It was in the late 1980s that
the DRDO’s Vizag-based Naval Science and Technological Laboratory (NSTL)
initiated R & D work on developing three types of torpedoes: a lightweight
torpedo, a heavyweight electric torpedo, and a heavyweight thermal torpedo.
The
first, known as Torpedo Advanced Light (TAL), was meant to be a 220kg torpedo
capable of being launched from warships and helicopters, have a top speed of 33
Knots in both deep and shallow waters, incorporate a self-homing guidance
system, and was to be powered by electric batteries which would last for six
minutes. It was only in 1998 that the TAL’s technical trials began, while
user-trials commenced only by 2007. The IN began service-inducting the
BDL-built TALs in 2011.
It was on December 24, 2008
that the NSTL had stated that the ‘Varunastra’ heavyweight electric torpedo
being developed by it will be ready for service-entry by 2009. The Varunastra,
weighing 1.5 tonnes, having a length of 7.6 metres and a 40km-range, was meant
to be launched from shipborne twin-tube launchers already developed
indigenously by Larsen & Toubro. However, it was only on September 26, 2013
that the NSTL stated that it had completed the creation of state-of-the-art
facilities required for the design, testing and prototype production of
heavyweight torpedoes like the Varunastra, meaning user-trials of the
Varunastra were then still two years away. The initial order for 63 Varunastras will be fulfilled by Bharat Dynamics Ltd.
The NSTL-developed Shakti
thermal torpedo runs on monopropellant fuel, which can burn without oxygen and
so is useful in underwater operations. Under development since 1996, the NSTL
took nearly seven years to develop the engine and fuel for Shakti. The
monopropellant fuel can generate 400kW of power and enable the Shakti to move
at faster speeds (almost double that of an electric torpedo) and at depths of
up to 600 metres. Technical trials of the Shakti are still underway in shallow
waters, and user-trials won’t commence till 2016 at best.
CMS-Torpedo/ASCM Compatibility Package Of Type 877EKM SSK
CMS-Torpedo/ASCM Compatibility Package Of Class 209/Type 1500 SSK
CMS-Torpedo/ASCM Compatibility Package Of CM-2000 Scorpene SSK
CMS-Torpedo Compatibility Package Of
S-2/Arihant SSBN
India-Origin ASW Upgrade Package Offered For Vietnam People’s Navy’s Three
Project 159 ASW Corvettes
145 comments:
Hi
When is development of thermal Torpedo expected for start testing and what way it will be different from varunshahtra ??
1) Will thermal torpedo will have higher range or higher speed than varunshashtra??
2) Will it use similar targeting system of varunshtra ?
3) Will it also be useful from launched from Submarine as well ??
4) Is varunshatra submarine launch capable, if not why not ??
To VISHAKH; Each of those questions was answered 2 threads ago. The posters above clearly explain from where Varunastra can & will be launched. As for IL-214 MRTA, yes, R & D work has been suspended pending the selection of a FADEC-equipped turbofan for the aircraft.
To RAD: No single sonar sensor whether operating in standalone or bistatic mode can track any submerged target 100km away. It is a physical impossibility. Detection isn't the same as real-time tracking. That's why autonomous RHIBs equipped with dunking sonars have to be employed in a distributed manner, one ahead of a flotilla & one behind, in order to create a sanitised zone. Those torpedoes with long-range aren't submarine-launched, but ship-launched & they're used primarily for coastal defence against hostile warships, not submarines. Nor does any naval base sit bang on the coastline. They are always located inland & entry & egress is through navigable channels, as is the case with Vizag. In addition, warship berthing positions in bases like INS Kadamba in Karwar have breakwater structures built with narrow openings & even these openings contain steel wire-meshes that are activated in wartime. Therefore, in naval warfare history to date, no submarine has succeeded in entering a naval base & attacking warships that are alongside berths.
Batteries for the Varunastra HWT were developed by HBL-Nife of India. As for CMS, didn't TATA Power SED already develop a CMS for the S-2/Arihant?
As for HELINA ATGM's IIR seeker, the design is that of RCI, but the IR-CCD sensor & its processing chips are all imported from France.
To SIDDHARTH: Yes, that's the procedure. Without successful user-evaluations, no weapon system can be accepted for service-induction.
To S SENTHIL KUMAR: Varunastra is ship-launched, not submarinbe-launched. The DCNS-assembled F-21 is submarine-launched The SeaHakw is both ship-launched & submarine-launched, which makes it an expensive system.
To SPYKAR: SAR-equipped ISAR solutions are already available for the IA's Heron & Searcher Mk.2 UAVs.
To RAT666: LCA Mk.1 SOP-18 contains no element of airframe stretching. The airframe dimensions will therefore be the same as that of the existing Tejas Mk.1. Why should Su-30MKIs start retiring in 2022? The airframe of Su-30MKI has far greater TTSL than that of the AL-31FP turbofan. All one needs therefore is to fit new-build turbofans & the Su-30MKI will be flyable for a good 35 years in total.
To YOUNGBENGAL: LoLz! Remember the perplexed look on PM NaMo’s face when he was being briefed at Pathankot AFS by the IA, IAF & NSG personnel? The question that he was always asking was: how can this happen when adrquate perimeter surveillance systems are already in place? Well, let me answer that for him & for you as well. It’s all about the tendency to avoid using common-sense. Let me illustrate this with a real-life example that, hopefully, will answer the PM’s question as well.
Sometime back, there was an incident in Delhi International Airport in which a man was seen by CCTV cameras as climbing down a perimeter wall. But what perplexed the CISF teams guarding the airport was how come the man was never seen climbing the wall in the first place. This question is still awaiting an answer. When the question was put to the provider of the perimeter surveillance network, Magal S3 of Israel (http://www.magal-s3.com/index.asp?siteLang=2), the company replied that it had provided the solution 100% in compliance with the laid-down specifications of the Airports Authority of India & GMR, the buyer & the CISF, the operator of this system. And the company was 100% right. So what went wrong? After all, this system, costing Rs.40 crore each, is now operationbal in both Delhi & Hyderabad.
When doing my own operations analysis of this incident, I discovered that prior to selecting the system, NO ONE from the AAI or CISF had ever done any technical analysis of the positional locations of the surveillance cameras, i.e. for deriving such positions, a mathematical algorithm exists that covers all apprioaches & also offers redundancy & overlapping coverage. Clearly, therefore, both the AAI & CISF had totally overlooked the reqmt for applying this algorithm. Furthermore, no third-party independent consultant was hired to do a peer review of the specifications that were co-drafted by the AAI & CISF.
To me, this is sacrilege, since it indicates deviations from SOPs whenever such procurement exercises take place. I therefore won’t be surprised at all if even the IAF or IA suffers from such hyman resourcxe deficiencies, i.e. the ability to apply common-sense. Matters are a far lot better with the IN, whose perimeter security systems are the best of all the three armed services.
I wonder why none of the other India-origin blogs has covered the Varunastra hand-over ceremony. Perhaps, it wasn't as glamourous as the rollout of the JAS-39 Gripen NG, or no freebie souvenurs/merchandise were dolled out by the IN or DRDO! Hence the lack of coverage by the 'desi' blogs.
Isnt Varunastra inferior to Western and Russian torpedos like seahake or spearfish in speed and range? Then why is Navy inducting it?
To VARUNN: Nope. That's not true. Range & speed performances are comparable. Performance parameters available for the SeaHake & Spearfish concern the submarine-launched versions of these torpedoes. Varunastra is autonomous, isn't wire-guided & is ship-launched, not submarine-launched. The Shakti thermal torpedo now under development will be submarine-launched.
Hi
http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfocus/oct2000/underwater.htm
This has more information about thermal propulsion and future development from DRDO . It will have higher speed and low noise due to use to pump jets.
@Prasun Sir
'Desi' coverage for Varunastra's hand-over ceremony can be found at Shiv Aroor, Anantha Krishnan and Saurav Jha's twitter/facebook channel. Even IDRW ran an unsourced article.
Although, i fear, my protestation will be of little avail in escaping this pejorative appellation, still i'd like to know, why do you always paint the word 'desi' in such a dismissive tone..? Are you a "bidesi"?
To ROY: Is it protestation or clarification? And why no exclusive thread in such blogs dealing with this handover ceremony? Why this obsession with only highlighting of major platforms, & not sub-systems? That's what I'm asking. And yes, I'm indeed dismissive with extreme prejudice when it comes to such 'desi' journalists, especially when they state that no contract has been inked to date for the F414-GE-INS6 turbofan, when during the Aero India 2015 expo there were GE Aero Engines posters hanging on lamp-posts all the way from Bengaluru City till Yelahanka AFS proudly proclaiming that the 'first F414-GE-INS6 turbofan is slated for delivery to ADA this June'. Now, if these 'desi' journalists have eyes & yet cannot see such tens of such posters & continue to mis-inform their readers, do you expect me to be forgiving? Or am I to believe that GE Aero Engines is lying through such posters? Or is GE Aero Engines engaging in charity/daan-dharam by developing & supplying the turbofans free-of-cost?
And no, I'm not a 'bidesi', but a 'videshi' in terms of my positional location. And I'm also not a journalist.
Well Sir, My protestation comes after my clarification.
Ans Yes you do have the narrative qualities of consistency, coherence and intelligibility that they sometimes lack and that's why we always turn to your blog for a comprehensive picture.
But arent you being a snob by taking a small part and using that to make a complete picture of them. And not only them but towards the whole creed of Indian-origin journos??
But then 'journalism' is itself controversial? and matters related to defense, speculative in nature? aren't they ? (Though you have a level of sophistication even in your speculation!)
The thing is, Im not asking you to be forgiving but a little accommodating towards them and (even if you cant) be a little unambiguous while describing them. Lots of adjective/depriciative can be used instead.
BTW you would still be a 'Bidesi' in terms of MY positional location, that being Bengal. Though i doubt that in terms of YOUR ethnicity, nationality and citizenship.
Regards,
Prasenjit Roy
To PRASENJIT ROY: How does one become a snob by pointing out the truth through facts? And who has used broad brushstrokes to paint the whole creed of Indian-origin journos as 'desi' journalists? Certainly not me. I have always singled out those journalists who have consistently engaged in wild & delusional speculations. And how are matters related to defence/national security speculative in nature? It is always incumbent upon journalists to spell out the facts & not spew out utterly erroneous data that makes their readers go haywire. And you're asking me to be accommodating even at the cost of going haywire when the bare truth has always been staring at us? What kind of reasoning is that?
Your positional location or that of anyone else--living or inanimate--can never be Bengal. There's no territorially defined geographical landmass or nation-state in existence called Bengal. One is either from the Indian state of West Bengal, or one is from a country called Bangladesh. And to the best of my knowledge as of now there has been no landmass or sandbank that has just emerged anywhere in this world (due to either global warming or an undersea earthquake) that has been bestowed with the name of Bengal or which houses human beings that are ethnically different from the present-day natives of either West Bengal or Bangladesh.
You may well find all this unpalatable, but I'm from the old-school of thought which prevents me from being either accommodating or forgiving, especially when one refuses to get into specifics & prefers to dwell within generalised assumptions.
Thats a matter of perspective and I am from the new-school of thought and i wont be nitpicking over irrelevant details as you do.
As your sense of belonging is radically different i also wont be delving into the historical & geographical blunder that split the culturally/economically/ethnically unified Bengal into east and west, (by a snob who liked to deal with specifics) but Bengal (or Banga) as we natives like to call it, is still prevalent in our mother tongue. The landmass of Bengal existed from time immemorial and will continue to exist, (at least in our mindspace and in our cherished National Anthem that you must be well versed with.) So dont go all ontological when i say that i come from Bengal even if im not politically correct. Most of the 'desi' junta will get my positional location.
But from my vantage point, one should mine for the deeper truths rather than facts. By making connections, drawing conclusions and attributing motivations one is consciously or unconsciously speculating and assuming, though being very good at that and backed up by facts in most of the cases. As imaginative reconstruncion, speculation can spy out hidden truths and deserves a place of honor even in defence journalism which relies on prudent adjudication of facts.
I rest my case here.
"Keuba boley shonar bangla.. keuba boley swarnibhor bangladesh..
goragorir neiko shesh.....
