Those interested in comparing the
EMB-145I with the G-550 AEW & CS can obtain more details on the latter at: http://trishulgroup.blogspot.in/2009/04/g-550-caew-c-profiled.html
42 comments:
rad
said...
hi Prasun
There are a few things that were lacking or were not published about the awacs. It does not seem to have a towed decoy, it is not mentioned that it has a active EW jammer though the RWR and esm systems were described. NO active Dircm as on other awacs!. I hope these are incorporated it will become an expensive sitting duck. The work station does not seem to have 2 consoles as seen in the swedish system and other systems . The appearance seems to be crude as well.I feel 6 months tha they say for the integration and checking out is too optimistic and as we doing it for the first time i realy dont understand how they will solve all the mutual adio interferance problems.
Some articles in the news paper seem to suggest t hat the awacs has SAR GMTI functions as well. It beats me how that is done using the same freq as it tailored for air to air. Air to ground has a diff operating freq.The Israelis were talking about having the same function in one antenna in the AERO INDIA 2011.
To RAD: There’s no reqmt for over-designing/over-equipping the AEW & CS with a defensive suite when the platform will be operating safely well within Indian airspace. The console designs of the Swedish Erieye are of an older design. For the EMB-145I, the consoles are if the same design as those on the A-50I PHALCON. Six months for systems integration & checkout is all right, but it does not mean that the entire system will be flight-certified within the same timeframe. Flight Certification will take a far longer time, like at least another three years. The S-band radar won’t have any SAR or GMTI capabilities, since for these modes of operation a X-band radar is reqd. But the S-band radar can engage in maritime surveillance.
To SPANKY’s BLOG/SWAROP: As the poster No13 says, the TRMM’s design was patented jointly by the DRDO & Astra Microwave. But all such TRMMs have to be built abroad since India till this day (shamefully!!!) does not have a single indigenous semiconductor fabrication facility (Foundry), a fact that has been officially confirmed by Dr V K Saraswat. I’m glad you spotted it.
To SPANKY’s BLOG/SWAROP: By the way, the ECIL-built speech secrecy hardware shown above is the very same that's going on board the P-8Is. And the SATCOM antenna of the EMB-145I has come from Israel's ORBIT Technologies.
"Six months for systems integration & checkout is all right, but it does not mean that the entire system will be flight-certified within the same timeframe. Flight Certification will take a far longer time, like at least another three years."
If unfortunately a war arrives in between this period of the three years, then can this aircraft be used therein without the flight certification.
Hi Prasun, Thanks for your reply.Nice to see that India is finally able to design T/R modules itself. So can this development of AESA RADAR for AEW&C act as a spin-off for AESA RADAR development for fighter jets?
why outsiders need a war with India ... they just need to spread some propaganda through FB or Twitter , mission accomplished without firing a single bullet .
Hi PRASUN, in almost every article about EMB-146I AWACS, the range of the AESA radar is said to be 400 km against average fighter sized targets. Here the DRDO poster claims the radar's range to be 200km with a max range of 300 km. If it is indeed true, then this AWACS will be behind Saab Erieye and Chinese ZDK-03. Maybe the AWACS will have DIRCM , active RF jammer once primary sensors integration has been completed. Such a potent asset, a force multiplier. How can it be devoid of such things. Does A-50 have RF jammer, or jammer, MAWS ?
Does any Indian principal surface combatants and submarines have soft kill and HARD KILL torpedo contermeasures of a foreign origin besides RBU-6000 and DRDO Mareech. Is the Torbuster operational on any IN platforms?
Thanx a lot for answering my ques about L-70 and ZU-23-2 .
To Mr.RA 13: No, it won’t be used for any operational mission. For, without any form of flight certification from CEMILAC, the IAF cannot induct any such system into its operational ORBAT.
To SPANKY’s BLOG/SWAROP: I will later upload above photos of the TRMMs designed mainly by DRDO. Astra Microwave Systems Ltd is primarily the beneficiary of direct industrial offsets committed to by the Israelis as part of the EL/M-2084 Arudhra MMR procurement programme. That’s how the company got exposure to the S-band TRMM arena. During Aero India 2011 when I visited the company’s booth, its executives (a couple of young punks) told me not to photograph their exhibits. I said in return that if their products were so secretive, then they might as well as not show them at an expo in the very first place & if they had any objection to me taking photos, then they were free to complain about me to the exhibition organisers or directly to A K Antony or the CAS of the IAF, on whose real estate property the expo was being held. Needless to say, those punks were at a total loss for words & kept their trap shut while I took some photos. Last April, during DEFEXPO the very same products were showcased at the company’s booth & this time there was nobody around to raise any objections about photographing their products/exhibits. As for future spinoffs from the S-band L-STAR R & D programme of LRDE, two areas are now being researched upon: development of an airborne X-band AESA radar capable of maritime surveillance/target tracking & fire-control for guided ASCMs; as well as for battlefield surveillance & GMTI. An airborne X-band MMR for combat aircraft is still a long way away, since for this type of radar, it is not the design & fabrication of the various LRUs that’s the problem. The main challenge concerns the development of the environment control system (ECS) for the combat aircraft’s nose-section. For the Tejas Mk1/2 & LCA (Navy) Mk1/2, the ECS is being procured directly from Honeywell Aerospace.
