you had sometime back mentioned that India has virtually shelved TBM programmes like Prahar, Pralaya and Pratighat for the time being since India has decided not to field TNWs. Our Pinaka rocket force has a maximum range of 90-100 km. On the other hand, PLA has deployed artillery like PHL-16 or Type PCL-191 which can carry different types of ammunition and target a range varying from 70km to 360km. So how does Indian army propose to cover that space from 100km to 360km ? As it is, China has deployed fully integrated air defence with little loopholes, so it won't be advisable to use air force and PGMs in the intial stage. How shall we destroy their artillery and air defence batteries in the range from 100 to 360km ? I had heard a wise man saying that it is the artillery that wins you 80% of the war and in that we are not matching up with China.
What can be drawn from the deployment of PLAGF? Can you please conclude? I'm not getting anything. Is it like they are not ready for war since light mechanised force is deployed or fall heavily on IA?
1) How many t-72s have been upgraded to CIA standard as of now? You mentioned in 2011 that 692 had by then be upgraded. How have things progressed since?
2) Of the t-90 tanks in the IA only the first 310 were t-90S variants, while rest since were t-90M variants right?
3) So does the IA name 'bhishma' stand for the S or the M variant?
4) When will the 464 T-90MS variants, ordered in 2019 start arriving?
5) Pardon me for asking this oft repeated question, the t-90 production as currently stands is
310 T-90S variants ordered from russia in 2001, 347 T-90M variants ordered from russia in 2007 and 1000 T-90M license built from HVF, Avadi. Is that accurate?
6) Will the 464 T-90MS variants be in addition to these 1657 tanks or included in the 1000 to be license built?
7) Considering current APFSDS rounds in IA have penetration of just 500mmRHA, will it be sufficient to deal with Pak armour? Especially those with ERA?
8) Is the electronic warfare systems with the IA like himshakti and IEWS-MT enough to fight china? Many analysts give Chinese EW systems the edge.
Sir, we might need to detect them first & then acquire targets with reasonable accuracy. Hitting them might be much easier. Ofcourse the weapons would help but alternatives already exist which are far more accurate
To ASD: What China is doing is just throwing up tantrums. Sooner than later such tantrums will run out of steam & fatigue will set in, just like it had set in in the north bank of Panggong Tso Lake.
To ZEESHAN: 1) What is there to retaliate against? Those were surplus pre-owned tankers pasted with stickers of the previous owner. The new Indian owner has every right to stick its stickers on such tankers. It is a universal practice. 2) Do you really think that China is stupid enough to leave its IB with Afghanistan’s Wakhan Corridor undefended & unfenced? 3) Of course shots were fired. Both Ukraine-origin cruise missiles & homegrown UAVs were flown from Iran to those refineries. That’s why India is investing in homegrown QR-SAMs, SR-SAMs & SL-QRMs like Akash-NG.
To PM: It is all true. If at all the colonial Brits wanted to transfer power, then they should have transferred it to the Provisional Govt of Azad Hind, which was recognised as a legitimate entity by 11 countries worldwide, including the USSR. In fact, the Azad Hind Govt even had an Embassy at Irkutsk in Siberia & that’s exactly where Subhas Chandra Bose had headed for. From today’s Hanoi he had flown to today’s Taipei & from there he had flown to today’s Harbin in northern China & from there to today’s Shenyang & from there to today’s Dalian & from there to Magadan inside the USSR & from there to Irkutsk. And in 1946 Lord Mountbatten dispatched Pandit Nehru to Singapore to take possession of the captured Treasury of the Azad Hind Govt. Whatever happened to this Treasury remains a mystery till this day.
To GAGANDEEP: What I had stated was that until 2011 India had not decided to acquire TNWs despite 4 of the 6 warheads being tested in May 1998 being tactical nuclear warheads. That’s why the Prahar was test-fired only 10 years ago, despite the missile being under design since 1996! Prahar is NOT a TBM & is like the SS-150 Prithvi SS-BSM, meaning the solid-propellant sustainer rocket stays ignited all the way to the terminal stage, whereas in case of TBMs the sustainer rocket remains active only till the post-boost phase & gets inactivated & separated after atmospheric re-entry, leaving the warhead to glide back while the forces of natural gravity are at play. You yourself can try it by hurling (not throwing) a piece of chalk or any other solid object upwards with your hand & see how it comes down in a downward parabolic trajectory on its own. But SS-BSMs like Prithvi/Prahar don’t work like that & are powered all-the-way to their destination so that they can be manoeuvred inflight or can fly a depressed horizontal trajectory after gaining the desired altitude. And the public display of the TATA-made Prahar at DEFEXPO-2020 was proof of its series-production.