To ROY: RE As your sense of belonging is radically different i also wont be delving into the historical & geographical blunder that split the culturally/economically/ethnically unified Bengal into east and west, (by a snob who liked to deal with specifics)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unlike you I don't have the luxury of shedding crocodile tears about what's transpired in the past, for I do not plan my existence based on how the world ought to be, but how the world is today as it exists. And do try to sell your dream about a united Bengal to a Bangladeshi & I would then love to see how the Bangladeshi reacts. He/she will undoubtedly retort by saying that you're being hegemonic. Only then will I interject & ask you, now who's the snob & who's insisting on adhering to the details. It's all too very easy cosying up within one's own four-corners & blurting out aloud. Try getting into the real field to bounce off your thoughts & perceptions against another party & only then will the mirror be shown to you, especially about a united Bengal.
Now here's a classic case of 'desi' yellow journalism for you to analyse:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GWXCK82Y2k
In this programme, aired yesterday, the programme anchor himself admits that all the documentation he has shown cannot be authenticated & even the PMO has rejected in writing all the allegations contained within this document. Despite this, this nitwit Chaubey fella persists in casting aspersions on the procurement process of the IA in this segment:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s23o3LcRO50
Interestingly, veterans who've served in the Siachen sector, like the Col in this programme, all swear by the excellent quality of all the imported hardware procured by the IA since 1984 & says that there has never been any kind of compromise. And yet this nitwit Chaubey persists in casting allegations of wrongdoing. Doesn't he even realise that if the PMO has already replied, then it means that the PMO must have ascertained all the facts of the case from the IA's HQ Northern Command & IA HQ? Why then waste 50 minutes of everyone's time by airing this non-story & making every effort to malign the existing stringent procurement practices of the IA & MoD? What exactly is this Chaubey fella's motive?
Or do you think this too is irrelevant (despite all those deployed with the Siachen Brigade of the IA also having access to this programme on TV) & one needs to forgive, accommodate & forget??? If the answer is yes, then I'm afraid your very existence becomes irrelevant or even a liability for the rest of India's citizens.
I'm no loner caught in the past sir. Neither do i make an issue out of a non-issue. But go visit millions of refugees resettled on tribal lands in DNK projects in Bastar, in WB, in MP, in Tripura, In Assam, in Odisha and in Andaman Islands, in the enclaves (into the real field) who had to face the injustices of history and only then the truth will set you free. You won't need a mirror to see whats in front of you.
The past has been there all along. It cant be undone. Even i'm totally up for a complete sealing of the Indo-Bangladesh border due to the geopolitical and demographic reality as it persists in this day and age. I do not mean to imply that the distinction between the historical Bengal and the present Bengal is unbridgeable. The bitter past doesnt take away the dream of a better future. Nor does it takes my (and millions like me on both sides of the border) right to call myself a 'Bengali' and my region 'Bengal' even if i have to share my identity with a neighbor or even if some snob retorts by saying that my existance becomes irrelevant/liability for someone else.
In Rabi Da's immortal words :
"Emancipation from the bondage of soil is no freedom for the tree."
Unlike you i dont have the luxury of analysing classic case of yellow journalism but still in this case, It has nothing to do with Chaubey ji being a 'desi'. Maybe 'ridiculous' or 'illogical' or 'unjustified' or just plain 'crazy' but nothing to do with him being a 'desi'.
Its a worldwide phenomenon especially in journalism.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/india-testfires-surfacetoair-missile/article8791410.ece?ref=sliderNews
Hi
Can LWT of DRDO can be developed as a Anti Torpedo Defence hard Kill System ? Is this being looked into and what are the timelines for the same???
hi prasun
drdo claims that their shakti trpedo can be integrated with russian and western subs ?? how is that possible?. Why is france not agreeing to torpedoes for other subs? when they know they can jeopardize their chances of the follow on orders?.
what aircraft has the best chance of being adopted by the IAF apart from the rafale which parikar speaks about ?.
India seems to be getting lightening pods and spice 250 bombs, can the latest gen pods be used for air surveillance as well by the flir?.As spice is a glide bomb what are the chances of it being shot down by shorads? Is it not that the C dome is a proven ,better , cheaper missile than the mica
for our small ship based air defense system?.
@Roy I dont know how much you know about Bangladeshi, but as I assumed you are on Twitter, you should know they hate Indians, most of them.
I am not going in details why they hate us, but most of this were Indian faults.
Even this is totally vivid imagination, but they say they will invade WB & Tripura, cutting the siliguri corridor and annex NE by 2030.
And you saying a single Bengal? Where it is? And if we are so much ready about Single Bengal,,,,, then why not we annexed Bangladesh in 1971?
BTW, by the same way we all started to say India as Maurya Empire. By same logic,, arent we should?
sir,
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CmMFHx6XIAAX3iW.jpg
Today IAF's MR-SAM tested,, how many more test it take before induction?
@ Roy
In addition to the above news report for Siachen , 2 news channel did the same for INS Deepak Class Replenishment Ship .. and it was horrible to see Arnab pitting one admiral with another ! after 2 days of fighting ! what was the result other than egg on the IN
PrasunDa,
1. Is the upcoming SHAKTI thermal torpedo compatible with both Kilo class & Scorpene submarines?
2.According to ET India will go for govt-to-govt German deal for torpedos because the Frenchies are suggesting that they are willing to provide F21 but only for French submarines or those built with French help.
This meant that in case the French don't make the cut in future submarine contracts with India, the government will have to look for options.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/india-likely-to-go-for-govt-to-govt-german-deal-for-torpedos/articleshow/52958741.cms
3. Is it possible that India might just be able to find the right engine for the IL 214-MRTA, thereby reviving the project?
Thanks,
VIKRAM
To VIKRAM GUHA: As I had explained a few times earlier, all torpedoes can be physically accommodated into any submarine PROVIDED the combat management systems's (CMS) torpedo fire-control system (FCS) is modified to incorporate the torpedo FCS' operating software associated with each torpedo-type. The Shakti thermal torpedo, therefore, will be adaptable to any submarine whose CMS can accept the FCS operating software of the Shakti. So, everything revolves around the CMS & its torpedo FCS component. Thus, if these two are not of Indian origin, then the on-board torpedo too can't be of Indian origin. Thus, it becomes evident that the Shakti is meant for the S-2/Arihant, S-3 & S-4 SSBNs whose CMS & related torpedo FCS are also of Indian origin. Which also means that no existing submarine of foreign origin will be able to use the Shakti.
It is because of thus fundamental rule that DCNS is saying that its F-21 torpedo can be used only with the Scorpene SSK. The SeaHake being talked about is thus not for the Scorpene SSKs, but for the IN's four Class 209/Type 1500 SSKs that have ATLAS Elektronik-supplied ISUS-90 CMS & torpedo FCS on-board after they have been upgraded & refurbished, the SeaHake is reqd to replace the ageing SUT torpedoes, also of German origin. Therefore, the news-reporter has gotten it all wrong & is confused & is therefore ASSUMING that since SeaHake will be acquired, it will be only for the Scorpenes. That reporter has simply forgotten to factor in the torpedo reqmts for the Class 209/Type 1500 SSKs!
And for the reasons mentioned above, the IN's Type 877 SSKs will NEVER be able to use any non-Russian torpedo. This also applies to SLCMs. For instance, the Scorpenes will be using only SM-39 Exocets & nothing else, while the Class 209/Type 1500 SSKs will be using UGM-84A Harpoons, while the Type 877EKMs will be using 3M-54E & 3M-14E missiles.
To ROY: Rest assured that you don't have to share your identity or soil with anyone else, for the citizens of Bangladesh prefer to call themselves Bangladeshis & not Bengalis. Throughout Europe & Southeast Asia they're always referred to as 'Bangla'.
To ANUP & UNKNOWN: Yup, it's the Barak-8 MR-SAM for the IAF. Altogether, 10 firings will be required. One is done, so 9 more to go.
To RAD: Of course the Shakti can be used on submarines of any make or design, PROVIDED the supplier of the CMS & its torpedo FCS component agrees to modify them for adaptability. And this is not done by producers & designers of CMS & torpedoes worldwide. That's why the Aussie Shortfin Barracuda SSNs too won't have the THALES-built SUBTICS CMS. Instead, Lockheed Martin will supply the CMS just so that the HWTs from Honeywell can be used, this being a prime operational reqmt of the RAN to ensure interoperability with the US Navy.
To VISHAKH: LoLz! TAL is too slow & lumbering to be used as a hard-kill kinetic weapon. The underwater kinetic interceptor will have to be much smaller & sleeker, like the decoy vehicle of the Maareech.
Dear Prasun,
Its very heartening to see an Indian product being inducted in armed forces. In the case of torpedoes atleast we will have Indian HWT on board our ships.
Please share more details on the thermal HWT Shakti. Is there anything comparable to it which is already in service anywhere?
Thanks
Prasun K. Sengupta said...
To VIKRAM GUHA: As I had explained a few times earlier, all torpedoes can be physically accommodated into any submarine PROVIDED the combat management systems's (CMS) torpedo fire-control system (FCS) is modified to incorporate the torpedo FCS' operating software associated with each torpedo-type. ....Type 877EKMs will be using 3M-54E & 3M-14E missiles. "
What BEAUTIFUL Explanation Prasunda.... I personally Think these 'DESI' oopss FORGOT i should have written Indian reporters, URGENTLY requires some COACHING from you, ONLY then i think they will learn to give the 'CORRECT' information all the time...:)
Prasun
For the Type1500 upgrade will the harpoon be tube launch or have VLS? Also in addition to the system upgrade , would AIP be considered? and what abt the improvement of the crew services? did see and NDTV serial and just there was lack of any creature comfort
Dear prasun,
hope you are doing well
in the last blog comments i viewed you had said somethings about LCA which was unusual as a layman
"To PRAV: 2019 will be a more realistic figure. And even these 20 SP-series will all be IOC-standard. None of them will have OBOGS or fully retractable inflight refuelling probe or MAWS or internal ASPJ or wide-band RWRs. Neither will the follow-on 20 in FOC configuration will be built because HAL has secured approval to develop a re-engineered Tejas Mk.1 to SOP-18 design standard which HAL claims will be lighter by 750kg. Exactly how HAL will achieve this target without stretching the Mk.1 airframe by 1 metre (which is reqd if all the above-mentioned add-ons are to be internally accommodated) remains to be seen."
i live in bahrain and i saw the display of tejas. it flew beautifully, but what you say is it will make it heavier after putting in the said items! i dont understand where will we compromise on. weight or on subsystems? and most importantly was the tejas in bahrain a stripdown version or it was at max potential.
regards,
SJ
HI
India signs €35 million deal with @Thyssenkrupp to retrofit 2 Indian Navy Class 209 submarines to fire Harpoons.
THIS ONLY IS HARPOON MISSILE OR ALSO INCLUDE NEW SEAQUAKE 4 TORPEDOES PACKAGE UPGRADE AS WELL???
To Unknown @ 2.48PM : Yes, there are fundamentalists on both side of the border but i think that it has been stretched too much. There is no pervasive animosity towards each other and We are much tolerant and we love to visit each others countries frequently. Still we like to keep our cultural rivalary alive through our respective support for football clubs and through the claim of supremacy of our respective cuisines.
WRT to the 'Unification of Bengal' i would say Politics is the art of the possible where nothing can be ruled out but going by historical precedents and international laws and covenants, there is no possibility of any re-union, in the political sense. (This posibility was explored to the farthest by Sarat Bose, brother of Subhas Bose, in mid 1940's, prior to the partition and even after, but very few, a miniscule number, lent their ears to his proposals. As a matter of fact, the predominant Hindu sentiments of the Bengali middle-class, amounting to the paranoia that should the partition be annuled then Bengal would revert to rule of Muslims over Hindus, as in middle ages, prevailed over sane and rational arguements. This also strengthened, in part, the hold of Muslim fundamentalists of the then East Pakistan)
Liberal diplomacy , more people-to-people contacts and cross-cultural celebrations remain a far more optimistic option.