To DASHU: In a tiny country like Israel, there are 8,000 PhD holders in GSM technologies alone. How many are there in India??? No wonder India is always at the receiving end when it comes to cyber warfare.
To RAHUL: The DRDO poster is that of the 10 feet-long L-STAR, from which the 8 feet-long radar for the EMB-145I is derived. Therefore, the two versions of the S-band AESA radar will not be the same in terms of performance, i.e. the performance parameters of the radar on board the EMB-145I will be enhanced gradually as the flight-test regime kicks off by the year’s end. The A-50Is have RWRs & countermeasures dispensers, but no MAWS, no LWRs & no DIRCMs. These platforms will never operate alone as pickets & will always have escorting combat aircraft & that too well inside friendly airspace. IN’s submarines have the C-301 torpedo active decoy system from Italy’s WAAS, but no hard-kill systems, which are only now becoming available as an option. For warships, the Mareech is like the Torbuster. And by the way, the 70km-range Barak-2 MR-SAM/EL/M-2248 MF-STAR combination has been developed as a one-stop solution, i.e. it is capable of intercepting manned combat aircraft as well as all forms of cruise missile threats & therefore it has a minimum engagement range of 6km. Consequently, all warships equipped with the Barak-2 won’t require a separate standalone close-in weapon system.
Is it true that Army has floated RFI for wheeled guns again for the 5 th time?Can someone pls put some sense into AK antony s empty pot.RFI for towed guns issued for 5th time still hangs in limbo.Partly culprit are CBI.Why everytime they have issue RFI again and again...The way things are going, it seems this idiotic process will continue untill the last vendor sighs and leaves...Mr. AK Antony wants to stick to rules.He doesnt want to take any risks(though I dont see any risk in security of the cuntry)......
HiPrasun I find the optimism of not equipping the awacs with dircms and EW jammners too much . I dont think there is any operational awacs that is not equipped with these systems. It is inevitable that some aircraft or missiles would leak thru the defenses. More over pakistan has antiradiation sams.It beats logic that after spending so much on the awacs that they are scrounging on a couple of million dollars to equip the awacs . I have read some where that we do have a semiconductor fab facility where we make custom build chips for missiles and guidance etc. Please explain the EVC system that is difficult to design ,is a matter of cooling or something more?. we will never have PHDs like israel due to the reservation politics , where being poor is a merit umlike the rest of the world, and due to the fact that we encourage mediocracy in all forms . All the good brains have gone to other countries. Politicians teach us to be anti national and look away.
Prasun sir did u think will induct more phalcon radars to its arsenal & if india will induct then in which platform india will induct these radars.....
I agree with u on AWACS part. Almost all such sytems in operation with other airforces. DIRCM , MAWS , RADAR JAMMER are must . IAF platforms are alwyas low on adequate IR, RF countermeasures .This will be one of the major causes of having huge attrition during times of hostilities. Chaff & flares are no longer useful today in face of highly advanced seekers of WVRAAM , BVRAAM .
Prasun you have been saying that the no of Su-30mki to be procured havent been finalises yet. Why is IAF just buying only 42 acs? Why not more ? Why is another tranche being ordered? Besides the super sukhoi will the other sukhois have wing and tailaesa arrays. We can buy a two seater version of Su-35. Su-35MKI.
Hi PRASUN , Do all the submarines of Sishumar and Sindhugosh class equipped with C-301 WASS? Do any of the surface boats have softkill and hardkill torpedo systems of foreign origin apart from RBU-6000. Is Mareech operational on all Navy destroyers, frigates and corvettes ? Is Torbuster fitted on any IN ships? Its a combo of softkill and hardkill system. It emits sound to lure enemy torpedoes to it and when the torpedo comes close enough, it detonates destroying the torpedo. When will hardkill systems be fiited to these ships? RBU-6000 is present in front of a ship. can it be used against torpedoes coming from the rear portion .