I had also explained earlier why the PLAGF is over-reliant on ground-based tube/rocket artillery, i.e. the PLAAF’s utter lack of advanced tactical interdiction & deep-strike combat aircraft. It must be noted that for the past 20 years the PLAAF has not service-inducted a single fourth-generation dedicated tactical interdictor aircraft (after retiring its Nanchang Q-5s) & a dedicated deep-strike aircraft & so the JH-7A till this day cannot fly at low-levels, leave alone terrain-hugging flight profiles. This has been due to various limitations, including technology embargoes placed by the West after May 1988. Consequently, to make up for such capability gaps, the PLAGF has resorted to the usage of TBMs & MBRLs as tactical-strike/deep-strike weapons. But India does not suffer from such handicaps & therefore has easy access to sensor-fuzed sub-munitions & millimetre-wave W-band seekers (which are also homegrown). Such sensor-fuzed sub-munitions will be on-board both the surface-launched Pralay SS-BSM & the HAL-developed subsonic air-launched Combat Air Teaming System (CATS), with the latter being powered by the GTRE-developed STFE. If a shorter-range version of the Pralay can be developed as an air-launched missile, then such a weapon can easily be launched by all IAF MRCAs. Similarly, a shorter-range air-launched version of Prahar containing sensor-fuzed sub-munitions can be air-launched by Hawk Mk.132 AJTs, since such AJTs are best employed over mountainous terrain & can fly terrain-masking flight-profiles for evading hostile air-defence networks. Hence, both air-launched & ground-launched rocket artillery solutions are available for use against massed PLAGF armoured/mechanised deployments & tube/rocket artillery deployments.
This was to be expected & most probably this type of hexacopter was used:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOqWUHIkZEM
Just a month ago, the IB had reported that the Pakistan Rangers had established a drone control centre bang opposite the BSF OP in Samba in the Chic ken’s Neck area. Another such centre has been operational for a long time opposite Kathua. Now, it remains to be seen if India will hold Pakistan to account for this blatant act of war (by violating Indian airspace across ther WB), or will just look the other way around.
Back in December 1971 the entire Chicken’s Neck area was captured within 24 hours by the IA’s 26 Infantry Division led by its GOC Maj Gen Zorawar Chand Bakshi. But the then PMO & its ‘Panj Pyare’ had other plans that were not shared with IA HQ at that time, i.e. it had already been decided by the then PMO that India will return all territories captured across the IB, while only those territories captured along the LoC by either side will be kept for good. We now are paying the price of such follies!!!
'will just look the other way around' -- this will be the most probable OPTION for India. how come ‘Panj Pyare’ never nominated for/given Bharat Ratna for their wonderful service to the nation?
BTW what India did through Balakot, they did through this cheap drone, now who is smart? Now let's see what would be GoI/IAF's rant as Rafal is already inducted. Am interested to hear the new excuse. the easy and most probable one would be theatre command is not yet ready, not ready for 2 front war and not ready to do offensive-defence due to ccp factor, etc.
Is it presumptuous of me to think this drone attack was done precisely to incite Indian reaction so it will take PAK populace mind of the recent events regarding rumour of plans to assassinate Bajwa, FFATF and trouble in NWFP etc...
Prasunda, Two Drones came from Pakistan and dropped bombs and went away! We did nothing. We are still not aware what hit us ! If drone from terrorists can penetrate our air defence then it's anyone's guess what stealthy drones of our unfriendly nations can do ! We haven't learned anything from Armenia and Azarbaijan war !
1. was the drone attack was in retaliation for Lahore or so-called peace talk sabotaging act or a message against de-elimination process.