WRT to the cartographic relic between the two nations; the situation is now changing with reform-minded, progressive leaders in Delhi and Dhaka seeking to mitigate the burden of history. Most recently, Indian vessels from Kolkata to Agartala have begun to cut through Bangladesh, instead of taking the circuitous route through north Bengal and Meghalaya. On June 16, for the first time in decades, a cargo vessel from Kolkata, carrying a consignment for Tripura, docked at Bangladesh's Ashuganj port. The new route brings down travel distance by more than a 1000kms and reduces transit time from 30 days to 10 days. This new linkage is only the latest of a series of such initiatives. More trade and transit connectivities are on the pipeline such as the opening of Tetulia corridor over Bangladesh and Tinbigha corridor over India (which would help India to effectively integrate the NE states and bypass the vulnerable chicken's Neck) by and the most important being the long due FTA agreement between the two neighbour.
More about it here :
http://www.mea.gov.in/bilateral-documents.htm?dtl/25346/Joint_Declaration_between_Bangladesh_and_India_during_Visit_of_Prime_Minister_of_India_to_Bangladesh_quot_N
There is, of course, a long way to go, and there will be niggling troubles ahead (for example, some in Bangladesh are already unhappy with the rates India is paying for transit rights) — but there is nothing that cannot be sorted out.
To Prasun Sir : A Bangladeshi is a bengali too but a Bengali is not necessarily a Bangladeshi. And then there are Bangladeshis who are not necessarily Bengali like Manipuris and people from Chittagong hill tracts
Though its a very trivial matter, but Bengali is the English word for the name of the language; in Bengali, the language itself is called Bangla. 'Bangal' (and not bangla) would be the ubiquitous term used to refer to the people of Bangladesh.
The difference between the dialects of WB and Bangladesh is a lexical one. But people ignorant of it tries to create a distinction between them. Despite these differences, the Bengali speaking people of India, Bangladesh and the broader Diaspora share a deep-rooted admiration for their linguistic and cultural heritage.
@SJ Prasun has repeated said that all airshow displays ore of aircraft that are totally stripped down with no weapons or external attachments they even fly with half full fuel tanks.
The agility of the aircraft in this form is totally irrelevant . What matters is what the agility is when loaded with a full combat kit.
@ Prasun Sir
According to IDRW's sources and this report here :
http://www.livemint.com/Politics/IM0NK3IAm14NAyp247eYsI/India-testfires-surfacetoair-missile.html
It says that the missile was tested twice. The maiden one at around 0815 hrs and the second time at around 1545 hrs. So i guess there's 8 more to go now.
@Roy Sorry, I was signed up from different acc. Unknown was actually me.
So, I am totally taking your logic. Urdu is actually spoken in UP, and actually originated from there. Urdu also an official language of Pakistan, so why not Pakistani called themselves as Bharatwasi?
Further, people originated from WB called themselves as Bengali, and why people from Bangladesh as Bangla.
Lastly, As you already said India now cant absorb Bangladesh geographically or politically,,,, so what you trying to prove. Bangladesh is a sovereign independent country.
And nations are not born on basis of ethnicity, ethnicity is a criteria but not a supreme criteria.
So, West Bengal is west Bengal, Bangladesh is Bangladesh. There is nothing common in between them. Otherwise Pakistan and UP is same. Afghanistan is same as FATA or Waziristan. Same as Taiwan and PRC is same.
What difference in them? Nothing?
To VED: Whatever I have on the Shakti HWT has already been uploaded above by way of slides. There's nothing new to write about as of now.
To BIRBAL: VMT. In order to clear this confusion (since time & asgain the same questions have been asked by several folks) I have just uploaded the various packages associated with each submarine-type. Hope this clears all the confusion once & for all.
To G: All ASCMs of the IN from all SSKs of the IN are & will be tube-launched. Special tubes have to be installed on-board since such ASCMs are hot-launched, i.e. the rocket booster ignites inside the tube. Therefore, existing torpedo-tubes can't fire ASCMs. In case of torpedoes, the Western practice is to open the launch tube's door & then eject the torpedo through compressed air & only after exiting the torpedo tube does the torpedo's propulsion system kick-in. The Russians have a different system, i.e, their submarines first open the torpedo tube doors & allow the tube to be filled with water & after that the torpedo's propulsion system kicks in inside the tube itself & the torpedo then swims out on its own power. In case of the US, rammers are used to eject the torpedo, following which the torpedo's propulsion system is activated.
To VISHAKH: Harpoons & the DM2A4 Sea Hake HWTs. As the slides above show, the ISUS-90 CMS already contains embedded OS reqd for evolving fire-control solutions for the DM2A4 Sea Hake HWT. Only for the UGM-84 Harpoon will an extra server cabinet will need to be installed as part of the ISUS-90 CMS & this is no problem now since the pressure-hull of the SSKs will have to be ripped & opened when undergoing the SLEP. TKMS in turn will supply the specially-designed 533mm Harpoon launch tubes.
To ANUP: Why not? What's wrong with the SLEP? The USS Missouri was more than 40 years old when it was firing at targets in Beirut in 1982. At that time the warship's vintage didn't make any difference for those Lebanese & Palestinians who were at the receiving end.
To SJ: The two Tejas Mk.1s at the BIAS-2016 expo were the LSP-4 & LSP-7 models, both of which represented the production-standard version of Tejas Mk.1. In addition, both were flying in clean configuration, i.e. in a non-weaponised configuration. That's why I've always stated that aircraft giving only aerobatic demonstrations at air shows do not represent the actual flight characteristics that are reqd when flying during combat. Even if HAL succeeds in reducing the Tejas Mk.1's empty weight by 750kg, the problem of finding extra internal volume for the additional specified fitments for self-protection will remain. The only realistic option therefore is to go for the Tejas Mk.2 variant to cater to the additional fitments, without which that MRCA will be defenceless against fire-and-forget BVRAAMs.
Lolz. So u are The Arpit. Your shallow knowledge and your superficial grasp on the subject is pretty evident here reading through your comments and going through your reasoning and deductions. But still i'll try to answer.
For Bengali speaking people worldwide, the language itself is a big part of their history. The very birth of today’s Bangladesh is intimately linked with the Bengali language or Bangla.
In 1951 when today's Bangladesh was part of Pakistan the Urdu language was legislated as the sole national language, although Bengali speakers were more numerous in the population of the entire country. On February 21, 1952, protesting students and activists
walked into military and police fire in Dhaka University and they killed three young students were killed. This was the spark that led to the Bengali Language Movement (Bhasha Andolan) It subsequently led to a much larger political movement against the ruling of
West Pakistan (what is today’s Pakistan) and eventually led to the bangladeshi liberation war in which india played a decisive role against the Pakistanis.
Bengali(English way of saying it), Bangali(Hindi/Urdu way of saying it) and Bangla(bengali way of saying it) are one and the same used to refer to the same language just as Jal, Paani and Neera is used to refer the same thing ie water. The usage, accent and phonetics changes from time to time and place to place but its soul is/was/will be the same. Just as in the case with water or with other languages. Then there are dialects and sub-dialects whose usage is mutually intelligible between the users of the particular language. All i mean is that there are more commonalities than differences between them. The history of the region is closely intertwined with the history of Bengal and the history of India.
Even Sanskrit (or sanskritam or samskrta which has the most influence among the contemporary indian languages) didn't originate in mainland India but around what is now Syria. So does that make us Syrians?
And why should one be the same as the other? But that doesn't mean that there's no commonality between them.
I Just torpedoed into a few nice finds :
Unmanned Vessel firing torpedo in a first. (Hope IN is watching it)
https://www.elbitsystems.com/elbitpr/files/Seagull_Trial.pdf
And, the VA-111 Shkval supercavitating torpedo capable of speeds in excess of 200 knots
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VA-111_Shkval
(Maybe the next thing for DRDO to work upon.. or maybe the next Indo-Russian JV)
To RAY: You have claimed that "The very birth of today’s Bangladesh is intimately linked with the Bengali language or Bangla." That's total baloney & a gross distortion of the truth. For, despite the imposition of Urdu as the national language of both East & West Pakistan by Jinnah, the East Pakistanis were quite happy to subsist under such a ruling till mid-December 1971.
The principal reasons for the emergence of Bangladesh were two-fold: sustained & systematic socio-economic deprivation of the natives of East Pakistan; & India's decisive military intervention in November-December 1971. The affirmative action for securing East Pakistan's independence was first conceptualised when Sheikh Mujib met with Indian intelligence & diplomatic officials on the night of December 25, 1962 in Dhaka. That's how far back planning had begun & it is all now part of recorded history in the memoirs of those who were then in the thick of such developments.
As for the second reason, why India made her military intervention in East Pakistan was only for the sake of protecting India's national interests. For, with Sheikh Mujib locked-up in a West Pakistani prison, the entire independence movement had become directionless inside East Pakistan, thanks to all the second-rung leaders of the Awami League then cooling their heels & taking it easy in Kolkata. This in turn created the space for the ultra-Leftist intellectuals of East Pakistan to spring up & try to stage some kind of political revolution of their own. In fact, several of the professors & lecturers of Dhaka that were murdered between March & November 1971 were killed by these native Leftists. For India then, the nightmare situation was that of an ultra-Leftist Bangladesh rising up like a phoenix with the help of Communist China. Had that happened, India would then might as well have bid goodbye to the entire Northeast for good.
This & only this was the very reason why India decided to undertake decisive military operations in order to secure her Northeast, as well as to marginalise or even eliminate the ultra-Leftists of East Pakistan with or without Sheikh Mujib. For, even then no one in India knew whether Mujib was alive or dead inside West Pakistan. And the fact that the Mukti Bahini & its Mukti Joddhas were trained & equipped in large numbers by the BSF (& not by R & AW according to popular folklore) & were able to operate with impunity thanks to an alienated population, all played a role in the swift & decisive conduct of India's military operations inside East Pakistan. They were never conducted for any love of any language or culture, but purely for the sake of protecting India's supreme enlightened national interests. And this is exactly how it should be at all times.
And finally, what is all this about Sanskrit originating in Syria, of all places?
Dear Ray or Roy or Rai this is neither the forum nor are you breaking new ground or sharing new information......could you torpedo your irrelevant submersible😁. The partition was a necessary bitter medicine for better or worse identified by the bengali hindu bhadralok Intelligentsia😉 to ensure precisely this, a space for the middle class Hindu Bengali rather than being dominated forever by the numerical majority
India has signed an over Rs.262 crore deal with Germany’s ThyssenkKrupp Marine Systems to retrofit anti-ship American Harpoon missiles on two Shishumar Class submarines. The retrofitting of the new weapon suite will be carried out on INS Shankush and INS Shalki at Naval Dockyard, Mumbai and is backed by a training package to support and operate the system. “It is a key milestone in our long-standing commitment towards India. We have the capacity to integrate any weapon system that is selected by the Indian Navy, onto our submarines,” Gurnad Sodhi, Managing Director of ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems’ operations in India, said. The company, which is also eyeing the over Rs.60,000 crore P75 (I) project under which six conventional submarines are to be built in India, said it has successfully carried out such integration on similar boats for other navies across the world. Emphasising on the company’s commitment towards India, Sodhi said ThyssenKrupp is also ready to integrate any weapon system, including ‘Brahmos’ on to the latest 214 Class Submarines for the upcoming project P75 (I) project. “We fully support the ‘Make and Made in India’ policy which would encompass inter-alia Transfer of Technology (ToT), training and meeting all offset obligations. We are awaiting the government’s decision on the Strategic Partner chapter of the new DPP 2016, after which we will begin our negotiations with an Indian shipyard for the P75(I)”, he added. Cooperation between Indian Navy and ThyssenKrupp dates back to more than three decades. The existing HDW Class 209/1500 submarines have been performing well, without any inherent problems and the Indian navy has been satisfied with their performance, despite their vintage, the company said in a statement. The US had in 2014 decided to sell anti-ship Harpoon missiles to India costing some $200 million to enhance India’s defence capability and strengthen Indo-US strategic ties. The entire package under the foreign military sale route includes a dozen odd UGM-84L Harpoon Block II Encapsulated Missiles, 10 UTM-84L Harpoon Encapsulated Training missiles, and two Encapsulated Harpoon certification training vehicles.
http://www.livemint.com/Politics/eaYnIFJkIncUp9bh6iX4fP/India-inks-Rs262-crore-deal-with-ThyssenKrupp-Marine-Systems.html
http://www.azargoshnasp.net/history/Aryan/mitanniaryanpantheons.pdf
Thanks Prasunda for the UPLOAD.
