that was stated was that it weighs about 7.5 tons and has protection levels from STANAG level-1 upwards. Any specific info in this regard?
Is the DATA PATTERNS developed seeker an indigenous venture or are we looking at screw-driver giri or a joint venture- surely the critical components of the seeker itself have been procured off-shelf from a foreign OEM?
That’s right. Bharat-52’s chances are slim for as long as UPA-2 is in power. Maybe after another 100 days, things might change. Nirbhay will be test-fired again by this April. PDV’s maiden test-firing will follow. Development & evaluations of AMAP solutions would have delayed the service-induction. When vehicles like Kestrel are series-built on an industrial scale, total local content will increase to more than 80%. No specifications for ERA tiles. LMAVs were presented by TATA, Kalyani Group & Ashok Leyland. Their specs should be available on the respective websites of the OEMs. SAR sensor from DATA Patterns is an indigenous one.
Prasun Da,
Any info on the DRDO's Low Frequency Dunking Sonar, has it proven to be satisfactory? How shall it be put to use and on what platform?
http://i793.photobucket.com/albums/yy213/sumoberoi/IMG_2905_zps05350a0a.jpg
Apparently the device on the right side of the above pic is the Active towed decoy system/passive sensing array Maareech? Again, any info on it?
What of the DRDO multi cal, did you find it to be sufficient?
Could you provide some context to the medium range electro optical sensor and the stabilized optronic surveillance system?
VMT for the replies.
Will it be possible to integrate brahmos-M with Tejas MK2 ?
Prasun Da, is there any update about Prithvi-3, NLOS-BSM ?
Thanks in Advance.
To BHASWAR: The LFDS is still undergoing developmental trials & has not yet undergone any user-trials. The green-coloured & orange-coloured structures on either side of LFDS in that poster are moored & floating influence mines. Photo of Marreech’s active decoy was uploaded a long time ago in another thread in this blog. ARDE-developed MCW family is thankfully the continuing evolution of the earlier INSAS family & therefore promises to become a matured solution in the near future. Those optronic sensors you’ve highighted are meant for border/battlefield surveillance & can be mounted atop raisable masts when used for battlefield surveillance, & by aerostats when used for border surveillance.
To RAVI: No. It won’t be.
To PINTU: It is awaiting political clearance for service-induction.
Prasun sir,
Thank you so much for all the great pics of the defense expo!
1)Regarding the 155mm towed howitzer, i garner that there are two versions: a 155mm 45cal made by the ofb and the 155mm 52cal made by the Kalyani group. However i read on the net that there is/was also a DRDO 155mm 52cal howitzer in development.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRDO_155_mm_artillery_gun
What happened to this project? Was it shown at the defense expo or has it been delayed?
2) I read the DRDO MCIWS has an under barrel grenade launcher to fire air-burst shots. How does this method compare with standalone system such as XM25 CDTE or combined systems such as S&T Daewoo K11?
Also, now that DRDO has unveiled its multi caliber weapon, will the Indian Army chuck the user trials of foreign carbines such as Beretta ARX 160?
Dear Prasunda,
1. Is the range of Sea Hake HWT more than 140km? When subs can see only till 50 km in line of sight, will the sub have to pop up to track it? Is it better than Black Shark of WASS?
2. What is the power rating (MW) of Virginia Sub's nuke reactor and Gerald Ford's reactor?
3. Reports are coming up that DCNS is bringing its Barracuda for defexpo. Can they offer the design expertise to India? Will it not violate some international treaty on nukes, whichever?
4.Has India authorised the construction of SSNs? Will they have any feature of Akula class as Russian amb Kadakin mentions? Does India have licence to build them?
5. Russian shipyards are selling kilo-class for 250 million a pop. How come P75i is being considered a 12 billion dollar deal, meaning 2 billion a pop? That too a diesel submarine with no deep ocean capability, in a Indian shipyard?
6. How important is the AIP? Does it increase the efficiency of a submarine considerably on a combat level? Running on a battery at 5 knot is dangerous too, as a ASW ship can easily outrun it so what explains its need?
7. Why are Soryu class subs rated always as the best in the world. I read about the fact that leaf coil shape is better than cigar shape ones, but no explanation. How come all subs of USN and French Navy have cigar shape and are still considered the best?
8. Why did India refuse to buy MH-60R helos in a US FMS deal?
Thanks and best.
Prasun , Great pictures from DEFEXPO 2014.
Thanks for your efforts.
To VIDYUT: DRDO’s ATAGS 155mm/52-cal towed howitzer is still in the detailed design stage & has not yet entered the prototype development stage. In January 2013 I had uploaded the ATAGS’ drawing & specs in a thread devoted to DRDO exhibits at the ISC anniversary celebrations in Kolkata. All UBGLs can fire air-burst grenades. The challenge is not in developing such UBGLs, but lies in the development of air-burst grenade rounds. User-trials for MCWs of foreign origin are meant for only very few select infantry units, not for the entire armed forces. The ARDE-developed MCW family will be the one to replace the existing INSAS family, rest assured.