2. why is that IAF bases aren't equipped with anti UAV system, when its easily available with Tonbo systems? r we waiting for DRDO system?? i've seen PAK bases with infrared surveillance systems of range of 5km in a tweet. do we have such system in place or the process is initiated only after galwan clashes?
To PRAKSH, PM, PARTHASARATHI & YOGESH: The following thread will provide you with some pointers.
To DASHU: Oh, they were indeed rewarded not through ceremonial awards, but their children with nominations by both Indira Gandhi & Rajiv Gandhi for securing commodity-supply contracts awarded by the State Trading Corporation throughout the 1980s for supplying the USSR with such commodities. It is now all a matter of record since it all has been explained in great detail by ZEE MediasGroup founder Subhash Chandra in his memoir THE Z FACTOR. In fact, one of the beneficiaries was even present at the PM’s Residence during the launch of this book, just like ‘Mehul Bhai’ was present at another function at the PM’s Official Residence back in 2015.
To SARATHI: Every soft-kill or hard-kill air-defence system must have 2 essential elements: a target acquisition/tracking system & its related fire-control mechanism; and the hard-kill weapon. Since such drones don’t make too much noise, they cannot be acquired by TV-based sensors. Consequently, only radar-based & IIR-based sensors can detect & track them out to a distance of 20km. Then, when such drones are 5km away they can easily be shot down by a laser effector. Can such a combination be developed in India? Of course. Just develop a lightweight variant of the ‘Uttam’ AESA-MMR with far fewer T/R modules & use it for target detection/tracking, while cost-effective laser effectors that the DRDO has already developed for IED neutralisation can easily be modified for use as surface-to-air directed-energy weapon. Alternatively, passive IRST sensors like the ones developed by TONBO can be used for target detection/tracking.
I read that Azad Hind Govt had an embassy in Omsk in the Soviet Union and not at Irkutsk as u say. Kindly elaborate on this. Anxiously waiting for your reply. Thank in advance.
I read that Azad Hind Govt had an embassy in Omsk in the Soviet Union and not in Irkutsk as said by you above. Kindly elaborate on this. Anxiously waiting for your reply. Thanks in advance.
Lot of articles in the public domain write about Omsk as the embassy for Azad Hind but no mention of Irkutsk anywhere to my knowledge. I value your opinion highly. Kindly shed some more light on this very intriguing case.
To PUNEET: There are many conflicting accounts about Omsk, Irkutsk & yakutz, like these:
Though he landed in Dairen in Manchuria (now Dallian in China) Bose's plan was to go to Omsk in Siberia. During the War, a large part of the Soviet administration had shifted to Omsk because it was away from the German borders. Bose had himself sent his representative Kato Kochu (an assumed name of an Indian whose identity is yet to be established) to set up a mission of the Provisional government of Azad Hind.
Back in 2005 during a visit to Irkutsk the local administration officials showed me the villa that had served as the Diplomatic Mission of the Provisional Govt of Azad Hind.
30 comments:
Updates on PA’s Failed Coup: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3lwIoq6rk8
LeT in Afghanistan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BF812ge6Ks
Pakistan Retained in FATF Grey-List: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPn3UuVnOVY
LOVER-BOY FROM Bahawalpur: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbB7Xx0r1nA&t=2s
Sir, you have not watermarked these pics, are these pics dependable then?
To DASHU: Yes, they are & are related to the locational coordinates pasted on the first slide.
Prasun Da
you had sometime back mentioned that India has virtually shelved TBM programmes like Prahar, Pralaya and Pratighat for the time being since India has decided not to field TNWs. Our Pinaka rocket force has a maximum range of 90-100 km. On the other hand, PLA has deployed artillery like PHL-16 or Type PCL-191 which can carry different types of ammunition and target a range varying from 70km to 360km. So how does Indian army propose to cover that space from 100km to 360km ? As it is, China has deployed fully integrated air defence with little loopholes, so it won't be advisable to use air force and PGMs in the intial stage. How shall we destroy their artillery and air defence batteries in the range from 100 to 360km ? I had heard a wise man saying that it is the artillery that wins you 80% of the war and in that we are not matching up with China.
Dear Prasun,
What can be drawn from the deployment of PLAGF? Can you please conclude? I'm not getting anything. Is it like they are not ready for war since light mechanised force is deployed or fall heavily on IA?
