The exercises currently underway are being staged out of the PLAGF Training Base located at Lhari (30 38 18.28 N, 93 13 50.60 E) and the live-firing range is to the south of the Nyenchen Tanglha mountain range north of Arunachal
Pradesh (30 35 42.88 N, 93 20 56.81 E).
The participating Z-10 attack helicopters and Mi-17V-5 utility helicopters are operating out of Nyingchi Heli Base (29 33 39.99 N, 94 28 15.67 E).
And here are the video-clips of the on-going exercises:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_YS8Kfd_Fs
Meanwhile, the Indian Navy's
P-8I LRMR/ASW platforms have since June 20 been keeping track of a build-up of
PLA-BDR and PLAGF forces along eastern Himachal Pradesh in the areas shown
below.
24 comments:
Prasun Da, is this excercise defensive a nature ? I.e. to defend TAR from the enemy attack, and mount limited kinetic operation in enemy territory ? The PLA has the advantage of testing the MGS in battle scenario. IMHO, there's no need to MoD getting soft with striking employees of OFB, they should be sacked ASAP,and place under new corporate management, tasked with the shortest possible time frame to come up with the test firing prototype .
Thanks Dada for new thread.
ANSWERS to Previous Questions:
To SUMANTA NAG: VMT. There were several judgmental mistakes made between 1947 & 1950 (some of which I have explained above) & again in the 1950s & 1060s. But instead of correcting those mistakes, successive govts in India have carried on with them instead of reversing them. I will explain in detail all of them in the next thread, starting with the enunciation of the FORWARD POLICY & how that influenced the battles of Ladakh in 1962 as well as the aftermath, so that everyone gets a clear understanding of what are Patrolling Points (PP) are all about, how they were formulated & what is their importance even today. This is because there’s a lot of prevailing confusion among many in India WRT the LAC being just a claim-line or a notional perception, which they are not. In fact, the PPs constitute exactly those places where the IA’s forward posts were located & where IA soldiers died fighting to the last man & were also cremated in such places after the battles. Therefore, to now claim that the PPs are mere perceptions or overlapping between 2 countries is to dishonour India’s martyrs. Unfortunately, the majority of India’s urban elite are a self-centred & inconsiderate lot & that’s because all of India’s past wars have been limited only to the borders & have never caused the kind of havoc that the likes of WW-2 & Vietnam War have. Hence, in countries in North America, Russia, Europe & Vietnam where almost every family has had a war-casualty, the citizens of those countries, unlike most Indian citizens take their territoriality very seriously. Hence, even in this latest case, a couple of posthumous awards & financial compensations will be announced soon & all this will be forgotten & the upcoming state elections in states like Bihar will become centrestage. Small wonder that while back in 1999 the IA’s Sub-Sector North was renamed as Sub-Sector Haneefuddin, today everyone in the TV channels is back to referring to that area as Sub-Sector North!!! B) They were all fast-forwarded since 2014 itself, but the tyranny of the terrain poses formidable engineering challenges. C & D) Even if that were to happen, series-production cannot be ramped up because it takes a long time for skilled human resources to acquire the reqd degree of work proficiency. R) That will NEVER happen, as explained here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhcriqYAu-E F) It will hurt both parties, since after-sales service from China-based OEMs will no longer be available for the hardware already in use. G) That was in northeast Sikkim in the Jelep La area back in 2016.
To BENO: 1) If the minimum of six prototypes are available for user-trials, then such trials will last for at least 2 years. 2) Only for urgently-reqd items like various types of imported ammunition. 3) Surprise cannot be achieved & hence the so-called Cold Start Doctrine too cannot be implemented with the kind of ease that is often claimed.