To AK: Not the SeaHake Mod4, but the Mod 4ER which is still under development. Black Shark is a good system, but the Franco-Italian industrial consortium that developed it is no longer operational. French companies making the torpedo’s batteries & fibre-optic guidance cable have opted out of WASS & for all intents & purposes the Black Shark can no longer be series-produced. 2) Such data is easily obtained by Googling. 3) DCNS showed the Barracuda SSN’s scale-model just as it had done so in 2012. There are no international treaties banning the export of such SSNs. 4) Not yet. 5) SSKs like Scorpene & Amur 1650 are a full generation ahead of Type 877EKM or Type 636M SSKs. 6) AIP is good only for those countries that don’t have access to nuclear propulsion technologies. Those that have in-service SSNs & SSBNs don’t operate any single SSK, with or without AIP. & Soryo-class SSKs are ocean-going & have deeper max diving depths than most other SSKs. Hull-shaping therefore does not give the Soryo any decisive edge. 8) MH-60R version of Seahawk has inferior on-board ASW systems, when compared to what can be installed on board the S-70B2 Seahawk. For instance, MH-60R comes with THALES-built FLASH low-frequency dunking sonar, but S-70B2 Seahawk comes with HELRAS ultra low-frequency dunking sonar.
To AUSTIN: VMT & God bless. Will upload scanned copies of various brochures later this week.
Hi Prasun,
VMT for the tour of def expo. one request to you, Please upload the images of indigenous products as much as possible. Also as u will be the only 1 Indian blog owner who would be attending the seminars and most importantly understanding what is being articulated there,kindly have short write up about them.Specially it would be really interesting about DRDO's roadmap about UAS system in future. Apart from the current Rustoms and AURA what else are in pipeline for future. Also HAL is supposed to work on its own UAS and engines for UAS. What is the progress on them?
Thanks a lot for your patience and efforts. Gud luck and have a nice day.
Thanks
Swarop
Prasun Da,
How you rate ARDE MCIWS. Will it be a potent and deadly weapon for IA.
I've read on Bharat-rakshak, the total weight of this weapon is 3 Kg - magazine empty and 3.6 K -magazine loaded.
Tu-142 in service with Indian Navy can be used as Strategic Bomber.
Siddharth
Dear Prasunda,
Recently, SAAB has been making a lot of news regarding its VSHORADS and SRSAM and its JV with Kalyani group.
Last I remember, India had selected Spyder-SR for VSHORADS and for SRSAM a 6BN USD agreement with MBDA was inked last year.
1. Then which VSHOARDS and SRSAM they are talking about?
2. Kalyani's Bharat 52 looks like an extension of a dated technology. A modernised version of old GHN-45 field gun (looks very similar to M-46 130mm too). So what is the reasoning behind your statement that its very advanced gun? Even by primary looks, it seems inferior to OFB Dhanush gun.
Please explain.
Thanks
Prasun DA,
Many thanks! I have been an avid reader of your blog. Ofcourse anonymously.
Do you see signs that DRDO is gaining competency and may be some recent reforms are showing result?
Thanks!
Dear Prasun K Sengupta,
I am following your blog for quite some time and I wish to say that this is simply superb. I enjoy your technical proficiency, way of explaining things & logical reasoning. My best wishes.
One thing I observe is that, our Defence R&D is working towards indigenizing the highly advanced technologies that are already available in the west.
But are we making efforts to initiate the basic R&D in any of the areas, at least in one area, to develop our own state-of-the-art technologies that at some point in future will stand high among the contemporaries and that the rest of the world will work towards mastering it.
To SPANKY’s BLOG/SWAROP: VMT. Your wishlist is exactly what was on my mind since the past 2 days & do rest assured that I will fulfil your wishes by the latter half of this week. This is inclusive of the interesting seminars & interactions I had with the top hierarchy of DRDO scientists & technocrats.
To SIDDHARTH: MCIWS from DRDO/ARDE will be a fully mature & reliable product when its R & D cycle is completed, do rest assured. Will upload their brochures in the latter half of this week.
To JAIDEV: 1) They’re talking about the BAMSE. 2) M-46 & Bharat-52 are generations apart. Even the M-46 was shown by Kalyani Group & you will get a good idea of the generational differences only after you’ve seen them. Lastly, when comparing the Bharat-52 with Dhanush, the former is 52-cal while the latter is 45-cal. Secondly, for towed howitzers, simplicity is the key to sustained reliability & serviceability. Complexity can be introduced on MGS or tracked SPHs. The Dhanush has arrived 15 years too late. Had it been developed & introduced into service 14 years ago, then it would have had some viable utility. Today, if I were to choose between a 45-cal & 52-cal towed 155mm howitzer, I will on any given day opt for the 52-cal solution.
To Anon@6.24PM: Of course, no doubt about that. You will get to know much more about all this in a following thread later this week, with illustrations of course to drive home my point.
To MATHURAN: VMT & the very same to you as well. Of course, no doubt about that. You will get to know much more about all this in a following thread later this week, with illustrations of course to drive home my point, kindly rest assured.
Sir,
VMT on a very good post,quite a lot that i learnt from the photos as well as the comments.