WOW guys, 2 of the most POWERFUL and DEADLY Torpedoes will be with the IN Submarines...
DON'T Mess with me, either i will HAKE you to Death at SEA...OR STING you to a Very Painful death with my F..., not fangs..that you will remember for your lifetime.
WARNING: Enemies Beware... I am NOW even More Deadly at sea and you can't even SEE me..hehe
cont'd from above
If above mentioned ways is Not enough , Don't worry I have the Power of the Water(Ocean) with me, VARUNASTRA and even that is Not enough , I have the POWER of the Nature with me, SHAKTI, it will definitely Burn you..hehe
Prasunda you had written
" ....the pressure-hull of the SSKs will have to be ripped & opened when undergoing the SLEP.."
After undergoing SLEP, for how many years can the INS Shankush and INS Shalki remain in service?? INS Shankush had alredy completed almost 30yrs in service with the IN.
When will the INS Shishumar and INS Shankul undergo SLEP??
Sir,
what is your take on "Russian submarine Losharik". Does IN has any chance getting their hands on this submarine?
Regards,
G T
@ROY Bangladesh is separate country which will never be a part of India again if it had chose to it would have had been back in 1971 itself West Bengal is a Part of India and it will never be merged with Bangladesh even if you want it to happen. Let me put it simply "Amar Sonnar West Bengal Bhishon Bhalo Bengal"(not Bangladesh) this is for every Indian.
ROY the pan-Bangla and Senthil the pan-Tamil fun thing no pan-India supporter yet wow
I think by referring to "DESI" Prasun is being sarcastic towards those Indian journos who claim to be focussed on indigenisation and appear to be great patriots with an aversion towards anything foreign. In reality however, while they attempt stir up patriotic feelings, they deliberately or naively ignore factual basics and give in to more wishful thinking than actual events. They try to say how without saying why. There is also a hyprocritical side Prasun points out by the term "Desi"- on the one hand they want 100% Indian but on the other they think nothing of promoting foreign companies who pay for their trips and meals and act as conduits of foreign vendors- taking sides in lieu of their fervent nationalism! In other words what they really publish is often half truth and infomercials.
On the Bengali issue - Switzerland, Austria, Germany all have official language German but they are all independent of each other; Belgium shouldn't even exist as half of them speak French the other half Dutch so why not merge with Holland and France? Ukraine and Russia and in fact all Slavic countries are brothers - they share similar language and roots and yet no unity there. Why have Cyprus - cut it up and merge with Turkey and Greece. Why have all those South American and Central American countries when barring Brazil they all speak Spanish. So you see just because there are linguistic common threads and cultural ties don't mean the countries have to be united. It's a bit like saying Saudi Arabia should have the world's best brain surgeons because of the number of heads available for scrutiny per day everywhere in that nation! Well I always say weren't it for the kilts and burqas no one would ever wonder what's under them eh? ha ha ha
Prasun please answer some of my previous query and care to comment on my explanation of your intent :)
@Ray, Roy, Light & whatever you are:: Firstly dont get personal, because if I get to personal mocking, you unable to dealt with that.
And if Bangla used for language and not people, then why Mujibur Rahman used "Joy Bangla" for nationalism,,, and why in WB it used as slang for conjunctivitis? Lot of similarity, isnt it?
And if in 1951, Nationalist movements already started and not in March 1971, then why Mujibur Rahman before crackdown was negotiating with Bhutto? Or you saying he was backstabbing his own people by negotiating. So much for nationalism.
And instead of banging your head on wall, watch this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeORZrjWeqo
If you dont know our history, then Bengal was the birthplace of Indian Leftist movement & Indian nationalism. And especially these were concentrated in WB when Bengal was one. So much similarity in mindset of Bengalis & Bangladeshis.
And it was Bengali Muslims in 1946 Provincial Elections that voted for Muslim League and Pakistan, and accepted two nation theory. Not West Pakistan or West Bengal.
If current Bengali and Bangladeshis are like minded people, then it should be in past as well, that means people that were living in East Bengal were also Indian nationalist. Isnt it? If these Bangladeshi were so nationalist toward India, than why not Mujibur Rehman started a Indian nationalism movement to join India, instead of independent nation?
And if you saying there is a commonality between who accepted Two Nation Theory, and who rejected this ( as in WB), then no one can help you.
Lastly,
Can you provide proofs that Sanskrit originated from Syria when it was part of Babylon Empire or even before from that?
Prasun Da,
1. What are the technologies related to the SHAKTI torpedo that DRDO has yet to develop? Last heard they were still perfecting thermal propulsion.
2. Does it not make more sense for Indian AF to purchase the SUKHOI SUPERJET & use it as an MRTA instead of the IL-214? I say this because some private operators in India are already using the Sukhoi Superjet so procurement cost, maintenance cost will be low.
Thanks,
VIKRAM
Mr. Prasun, request your opinion on the following article
http://www.business-standard.com/article/international/china-pulls-up-chief-negotiator-for-limited-global-support-for-anti-india-position-at-nsg-116063000126_1.html
Would China accept verdict of the Hague Court, given it`s stand on NSG forum?
Dear Prasun,
Good news indeed for the Shishumar class subs. Harpoon and Seahake are deadly combination on submarine.
As a matter of fact Harpoons are also equipping our P8Is. Good for IN.
Also the MRSAM tests are proving to be very successful.Vajra T deal also placed with L&T. Add M777 deal to it. Good news for IA too.
Not the least Tejas got inducted in IAF.
Overall a very eventful day for defence.
Need to know how have we deployed our assets in Andaman and Nicobar islands to check PLAN movements. Do we have any naval base there to check PLAN movements. Not much is known in public domain about this far eastern naval command.
Thanks.
To ARPIT KANODIA: Both Bengal & the Telengana region were the bastions of hard-core Communist ideologues. Independent India's first police crackdown on such ultra-leftists began in Telengana. Ironically, even today the top-level ideologues of the Maoist movements are all Telugu-speaking pseudo-intellectuals who had pelted from Andhra Pradesh after being hounded out by the ruthlessly efficient 'Grey Hounds' force of the Andhra Pradesh State Police. In the late 1960s several ultra-leftists were trying to secure a foothold in Maharashtra, especially in Mumbai, but a well-organised police crackdown prevented this in 1970. One of the ultra-leftists caught & later released then decided that enough was enough & it was time to enjoy life, & thus he emerged as a born-again person by the name of Bhagwaan Shri Rajneesh! His motto therafter was: the poor already have enough Gods to worship, so I will be God only for the rich & famous. He ended up being the owner of 79 Rolls-Royce limousines--all donated by his disciples.
To VED: I have just uploaded above the press release from TMS that also mentions the retrofitting of the C-303 torpedo countermeasures system on the latter two Class 209/Type 1500 SSKs, since the first two SSKs of this class were also previously retrofitted with this same system. Ther C-303 is also on the S-2/Arihant SSBN. Also, read this:
https://www.hclinfosystems.in/newsroom/press-release/hcl-infosystems-implements-first-ever-converged-communication-network-betwe-1
HCL Infosystems has enabled the design, development and deployment of Defence Communication Network (DCN)--the first tri-service communication and IT network of the Indian armed forces. The network has been fully designed and developed in India. Defence minister Manohar Parrikar today dedicated the defence Communication Network to the nation. Speaking on the occasion, Premkumar Seshadri, executive vice-chairman and managing director, HCL Infosystems Ltd, said: "This is a moment of great honour for us. HCL Infosystems is proud to design, develop and deploy the first ever converged tri-service communication and IT network for the Indian Defence Forces. The network has been entirely designed and developed in India. We have made significant investments in creating defence communication technology practice, involving design of critical technology systems for military communication. HCL Infosystems is privileged to have the opportunity to successfully partner in yet another mission critical programme of national importance--the Defence Communication Network." DCN is the largest single satellite network in the Indian Defense Forces, spread across the country. This integrated communication architecture between the Army, Navy and Air Force will help bolster the prowess of the country's defence forces during both critical operations and rescue missions. DCN is a major step towards ensuring Network Centricity across the three Services, IDS and SFC. HCL Infosystems has been closely working with the Indian Air Force to deploy The Air Force Network (AFNet) and AFCEL (Air Force Cellular Network). AFNet is the first network of its kind for Indian Defence Institutions, which interlinks major installations across the country on a high-bandwidth network. It incorporates latest traffic transportation technology.
To VED: Also, do note that what happened yesterday was the beginning of the process of service-induction of the Tejas Mk.1 MRCA. What it means is that the IAF will now begin the process of familiarising itself with the MRCA so that the MRO & operational manuals can be written. This alone will take 2 years to complete, provided all 4 aircraft to form a complete flight are delivered on time. All that ADA has supplied the IAF so far are technical manuals, & they're not the user-manuals reqd for an operational squadron. Now it is up to the IAF to wait for FOC status to be granted to the Tejas Mk.1, following which the user-manuals will be drafted & finalised. But this also be be an incomplete process since the first 20 SP-series Tejas Mk.1s won't be built to FOC standards (i.e. all those fitments specified by the IAF that I had listed out earlier above won't be on-board these 20 Mk.1s), but will be built to IOC-2 standard. Therefore, all in all, yesterday's event wasn't exactly a service induction in the true sense of the term. After all, what's the use of inducting an incomplete platform into service? It was thus for all intents & purposes an event for just scoring some political points, perhaps in lieu of a forthcoming reshuffle of the Union Cabinet.
To VIKRAM GUHA: It's the wire-guidance component that needs to be fully developed. Earlier, the NSTL had planned to develop a wire-guided version of the Varunastra, known as the Takshak. But R & D work of this version had to be stopped due to technological hurdles.
How can the Sukhoi Sj-100 SuperJet qualify as an MRTA when it does not even sport a rear-loading ramp? Nor does it have a high-wing configuration that's required for STOL operations.
To FINANCEBLOGGER: China has already publicly stated that it will never accept the verdict of the ICJ. That's why it has been trying for long to create divisions within ASEAN & negotiate the maritime dispute on a bilateral basis. So far, it has succeeded in bringing only Brunei, Cambodia & Laos to its side.
Hello Sir Ji
I was going through some of this BLOG's ARCHIVES and I suddenly realised
It has been FIVE YEARS since you started this Blog
This Blog was started in APRIL 2011
Did ANY of your readers Congratulate you or say THANK YOU to You
Sir You are doing an absolutely WONDERFUL Job
We are really Grateful to you
Thank You PrasunDa.
1. I suspect that since DRDO has not been able to perfect the wire guidance component of the Shakti torpedo, MoD might insert a ToT clause related to wire guidance while purchasing the SeaHake or F-21.
2. Do you see any possibility of the IL-214 MRTA project of being revived?
Thanks again
VIKRAM
To VIJAY: VMT indeed, but this present blog is a continuation of my previous blog called TRISHULGROUP, which commenced uploading in the last quarter of 2008.
To PIERRE ZORIN: LoLz! You got it right by 80%, while the remaining 20% accounts for the 'desi' press-corps engaging in useless banter & gross historical distortions. For instance, regarding the snowsuits, the real issue ought to have been concerning the development of indigenous snowsuits, since the annual reqmt since 1984 has been 20,000 units every year. With such a guaranteed demand, how come no one ever thought of initiating R & D to fulfil this reqmt through indigenous means? And how can we expect anyone else to develop it for us when it is only the IA that is deployed & engaged in such forbiding altitudes? Grab the bull by the horns, as the saying goes.