To ASD: 1) So if Finger-8 at Panggong Tso Lake isn’t Indian territory then why did the IA establish 3 forward posts 6km to the east of Finger-8 in 1960 & why was Maj Shaitan Singh & his Platoon martyred there? Why had IA foot-patrols gone up to Finger-8 until last April? If it was not Indian territory, was it China’s territory & consequently has India been intruding into Chinese territory since 1960? Or were they invited by the PLA to partake in a picnic??? 2 & 4) Everything is fair in war, according to every available treatise on warfare, be it Chinese or Indian. 5) I had already explained it before, i.e. do a counter-occupation of some piece of real-estate in TAR & then negotiate a territorial swap. 6) In darkness at night & at extremely close-quarters, opening fire by any party would have led to far more deaths & that too blue-on-blue engagements. 7) Everyone knows the self-righteous & revisionist mindsets of the self-centred Communist Chinese. That’s why no one worldwide is mourning the deaths of the PLA soldiers while everyone is sending condolence messages to India. That’s the main difference.
To DASHU: And if the PIB is now saying that the PM’s remarks have been misinterpreted, then can the PIB explain what & where has the misinterpretation been & what is the correct interpretation? Regretably, such clarifications will never be forthcoming.
To ARPIT KANODIA: Yes indeed, the PLA-BDR personnel have been exposed as an indisciplined peasant army with whom no one in the world is sympathising. In terms of success or failure of the overall campaign, the PLA being one of the instrumentalities for use by Beijing, has so far succeeded in its assigned taskings & the final verdict will only emerge after it becomes known whether or not the deployed PLA formations are in their present locations for the good, or if they withdraw back to their original locations. After all, if the idea was to spring a military surprise, then all the deployed mechanised & artillery assets would have been well-hidden under camouflage, but since they are in full view of almost every available overhead recce satellite or UAV, it means the PLA wants to show the whole world its deployment pattern & location. As for the Galwan River-Valley & Finger-4, it is all about the PLA denying the depth to the IA for manoeuvre & changing Ladkah existing geography into an elongated one that will enormously complicate the IA’s North-South lines of land communication.
To BRADSHAW: 1) Yes, the casualties were accepted by China’s MOFA yesterday & it there on its website. 2) Yes, and once you reqd the battle accounts of Galwan River-Valley in 1962 that I will upload in the next thread, you will get to know both the background & the present status. 3) They can be useful only if they are not countered by SHORASDS or VSHORADS. 4) They have been & continue to be targetted. But no one is reported them because everyone is now fixated on Ladakh. 5) The US is already sharing intelligence inputs with India, but it will be Russia that will prevail upon China to back off.
To PRAJJWAL DALAL: VMT. 1) That will depend on whether or not the PLA withdraws back to where its units came from, or whether the PLA permanently settles down in the River-Valley. 2) Yes it can, if the IA does a counter-occupation of territory somewhere in TAR & then starts negotiating a territorial swap. 3) Yes, I am a licenced A (airframe) & E (electronics) Engineer. 4) Books don’t influence electoral mindsets, the state of the economy does.
To DASHU: There were FAR BIGGER judgmental errors made. For instance, while colonial British & even the Princely State of J & K showed the territory of J & K’s northern frontier being the Kun Lun mountain range, why did India bring the frontier down further south to the Karakoram Range in 1950? Why did the IA not go back to its forward posts that were overrun in October-November 1962 after the war had ended & the PLA had withdrawn from the contact areas? Why were the patrolling points permanently manned just like they were between 1959 & November 1962? Why have successive Govts of India not permitted such post mannings after 1962? Why were the 3 forward posts of Sirijap-1/2/3 that lie another 6km to the east of Finger-8 not remanned after 1962? Is this the way the nation honours those fallen warriors who fought to the last man at such posts? Why are such posts referred to as mere patrolling points or claim-lines that are visited by the IA only in a seasonal manner? To many questions that increase the quantum of bitter bills to be digested, I’m afraid.
To ASHISH GAUTAM: Idhar app ko LAC ki padhi hui hai aur udhar WB se daily shuttle services UAVs chal rahi hai aur M-4 carbines aur uske goli lagaataar ghus raha hai:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSqfr5RStSo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EC8KJYjS_gM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4fWa7SFt5Y
Iske baawaajood aap kehte ho ki JeM ki suicide IED explosions ka iraada sirf dhakoslaa hai aur samai ki barbaadi hai.