All warships should have a CIWS irrespective of what sam systems it possess. CIWS provides a last line defense. What if some ascm makes its way past the Barak-2 screen and approches the warship. Moreover a DDG will only carry 48-64 Barak-2. This no is not enough for defeating all manned aircrafts and ascm threats. Some CIWS systems should be there. RAM block 2 is ideal for meeting all supersonic , subsonic threats. Along with these AK-630 guns should be there. Delhi class DDG carry 44 SA-17 sams with 32 Barak-1 for close range air defense.
Can U Tell, Y India Can't co-operate with Sweeds on Awacs/Aswac project when already DRDO Fluffy Saraswat agreed co-operating on Tejas MK2 & Grippen NG. Question is, is Swedish Erriye inferior to Israeli G-550 CAEW or American Boeing Wedgetail AEW&C. Where does in true sense our ASWAC project do stand technically par with them or inferior. If inferior can't we co-operate with Sweeds, i am focusing on Sweeds b'case as Middle East crisis grow ( with American-Israeli fuelling) India will have a gr8 difficulty in adjusting with MiddleEastern Nations and Israel, & Israel will twist itz arms selling fist on India on itz favor...Sweeds have advance tech & India can have win win situation. And we shaould remember Sweeds have independent policies in international matter and have advance hightech military industries. Keep ur view in this matter.
Sir , when will the Pakistan navy get its 1st Quing class SSK from China? will Quing class ssk supplement the existing fleet bringing the total no of subs in PN to 11.Why did IN go for Scorpene class for P-75 when more sophisticated subs with AIP was available. Type 212,Type 214. They also have greater range, dive depth, submerged sustained speed then Scorpene.Why cant Kilo class submarines stay in service past 2020. They can be relifed. Many WW2 era are operational. Not for military purposes, but they can still dive and travel underwater. Noth Korea still has many 60s era Soviet diesel electric subs.
Prasun Da, as you said.. >Consequently, all warships equipped with the Barak-2 won’t require a separate standalone close-in weapon system.
I think even with the minimum engagement distance of Barak 2 is 6 KM our ships still need CIWS to work as a second defensive layer to engage threats from 0.5 KM to 5.0 KM ranges like Kashmir/Khastans with QR-SRMs.
That's why, in their latest warships, Europenans and Ameriacans are using MIX of MId-Range + Short-Range missiles in their SAM solutions...and for same requirements Dutch's are using Goalkeaper system.
Sir , I have a few queries. 1.IAF procured around 52 Mirage 2000H and 7 Mirage 2000TH. Many were lost to accidents. Recently 2 were lost. When will extra acs be purchased for replacing the ones lost.
2. IAF has also lost many MiG-29. Till date no replacements have been sought . Why is this so ?
3.Will all Sukhois in IAF get wing and tail aesa arrays and cassidian Ariel toweed radar decoy. Or only the Super ones. What are the differences between Super Su-30 and Su-30 apart fron airframe strenthenig for carriage of Brahmos.
4. How many ELTA 2084 and transportable GS-100 radars have IAF procured ?
Will India purchase the JOint Light Tactical Vehicle from the US . India is not making any major headway in producing state of the art mine protection vehicles at home.
Hi Prasun , during times of hostilties with either China or Pakistan , both these countries will use TBM,NLOS-BSM & LACM. Pakistan will use these weapons in huge nos to offset our numerical advantage. It will nt be as simple as Kargil war. Pak will target all airbases, central ordance depots, infantry garrisons, areas where tanks,artillery,ifv are stored, IN ports such as Mumbai, Vizag. With massed cruise missile and TBM salvos, they can wipe out Navy's entire fleet. Airbases are also targets. Theirn personnel will see warheads falling from the skies and destroying infrastructure and aircrafts on ground. What can IA,IAF,IN do in such a scenario. Akash and Pechors wont be able to counter these threats. What are the defense forces doing to protect themselves from such an attack. Does tyhe defense forces planning to buy modern SAM systems which can defeat these threats and deploy them to protect its assests.
Is the MR-SAM/EL/M-2248 MF-STAR and RAN 40L combination onbaord the IAC-1 a decent enough combination in international standards?
Additionally is this the same combination that will be on the P15B and P-17A??
Also wrt the VVIP AW-101 that the IAF is getting,I have seen a recent pic that shows it is painted the standard IAF low-vis grey not the IAF VVIP COMUNICATION SQD's blue and white paintjob that was shown in renders earlier.Is there a reason the IAF have decided against the blue and white paint scheme now? I have to say I prefered how it looked in the renders than what it looks like in reality.