1)Will Saudis retaliate?
https://twitter.com/mohsinsheikh_/status/1390665684716122130
2)Is USA going to pay Taliban to launch raids in Xinjiang?
3)Iran took out Saudi's oil refinery without firing a shot. China can repeat this in India. Why is no one covering this?
Excuse my mistake. There is no missile like Pratighat. I meant Prahaar, Pragati, Pranash and Pralay
https://youtu.be/Ipzh8SHZ9S0 sir what is your opininion on this?
When do u think will the 3rd world war happen?
Will india be ready by then?
Our biggest challenge is lack of artillery? When will that deficiency be over?
Will modiji and india be able to capture and retain pok? How?
Will indian air force buy more rafales?
Thanks for previous replies sir.
1) How many t-72s have been upgraded to CIA standard as of now? You mentioned in 2011 that 692 had by then be upgraded. How have things progressed since?
2) Of the t-90 tanks in the IA only the first 310 were t-90S variants, while rest since were t-90M variants right?
3) So does the IA name 'bhishma' stand for the S or the M variant?
4) When will the 464 T-90MS variants, ordered in 2019 start arriving?
5) Pardon me for asking this oft repeated question, the t-90 production as currently stands is
310 T-90S variants ordered from russia in 2001,
347 T-90M variants ordered from russia in 2007 and
1000 T-90M license built from HVF, Avadi. Is that accurate?
6) Will the 464 T-90MS variants be in addition to these 1657 tanks or included in the 1000 to be license built?
7) Considering current APFSDS rounds in IA have penetration of just 500mmRHA, will it be sufficient to deal with Pak armour? Especially those with ERA?
8) Is the electronic warfare systems with the IA like himshakti and IEWS-MT enough to fight china? Many analysts give Chinese EW systems the edge.
😆😆😆😆😆 paranoid stupid moos
Sir, we might need to detect them first & then acquire targets with reasonable accuracy. Hitting them might be much easier. Ofcourse the weapons would help but alternatives already exist which are far more accurate
To ASD: What China is doing is just throwing up tantrums. Sooner than later such tantrums will run out of steam & fatigue will set in, just like it had set in in the north bank of Panggong Tso Lake.
To ZEESHAN: 1) What is there to retaliate against? Those were surplus pre-owned tankers pasted with stickers of the previous owner. The new Indian owner has every right to stick its stickers on such tankers. It is a universal practice. 2) Do you really think that China is stupid enough to leave its IB with Afghanistan’s Wakhan Corridor undefended & unfenced? 3) Of course shots were fired. Both Ukraine-origin cruise missiles & homegrown UAVs were flown from Iran to those refineries. That’s why India is investing in homegrown QR-SAMs, SR-SAMs & SL-QRMs like Akash-NG.
To PM: It is all true. If at all the colonial Brits wanted to transfer power, then they should have transferred it to the Provisional Govt of Azad Hind, which was recognised as a legitimate entity by 11 countries worldwide, including the USSR. In fact, the Azad Hind Govt even had an Embassy at Irkutsk in Siberia & that’s exactly where Subhas Chandra Bose had headed for. From today’s Hanoi he had flown to today’s Taipei & from there he had flown to today’s Harbin in northern China & from there to today’s Shenyang & from there to today’s Dalian & from there to Magadan inside the USSR & from there to Irkutsk. And in 1946 Lord Mountbatten dispatched Pandit Nehru to Singapore to take possession of the captured Treasury of the Azad Hind Govt. Whatever happened to this Treasury remains a mystery till this day.
To GAGANDEEP: What I had stated was that until 2011 India had not decided to acquire TNWs despite 4 of the 6 warheads being tested in May 1998 being tactical nuclear warheads. That’s why the Prahar was test-fired only 10 years ago, despite the missile being under design since 1996! Prahar is NOT a TBM & is like the SS-150 Prithvi SS-BSM, meaning the solid-propellant sustainer rocket stays ignited all the way to the terminal stage, whereas in case of TBMs the sustainer rocket remains active only till the post-boost phase & gets inactivated & separated after atmospheric re-entry, leaving the warhead to glide back while the forces of natural gravity are at play. You yourself can try it by hurling (not throwing) a piece of chalk or any other solid object upwards with your hand & see how it comes down in a downward parabolic trajectory on its own. But SS-BSMs like Prithvi/Prahar don’t work like that & are powered all-the-way to their destination so that they can be manoeuvred inflight or can fly a depressed horizontal trajectory after gaining the desired altitude. And the public display of the TATA-made Prahar at DEFEXPO-2020 was proof of its series-production.