Turning now to historical distortions, here's a prime example:
http://www.business-standard.com/article/economy-policy/missile-test-an-urgent-step-towards-defending-iaf-bases-116070100021_1.html
On September 6, 1965, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) launched its first major air attacks into India. Ranging freely across the border, PAF fighters attacked multiple Indian Air Force (IAF) bases, destroying (according to Indian accounts) ten Indian fighters on the ground in Pathankot, damaging another three, and downing two IAF fighters protecting Halwara air base. The next day, another 12 Indian fighters were destroyed on the ground in Kalaikunda air base, in West Bengal. The IAF remained on the back foot for the rest of the 1965 war. The likelihood of another such debacle receded on Thursday, with the successful test firing of the eponymous medium range surface to air missile (MR-SAM) off the Odisha coast.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If only these ill-informed journalists had bothered to read AVM Arjun Subramanyam's book 'INDIA's WARs from 1947 to 1971', such mumbo-jumbo would not have been disseminated among the readers of such reports. Furthermore, for base air-defence, the IAF had procured MR-SAMs like the S-125 Pechora that are still good-to-go if the 1970s vintage analogue electronics are replaced by digital ones. Equally wrong is the contention that LR-SAMs will intercept hostile combat aircraft at great distances before they can enter Indian airspace. The reason why the PAF's aircraft could sneak in to northern Punjab & J & K in 1965 was because they had resorted to terrain-masking in the days when aerostat-mounted radars & AEW & CS platforms were not even on the drawing-boards! Even today, the Akash-1 SAM with 25km-range is more than adequate for base air-defence (protection of vulnerable points), while the IAF's Barak-8 MR-SAM is not meant for this role, but rather for protecting vulnerable areas like large cities & large industrial zones. Such MR-SAM sites will therefore be located on the higher-altitude highlands surrounding such cities & zones so that any interception does not result in the debris falling over such areas. Hence the longer range & faster kinetic response-time of the Barak-8 MR-SAM.
To Prasun Sengupta:
"The very birth of today’s Bangladesh is intimately linked with the Bengali language or Bangla." - i would say that statement is on point. yes, it was not the only reason. the reasons were many - and language was an important part that dealt with the question of identity. the Bengali middle-class in east pakistan was more developed and mature intellectually and as a society than the west pakistani society and their idea of the self was not distorted by ludicrous fantasies like the kind on display in pakistan now, like the glorification of west asian invading hordes and desperate attempts at trying to trace their heritage to a hodge-podge of west asian ethnicities. or at least not on the level that was in west pakistan. why that is so is too complicated for me to try and decipher here. maybe the bengal renaissance played a large role. maybe the strong and rich bengali literary universe, or to think wider, the rich and vibrant bengali cultural landscape including literature, music, arts, sciences, played a role. remember here that the bengalis always inhabited and were rooted in a bengali space unlike west pakistanis who had lost their language (punjabi mainly) and were living in an urdu universe. the language is basically a mix of west asian and hindi that is written in arabic script. a language like that was a space that was dominated by and strongly influenced by the progeny of west asian migrants and consequently the agency it espoused or rather, the agency of the language itself - if i might put it that way, was never desi.
"despite the imposition of Urdu as the national language of both East & West Pakistan by Jinnah, the East Pakistanis were quite happy to subsist under such a ruling till mid-December 1971" - i would disagree here. the bengalis in east pakistan clearly were not happy with this as the history of the language movement - which is very well documented - would show. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengali_Language_Movement. now, wikipedia is not always the best place for research but that provides the gist of it. and what else could they have done anyway - aside from protesting? start a war? with what? and indeed they did go to war - and as your post states - Mujib had finalised those plans way back in 1962 itself. clearly he did not arrive at such a decision overnight, or by himself. secession from a state whose western half had the lion's share of the military needed time. it also needed to be done carefully with public support (essential since despite being bengali - the population was still msulim). that support was carefully built up with the movement that culminated in the call for independence.
like i said there clearly were other reasons - the indian establishment had its reasons and the bengalis inhabiting east pakistan had their reasons - but the reasons were many - including language for bengalis (indeed i would say even for indian bengalis to support it) and they were many for indians as well - strategic yes, but also because of what india is - there was a humanitarian side of it - and neglecting that and saying that all that india did was for pure self interest - would be a gross negligence of history. india couldnt sit by as millions of innocents, including hindus who were the overwhelming majority of victims, were being slaughtered in the largest recorded genocide since WW2. so a multiplicity of factors came in play.
the part where you mention the second-rung leaders taking it easy - i would dispute that. they established the government in exile under tajuddin and played a large organisational role both militarily and diplomatically. not to mention many of them also fought in the war itself. and some would go on to be part of the mujib bahini. there are several sites that have done a fine job of documenting all this and the general history. a simple search online will do. http://www.liberationwarmuseumbd.org/ is one of them. i would ask the guests visiting this blog and prasun bhai yourself, to go through some of these especially this one which i know prasunda u will love - http://www.jonmojuddho.com/. this is one of the finest archives out there containing many historical documents on the subject and given your knack for reading, prasun bhai u'r gonna love it trust me (even though u probably have access to stuff that the general public doesnt). i am curious tho about where u mentioned that several professors and intellectuals being killed by ultra-leftists. they've certainly played a harmful and destructive part even after the liberation. but i am unaware of this incident. would u pls point 2 some material that i can go thru 2 explore this... and yes, To RAY: enough of this BS about every freakin thing originating outside india.
To BHOUTIK: If you are seriously interested in in the run-up to the Liberation War, then I suggest you read this book by a former career diplomat-cum-R & AW officer:
http://www.amazon.in/Bangladesh-Liberation-Pakistan-Political-Treatise/dp/1463590881
The there's this:
http://www.tripurainfo.com/Info/ArchiveD.aspx?WhatId=86
And finally this:
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1111030/jsp/7days/story_14684291.jsp
The first book clearly details all the activities of the second-rung Awami League leaders & how they all were kept on a very tight leash by the Govt of India for obvious reasons. They NEVER had any meaningful role to play from late March till late December 1971.
Wikipedia has a fairly detailed account of the Mukti Bahini & its organisation & training, but still doesn't say much. For instance, when India had finalised its intention to militarily liberate Bangladesh in late June 1971, it was the Mukti Bahini through one of its 'operatives'--a high-class call-girl used by the West Pakistani officer cadre of the PA for sexual gratification in their respective officers' messes, whose services were requisitioned to obtain detailed geological & navigational maps of East Pakistan from the Surveyor-General's office in Dhaka. Without these maps, it would have been impossible to plan the liberation war. When the maps arrived in Fort William, the IA to its horror discovered that Pakistan had designed the maps to US scale, & not to British scale as that followed by the IA. Consequently, a scale conversion exercise was undertaken & this job was completed only in August 1971 & it was only after this that detailed operational planning began in the IA's Eastern Command HQ for the conduct of offensive AirLand operations under the overall codename OP CACTUS LILY.
Such details have still not been written in any book so far, but one gets to know about all this after meeting with the war veterans--civil & military--during various commemoration events.
i'd say that securing the northeast became a more urgent issue right after the 62 war. given the state of relations with pakistan and the informal alliance with china that was developing, the writing was on the wall. with east bengal remaining within pakistan, it would've been a matter of time before pakistan and china went towards cutting off the northeastern states from india.
and i think i made a mistake before in the way i phrased my sentence - i would include Syed Nazrul Islam, Tajuddin Ahmed, Mansur Ali, and A H M Quamruzzaman alongside Sheikh Mujib in the top-tier leadership of Awami League.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/PM-oks-1bn-deal-with-US-for-4-Poseidons/articleshow/53015224.cms
u probably already know all about this, but still, here's a 6 part series on the ultra-leftist scene during that period -
https://www.amarblog.com/omipial/posts/71515
https://www.amarblog.com/omipial/posts/71683
https://www.amarblog.com/omipial/posts/71728
https://www.amarblog.com/omipial/posts/72022
https://www.amarblog.com/omipial/posts/72459
https://www.amarblog.com/omipial/posts/73771
To BHOUTIK: That's not how China & Pakistan would have acted as a collusive threat. Nor was India worried about any direct military threat from China back in 1971 or even by the late 1960s. The principal threat was that of the various insurgent movements in the Northeast being financed, fed & armed by Pakistan. The Naga, Mizo & Manipuri insurgent leaders were all camping in Dhaka till December 16, 1971. Most of them were caught & eliminated by the IA on that day itself inside their safehouses in Dhaka.
The other scenario was that of a Communist Bangladesh emerging with China's support & this new entiry would also have offered safe sanctuary to the northeastern insurgents, while China would have armed them.
To ROY: Kindly post only the weblink, & not the entire lengthy narrative from the weblink, so that those interested can access the webpage & form their own conclusions. Posting lengthy quoted narratives only gives one the impression that the blogger.commentator is espousing the same views as those on such narratives, on account of which emotional & sentimental issues tend to take precedence over objectivity. And that's exactly the reason why many such emotionally-driven folk purposely overlook Sheikh Mujib's own later admission that he had mistakenly added an extra 0 (ZERO) when asked about his estimated figure of East Pakistani natives killed between March 25 & December 16, 1971. For it is physically impossible for just 64,000 PA troops from West Pakistan that were deployed there at that time to end up killing 2 million East Pakistani natives during a 9-month period.
Thanks Prasun. That example ought to establish the true intentions and ambivalence of these reporters or shall I say reporting agents. If they are so patriotic why make the nation look stupid and the IAF incompetent? I reckon some of these so called journos should have all paid for trip and a grand banquet set up in the middle of chop chop square so they can see for themselves what patriotism really is - any discontent and off with your head ha ha ha.
Like Arpit said is it the NPT that prevents India from outright buying the Akula and not the MCTR?
1) On which ships varunastra will be installed ?
2) How many varunastra will be procured by navy ?
3) Where is light weight torpedo (Shyana) installed ?
4) Apart from first 25 ordered,were further order placed for these torpedoes,if yes then how many ?
Prasun I have being reading your article and its very informative. Specially how you take time and effort to ans the queries.
My query is in future during a war if enemy attack with cruise or ballastic missile , is there a way to identify if it carries a nuclear war head.
I am asking specially the case of pakistan which has first use policy and india has no first use.
Thanks
PrasunDa,
(1) Economic Times reported today that India will export to Vietnam:
1.a new sonar system ;
2.torpedo launchers;
3.a fire control system ;
4.new antisubmarine rocket launcher system
Will you please explain which [above mentioned 4]systems are they talking about ?
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/india-firming-up-military-ties-with-vietnam/articleshow/53014998.cms
(2) Meanwhile more yellow journalism from Economic Times. According to them the RS.262 crore deal with ThyssenkKrupp Marine Systems is ONLY to retrofit anti-ship American Harpoon missiles on 2 Shishumar Class submarines.
Fortunately you have already explained that the upgrade is far more comprehensive than just fitting anti ship Harpoon missiles.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/india-inks-rs-262-crore-deal-with-thyssenkrupp-marine-systems/articleshow/52990404.cms
(3) Now that India has signed the MTCR, is it possible that the range of these HARPOON missiles can be increased?
Thank You
Vikram
Sri PKS - What was the real role of Maulana Bhashani during the liberation days of 1971 and earlier.
To VIKRAM GUHA: Have just uploaded the slides above to explain the upgrade package for retrofit on the VPN's three Project 159 ASW corvettes. Harpoon ASCMs all come with same range envelopes. They can';t be expanded.
To RAJESH MISHRA: Here's something on the Maulana that will help you get some of the answers:
http://iias.asia/sites/default/files/IIAS_NL55_1213.pdf
To ANUPAM: There's no way to distinguish between a conventionally-armed & nuclear-armed ballistic/cruise missile. Nor is there any need to distinguish & therefore TMD or CMD networks will have to be conceptualised & designed in such as way that they can intercept ballistic/cruise missiles regardless of their warhead-types.
To KUNAL JADHAV: 1) On the Project 17 FFGs, Project 1135.6 FFGs, Project 28 ASW corvettes, Project 15 DDGs, Project 15A DDGs & Project 15B DDGs & later on the 16 SW-ASW vessels. 2) 63. 3) On ASW helicopters & Project 16 FFGs. 4) Not yet. Because the TAL is nothing more than a cloned A244S Whitehead torpedo supplied by WASS in the 1980s.
To PIERRE ZORIN: To date, no one has sold SSNs or SSGNs or SSBNs to anyone else. Not even among NPT signatories or MTCR signatories. Nor will this practice change.
Thanx for the nice link on Maulana Bhashani. It clarifies that Maulana was basically a Devbandi hardliner who in order to spread and popularize himself may not refrain from adopting pseudo-secular, populist, communist slang and tactics. He was obviously anti-India from the very beginning.
Sir,
1 What will be the max range of Agni 6;when do you expect its first test?
2 What is the status of Shaurya and Prahaar mssile?
3 RM Parrikar has said that India will export export Tejas. But it still lags behind its prime competitor Gripen. Specs wise, will Tejas mk2 be comparable to latest Gripen E?