To Anon@9.54AM: The RFI can be viewed here: http://tenders.gov.in/viewtenddoc.asp?tid=del509967&wno=1&td=TD This RFI is different from the previous ones in that it does not distinguish between wheeled ones & mounted (motorised) ines, meaning the winner will in all probability be a truck-mounted solution. The RFP for towed howitzers should be cancelled since the OFB has already been mandated to produce the 155mm/45-cal version of the FH-77B (starting with an initial order for 100 units). Now, an all-out effort must be made to procure 1,800 motorised 155mm/52-cal howitzers from either L & T/Nexter Systems (proposing the Caesar) or Punj Lloyd/Yugoimport SPDR (the Nora), or Kalyani Group/Elbit Systems (ATMOS) or TATA Power SED/Denel Land Systems (T-5 Mk2000). In my view the Caesar is the best as it can even be airlifted by C-130J-30 transports of the IAF, while all the other contenders can’t. At the same time, as part of the offsets content, L & T/Nexter Systems can also be roped in to develop a turret-mounted tracked self-propelled version of the Caesar that can be integrated with the hull of a T-72M1 after the hull has been fitted with a 1,000hp engine.
To RAD: None of the existing E-3 AWACS units flying with the air forces of the US, UK, France, Saudi Arabia & Japan have any kind of EW jammers or DIRCM. Till today, there’s not been a single case of an AEW & C platform being shot down by an intruding hostile combat aircraft. Nor can any anti-radiation missile shot down an AEW & C platform hundreds of km away. No one in India has any semiconductor fabrication foundry—this being confirmed on TV by Dr V K Saraswat himself. ECS is the environmental control system, whose main job is to control and maintain the temperature & humidity levels within the avionics bulkheads of any aircraft (civil or military).
To Anon@10.29AM: Only the two follow-on A-50Is have been contracted for.
To Anon@13.35PM: A fleet of about 312 Su-30MKis is more than enough for the IAF, since the M-MRCA & FGFA will also be inducted into service within this decade. Not all Su-30MKIs will have wing- and tail-mounted L-band/X-band AESA arrays. Only those upgraded to the full-standard Super Su-30MKI (about 120) will have such arrays. The rest will have laser warning systems, missile approach warning systems & X-band AESA-MMRs in place of the NO-11M Bars. Two-seat version of the Su-35 is an operational conversion aircraft only, and is in no way superior to the Su-30MKI.
To RAHUL: All those Type 877EKM & Class/Type 1500 SSKs that have undergone a medium-refit have the C-301s on board. Installation of the Mareech has only begun, starting with the three Project 17 FFGs. Torbuster was never acquired by the IN. Any inbound torpedo never approaches the targetted warship from the front or rear, as the chances of a miss are far greater. Torpedoes always approach their targets sideways (starboard or portside). AS for CIWS, new-generation warships equipped with active phased-array volume search radars don’t have any missile-based or gun-based CIWS. Only those warships not equipped with active phased-array volume search radars—like the Project 17 FFGs, Project 1135.6 FFGs & Project 15 DDGs require dedicated CIWS fitments.
To THINK TANK: The IAI/ELTA G-550 AEW & CS & Boeing’s Wedgetail AEW & CS are far more superior to the Saab/Ericsson Erieye. CABS’ EMB-145I AEW & CS is like the Erieye. India’s military-technological options will not be affected by any future Middle East tensions, just as relations between Israel-Qatar & Israel-Jordan won’t be affected by an future Arab-Israeli tensions.
To Anon@5.11PM: The AIP-equipped Qing SSKs should begin arriving in Pakistan by late next year. Type 212/214-class SSKs have a far more expensive fuel cell-based AIP which is not what the IN wants. The Stirling AIP to date offers the best option & can also be easily accommodated by the Scorpene SSK’s hull in a very cost-effective manner.
To INDIAN: New-generation warships equipped with active phased-array volume search radars don’t have any missile-based or gun-based CIWS (the same goes for the Republic of Singapore Navy’s Formidable-class FFGs, which only have Aster-15s on board). Only those warships not equipped with active phased-array volume search radars—like the Project 17 FFGs, Project 1135.6 FFGs & Project 15 DDGs & Project 28 ASW corvettes require dedicated CIWS fitments.
To Anon@10.32PM: No attrition replacements for Mirage 2000s & MiG-29s will be bought. Not all Su-30MKIs will have wing- and tail-mounted L-band/X-band AESA arrays. Only those upgraded to the full-standard Super Su-30MKI (about 120) will have such arrays. The rest will have laser warning systems, missile approach warning systems & X-band AESA-MMRs in place of the NO-11M Bars. Refer to the earlier threads on Super 30MKI & IACCCS for more details.