1)What are the export prospects of Indian OPVs also what is the status of GRSE's ships for Mauritius?
2)good to see some private sector firms building arty guns but equally tragic that babudom wont let them go far.
3)What are your impressions regarding the barracuda SSN also, will HSL be able to absorb the technology or will any other shipyard build them?
I was hoping that the following good news would be splashed & shared with all Indian citizens by the MoD via the national broadcast TV channels. But it looks like the PR managers of the MoD & their corps of ‘desi’ journalists are either fast asleep or could not care less. So kindly allow me to share this brilliant feat with you all:
48 hours ago the first two MiG-29KUBs of the IN made the IN’s first two successful deck landings on INS Vikramaditya. Accomplishment of this feat were preceded by a series of at least three simulated deck landings (mirror-assisted deck landings or MADLs). This is no mean feat since the INS Vikramaditya has three arrester cables (US Navy aircraft carriers have four). If the tail-hook latches on to the first cable, it is called an ‘early hook’. If the tail-hook latches on to the second wire, then it is the ‘perfect hook’. If the third wire catches the tail-hook, it is called the ‘green hook’. With the accomplishment of this feat (first deck-landings with IN’s MiG-29K/KUB-qualified pilots), the IN’s Naval Aviation Arm is the first in the world to be trained for carrier deck-landings/takeoffs by the US Navy (on T-45 Goshawks) & acquire the proficiency to operate carrier-based MRCAs of Russian origin.
Sometime next month, PM Dr MMS will spend a day at sea on board INS Vikramaditya to witness carrier-based aviation operations. This follows a long tradition of the IN, under which Jawaharlal Nehru was there to witness such operations after the arrival of INS Vikrant, while Rajiv Gandhi was there to witness such operations after the arrival of INS Viraat. Let us therefore all rejoice & wish the IN ‘smooth sailing in calm waters’. Shan No Varun!
To VIKRANT: VMT. 1) Prospects are very good within the IOR. GSL has already bagged an order for building a 105-metre NOPV for the Sri Lanka Navy. GSL has also refurbished the SLNS Sayura & this vessel will next be armed with China-supplied C-802A ASCMs & FM-90N air-defence missiles. The GRSE-built OPV for Mauritius is now undergoing fitting-out. 3) No, HSL won’t be able to. But L & T’s Kattupalli shipyard will be able to.
Prasun, great blog and excellent coverage of the expo. I felt proud at the in country expected introduction of various systems.
We need to ban defence imports of either finished or ckd products for at least two decades and actively involve the private sector. We might lose out in the short term, but would be definitely well placed in the longer run.
By the way, the catastrophic explosion on board the INS Sindhurakshak was caused by some kind of accidental detonation of a Novator 3M54E Klub-S ASCM. This is what has been reportedly established by the IN's Board of Inquiry-led forensic analysis. None of the torpedoes exploded. It must be borne in mind that the Klub-S ASCMs were acquired in the previous decade & are fast approaching the expiry dates of their technical service-lives & require relifing.
To ATUL: In an era of globalisation, banning imports of weapon systems or their sub-systems/components won't be advisable. Instead, focus should be laid on joint development on risk-sharing basis, like the BrahMos JV & the Barak-2 project. Private-sector should be bestowed with a level playing field whenever competitive bidding is called for. The MoD's Dept of Defence Production & Supplies should morphe into a Dept of Defence Industrialisation. Finally, the prevailing mantra of 'import substitution' should be replaced by 'export promotion'.
Thank you, Prasun :)Have a good evening !
Dear Prasun,
Once you made a promise to write the 2nd of of article "where ROK go right and India went wrong"; but you didn't post the concluding part.
Pa'ji if u need help, why don't you outsource the documentation job to some service provider??? It is helpful to you. Otherwise it will increase my anxiety and blood pressure. Plz. consider
To HEBERIAN: VMT & always most welcome.
To SOUBHAGYA: All my comments & observations related to that thread provide ample fodder that, if consolidated into one unitary narrative, could easily constitute a new thread. It's all there till now & no one has deleted them. You will thus have to connect the dots, which I'm sure you can do.
Sir,i would like to ask you a few questions about the arjun mk2.
what exactly is the indian army's problem with this mbt? Its weight is comparable to other western mbts
Then why is it said that its too heavy? can it be compared to the t90 or t72 which are medium battle tanks?
Why cant it be deployed in kutch and rajasthan?can it be airlifted by the c17?shouldnt it idealy be ordered in larger numbers?
Have just uploaded more photos.
To JAY BHANUSHALI: The IA has absolutely no problem with the Arjun family of MBTs. In fact, it is extremely happy with the performance of this MBT family. Only after the IA's MGO Branch concludes the AUCERT process will Army HQ be able to finalise the Arjun MBT family's projected consolidated fleet strength. Eventually, the fleet will number some 600 units at the very minimum, rest assured. The AUCERT process is extremely critical because the conclusions reached after this process will give the IA the reqd firm data for establishing the Arjun's MRO workshops & spares provisioning warehouses (at least three of each) along India's northern half, establishment of three MBT Integrated Crew Training Simulator centres, plus procurement of up to 12 containerised, road-mobile gunnery simulators. Concurrently, up to 40 Arjun BLTs will be procured along with a similar number of Arjun ARVs.