4 Is India developing any Hypersonic Glide vehicle like Wu-14 or Yu-71?
Implementing CPEC projects, China-style....Pakistan-based Chinese citizens hacking Pakistani ATM accounts:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6n8UfWROjPA
VARUNN: 3) Yes, I too am waiting for the day when India becomes the first country in the world to export weapons platforms containing Israeli avionics to an Arab air force! Can anyone ever imagine Egypt ordering a Tejas Mk.1 MRCA fitted with EL/M-2032 MMR, ELL-2022 EW pod, Targo HMDS, Derby & Python-5 AAMs & Griffin-3 LGBs--all of Israeli origin??? But that's exactly what the RM, DRDO & the band of 'desi' journalists would want us all to believe!!!
Pierre Zorin, any thoughts on this?
Well what can I say - not only are we fighting an invisible hand but it also seems we are trying to sign an invisible export order! Another example of hypes aimed at sensationalism instead of senses. They don't seem to realise that induction really is orientation in India's case because to make something operationally viable a LOT has to be done after the initial platform has been created. These guys just leap into the future ignoring the present and forgetting the past. Boy back to the future alright. It also seems regardless of the party, they seem to pick DM/RM who have no idea about anything technical. Why even business sense is missing. If AKA was Humpty then this guy Parrikar er Pariah-kar is determined to be the Dumpty. My thought is this kind of headlines seeking behaviour should be put in the Indian X FILES - you can't see anything, can't prove anything, doesn't even fit rational explanation but yet you got to believe!
Hi
News in Economic times that IA HAS REJECTED INDIAN GUN AND ARE PLANNING ANOTHER RFI FOR 7.65 mm BULLET GUNS >.. IS this correct???
http://idrw.org/army-hunts-lethal-assault-rifle-junks-drdos-excalibur/
Either presstitutes at it again, or army brass suffering from lead poisoning (sucking the 7.62 ammo lead?). Not to mention we have 7.62 version called Ghatak and Trichy AR? How can Army brass be so stupid?
Army has launched a fresh hunt for a new-generation assault rifle all over again. Rejecting the 5.56x45mm calibre Excalibur rifle offered by the DRDO-Ordnance Factory Board combine, the force has now decided to go in for a 7.62x51mm gun with "higher kill probability and stopping power".
The RFI has been issued.
Source: times of India
Is the news true, if yes why the flip flop every 10 years or so.
Prasun da,
http://www.defencenews.in/article/Indian-Army-hunts-for-lethal-assault-rifle,-junks-DRDOs-Excalibur-6426
I believe the tender is for the new sniper rifle as opposed to what writer is saying.
hi prasun
rajneesh a leftist!! this is the first time i have heard of it. !! please give us more info on that i thought he taught philosophy in a college! in his younger days!
Can u confirm if we are getting the seahake mod 4 torpedoes in the upgrade .Will the sonars be upgraded as well?> Do we have an option of inducting a better sonar system than the desi one on the arihant? After all it is a strategic asset. Does it have a flank sonar and towed sonarlike the scorpene ? please detail the sonar set up on the arihant.
Prasun Da,
Just Hope you had a decent Week End ,, Can you just provide the list advance research from the Russian Side .. wanted to know how the people around the world did advance research and developed advanced technologies.
To RAD: Had already confirmed that with the slides uploaded above. What more is there to be confirmed? Arihant's bow-mounted sonar is a cylindrical-array.
To SIDDHARTH, LACHIT, ROHAN & VISHAKH: So what is the problem? The ARDE has already developed both the 5.56mm Excalibur SLR & the 7.62mm Ghatak SLR. The latter will now be optimised for use by the IA. Therefore, nothing to worry about at all. There's no need to ASSUME that just because the barrel diameter has been changed, it means an imported solution will be the only answer. So, just relax, calm down, chill out & wait for the Ghatak SLR to be adopted.
Prasunda,
http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/andhra_pradesh/HSL-to-get-Rs-14K-crore-work-orders-from-Indian-Navy/2016/07/03/article3511013.ece
Kindly confirm the authenticity of the article. Which class of ship model would be considered?
Thanks , regards
what could be the real purpose of the US delegation's visit to Rawalpindi ?
Hi
1) Ghatak Rifle will have foldable But for IA or Fixed one ?
2) Will it contain 3Shot or Multiple shot mode??
3) Will it contain Israel Sight or Iron Sight?
4) It will use 7.62 x 39 or 7.62 x 51mm Rounds and expected maximum range??
5) Is IA planning to ditch 2 types of rounds and going for 1 round for Army and Anti terrorist in future also ??? Hence Multi Caliber is thrown in dustbin as single caliber is required???
6) Shifting will cause cost savings as well??
To DASHU: It is all explained here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_iuLuIZuXo
Also, watch this recent interview of the former Pakistani foreign minister:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39em8JYnrpM
To UJJWAL: It is true. The fleet replenishment vessels will be built with the help of Hyundai of South Korea & the design is from Hyundai. The LPH design has yet to be selected.
To VISHAKH: 1) It can have both. 2) Multiple-shot. 3) Any sight can be fitted. 4) 7.62mm x 51. 5) Yes. But the MCIWS can always be available with one barrel-type only as per the IA's reqmts. 6) Not necessarily.
For those interested, here's a monograph chronicling the history of torpedo R & D in India:
http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/monographs/Introduction/torpedo.pdf
IA's 7.62x51mm requirement is quite weird!! I don't think any other modern army in the world currently has this caliber rifle as the standard issue. 7.62x51mm rifles were used in the 50's and 60's; they do have a high range and accuracy but the weight of the cartridges that need to be carried is too high. Further the barrel has be to made quite thick, long and heavy to sustain the pressure generated by 51mm cartridge, which also makes it quite expensive to make!! US army used to carry the heavy and expensive (albeit accurate) M14 rifles - which of course gave way to the current nimble and cheap M16/M4 (both use 5.56x39mm rounds).
7.62x51mm caliber rounds are mostly confined to sniper rifles nowadays (where that kind of range, accuracy and lethality is required; and given the skill of the snipers fewer rounds need be carried)!
Me thinks IA will reconsider this requirement - they may settle for something like 7.62x45mm or even 7.62x39mm!! Remember that US determined that M16 rifle itself was too long and heavy for its men and hence has made the shorter and lighter M4 (carbine) as the standard issue (M16 will be obsolete in the next couple of years!). When US is going in for shorter/lighter rifles, I cannot (for the love of country) understand why IA is planning to kill its jawans by making them carry longer and heavier rifles!!
Or is the news report just bogus, like they mostly are?
According to ET, safran is offering to upgrade the kaveri and making it flight worthy in 18 months and integrate it with LCA Mk1As by 2020.
can u clear the air?
Prasunda your VIEW Urgently required...
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/france-offers-eur-1-billion-to-revive-indias-combat-jet-engine-project/articleshow/53036894.cms
Can we REALLY do a BALLE-BALLE by 2020?? I think we can...:)
To Anon@4.03AM: The 7.62 x 39 barrel is already available for the MCIWS. If the IA opts for it, it can have it.
To SPYKAR: LoLz! You must be referring to this story:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/france-offers-eur-1-billion-to-revive-indias-combat-jet-engine-project/articleshow/53036894.cms
How can it be made flighworthy when its functional prototypes are being fabricated right now for further flight-testing in Russia? Unless the definitive prototype design & its airborne flight performance data is made available to SAFRAN, how can SAFRAN even contemplate what's to be upgraded or what's to be junked & replaced? Just check how long it took for SAFRAN/Snecma Moteurs to offer a fully certified M88 turbofan from the time the first prototypes were offered for flight-testing. And no one will invest Euros 3 billion for developing & building turbofans for just 80 Tejas Mk.1As. Find me just one OEM who's willing to do this & I will believe you & ET.
On the other hand, SAFRAN's offer makes perfect sense if it is offer to develop a variant of its CFM56-5 turbofan for the stalled IL-214 MRTA project. And that's because this turbofan can also be used for the proposed 70-seat regional airliner that HAL & NAL want to co-develop.
Aren't they long associated with the development of the Kaveri since more than a decade and Kaveri with snecma's new core was considered before also? And so far at least 9 prototypes have already been developed? Moreover in the report it states that 'french experts have assesed the kaveri and indicated that '25-30%' more work would be needed to make it flight worthy.'
Euro 3 billion is the total offset amount out of which 1 billion is for this project. Makes sense if they are also helping with the scaled down 'ghatak'version for powering UAVs and seeing RM's desperation to make tejas see the light of the day.
Prasun K. Sengupta said...
...And no one will invest Euros 3 billion for developing & building turbofans for just 80 Tejas Mk.1As...
On the other hand, SAFRAN's offer makes perfect sense if it is offer to develop a variant of its CFM56-5 turbofan for the stalled IL-214 MRTA project. And that's because this turbofan can also be used for the proposed 70-seat regional airliner that HAL & NAL want to co-develop."
Can BOTH of them happen?? I mean SAFRAN INVESTING to co-develop a variant of its CFM56-5 turbofan, as PART of the offset credits that would come from the planned Rafale fighter jet deal, AND at the same time HELPing the GTRE to develop the KAVERI engine at a FASTER time by INVESTING a little....
I mean the MAJOR commercial SUCCCESS would be from the IL-214 MRTA project and side-by-side the KAVERI program would RUN to develop a engine, FIRST for the MK1A version, then a HIGHER Thrust version for the TEJAS Mk2 and maybe in future for the AMCA...PLUS there is the 'GHATAK' version of the Kaveri to go on UCAV.... I think the POTENTIAL is there to HARNESS... Your view Prasunda??
How can SAFRAN be made to HELP/ invest in our Kaveri program??
I think the question is whether the french can do it bcoz if they were'nt confident why would they be willing to put 1billion euro into it?
Thinking a little further on IA's choice of 7.62x51mm: I think such a rifle will be uncontrollable when operated in 'fully automatic' mode - because of the heavy recoil coming from a 51mm cartridge - these types of rifles are accurate only in single shot mode (ideal for sniper rifle) or just fire away uncontrollably as a 'machine' gun. Now IA cannot be serious in having each and every jawan lug a machine gun into the battlefield.
The whole idea is BONKERS. I can bet thousand bucks that this report of IA choosing 7.62x51mm rifle is complete BS (unless the generals were all snorting something).
About Regional airliner, can you disclose more about the Reliance Antonov JV. Are they planning to license produce the An-148? According to IDN, the construction of the aircraft assembly plant has already begun at the DAAP, MIHAN, Nagpur
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/07/idn-take-reliance-antonov-regional.html?m=1
As for the IL-214, GTRE had issued a tender seeking EOI from Indian private/public sector industries/organisations for the manufacture and assembly of 80kn thrust engines. Is that meant for the said MRTA?
I am very happy that IA is asking for 7.62x51mm rifles !!
to all those people who are whining about weight of gun and ammo,lol this is not the first time IA will be using this type of rifle, it has used a derivative/clone of FN FAL which chambered this type of round and afaik CRPF is still using them.
And the ppl who have used these rifles loved them to bits because they were so reliable and packed a nice punch. After all this rifle was one of the most popular after AK series for these very reason.
These rifles are leagues ahead of those puny shoot to wound 5.56x45 rifles when it comes to stopping power and accuracy.(lol just see a pic of 5.56x45 next to a 7.62x51
If IA gets what it is demanding then this will alone bring about a huge difference in firepower for our soldiers.
Imo for a 7.62x51 Just put a nice muzzle brake, counterbalancer and a good sight and you are good to go. lol you can have even a makeshift sniper by putting just a scope on it.
As per the results Safran has offered to invest 1billiom and not 3 in the kaveri project. It's not just 80 turbo fans given that the airframe lives can sustain atleast 3 engine lives, so it's 240 atleast. Maybe they can and will upgrade the engine also for mk2. Further derivatives for the ucav project will also be generated from this. So how do the economics look now
India and China both were working on the jet engine tech
which nation was close to success?
Regards
Ron
Hi
1) FN SCAR used 7.62 x 51mm rounds, so what is time line to develop Ghatak to fire this round and weight panalaties ??
2) Reliance and Anvtope are developing small takeoff plane on AN 148 basis is this correct and what are implications??