To SURYA BANERJEE: India is interested in the JLTV more from a special operations standpoint, as opposed to merely as a MPV. The two reqmts are totally different. MPVs can be procured anytime from either OFB or from Mahindra Defence Systems.
To AK: Firstly, even with such a formidable arsenal, Pakistan till today has not even been able to shoot down a single undefended Predator/Reaper UCAV, which have been violating Pakistan’s airspace with impunity since 2004. Secondly, Pakistan does not have any TBM capable of targetting warships. Only its C-602 & C-802A ASCMs can do so & these missiles can easily be taken care of by the Barak-2. As for neutralising the NLOS-BSMs, GLCMs & ALCMs, the earlier thread on IACCCS provided several options, including how the IAF plans to neutralise such threats.
To UNKNOWN: Barak-2 MR-SAM/EL/M-2248 MF-STAR and RAN 40L combination on board the IAC-1 or on board any other warship (like the four Project 15B DDGs) will indeed be the best combination ever available. Project 17A FFGs will have Barak-2 MR-SAM/EL/M-2248 MF-STAR, but RAN-40L has not yet been specified for them. For VVIP/Head of State transportation purposes, low-visibility grey is always the best option, since the objective is never to publicise the platform, rather to maintain a low profile. Jazzy paint-schemes are all right for civilian private-sector VIP helicopters.
when you say theMR-SAM/EL/M-2248 MF-STAR and RAN 40L combination "will indeed be the best combination ever available" do you mean available to the IN or avalible to any navy ever? And how does this combo compare to that of other nations such as the PLA(N) and USN?
+when will we see the Indian SOFs looking the up to the standard of Western SOFs wrt equipment?
To UNKNOWN: I mean to any navy ever. Neithger the PLAN or USN have such a combination as yet. Indian SOFs began to adopt Western standards wrt hardware as far back as 1991.
It is being published that the paracommandos will be getting us made m-4 rifles rather than the tavor which has been already inducted . What was the reason for that change .Or will both of them serve with the special forces. You mentioned that the barak 2 was capable of dealing with NLOS missiles as well. There has been publications saying that the it is 4 times more manouvearable than the AAD interceptor which i believe. They are past masters in anti missile warfare and tech . In that case it looks that it is an all round solution for all aerial target from UAV to Ballistic to nlos missiles . Why cant we ask them to incorporate a IIR seeker on the barak which should not be a problem, or better still co develop a quantum well IIR seeker and have a deadly silent missile .
Will this all be sorted out soon? The situation looks quite desperate espceially if it is affecting the IN's combat rediness. And is this having a negative impact on the devlopment and deployment of the BARAK-8?
Hi Prasun, Thanks for your reply and the pics.From your answers I assume that India has completely indigenized the IFF and speech secrecy system. This is a good news. These are very critical systems and shouldn't be imported.
Can you kindly tell me what is GMTI? Also is X-band radar more efficient than S-band? So as of now the Indian AESA will not be able to do maritime survillence?
Yes, the IFF transponders, software-defined radios & related speech secrecy systems have been totally indigenised in conformity with India's National Secure Mode (NSM) protocols for all three armed services. GMTI = ground moving target indication mode for airborne multi-mode radars. X-band radars are of the pulse-Doppler monopulse-type. They're used as airborne MMRs for combat aircraft and MR/ASW platforms (manned & unmanned) for fire-control, synthetic aperture/GMTI & achieving Doppler beam-sharpening for terrain navigation & mobile ground target engagements. Because of these features, X-band SAR seekers are preferred for PGMs like BrahMos & Prahaar. S-band & L-band radars are employed primarily for volume search over the seas & in the air. That's why on the Super Su-30MKI, the L-band & S-band distributed AESA arrays will be used for surveillance/early warning purposes, while the X-band AESA on the nose will be used for target engagement & even directional jamming against active BVRAAM seekers, which also operate in the X-band. The S-band AESA radar on the EMB-145I can also engage in maritime surveillance.
42 comments:
hi Prasun
There are a few things that were lacking or were not published about the awacs. It does not seem to have a towed decoy, it is not mentioned that it has a active EW jammer though the RWR and esm systems were described. NO active Dircm as on other awacs!. I hope these are incorporated it will become an expensive sitting duck.
The work station does not seem to have 2 consoles as seen in the swedish system and other systems . The appearance seems to be crude as well.I feel 6 months tha they say for the integration and checking out is too optimistic and as we doing it for the first time i realy dont understand how they will solve all the mutual adio interferance problems.
Some articles in the news paper seem to suggest t hat the awacs has SAR GMTI functions as well. It beats me how that is done using the same freq as it tailored for air to air. Air to ground has a diff operating freq.The Israelis were talking about having the same function in one antenna in the AERO INDIA 2011.