Thanx for the exotic presentation.
Can INS Sindhurakshak be repaired and reuse again ?
sir ,
i have recently gone through Gen. VK Singh's autobiography..
i have some questions (i don't really know how to put them)..
hope you will answer..
1) he puts the entire blame on babudom for equipment shortage , officer shortage etc
is he right..at several occasions he points to defence secretary saying "we'll look into it"..& that nothing happens after it..
is this really the case..is the indian bureacracy so laid back , indifferent ,??
can the people in PMO really be leaky ? if yes then why ??
2) can there really be a line of sucession in the army?
3) what are your views on the book..specially the last section(ch 12 - COAS)..if you could share your insights on it..at several occasions the general doesn't explain anything in detail..only saying the other party on made certain "noises" & "hemmed and hawed"..
is the gen. singularly right all throughout ??
4) do you really think the 3 corps commander at the time was really at fault..for the botched up op..for his int. chief upto mischieves(also was he really into mischieves..?)
how can/why was the eastern army commander post kept vacant for any particular individual..when several others could have been appointed..does it mean the 3 corps commander was hand in gloves with the eastern army commander..& was it already decided that the eastern army commander will clear the way for him once he took over the COAS job ?
i must say sir , the last section of the book was really disheartening , demoralising..
5) do u see things improving ??
hope you ans sir.
Here's some background information on the JV between ELBIT Systems & Kalyani Group/Bharat Forge:
February 7, 2013:Bharat Forge Ltd, the flagship company of the Kalyani Group, and Elbit Systems Land and C4I Ltd, a wholly owned subsidiary of Elbit Systems Ltd, today announced a strategic co-operation in India under which a new Joint Venture Company (JVC) will be established, to address the Indian Ministry of Defence and other potential Indian government customers’ requirements for the most advanced artillery and mortars systems solutions.
The JVC will offer solutions in the Artillery Guns & Mortars segment based on Elbit Systems’ cutting edge technologically advanced products operationally used worldwide, such as the ATHOS 155/52 Towed Gun System, the ATMOS 155/52 Mounted Gun System and the upgraded 130 mm M46 Gun to a 155/45 Gun (KARAN). The JVC will also role out a range of futuristic products like the Advanced Indian Gun System. The JVC will bring together Elbit Systems’ cutting edge technology and system integration capabilities and Bharat Forge’s advanced capabilities in the areas of design, engineering, manufacturing, testing and validation.
“The Strategic Cooperation between Elbit Systems and Bharat Forge, and specifically the JVC, will address Indian defence requirements with operationally proven systems from Elbit Systems that have been customized and adapted for Indian conditions and manufactured at the World class manufacturing facility for end-to–end solutions for artillery systems and armored vehicles upgrades established by Bharat Forge recently in India,” said Mr. Baba Kalyani, Chairman and Managing Director of Bharat Forge Ltd. Bezhalel (Butzi) Machlis, Elbit Systems’ Executive Vice President–President and CEO Designee, and formerly General Manager of Elbit Systems Land and C4I Division, noted: “We are proud to combine Bharat Forge’s systems integration and manufacturing expertise with Elbit Systems’ proven technology. We believe that offering innovative solutions, based on our combined vast operational experience and technological capabilities will position the JVC as a leading supplier to the Indian Ministry of Defence and other potential Indian government customers".
Bharat Forge Ltd (BFL) is the flagship company of the USD 2.5 billion Kalyani Group and a global provider of high performance, innovative, safety & critical components and solutions to various industrial sectors including Automotive, Oil & Gas, Aerospace and Rail & Marine. BFL today has the largest repository of metallurgical knowledge in the region and offers complete end to end capability from concept to testing and validation to marquee global OEM’s. At the cusp of a breakout growth & transformation into an engineering conglomerate through its aggressive foray in capital goods and infrastructure sectors, BFL is committed to proactively expedite India’s transformation into a global economic powerhouse.
To Mr.RA 13: VMT. More will follow. What you’ve seen so far is the just the first wave of the ‘tsunami’ (LoLzz!)
To RAVI: Nope. It is a permanent writeoff.