I had also explained earlier why the PLAGF is over-reliant on ground-based tube/rocket artillery, i.e. the PLAAF’s utter lack of advanced tactical interdiction & deep-strike combat aircraft. It must be noted that for the past 20 years the PLAAF has not service-inducted a single fourth-generation dedicated tactical interdictor aircraft (after retiring its Nanchang Q-5s) & a dedicated deep-strike aircraft & so the JH-7A till this day cannot fly at low-levels, leave alone terrain-hugging flight profiles. This has been due to various limitations, including technology embargoes placed by the West after May 1988. Consequently, to make up for such capability gaps, the PLAGF has resorted to the usage of TBMs & MBRLs as tactical-strike/deep-strike weapons. But India does not suffer from such handicaps & therefore has easy access to sensor-fuzed sub-munitions & millimetre-wave W-band seekers (which are also homegrown). Such sensor-fuzed sub-munitions will be on-board both the surface-launched Pralay SS-BSM & the HAL-developed subsonic air-launched Combat Air Teaming System (CATS), with the latter being powered by the GTRE-developed STFE. If a shorter-range version of the Pralay can be developed as an air-launched missile, then such a weapon can easily be launched by all IAF MRCAs. Similarly, a shorter-range air-launched version of Prahar containing sensor-fuzed sub-munitions can be air-launched by Hawk Mk.132 AJTs, since such AJTs are best employed over mountainous terrain & can fly terrain-masking flight-profiles for evading hostile air-defence networks. Hence, both air-launched & ground-launched rocket artillery solutions are available for use against massed PLAGF armoured/mechanised deployments & tube/rocket artillery deployments.
Thank you so much for this beautiful explanation. It cleared many doubts.
To SHIVKURUP: 1) More than 1,500. 2, 3 & 5) All are T-90S. 4) There was no such order. 5)
To KAUSTAV & GAGANDEEP: India’s first hostile drone-attack:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3kmNtJvfdk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0tuOD9ZxJk
This was to be expected & most probably this type of hexacopter was used:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOqWUHIkZEM
Just a month ago, the IB had reported that the Pakistan Rangers had established a drone control centre bang opposite the BSF OP in Samba in the Chic ken’s Neck area. Another such centre has been operational for a long time opposite Kathua. Now, it remains to be seen if India will hold Pakistan to account for this blatant act of war (by violating Indian airspace across ther WB), or will just look the other way around.
Back in December 1971 the entire Chicken’s Neck area was captured within 24 hours by the IA’s 26 Infantry Division led by its GOC Maj Gen Zorawar Chand Bakshi. But the then PMO & its ‘Panj Pyare’ had other plans that were not shared with IA HQ at that time, i.e. it had already been decided by the then PMO that India will return all territories captured across the IB, while only those territories captured along the LoC by either side will be kept for good. We now are paying the price of such follies!!!
Mr. Prasun
As you said the Ceasefire is on LOC that's why the drone operations were going on across the IB/WB.
The GOI is going to look the other way guaranteed.
I was wondering when will the next chapter start in skirmishes across LOC and WB now it will begin.
Thanks
'will just look the other way around' -- this will be the most probable OPTION for India.
how come ‘Panj Pyare’ never nominated for/given Bharat Ratna for their wonderful service to the nation?
BTW what India did through Balakot, they did through this cheap drone, now who is smart? Now let's see what would be GoI/IAF's rant as Rafal is already inducted.
Am interested to hear the new excuse. the easy and most probable one would be theatre command is not yet ready, not ready for 2 front war and not ready to do offensive-defence due to ccp factor, etc.
Is it presumptuous of me to think this drone attack was done precisely to incite Indian reaction so it will take PAK populace mind of the recent events regarding rumour of plans to assassinate Bajwa, FFATF and trouble in NWFP etc...