Hi Prasun,
were the T/R modules for AESA developed indigenously or bought from Israel as in the case of Swordfish RADAR?
Thanks
Swarop
@spanky's Blog:
Can't you see the 13th picture ?
@Rahul:
It's a DRDO claim. DRDO
also claimed the swordfish RADAR is indigenous...but is it??
Thanks
Swarop
To RAD: There’s no reqmt for over-designing/over-equipping the AEW & CS with a defensive suite when the platform will be operating safely well within Indian airspace. The console designs of the Swedish Erieye are of an older design. For the EMB-145I, the consoles are if the same design as those on the A-50I PHALCON. Six months for systems integration & checkout is all right, but it does not mean that the entire system will be flight-certified within the same timeframe. Flight Certification will take a far longer time, like at least another three years. The S-band radar won’t have any SAR or GMTI capabilities, since for these modes of operation a X-band radar is reqd. But the S-band radar can engage in maritime surveillance.
To SPANKY’s BLOG/SWAROP: As the poster No13 says, the TRMM’s design was patented jointly by the DRDO & Astra Microwave. But all such TRMMs have to be built abroad since India till this day (shamefully!!!) does not have a single indigenous semiconductor fabrication facility (Foundry), a fact that has been officially confirmed by Dr V K Saraswat. I’m glad you spotted it.
To SPANKY’s BLOG/SWAROP: By the way, the ECIL-built speech secrecy hardware shown above is the very same that's going on board the P-8Is. And the SATCOM antenna of the EMB-145I has come from Israel's ORBIT Technologies.
"Six months for systems integration & checkout is all right, but it does not mean that the entire system will be flight-certified within the same timeframe. Flight Certification will take a far longer time, like at least another three years."
If unfortunately a war arrives in between this period of the three years, then can this aircraft be used therein without the flight certification.
Hi Prasun,
Thanks for your reply.Nice to see that India is finally able to design T/R modules itself. So can this development of AESA RADAR for AEW&C act as a spin-off for AESA RADAR development for fighter jets?
Thanks
Swarop
@Spanky,
Please go through the following pdf file:
http://www.astramwp.com/adminpanel/products/134001168_180612_IER_InitiationReport.pdf
ohh no
is Mr. Ra 13 predicting a war within next 3 yrs ?????
lot of his predictions/comments were correct
why outsiders need a war with India ... they just need to spread some propaganda through FB or Twitter , mission accomplished without firing a single bullet .
Hi PRASUN, in almost every article about EMB-146I AWACS, the range of the AESA radar is said to be 400 km against average fighter sized targets. Here the DRDO poster claims the radar's range to be 200km with a max range of 300 km. If it is indeed true, then this AWACS will be behind Saab Erieye and Chinese ZDK-03. Maybe the AWACS will have DIRCM , active RF jammer once primary sensors integration has been completed. Such a potent asset, a force multiplier. How can it be devoid of such things. Does A-50 have RF jammer, or jammer, MAWS ?
Does any Indian principal surface combatants and submarines have soft kill and HARD KILL torpedo contermeasures of a foreign origin besides RBU-6000 and DRDO Mareech. Is the Torbuster operational on any IN platforms?
Thanx a lot for answering my ques about L-70 and ZU-23-2 .
To Mr.RA 13: No, it won’t be used for any operational mission. For, without any form of flight certification from CEMILAC, the IAF cannot induct any such system into its operational ORBAT.
To SPANKY’s BLOG/SWAROP: I will later upload above photos of the TRMMs designed mainly by DRDO. Astra Microwave Systems Ltd is primarily the beneficiary of direct industrial offsets committed to by the Israelis as part of the EL/M-2084 Arudhra MMR procurement programme. That’s how the company got exposure to the S-band TRMM arena. During Aero India 2011 when I visited the company’s booth, its executives (a couple of young punks) told me not to photograph their exhibits. I said in return that if their products were so secretive, then they might as well as not show them at an expo in the very first place & if they had any objection to me taking photos, then they were free to complain about me to the exhibition organisers or directly to A K Antony or the CAS of the IAF, on whose real estate property the expo was being held. Needless to say, those punks were at a total loss for words & kept their trap shut while I took some photos. Last April, during DEFEXPO the very same products were showcased at the company’s booth & this time there was nobody around to raise any objections about photographing their products/exhibits.