To SENTHIL KUMAR: Iran’s Chabahar Port exempted from US sanctions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrrFPqSQkCc
To GANESH: Do watch these:
Lt Gen K J Singh: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=La0qngJWls0
Lt Gen Arun Sahni: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6589rl-mTHQ
Lt Gen D B Shekatkar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPh_rRtVL2o
Lt Gen Sanjay Kulkarni: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEpXtmgTBuQ&t=26s
To VED: Yes, the new MiG-29s will all be of UPG standard. No, Astra Mk.1 as f now is only for the Su-30MKIs but eventually the Tejas Mk.1s, Tejas Mk.1As & MiG-29UPGs will have them as well. Beijing will make sure that war does not break out, just like it did during the Doklam standoff & all previous standoffs.
To VSJ: 1) From Pathankot & Himachal Pradesh. 2) Possible. 3) Had explained it all in the EX Gagan Shakti-2018 thread. 4) Excalibur can be fired from any 155mm barrel. There’s no need for AASM since the SCALP ALCM offers much greater capabilities.
Dear Prasun da,
I retracted my comment on PM message after clarification.
Do you think It would have be wiser decision to buy more Rafales than ordering MIg 29 & SU-30. ?
Warm Regards,
Pawan
Prasunda,
1) The PRC MoFA site only appears to have the daily briefings where they admitted casualties. The number/list was not given as far as I can see. Is this correct ?
2) When you say Russia will prevail on PRC to back down, do you mean that they will prevail on PRC to leave the F4-F8 region as well ?
Satyaki
Dear Prasun,
Thanks for your very insightful ideas and we all are grateful to you. I have a query that if PoK is captured by India, then all the billion dollars investment in that region by China will be write-off. Will China accept it by maintaining silence. I feel the capture will lead to two front war for India.
1. So question is that....the bombastic words of EAM Jaishankar about capturing of PoK and Gilgit Baltistan is just hoax or will be reality.
2. Of course India has historical flaw in dealing with border row with China. But China is too righteous; everytime they too have changed their perception that's what I understood from your explanation. India can have a strong hand against it, if the political leadership have commonsense and will power.
Please share your views
Prasun Sir what is the infrastructure of India and China along LAC , it was neglected by the government for years , I think some progress was made recently. How can we turn these mountaibs into our favour . unlike Chinese Side Indian side is much more challenging terrain , I fear the so called advantage is with Chinese , IA need to travel through various choke points that may be fatal if attacked by Chinese . And Chinese have Artillery in the range upto 300Km .Can we build Various kind of Tunnels all across the LAC to hide our Weapons and shoot & Scoot ops . I believe we can use some of these tunnel facilities as tourist destinations so that in future we will get some buks also
Dear Prasun,
I am not the one to look for conspiracies but when it comes to China, i feel uneasy.
How many Moron Mantris, Sarkaari Baboos, Army officers could have been ensnared by the funds that are being doled out for quite some time all across the globe by the Chinese? Does Indian agencies have any clue or they completely rely on their western masters to think for them?
The inept mantris sitting over mantralayas with underperforming/incapable sarkaari baboos are not supposed to be winners. This Indian tradition is many decades long and still going on.
As far as the Indian elite is concerned, they are mostly Indians by skin color otherwise they are the Macauley product who always want to serve the ones who rule them...be it the Persians, Turks, Afghans, British...or even the Chinese. They just want to flourish and live a self-centered life of vanity and delusion.
Hi,
You said "Yes, the casualties were accepted by China’s MOFA yesterday & it there on its website". I am not able to locate or find any such article. Can u please help me with a link to this news.
Thanks for your superb insights on the LAC situation. The information and analysis has been eye-opening.
What do you think of this idiot's reportage of the clash around PP14;
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/3-separate-brawls-outsider-chinese-troops-more-most-detailed-account-of-the-brutal-june-15-galwan-battle-1691185-2020-06-21
1. Although it would be great if it was the case, is this likely to be a true account - seems implausible given the accounts that have come out upto now and could possibly be desperate face-saving efforts of Govt (considering the reporter in question)
2. How much credibility would you give to Gen VK Singhs assertions and opinions
3. If its simply deliberate misinformation, does it have any value in terms of propaganda/information war against the other side or is it purely meant for domestic consumption
Prasunda,
When even Poland airforce is going to scrap MiG 29 , we are buying it !