3) SAFRAN offer is based on Rafale offset requirements or offering as simple business opportunity ?
4) When is TCS planning to take off from IA and BMS initial prototype testing ??
To BIRBAL: LoLz! Last year itself I had uploaded an analysis of the Kaveri’s developmental path & the challenges ahead. It seems many have forgotten about its contents. Therefore, I’ve uploaded it again above. Do check it out. Ys, SAFRAN can help GTRE complete the Kaveri’s R & D cycle since Snecma Moteurs was in the 1990s GTRE’s consultant for doing a weight-budgeting design of the Kabini & Kaveri.
To SPYKAR: Both the Ghatak & Aura UCAVs are at the technology demonstration stage & have not yet received the endorsement from the armed forces, unlike the Tejas LCA. Therefore, there does not exists any firm, confirmed demand for the Kaveri turbofan or its variants as of now. Of course the French can help with the R & D cycle, but why are we all assuming that such help means minimal re-design or minimal re-engineering that can be completed within 18 months? This is an impossible & never-before-performed feat by an OEM in the history of engine development worldwide. In most cases, engine design re-engineering is a time-consuming process involves that incorporation of new-design modules that have to be extensively flight-tested. All this alone takes five years or more to accomplish, PROVIDED a minimum order running into several hundred engines is confirmed at the outset. The EOI you’ve mentioned concerns the fabrication of the Kaveri prototypes for a forthcoming test-flight process to be undertaken in Russia on an IL-76MD testbed.
To CSC: LoLz! You’ve lifted the figures directly from a previous article drafted by the ‘Bandalbaaz’. The figure of 3 engines being reqd for a single airframe applies to only aircraft of Russian origin, like the Su-30MKI & MiG-29UPG/K. That’s because the engines of such aircraft have a TTSL of only 2,000 hours. The Kaveri hasn’t been designed as per Russian specs, but as per Western specs that call for a turbofan to have a TTSL of more than 6,000 hours. I*n addition, deliveries of the F414-GE-INS6 are already underway for the LCA MK.2.
To FAA/RON: Check out the last slide I’ve uploaded above for data on this issue.
Dear Prasun,
Tejas has 53 short falls, 20 permanent waivers; then what is the use of this aircraft? It is equivalent to AJT Hawk 132. Since, no MAWS is there, it is an easy prey for other air dominance crafts. What will be its role in a high intensity warfare???
To SOUBHAGYA: No MAWS & no internal ASPJ as well. So the question you've raised in indeed pertinent & someone should ask the RM about it during the forthcoming monsoon session of Parliament. And let's wait & see what his answers are then.
Meanwhile, a question you had asked earlier has now become an ugly reality. Do read this:
http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/dhaka-restaurant-attackers-followed-controversial-indian-islamic-preacher-zakir-nayek-2893714/
Hi
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/07/indian-mod-issues-rfi-for-medium.html
MOD has issued RFI for MALE UAV .
1) Will this for IA or All 3 services??
2) Will this is Propeller or Turbofan based ?
3) They are looking for Only REconnaince or Weapons capability as well??
4) Which UAV platforms are on forefront from Israel and USA??
5) What are expected number to be purchased??
6) What is cost of project ??
7) Tata and Mahindra are in race for Joint venture with IAI, is it for this project??
Hi
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/07/defence-ministry-to-formulate-policy.html
2) What is the expected result of this policy change??
1) Will this result in long term commitment and investment ??
3) Which COMPANIES AND PROJECTS ARE LIKELY TO BE UNDER THIS POLICY AND BENEFIT?
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/06/29/laser-armed-trucks-are-coming-to-shoot-drones-out-of-the-sky.html
To VISHAKH: Do read these 2 RFIs & your questions will be answered:
MALE-UAV RFI: http://tenders.gov.in/viewtenddoc.asp?tid=del834883&wno=1&td=TD
BMP-2 ICV Upgrade: http://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/RFI/487/dgmf240616.pdf
So, the question that now arises is, what will become of the Rustom-1 & Rustom-2 UAVs? Junked?
As for the strategic partnership policy, don't expect anything great, for, as long as there exists DPSUs & the private-sector, an unequal playing field will remain. Make all the DPSUs fully public-listed & through some related mergers & acquisitions among these DPSUs for the sake of industrial consolidation, & then let all these companies become equals in terms of management & financial autonomy with their private-sector counterparts. Only then will apples be pitted against apples. Right now the MoD is trying various illogical band-aid-type solutions & tying itself up in knots, all of which will always fall short of expectations & consequently the desired results will NEVER be achieved. For, at the end of the day, only elementary common-sense can provide the reqd solutions. That's the only remaining viable option left on the table. Everything else will fail, that I guarantee.
Hi prasun
Zakir naik has been around too long turning already crackpot jihadists into suicide squads .Qatar gave him 100,000 $ in recognition of his islamic preaching . In One of his so called speeches he claims islam was there when the earth was created itself.
Now that jihadist owasi is funding the legal expenses of the terrorists. If no direct action is taken like america ,then india is going to be doomed .What in your thinking is the right way to deal with these vermin ? .Germany and europe is going to pay heavily in the years to come.
Sir,
I dont think Rustom 2 able to operate under 70 knots crosswinds. So why developing Rustom 2?
To RAD: It only shows that the Indian law-enforcement authorities have not been doing their jobs when it comes to ensuring that hate literature is not disseminated by any means by anyone. Characters like Naik openly & blatantly distort both Quranic teachings & those of the Al Hadith & this can easily be proven. It is also for India's Muslim clerics to issue fatwas against such characters so that they don't get a pedestal from which they spew out all kinds of mumbo-jumbo. India's legal statute also needs to undergo a thorough overhaul, as has been the case in the UK. Do read how the UK's judiciary recently took one such step:
http://indianexpress.com/article/world/world-news/pakistan-origin-man-jailed-for-shouting-allah-o-akbar-on-emirates-plane-2893610/
And here's more on this Naik fella:
http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/zakir-nayek-back-in-news-after-dhaka-terror-attack-2895147/
To ARPIT KANODIA: I had my grave doubts about the Rustom-2's viability as a stable airborne platform in 2014 itself when its full-scale model was shown at the DEFEXPO 2014 expo. There was something fundamentally wrong with its fuselage design. Perhaps that's why it has not yet made its maiden flight even 2 years after it was rolled out.
Dear Prasun,
I believe these 40 Tejas with GE 404 IN20 will be subsequently converted into LIFTs in future probably for advanced training. Hence MAWS and ASPJs are not on priority list.
In the next 80 examples (more refined version) probably they will be carried in pods.
The next version with GE414 INS6 will probably have all that is required for a standalone fighter.
Just my guess.
India and China both were working on the jet engine tech
which nation was close to success?
Regards
Ron
To VED: All LIFT aircraft are tandem-seaters. So, out of the 40 Mk.1s, at best six of them can be used as LIFT. Also, a LIFT is supposed to replicate an operational combat aircraft & therefore it too must have avionics suites similar to those in combat aircraft.
To RON: Check out the bottom-most slide that was uploaded yesterday, which explains it all.
is it true that US P&W engine maker has offered technical collaboration?
Does our kavari has any russian inputs like in INS arihant Nuclear reactor?
Who did kaveri with kabini core and french core performed in russian Gromov Flight Research Institute?why did french left in the middle of the project?
Regards,
Ron
Prasun Da,
1. Do you think this agreement between India’s Walchandnagar Industries and Russia’s Morinformsistema-Agat Concern for a Coastal Defense System(CDS) for India haS any chance of winning the contract? I mean what's the need for CDS when Brahmos is already there?
http://in.rbth.com/economics/defence/2016/07/05/russian-indian-companies-to-co-produce-coastal-defence-systems_608907
2. In the RFI for the MALE UAV that you have posted, which MALE UAV currently in operation in any country do you think can win this contract? The RFI states the MALE UAV will be used by IA, IN and IAF.
Thank You
1. In the MALE UAV RFI, it says the UAV should be capable of deploying dinghy/raft. What the heck?
2. Why isn't the demands of flight testing the kaveri on a mig-29/su-30mki not being met?
To SOUBHAGYA: He cannot prove a damn thing. He just narrates & its a one-way street with him because there's no one to challenge his narrative without a counter-narrative. For instance, if he claims that Judaism is BA, Christianity is MA & Islam is PhD, then Din-e-LLahi should be PhD Bar, because in the Al Hadith itself the Holy Prophet had predicted that a new religion will be born 500 years after the dawn oif Islam. And it happened when Emperor Akbar heralded in the Din-e-Llahi. Creatures like Naik just pick & choose only those sections of verses that suit them & do not bother to spell out the entire verse and consequently the contextualisation is always missing from their narratives. This is how distortion takes place.
As the saying goes, one can counter an idea only with another idea. So what's reqd is a person who takes on each & every utterance of this Naik fella & exposes the faultlines of his narratives in social media itself. Only then will such creatures be marginalised & exposed.
To RON. No such offer has come from P & W. Kaveri has ZERO Russian technical input. Kabini core was developed 100% by GTRE & had ZERO French industrial participation.
To SUJOY MAJUMDAR: LoLz! They are talking abou the BAL-E system. Here's the website:
http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/507/508/
I don't reckon it has any chance of being ordered. In the end, a coastal battery-launched version of the Nirbhay will be developed as an ASCM. The BrahMos-NG is another option as well. As for MALE-UAVs, the naval version of Predator & Heron-TP are the principal contenders.
To SPYKAR: 1) Not exactly a dinghy, but something like a floating air-bag in case of a crash-landing on hard ground or even in the sea. Something like an emergency flotation system that's on-board shipborne helicopters. 2) Of course it will be test-flown on a MiG-29. But at least wait for the definitive prototype engine to emerge. It is still under fabrication & it will next have to fly on-board an IL-76MD airborne testbed in Russia & only after CEMILAC's airworthiness certification will it be installed on a MiG-29. This entire process will take at least 4 years to be completed. What was tested earlier on the IL-76MD testbed in Russia was just the Kabini core. It is all explained in the slide above.
To ARPIT KANODIA: The news which all Pakistanis yesterday were apprehensive about yesterday has finally been confirmed by the Saudis:
http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/saudi-arabia-names-pakistani-man-as-suicide-bomber-in-jeddah/article8811464.ece?w=alauto
@Spykar Here what they mean by raft.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Leq2DtKFLk
To ARPIT KANODIA: I guess SPYKAR was unaware up until now the varied applications of UAS platforms, especially in the maritime sphere.
Meanwhile, for those who like to be in denial & thrive in utopia by assuming that culture unites West Bengalis & Bangladeshis, here's a reality doze that explains in detail Bangladesh's violent past & what makes violence all-pervasive in Bangladeshi society (and also in India's borderlands like Malda & Murshidabad) even today:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgvlotiHWhY
Plus, China's new Aolong-1 Roaming Dragon satellite for disposing off space junk:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qdwq9zsANMg
what do u think should govt allow other OEMs help in complete kaveri engine or should give some more time and funds to GTRE to finish kaveri indigenously? What is IAF say on kaveri? r they interested on this? did they provide inputs or wanted other OEM r GE engines in our aircraft's? if kaveri gets ready by next decade where can it fit in Tejas,AMCA,mig29? can it able to get into civilan aircraft or derive another engine from kaveri experience for civilian regional jet?
what is Single crystal blade as an input to engine? what is GTRE position in developing this complex tech?who were pioneers in this and any body interested in sharing this tech like(eg french)and what is china's position?
Regards
Ron
@Arpit and PKS Sir : Thanks for the dose of insight. I was thinking sumthing like this :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkOM14FuP9s
And, Meet Achmed the Dead Terrorist (If you havent already met him!!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_AaLOnePss
Plus this report gives a not-so-nice twist to the Aolong-1 :
http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a21627/china-space-junk-collector-potential-weapon/
To RON: Do u think should govt allow other OEMs help in complete kaveri engine or should give some more time and funds to GTRE to finish kaveri indigenously?
GTRE is perfectly capable of developing the Kaveri with HELP's assistance & as well as assistance from other DRDO labs & MIDHANI.
What is IAF say on kaveri? r they interested on this? did they provide inputs or wanted other OEM r GE engines in our aircraft's?