As for future spinoffs from the S-band L-STAR R & D programme of LRDE, two areas are now being researched upon: development of an airborne X-band AESA radar capable of maritime surveillance/target tracking & fire-control for guided ASCMs; as well as for battlefield surveillance & GMTI. An airborne X-band MMR for combat aircraft is still a long way away, since for this type of radar, it is not the design & fabrication of the various LRUs that’s the problem. The main challenge concerns the development of the environment control system (ECS) for the combat aircraft’s nose-section. For the Tejas Mk1/2 & LCA (Navy) Mk1/2, the ECS is being procured directly from Honeywell Aerospace.
To DASHU: In a tiny country like Israel, there are 8,000 PhD holders in GSM technologies alone. How many are there in India??? No wonder India is always at the receiving end when it comes to cyber warfare.
To RAHUL: The DRDO poster is that of the 10 feet-long L-STAR, from which the 8 feet-long radar for the EMB-145I is derived. Therefore, the two versions of the S-band AESA radar will not be the same in terms of performance, i.e. the performance parameters of the radar on board the EMB-145I will be enhanced gradually as the flight-test regime kicks off by the year’s end. The A-50Is have RWRs & countermeasures dispensers, but no MAWS, no LWRs & no DIRCMs. These platforms will never operate alone as pickets & will always have escorting combat aircraft & that too well inside friendly airspace.
IN’s submarines have the C-301 torpedo active decoy system from Italy’s WAAS, but no hard-kill systems, which are only now becoming available as an option. For warships, the Mareech is like the Torbuster.
And by the way, the 70km-range Barak-2 MR-SAM/EL/M-2248 MF-STAR combination has been developed as a one-stop solution, i.e. it is capable of intercepting manned combat aircraft as well as all forms of cruise missile threats & therefore it has a minimum engagement range of 6km. Consequently, all warships equipped with the Barak-2 won’t require a separate standalone close-in weapon system.
dashu said...
ohh no
is Mr. Ra 13 predicting a war within next 3 yrs ?????
lot of his predictions/comments were correct
August 24, 2012 9:22 PM
How do you know it all. Lol...
Hi Prasun da
Your thoughts for below:
Is it true that Army has floated RFI for wheeled guns again for the 5 th time?Can someone pls put some sense into AK antony s empty pot.RFI for towed guns issued for 5th time still hangs in limbo.Partly culprit are CBI.Why everytime they have issue RFI again and again...The way things are going, it seems this idiotic process will continue untill the last vendor sighs and leaves...Mr. AK Antony wants to stick to rules.He doesnt want to take any risks(though I dont see any risk in security of the cuntry)......
HiPrasun
I find the optimism of not equipping the awacs with dircms and EW jammners too much . I dont think there is any operational awacs that is not equipped with these systems. It is inevitable that some aircraft or missiles would leak thru the defenses. More over pakistan has antiradiation sams.It beats logic that after spending so much on the awacs that they are scrounging on a couple of million dollars to equip the awacs .
I have read some where that we do have a semiconductor fab facility where we make custom build chips for missiles and guidance etc.
Please explain the EVC system that is difficult to design ,is a matter of cooling or something more?.
we will never have PHDs like israel due to the reservation politics , where being poor is a merit umlike the rest of the world, and due to the fact that we encourage mediocracy in all forms . All the good brains have gone to other countries. Politicians teach us to be anti national and look away.
Prasun sir did u think will induct more phalcon radars to its arsenal & if india will induct then in which platform india will induct these radars.....
To RAD,
I agree with u on AWACS part. Almost all such sytems in operation with other airforces. DIRCM , MAWS , RADAR JAMMER are must . IAF platforms are alwyas low on adequate IR, RF countermeasures .This will be one of the major causes of having huge attrition during times of hostilities. Chaff & flares are no longer useful today in face of highly advanced seekers of WVRAAM , BVRAAM .
Prasun you have been saying that the no of Su-30mki to be procured havent been finalises yet. Why is IAF just buying only 42 acs? Why not more ? Why is another tranche being ordered? Besides the super sukhoi will the other sukhois have wing and tailaesa arrays. We can buy a two seater version of Su-35. Su-35MKI.
Hi PRASUN , Do all the submarines of Sishumar and Sindhugosh class equipped with C-301 WASS? Do any of the surface boats have softkill and hardkill torpedo systems of foreign origin apart from RBU-6000. Is Mareech operational on all Navy destroyers, frigates and corvettes ?
Is Torbuster fitted on any IN ships? Its a combo of softkill and hardkill system. It emits sound to lure enemy torpedoes to it and when the torpedo comes close enough, it detonates destroying the torpedo.
When will hardkill systems be fiited to these ships?
RBU-6000 is present in front of a ship. can it be used against torpedoes coming from the rear portion .