To PRATEEK: Allright, kindly allow me to explain matters in laymen’s terms. 1) In India’s parliamentary system of democracy, according to the Govt of India’s ‘Rules of Business Transactions’, policy formulation & enacting of legislation is the job of elected officials only. The Civil Service is responsible for only implementing such legislations that are gazetted into law by elected parliamentarians. Consequently, the ‘Babus’ cannot be held guilty of mismanagement or negligence. The buck stops squarely on the doorstep of the RM (Defence Minister) for it is he/she who takes the final call on all such matters. Without authorisation from the Cabinet Committee on Security, the RM cannot enact administrative reforms within the MoD & without such reforms, the ‘Babus’ cannot implement the reforms. It is a great fallacy to assume that the ‘Babus’ are the sources of all evil or that they’re dumb or buffoons. They’re some of the country’s best & brightest human resources & are all highly educated. But they cannot be expected to produce their very best if they’re made to function with their hands tied behind their backs. 2) There are always lines of succession in all 3 armed services that are NOT solely determined by human beings, but by the dates of birth of all officers, which determine the seniority of an officer. Concurrently, the annual confidential reports (ACR) of these officers determine how slowly or quickly they can climb the promotion ladder. So, ultimately, there’s always a determined line of succession especially after any officer attains a 1-star rank. 3) There are two ways of scripting one’s memoirs: either a single book or a series of books. If it is the latter, then it is possible to contextualise all issues/developments in greater detail, like what Dr Henry Kissinger or Lord Winston Churchill had done. 4) One cannot deliver a decisive verdict unless one hears both sides of the story. 5) Of course. Nothing stays constant forever. Therefore, far better to become a pessimistic optimist like I like to describe myself as.
By the way, after seeing & reading everything in this thread so far, does anyone still reckon that DEFEXPO 2014 was 'lacklustre' as portrayed by the corps of Delhi-based 'desi' journalists???
Pakistan Aeronautical Complex signed contract for 20 Super Mashaaks for US$92M with IraqiAF. PAF will also train IraqiAF pilots, contract signed for US$70M. Could have JF-17 going there pretty soon.
Prasun
the recent news "www.business-standard.com/article/current-affairs/iaf-to-buy-14-tejas-squadrons-114021001237_1.html " indicates IAF may induct 300+ Tejas fighters eventually, also it states Mig-27 as one of the a/c being replaced, confirmation that Tejas will be configured for CAS or it is too premature to make such an assumption? ur thoughts?
The DEFXPO2014 was anything but lackluster it clearly defined some of the paths/routes Indian defense Dev fraternity is taking or will take.
It also shows slowly but steadily pressure is building on GoI to allow more & more involvement of pvt sector in defence sector if projects like Kestrel APC are to go by.
Also the Kestrel project highlights the true role of DRDO as a R&D house. ur thoughts?
VMT for the reply sir.
Prasun sir,
Thanks for the reply.
No sir, from what can be seen the current Defense expo was terrific! It finally gives us hope of an expedited modernization of the armed forces.
1) Also sir, if the Indian Army goes for the Kalyani Bharat 52 and places orders for it in bulk, what will happen to the DRDO 52cal? Doesn't it lead to unnecessary duplicity, when the same equipment is being developed by different manufacturers in different time frames?
2) Now that there is a high possibility of Private companies undertaking defense R&D, what happens when the said company and DRDO are developing the same product?
For eg, if a company does R&D and develops product "A". The DRDO also does R&D on the same product and develops a more advanced version of product "A" but does this two years after the private company. In such a scenario which product will get selected?
Thanks
Vidyut
Prasun,
I think in sheer technological content and indigenous capability showcased here along with JVs and other tie ups, this defexpo probably outranks all the previous combined, in fact if any thing to go by, it showcased the country's mature technological and industrial base and of course it definitely was the coming out party for the DRDO. I think for them there is no looking back from here. I clearly see 70 to 80 % indigenisation by 2030.
..waiting for the brochures whenever you have time! Thanx!
PrasunDa ,
(1) Did you notice the presence of Gazprom Bank ( if I remember correctly the bank's name) at the Russian Pavilion during DefExpo ? This came as a surprise to me . Maybe they intend to finance deals between India & Russia .
(2) In your opinion will a new Govt be able to reduce the time required between issue of an RFP and the final signing of the contract ? To my mind India is unique in this area where it take 6 10 years for a contract to be signed .
(3) Why are organizations like CII, FICCI etc unable to effectively lobby for industries in India ? Is it because some major Indian companies have established a monopoly over these organizations
Thanks,
Vikram
Prasunda,
1. In the LPH contract, why is HMS Ocean class not even present? It has a wider deck, better helo capacity and a proven design, in comparison to others. So why its not even in contention? And what is the status of that competition?
2. Has there been any update on AVRO replacement program? You had mentioned once that Lockheed Martin and Tata are eager to produce C-130J super hercules in India in that program. The issue is when that option is on table, why was St Anty in hurry to award 6XC-130J contract last year, which fortunately has not been signed yet?
3. Has there been any attempt or proposal to reorganize OFB factories into major categories, for example, gun and rifle maker, ammo maker, heavy vehicle maker, tools, clothing and ancillaries makers etc. Has there been any attempt to corporatise them as per their specialisation? IF no, then why are they being allowed to fritter away resources by making everything? Even Chinese are smarter in this regard!
4. What is the response of MoD/IA on Kalyani's gun, Tata's gun and OFB's gun?
Thanks
http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/navy-asked-to-submit-report-over-ins-vikramaditya-glitches/article1-1182940.aspx
Request you to shed light on the incident pertaining to boiler breakdown mentioned in the article.
Prasunda,
Can you plz respond to some fundamental questions:
1. How large and strong is the import lobby in India? How much clout they have and how far the corruption goes? Which countries are exceptionally master in this tradecraft?