Prasunda,
Two Drones came from Pakistan and dropped bombs and went away! We did nothing. We are still not aware what hit us !
If drone from terrorists can penetrate our air defence then it's anyone's guess what stealthy drones of our unfriendly nations can do !
We haven't learned anything from Armenia and Azarbaijan war !
Best regards
Prasun da do you think mast mounted battlefield surveillance radar is useful against this types of quad-hexacopters?
sir,
1. was the drone attack was in retaliation for Lahore or so-called peace talk sabotaging act or a message against de-elimination process.
2. why is that IAF bases aren't equipped with anti UAV system, when its easily available with Tonbo systems? r we waiting for DRDO system?? i've seen PAK bases with infrared surveillance systems of range of 5km in a tweet. do we have such system in place or the process is initiated only after galwan clashes?
http://tonboimaging.com/defense/solutions/vault-cuas/
3. will we ever see IA with the ak 203?
thank you
Yogesh
To PRAKSH, PM, PARTHASARATHI & YOGESH: The following thread will provide you with some pointers.
To DASHU: Oh, they were indeed rewarded not through ceremonial awards, but their children with nominations by both Indira Gandhi & Rajiv Gandhi for securing commodity-supply contracts awarded by the State Trading Corporation throughout the 1980s for supplying the USSR with such commodities. It is now all a matter of record since it all has been explained in great detail by ZEE MediasGroup founder Subhash Chandra in his memoir THE Z FACTOR. In fact, one of the beneficiaries was even present at the PM’s Residence during the launch of this book, just like ‘Mehul Bhai’ was present at another function at the PM’s Official Residence back in 2015.
To SARATHI: Every soft-kill or hard-kill air-defence system must have 2 essential elements: a target acquisition/tracking system & its related fire-control mechanism; and the hard-kill weapon. Since such drones don’t make too much noise, they cannot be acquired by TV-based sensors. Consequently, only radar-based & IIR-based sensors can detect & track them out to a distance of 20km. Then, when such drones are 5km away they can easily be shot down by a laser effector. Can such a combination be developed in India? Of course. Just develop a lightweight variant of the ‘Uttam’ AESA-MMR with far fewer T/R modules & use it for target detection/tracking, while cost-effective laser effectors that the DRDO has already developed for IED neutralisation can easily be modified for use as surface-to-air directed-energy weapon. Alternatively, passive IRST sensors like the ones developed by TONBO can be used for target detection/tracking.
I read that Azad Hind Govt had an embassy in Omsk in the Soviet Union and not at Irkutsk as u say. Kindly elaborate on this. Anxiously waiting for your reply. Thank in advance.
I read that Azad Hind Govt had an embassy in Omsk in the Soviet Union and not in Irkutsk as said by you above. Kindly elaborate on this. Anxiously waiting for your reply. Thanks in advance.
To PUNEET: The Embassy was in Irkutsk while Omsk was the place where Subhas Chandra Bose was lodged as a guest of the USSR.
Lot of articles in the public domain write about Omsk as the embassy for Azad Hind but no mention of Irkutsk anywhere to my knowledge. I value your opinion highly. Kindly shed some more light on this very intriguing case.
To PUNEET: There are many conflicting accounts about Omsk, Irkutsk & yakutz, like these:
Though he landed in Dairen in Manchuria (now Dallian in China) Bose's plan was to go to Omsk in Siberia. During the War, a large part of the Soviet administration had shifted to Omsk because it was away from the German borders. Bose had himself sent his representative Kato Kochu (an assumed name of an Indian whose identity is yet to be established) to set up a mission of the Provisional government of Azad Hind.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/siberian-survivor-to-secretive-sadhu-netaji-mystery-lives-on/articleshow/48907495.cms
the Consulate of Provisional Government of Free India (Azad Hind) at Omsk office in Russia established by Netaji in December 1944.
https://www.newindianexpress.com/magazine/2014/dec/20/The-Prisoner-of-Yakutsk-696549.html
Back in 2005 during a visit to Irkutsk the local administration officials showed me the villa that had served as the Diplomatic Mission of the Provisional Govt of Azad Hind.
Sir, many thanks for an amazing reply. Please accept my heartfelt gratitude.
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