It's better to negotiate with Japan and buy their F 15s.
Best regards,
Have Indian PM and CDS understood why and how chinese are ingressing in the LAC strategically and tactically..
His last speech was disgusting and criminal negligence the utter sacrifice of the soldiers..
When we such bullshit leaders PlA may in near future capture all five fingers of Tibetian Palm.
Extremely hurt at his all party meeting speech.
Namaste Prasun da,
What Role/impact can the 4Rafale Have on the ongoing stand-off And in a hypothetical limited high-intensity war.
Thank you ,Vishnu
Hello sir.
1)Out of all the Chinese controlled areas(whether in Aksai Chin or in Tibet or Xinjiang),which areas satisfy the following 2 criterion(apart from the Jelep La sector)? a)high strategic value and b)good chance of being captured by India?
2)I have heard you say before that India has an advantage in the Chumbi Valley sector(in Yadong county of Tibet).How valuable would Chumbi Valley be strategically?
3)This is a hypothetical question.What if India captures Burang County of Tibet(in which Kailash-Mansarovar are situated)and gives China an offer to keep Aksai Chin permanently.Would China agree to that?China will get to keep Aksai Chin and it will be happy and India will get Kailash-Mansarovar(much more significant than desolate Aksai Chin) and be happy as well.
4)This will probably not happen but would it be a good idea for India to punish China by punishing its sidekick Pakistan instead by launching an offensive into Gilgit-Baltistan and capturing it?The Pakistanis are not expecting India to launch an offensive into GB so we will have the element of surprise.India's military balance against Pakistan is better compared to its balance against China.And the capture of Gilgit-Baltistan will mean that Pakistan and China no longer have a border and this itself will be a setback for China.So is it a good idea?
To PAWAN: The PM’s statement raised more questions than containing definitive answers. Rafales will take a longer time to arrive if ordered today, whereas the MiG-29UPGs & Su-30MKIs will arrive within 18 months.
To SATYAKI: The numbers & identified personnel names wre given out by the PLA’s WTC. The Chinese MoFA only admitted that there were casualties suffered by the PLA. Russia can prevail in terms of reducing overall tensions by persuading China to withdraw from the Galwan River-Valley, Gogra/Hot Springs & near the Depsang Plains. But the territory east of Finger-4 is likely to be held on to by China because India never really had a permanent post there & if China has already established a permanent presence there, then India’s case for getting the PLA to withdraw from there becomes almost impossible. The only option then becomes a counter-occupation of some other piece of land inside TAR, or conducting an artillery fire-assault in the area between Fingers 4 & 8 in such a manner that the entire area resembles the Moon’s pockmarked surface.
To ASD: 1) Not necessarily. How will Pakistan’s loss of Gilgit Baltistan result in the loss of China’s investments in Gwadar Port? The bulk of China’s investments as of now are only in the power-generation & ports development sectors. There’s hardly any investment in Gilgit Baltistan as of now. 2) Not righteous, but self-righteous.
To ANOOP MADHAVAN: India too has missiles & rockets capable of going much beyond & up to 750km & hence China does not have any asymmetrical military edge over India either in terms of firepower or numbers.
To BLACK_RAVEN: I have explained in the following thread all the judgmental errors committed in the past & today’s situation is the sum of all those past errors.
To BRADSHAW: Here it is: http://m.xinhuanet.com/mil/2020-06/20/c_1210669255.htm
To KIDDO: A definitive account will be hard top come by so soon, but in my view the presence of a mere observation tower or tent in the area of the faceoff was no reason for such mortal combat. Those temporary structures could well have been demolished after the PLA units fully withdrew, or the IA could have taken photos of those structures & showed them at the next meeting of senior officials from both armies as proof of China’s insincerity. Therefore, exercising of restraint & being discerning does not tantamount to cowardice. And at the end of the day, none of the two parties won & both suffered casualties & there’s no guarantee that the PLA won’t ever return to that area to erect some other structure there.