2. Is IA and IAF actually very pro-import and hate Indian products? How does it benefit them? A general once mentioned that GSQRs are written such strictly that no Indian product matches it. Is it true or its more than meets the eye?
3. What is a better way to acquire weapons? How can one cut the time between RFI, RFP, Trials, CNC and final conclusion of contract?
4. Why do weapon trials in India take so long? There are four seasons available in India all year. So why can't MoD finish trials in couple of months?
Thanks and sorry if the questions are very basic.
Dear Prasun,
Thank you for fantastic coverage of DEFEXPO.
How will you compare between Tejas-1 and Upgraded Mirage-2000?
Dear Prasun,
recently I came to know that the Chinese J-10C is so advanced that it will otdate the European and American planes. Then how the Tejas Mk. 1 and Tejas Mk. 2 will fare against it??? Plz explain.
To RAW13: Procurement of Super Mushaaks does not automatically translate into an assured procurement of fixed-wing combat aircraft. At most, such aircraft will be used for training the Iraqi AF’s future fixed-wing pilots that are meant to fly aircraft like the Tucano or PC-7 Mk2. It takes at least a decade for an air force like the Iraqi AF to raise a cadre of aircrew capable of converting to MRCAs. Next, the Iraqi AF will be procuring basic turboprop trainers, followed by primary/intermediate jet trainers & then AJTs. Only after this will a MRCA procurement follow a decade later.
To SACHIN SATHE: It is still premature to speculate about the eventual fleet strength of the Tejas Mks1/2 fleet. Obviously, the bulk of the fleet will comprise tejas Mk2s. As for CAS, I had already stated way before that Tejas Mk1 MRCA can easily be optimised for CAS roles when using lightweight PGMs. India’s military-industrial capacities in the private-sector can definitely take quantum leaps but ONLY IF the long-overdue administrative reforms are undertaken by the MoD & the CCNS. Kestrel APC is an ideal armoured battle-taxi & it should be used as one, instead of trying to convert it into an ICV. Choice of javelin ATGMs mounted on the RCWS is another ideal choice.
To VIDYUT: 1) The answer is simple & elementary: adopt the Bharat-52 package & NOT the Dhanush. 2) Again elementary: just avoid such needless duplication. For instance, instead of developing the ATAGS, the DRDO should focus on developing along with BAE Systems a 155mm/52-cal naval main gun. That will be a far better option instead of importing 127mm naval guns from BAE Systems.
To VIKRAM GUHA: 1) Not for financing deals, but serving as an EXIM bank for providing credit for JVs like BrahMos Aerospace. 2) Everything’s possible, provided the necessary administrative reforms are carried out within the MoD. 3) It cannot be done for as long as the administrative reforms are not carried out. The Secretary for Defence Production & Supplies presently is a Board member in all DPSUs & therefore he cannot be expected to lobby in favour of the private sector, since that will tantamount to conflict of interest. Only when this Secretary becomes the Secretary for Defence Industrialisation will a level playing field emerge.
To KRIS: 1) Only BAE Systems answer that. 2) No updates so far. But the writing on the wall is that the C-130J will eventually be ordered. 3) Nothing of that sort is happening. 4) Bharat-52 & Caesar have evinced keen interest from the IA. OFB’s Dhanush isn’t exactly a OFB-made howitzer as yet. All the six prototypes were upgunned versions of existing FH-77Bs. So far, OFB has only fabricated the 155mm/45-cal barrel, nothing else. Therefore, in terms of quantum of indigenisation from raw material stage, Bharat-52 is leagues ahead of the Dhanush.
To RAKESH: 1) There’s no such thing as an import lobby. It’s all about securing the best available option, the source doesn’t matter. 2) Not at all. If that were the case, then the IA would never even have bothered to request the CVRDE to further improve the Arjun Mk1 & the IAF would never have accepted licence-built Su-30MKMIs. 3) Undertake the long-overdue administrative reforms within the MoD. For instance, for a specific project, just raise a single, unitary project file, instead of raising a ‘Services File’ & a ‘Ministry File”. And secondly, have the civil servant & the uniformed officer dealing with this project located under the same roof & sitting side-by-side so that none of them have any secrets to hide & both have equal access to information within the unitary Project File. Then automatically, civil-military animosities will disappear & teamwork will prevail, thereby ensuring speedy decision-making. 4) Even a year-long field evaluation period is acceptable, since the delays never occur there. Delays always occur when files have to be shuffled between various involved agencies/depts.—about 16 in all.
To SNTATA: Upgraded Mirage 2000UPG is a MMRCA, while Tejas Mk1 is MRCA. Furthermore, the former has a more advanced defensive aids suite. Those are the only differences worth highlighting.
To SOUBHAGYA: Again, J-10C is a MMRCA, whereas Tejas is a MRCA. That’s the only difference.
To FINANCEBLOGGER: These are all minor glitches always encountered during a historic non-stop ferry journey. After all, the INS Vikramaditya sailed into INS Kadamba on its own power, thereby proving that the vessel's crew complement & its 167 Russian warranty/product-support technical personnel always had matters under control. But yes, incidents of IN personnel sharing details/photos of the ferry voyage on social-media is indeed worrisome & these need to be clamped down upon through strict internal disciplinary action.