The IAF has always supported the Kaveri R & D project. But provisioning R & D funds is the job of the Govt of India, & not the IAF's.
if kaveri gets ready by next decade where can it fit in Tejas,AMCA,mig29? can it able to get into civilan aircraft or derive another engine from kaveri experience for civilian regional jet?
It should go on the Tejas Mk.2, since the reqmt in terms of nos is high.
what is Single crystal blade as an input to engine? what is GTRE position in developing this complex tech?who were pioneers in this and any body interested in sharing this tech like(eg french)and what is china's position?
That is not the principal challenge. The principal challenge is to develop LP/HP compressor turbine blades & the engine core with rare-earth materials like Rhenium.
I've always meant to ask this and now is the time ;
How would the LCA in its Mk1 avatar fare AGAINST the JF-17 Block-2 in a 1-on-1 AERIAL BATTLE with its OPTIMUM load of weapons and BOTH the pilots equally matched in an all-out OFFENSIVE scenario? Let the APPLES be pitched against the ORANGES and the imagination run HIGH.
As for the Kaveri debacle, Why isnt the DRDO getting its hand on a engine testbed as china did by converting an IL-76MD in the 1990's by AVIC & being operated by CFTE. Even Egypt, when developing the E300 engine under guidance of the redoubtable Ferdinand Brandner, having much poorer traditions and resources than India, had a flying test bed, a modif ed An-12 (and even one Marut!!..?), as long back as in 1964.
Secondly, what happened to the proposed high altitude test facity by HELP's assistance from Boeing?
And, What are the prospects of the Kaveri Marine Gas Turbine? There were reports of IN that IN might need as many as 40 Kaveri marine gas turbines and they are ready to fund 25% of the cost of the project.
And are there any plans to develop a turbofan derivative of the Kaveri as they did way back with the GTX-37?
@Ron
Single Crystal blades are the turbine blades made out of the strongest form of the metal. Normally a block of metal may comprise several metal crystals, with fissures/boundaries between the crystals - these crystal boundaries are areas of weaknesses. At extreme temperature and pressure (like that found inside the turbine) the turbine blades can break apart at the crystal boundaries. But if the entire blade is 'grown' as a single crystal (where ALL atoms are tightly bound to each other with no fissures/boundaries) then they can withstand extreme temperature & pressure, especially in the engine core where there's very high compression. (High compression is necessary to generate higher thrust for the given quantity of fuel/air).
GTRE has thus far has used 'directionally solidified blades', which are hard but not hard enough. There have been recent claims by DMRL that they have finally managed to master the single crystal technology. It will take some time for the technology to percolate into the Kaveri engine (if at all they've indeed managed to master the technology).
I don't think any country is keen on sharing the technology. Even US, despite the bonhomie of DTTI, has been very circumspect on co-developing the 'hot engine' (DRDO speak for single crystal blades based engine) with India. Russia had refused previously. Not sure what France & England mean by helping India with Kaveri (I doubt if they will share the complete tech).
Prasun Da,
What i am most interested to know is if NDA govt has started any covert ops on its western front. Myanmar was only possible with their govt authorization. It would be a leap in our country after the traitor IK Gujral killed off covert activities. Dunno if PVN Rao falls in same category for having faith in China.
AJ
Hey Prasun here is how the Bandalbaaz starts off his latest tune, "Over the preceding decade, under-informed defence writers and commentators have made careers out of bad-mouthing India’s Tejas Light Combat Aircraft " Take the LCA out doesn't it appear that pot calling the kettle black? Isn't what he has been doing with Indian stuff when paid for by his foreign stakeholders? Then he changes side and does the same blaming Ia and IAF for wanting imported stuff! Should have stood for a seat in the Parliament.
Prasunji,
Your view on below article
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news/lca-tejas-role-for-iaf-view-from-a-simple-sortie-rate-model/ VMT
Prasun K. Sengupta said...
" That is not the principal challenge. The principal challenge is to develop LP/HP compressor turbine blades & the engine core with rare-earth materials like Rhenium. "
Prasunda will you Please ENLIGHTEN on the above STATEMENT of yours. I mean How challenging is it to incorporate Rhenium on the turbine blades & the engine core.... Does GTRE & MIDHANI have the technological KNOW-HOW?? What are the DIFFICULTIES that will be faced by GTRE, MIDHANI??
How long, according to you, will it take to incorporate Rhenium and have a FLYING Engine for TEST purposes??
how did IAF performed in Indradhanush 2015 against eurofither in BVR,WVR? did su30 used radar bars? Red flag Alaska 2016 against F22 and f16? please give more emphasis on IAF performance against F22?
Regards
Ron
@Soubhagya July 5, 2016 at 10:27 PM
If you look up Ali Sina's critique of islam and muhammad, you'd not be taken in by the likes of zakir naiks. Ali Sina's deconstructs and demolishes islam and muhammad's character with cold facts & lucid reasoning which one cannot fault. Incidentally, he is an ex muslim. Also, he has thrown a standing challenge to zakir naik for a debate, albeit in a western country for its natural to assume anywhere else he would be killed as an apostate. Not surprisingly, zakir naik has not taken up the challenge.
To CHINAMAN: In both BVR & WVR air combat, what matters most is the situational awareness & survivability. An platform that’s superior i8n both these arenas will prevail. If a Tejas Mk.1 deployed for CAP enjoys superior situational awareness due to GCI-relayed cues, it will still find it near-impossible to defend itself if targetted by a hostile BVRAAM of any type, thanks to the lack of an internal ASPJ, even if sensors like RWR or MAWS are on-board. Carrying an external ASPJ pod on a CAP sorties is not an option since it will impose drag penalties on aircraft manoeuvrability. In the WVR mode, even with GCI cues, it is imperative to be the first to spot the target with an IRST sensor so that the Tejas Mk.1 can manoeuvre behind a hostile JF-17 in a passive mode & engage the target with the Python-5/Targo HMDS combination. This is possible even without on-board IRST sensor & with only GCI-relayed cues since the Tejas Mk.1 will be flying CAPs inside friendly airspace. But the absence of MAWS & internal ASPJ are severe shortcomings that have to be overcome before the Tejas Mk.1 is committed to battle against any adversary, & not just the JF-17 Blocks-1/2. In the CAS role it is the defending JF-17s that will have the advantage of receiving GCI cues from the PAF airspace surveillance radars, but the Tejas Mk.1s will inevitably be escorted by either Su-30MKIs or MiG-29UPGs or upgraded Mirage 2000s that will be receiving GCI cues & therefore the IAF platforms will enjoy superior situational awareness. Thus, even without interna; ASSPJ or MAWS or IRST sensor, the existing Tejas Mk.1 will be well-protected by its escorting air siperioroty platforms that will sanitise the airspace in which the Tejas Mk.1 will be operating in the CAS role. In other words, make up for technological shortcomings with innovative tactics & aircraft fleet combinations. And due to its combat radius limitations, the Tejas Mk.1 will NEVER be employed as either a tactical interdiction platform or a deep-strike platform.
To SPYKAR: Where’s the need to acquire such an airborne testbed when the Russians already have them & are more than willing to offer them for use by GTRE in Russia & in addition the Ruskies are also providing real-time monitoring & analysis of all flight-test parameters? No need for high-altitude test facility as well when the IL-76MD airborne testbed is available. Kaveri marine industrial gas-turbine too requires high-tech HP/LP turbine compressor blades so that engine power optimization takes place at much reduced direct operating costs. Thus, the marine gas-turbine will become a reality only after the Kaveri turbofan for aircraft application is optimized. Civilian tuirbofan derivatives will then also be able to flow from this military turbofan.
To AJ: It is wrong to equate covert activities with covert operations. The latter involes mostly kinetic activities like hot-pursuit missions. The former was never terminated by either PVNR or I K Gujral. Only the latter was.
To PIERRE ZORIN: LoLz! Such imbeciles tend to suffer from bipolar dirorder & wild mood-swings that result in such creatures changing their colkours as often as a chameleon.
To SS: The writer of that analysis simply fails to take into account the dismal state of the PAF in terms of aircraft availability & the PAF’s dwindling fleet of combat aircraft. Just witness the PAF’s desperation to acquire just six Block 52 F-16Ds & 2 F-16Cs. Furthermore, future wars won’t be all-out conflicts to be fought in a linear fashion. Instead, the model to be followed ought to be how OP Safed Sagar was conducted in 1999 in support of OP VIJAY & therefore the PAF’s role/inactivity during that period should be analysed & used as the model for estimating the PAF’s future air warfare capacity.
To BIRBAL: The theory is not challenging to absorb at all, since industrial patents are available in the open domain for learning all about it. It is the practical process that consuming both money & time. And no one in the world will engage in spoon-feeding & industrially helping India to achieve this feat. It is just like the issue of source-codes for MMRs. The source-code is essentially a crypto-key (set of digits) that enables one to navigate through the embedded encrypted operating software (containing various types of algorithmns for different modes of operation) of the MMR’s programmable signals processor (PSP), thereby giving one the ability to either replicate it or modify it or even sabotage it. It is for the last reason that no MMR OEM without exception will ever compromise its source codes by sharinbg them.
To BHOUTIK: It is only a matter of time before the Chinese too are targetted, as they have been in Pakistan for the past 14 years & more recently in places like Bangkok.
To RON: As I have explained several times before, such exercises are not competitive in nature (pitting one air force against another) at all. Instead, the objective is to devise a set of standard common operating procedures so that combined air operations can be undertaken in a seamless manner. Therefore, exercise scenarios played out involve one party performing the air superiority role while the other performs deep-strike or tactical interdiction roles with mixed aircraft fleets. In other words, mission responsibilities are jointly fixed, & one party does not do the thinking for the other.
Prasun K. Sengupta said..
" It is the practical process that consuming both money & time."
So, the Govt of India has to FIRST Invest and build a Industry for Aero-engines in the country.. Do you see the present Govt of India taking some CONCRETE measures for that in terms of Finance and environment?? Last heard China had made a investment around 40 billion US$ for that purpose...
When can we expect to see some results in the direction of a HIGH-TECH Aeroengine??
Can SAFRAN help in FAST-Forwarding the results if money is put into it??
Good night Prasunda..
PrasunDa,
1. Is it true that there are no rules and doctrines defining Hindu?
2. Has the Chief cleric of Mecca or the Saudi King ever condemned radical Islam? I wonder how Islam manages to produce so many radical preachers, more than any other religion.
Thank You
Prasun da,
so India is taking care of it's friends?
http://www.khaama.com/top-afghan-jihadi-leader-syed-hussain-anwari-dies-from-cancer-in-india-01420
To BLACKURRANT: Of course. As the song goes, Yaari hai imaaan mera, yaar meri zindagi.
To SUJOY MAJUMDAR: 1) Had already explained that a few times before, i.e. the over-arching code of conduct is the DHARMA Code, which is exhaustively explained in the Bhagwad Gita. 2) Nope. Because there's no over-arching definition of radical Islam. And there should not be as well. Islam is Islam. Everything else, like Wahhabism or Salafist teachings are all distortions & deviationist.
To BIRBAL: Some initial baby-steps have been taken. For instance the policy regarding the existing ghost airports. Watch this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhEBvpdQE4Q
Such airports should be hosting regional 30-seat twin turbofan-powered regional STOL jetliners like the An-148 or Do-328. If this market segment can be dramatically expanded, then there will emerge a market for turbofans like the HTFE-25 that HAL is now developing. Worldwide, engine OEMs make money & profits through sale of commercial turbofans, not military turbofans.
To RON: It's almost impossible to know about suicide attacks. The only option is pre-emption & prevention through forestalling tactics & interception. Querstion of nuclear armageddon in South Asia doesn't even arise since at that time both India & Pakistan had not completed the establishment of their respective survivable nuclear command & control facilities. Therefore, neither country was willing to engage in any kind of nuclear sabre-rattling.
Chinese Y-20 has been unveiled. Is it operational though or merely LSPs. Looks like IL-76 / 78 to me, assuming it IS being a copy of such.
Hi Prasun, I just the recent article in The Diplomat re the New Chinese MBT:
http://thediplomat.com/2016/07/china-reveals-new-main-battle-tank/
I think all of us on this forum would appreciate your commentary on this tank and challenge it poses to our Arjun MBT. Look forward to your POV.
Thanks & Regards;
Brown Desi
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