However, what Gen V K Singh exposed was the lie being peddled around about the PLA occupying the dominating heights around PP-14. For, if the PLA indeed was sitting on top of the surrounding hills, then why would the PLA feel the need for erecting a separate observation tower at the base of the hills?
To PARTHASARATHI: Do Japan’s F-15s & Poland’s MiG-29Bs have fly-by-wire flight-control systems? Do they have new-generation EW suites for self-protection? If not, then they are inferior to the MiG-29UPG.
To ARUN: 1) There are several all along the LAC. 2) When trying to occupy land, it is always better to focus on capturing dominating heights & not the valleys below since the latter can easily be targetted from dominating heights. Hence, Chumbi Valley is a target for being attacked but not worthwhile to conquer. 3 & 4) Not possible, since the existing logistics-support assets of both the IA and IAF cannot support such campaigns, as I had explained the limitation in the threat dealing high-altitude plateau warfare.
OMG mig 29uph has FBW control..I mean that's huge...btw now its
performance improved from old iaf version or degraded??
Thanks for sharing.
To AMIT BISWAS: Do read this:
http://trishulgroup.blogspot.com/2009/11/iafs-mig-29upg-upgrade-package-detailed.html
hi prasun
i was pleasantly surprised that the mig 29 was mordernised into a FBW fighter , i some how missed it all these years in the assumption that a fighter built for stable flight was impossible to convert into a FBW fighter as the center of lift is way ahead of the center of mass in a fbw fighter . now how does one do that without major re design of the airframe or some ballast added to the rear to have a pitch up tendency?
i would now opine that the mig 29 is superior to the f-16 in agility and rate of turn as the mig had envious turn rate even without the FBW.? and now it would have a care free handling capacity that woyuld transalte into better dog fighteing capability??
There are a number of articles on the internet that India imported the r-27 missile aswell giventhe fact it had a dismall kill probability , is it true?
I heard thet the IIR version was much better?
Do you think the china will do something to redress the outcome in the the face of the world.?
https://twitter.com/Zoya_nafidi/status/1275085745762566146?s=20
Which system is this??
Barak-8 MR-SAM of the IAF.
Prasun, when did Barak-8 MR SAM deliveries start?
How will such long trailer of MR SAM negotiate roads in mountain region of uttarkhand, arunachal, ladakh, sikkim and himachal ..matlab itna bada karne se acha tha 2* tartra 8*8 formation me use karne ka
prasun,
1- has the qrsam been operationlized in ladakh region?
2- is there a separate project for VL-astra as replacement of barak 1 on IN ships & for both IAF & IA? if yes, how is it diff from qrsam
3- what defence projects will be expedited post this skrimish? or will this again be forgotten like doklam till the next one happens..eg -- immediate need for the likes of whap type vehicles..
4- now that both sides are back to discussing.. will gilgit baltistan/karakoram tract be discussed? else we are living in a fools paradise
5- china claiming nepalese villages.. first it was mt everest now this.. will the idiotic oli realize his folly. how true are the reports of protests aganist his govt in nepal
6- Russia washing its hands off this conflict.. signs of things to come ?are they angry with the delaying tactics of the Indians on signing defence deals. why is the Ka226T such a hot potato.. the value of the deal is just $1bln.. we waste so much more every year(mismanagement, corruption, ill planning/no planning, bureaucratic delays etc) and nobody bats an eyelid.. why this??
7- read somewhere that India is digging out old maps for the discussions ... any details you cud share.. whats been included/ considered and whats left out?
8- India downgrading diplomatic engagement with pakis .. why were the paki diplomats not punished before throwing them out..has India raised the issue of diplomatic staff being manhandled recently by the ISI with the UN or any other international org.. Can this be highlighted @the FATF
9- What concessions can be extracted from the chinese on blacklisting of pakistan in FATF
10- why does India aspire to be a UN permanent member.. what will it gain apart from veto power, countries anyways do what they want ...
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