Prasun,
P-15A should have been equipped with RAN-40L from the outset. Instead from the picture, the RAN-40L radar chosen for P-71A has been dropped for older RAWL radar? Phew!
sir ,
which units in the IA will use kestrel(or other APCs)..?
MECH INF REGT & Guards brigade is already equipped with bmp1/2 ifv..
will these apcs be used by regular infantry? if yes than how many apcs will be given to each unit ??
2) does IA have any plans to raise para mech/armrd units??
Prasunda,
What is the difference between Maareech and Kavach Torpedo decoy systems.
Sreenivas R
Thanks for posting fabulous snaps of def.expo 14 sir plz post snaps of rustom 2 if taken by u. And plzz share it's details and specs. Sorry for asking of the topic qs. http://www.janes.com/article/30056/satellite-imagery-reveals-mystery-supergun-in-chinese-desert
sir what in ur opinion is this a rail gun or any type of advanced canon and what do think that can chinese match or get close to the development made by United states in this tech. Right now.
Any indian advancments in this technology.
Thanks in advance !!!!
Prasun sir, some questions for you:
1) Will the MCIWS defeintly enter iA service? And if so when?
b) what will the MCIWS delivered to the regular grunts come with? We saw them being displayed with a Raptor RDS and pistol grip at DEFEXPO- will this configuration be delivered to ever IA soldier?
2) What will come of the AW-101 deal now? 3 units are in India right now doing nothing of any use to the nation and AW is in the mix for many other Indian defence contracts- it's a complete mess, what will happen?
3) You had said that a foreign RCSW would be selected for the ARJUN MK.2, what became of these plans? That OFB NAVAL RCWS looks ABSURD on that tank.
4) when will the foreign multi-cal rifles be delivered and which units will be equipped with them?
5) what is going on with the S-70B/NMRH deal? Whilst a lot has been said for the Ah-64 and CH-47 deals for the IAF, almost NOTHING has been said on the s-70b and considering the age of the Sea Kings the need for their replacement is a MUST. When will a deal emerge?
Prasun,
Do you see the KESTRAL APC from TATA being inducted into service? It seems to be a very good platform but then the iA was also looking for a tracked APC so where would the IA go then?
Sir how did I stood in front of a mirror at the Defexpo 2014 and saw Subir?
Dear Prasunda,
1. Tata Kestrel looks good but it doesn't have a V-hull design. Will it be further modified? Will it be inducted? What does IA thinks about it?
2. S-70B helos are being phased out of Australia and they are inducting MH-60R helos on FMS. They why did we reject MH-60R and looking for S-70B2?
3.How does licence production work? When HAL produces Su-30MKI or AJT Hawk, how much licence fee it has to give back? IS it in percentage or fixed rate? How does it work out in Ak-630 gun, MILAN 2T missiles etc?
Thanks
Hi Prasun
why on earth are we going in for the older zsu-23-4 from ukraine .I believe it was good during its time in the arab israeli war, but it is too short ranged compared to the more effective oerlikon 35 mm systems that fire ahead rounds .I wonder what happened to the israeli upgrade with a small phased array radar and electro optics as well.?
In My opinion it will be better to go in for the oerlikon guns and mount it on trucks as shown in a tata picture.
Prasunda,
Lately, I have seen the nature of debates shifting in Pakistan especially on their TV. Experts like Najam Sethi, Muneef, ex-Air Force people, a new group of rising community of mature thinkers, all are discussing issues of Pakistan with lot of maturity and confidence. Given the nature of Pak politics and dominance of Pak military and terrorists/fundas, the nature of these media debates are completely against stereo-typical Pakistan. They are not hesitant in criticising anyone and seem quite forceful in their arguments. Their approach of thinking is also quite realistic.
Does it mean that in general, Pakistanis have started becoming or rather aspiring to become a mature and better democracy? Or at-least their media is?
What is your opinion?
BTW in general, I have seen many Pak experts giving arguments that India is out there to get them. India wants to gobble Pakistan and other similar blah blah.
I couldn't suppress my laugh while being astonished. Why the hell would India like to have another 180 million of trouble (mostly terrorists/fundas) in our lands? Once you agree to taking Pak in, tomorrow Bangladeshis would start knocking.
NO WAY, India can even think of grabbing Pakistan/Bangaldesh in future, NO WAY. If you asked we young generation of Indians, we would build an Israeli concrete wall on border so that any idea of them coming this side not even come up in future.
I may have to endup creating my "raw13" handle. Why do others use that...makes no sense to me, afterall Prasun allows you to post, under whatever id you want. Its a chance to show your individuality.
at the moment i have started reading the book: "The Hindus: An Alternative History" By Wendy Doniger.
There is a beautiful quote by an indian who is admired by many pakistanis: " Even if I am killed, I will not give up repeating the names of Rama and
Rahim, which mean to me the same god. With these names on my lips, I will die cheerfully.
Mahatma Gandhi, 1947 "
Mr.Prasun
Dont tell me such a big nation with 1.3billion brains unable to come with own warmachines???
Always rslying on smaller countries like Britain, Japan, Israel & even S.Korea??? Where is India heading??? Such a disappoinment
@Prasunda
Your views on this?
http://www.rediff.com/news/report/are-trinamool-mps-harbouring-bangladeshi-terrorists-in-wb/20140212.htm
To SHAW: I agree.
To PRATEEK: Those formations equipped with F-INSAS (as will the mechanized infantry formations) will be the ones to get 8 x 8 APCs like the Kestrel. Nos earmarked for each formation have not yet been finalised. The Kestrel on paper appears to be far better than the LAC-25/Piranha/Stryker family of 8 x 8s. There’s no need for para armoured/mechanised units. After all,. Where are they likely to be used & against whom? Such vehicles are easily transportable by transports like the C-17A & IL-76MDs & therefore don’t need to be air-dropped. Even the PLAAF’s 15th Airborne Corps does not boast of such capabilities.
To SREENIVAS R: Marreech is used for decoying torpedoes. Kavach is used for dispensing chaff to confuse the terminal seekers of inbound anti-ship cruise missiles.
To SHAH: Pics of Rustom-2 were taken but since LIVEFIST has uploaded them, I decided not to. That’s an experimental electromagnetic rail-gun being tested-out by the Chinese. It should not come as a surprise at all since China since the late 1970s has always used the US as its benchmark in almost all spheres of military-industrial activity. No such R & D activity has been initiated by the DRDO so far.
To GOOGLER: 1) Of course it will in the latter half of this decade. I’m 1,000% certain. B) That’s the plan. 2) The procurement process can always be re-started by someone who is a leader who thinks logically & is a discerning individual. 3) A lightweight RCWS is being developed in-house by ARDE, that’s what I was told. 4) The first Mechanised Infantry Brigade that adopts F-INSAS will be equipped with such weapons. 5) It will emerge by this October.
To SEARCHER: The MoD’s DPP rules dictate that competitive bids will have to be called for the 8 x 8 APC competition. The Kestrel will be only one of the several; contenders from France, the US, Austria, Italy, Switzerland, Ukraine, Russia, Romania, and Turkey.
To VJ: 1) It has only been unveilled as a static display. Proof of the pudding always lies in its eating. Therefore, the Kestrel’s true capabilities will become known only after it has been subjected to field trials. 2) Australia has had a long history of making spectacularly disastrous procurement decisions. Just look at what happened with the Kaman Super Seasprite. 3) The licence fee is part of the overall contract value & is a tiny sum. Bulk of the costs concern the setting up of industrial facilities in-country for producing various components, sub-systems, & airframe structures. The same goes for all licence-built products.
Critising someone or something does not translate into functional democracy. Pakistan still has a very long way to go before becoming a functional democracy because its political classes themselves are intellectually stunted & don’t have a national perspective on most matters of importance.
To RAD: The upgraded ZSU-23-4 Schilkas are still extremely potent weapons for battlefield air-defence, where low-flying aircraft & attack helicopters have to be engaged. Base air-defence is a totally different ballgame, since aircraft attacking a base don’t engage in low-level flights.
To RAJARUBAN CHETTIAR RAJINDRAM: Of course she is capable. But, if an army of lions is commanded & led by a donkey, then the result will always be disastrous. On the other hand, if an army of donkeys is led by a lion, only then can spectacular results be achieved. Get my drift?
To ABS: This is nothing new & it was going on even during the reign of the Left Front. So why is the Left Front now crying foul???
Mr.Prasun,
My question is not whether can India win a war with China or any nations. The question is India's money is flowing out of the country by purchasing foreign weapons when she can invest the same amount of money to research on its own. Look at China, Japan, S.Korea for instance, their R&D is more advanced in every sense and their defence output is higher than their imports. How could India dream of being a world superpower when she still relies on foreign imports. Being a superpower starts from self-reliance & able to influence countries around her
To RAJARUBAN CHETTIAR RAJINDRAM: With the exception of China, all the other countries you’ve mentioned are all importing their principal weapon systems & platforms from the US & Europe. Therefore, India is no exception. But I agree with you in terms of the need to increase by a moderate quantum the amount of funds to be spent on military R & D, the dire need to mentor innovations & creativity & empower India’s SMEs to scale much greater heights.
Thanks sir. Sometimes looking at India which once a worldpower herself lagging behind other countries now is quite saddening. As an Bharat descandant, we all should feel a great responsibility on this. Thanks for sharing sir.
@raw13,
what a split personality you have. When @Messenger asked you why raw13 is not protesting while his handle is being used by others, you made use of the opportunity. You shoot two birds with one shot.
First you showed your true colors by wanting to separate India into smaller chunks and brilliantly backed up by using @RAW13 handle and there by if anyone questions you, you wanted to backup by saying you usually use @raw13 handle not @RAW13 handle.
Again as @Messenger insisted you said your handle is being abused.
what a creativity??
This is similar to the idea of collecting some one else blood, skin and hair samples and spill/leave them at the site of crime scene, so as to implicate the innocents.
But technology never lie. Your IP logs show you are one and the same.
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