All warships should have a CIWS irrespective of what sam systems it possess. CIWS provides a last line defense. What if some ascm makes its way past the Barak-2 screen and approches the warship. Moreover a DDG will only carry 48-64 Barak-2. This no is not enough for defeating all manned aircrafts and ascm threats. Some CIWS systems should be there. RAM block 2 is ideal for meeting all supersonic , subsonic threats. Along with these AK-630 guns should be there. Delhi class DDG carry 44 SA-17 sams with 32 Barak-1 for close range air defense.
Hello Prasun Da
Can U Tell, Y India Can't co-operate with Sweeds on Awacs/Aswac project when already DRDO Fluffy Saraswat agreed co-operating on Tejas MK2 & Grippen NG.
Question is, is Swedish Erriye inferior to Israeli G-550 CAEW or American Boeing Wedgetail AEW&C. Where does in true sense our ASWAC project do stand technically par with them or inferior.
If inferior can't we co-operate with Sweeds, i am focusing on Sweeds b'case as Middle East crisis grow ( with American-Israeli fuelling) India will have a gr8 difficulty in adjusting with MiddleEastern Nations and Israel, & Israel will twist itz arms selling fist on India on itz favor...Sweeds have advance tech & India can have win win situation. And we shaould remember Sweeds have independent policies in international matter and have advance hightech military industries.
Keep ur view in this matter.
Think Tank
Sir , when will the Pakistan navy get its 1st Quing class SSK from China? will Quing class ssk supplement the existing fleet bringing the total no of subs in PN to 11.Why did IN go for Scorpene class for P-75 when more sophisticated subs with AIP was available. Type 212,Type 214. They also have greater range, dive depth, submerged sustained speed then Scorpene.Why cant Kilo class submarines stay in service past 2020. They can be relifed. Many WW2 era are operational. Not for military purposes, but they can still dive and travel underwater. Noth Korea still has many 60s era Soviet diesel electric subs.
Prasun Da,
as you said..
>Consequently, all warships equipped with the Barak-2 won’t require a separate standalone close-in weapon system.
I think even with the minimum engagement distance of Barak 2 is 6 KM our ships still need CIWS to work as a second defensive layer to engage threats from 0.5 KM to 5.0 KM ranges like Kashmir/Khastans with QR-SRMs.
That's why, in their latest warships, Europenans and Ameriacans are using MIX of MId-Range + Short-Range missiles in their SAM solutions...and for same requirements Dutch's are using Goalkeaper system.
Regards,
Sir , I have a few queries.
1.IAF procured around 52 Mirage 2000H and 7 Mirage 2000TH. Many were lost to accidents. Recently 2 were lost. When will extra acs be purchased for replacing the ones lost.
2. IAF has also lost many MiG-29. Till date no replacements have been sought . Why is this so ?
3.Will all Sukhois in IAF get wing and tail aesa arrays and cassidian Ariel toweed radar decoy. Or only the Super ones. What are the differences between Super Su-30 and Su-30 apart fron airframe strenthenig for carriage of Brahmos.
4. How many ELTA 2084 and transportable GS-100 radars have IAF procured ?
HI Prasun,
Will India purchase the JOint Light Tactical Vehicle from the US . India is not making any major headway in producing state of the art mine protection vehicles at home.
Thanks,
Surya
Hi Prasun , during times of hostilties with either China or Pakistan , both these countries will use TBM,NLOS-BSM & LACM. Pakistan will use these weapons in huge nos to offset our numerical advantage. It will nt be as simple as Kargil war. Pak will target all airbases, central ordance depots, infantry garrisons, areas where tanks,artillery,ifv are stored, IN ports such as Mumbai, Vizag. With massed cruise missile and TBM salvos, they can wipe out Navy's entire fleet. Airbases are also targets. Theirn personnel will see warheads falling from the skies and destroying infrastructure and aircrafts on ground. What can IA,IAF,IN do in such a scenario. Akash and Pechors wont be able to counter these threats. What are the defense forces doing to protect themselves from such an attack. Does tyhe defense forces planning to buy modern SAM systems which can defeat these threats and deploy them to protect its assests.
Prasun,
Is the MR-SAM/EL/M-2248 MF-STAR and RAN 40L combination onbaord the IAC-1 a decent enough combination in international standards?
Additionally is this the same combination that will be on the P15B and P-17A??
Also wrt the VVIP AW-101 that the IAF is getting,I have seen a recent pic that shows it is painted the standard IAF low-vis grey not the IAF VVIP COMUNICATION SQD's blue and white paintjob that was shown in renders earlier.Is there a reason the IAF have decided against the blue and white paint scheme now? I have to say I prefered how it looked in the renders than what it looks like in reality.
Renders in the blue and white:
http://www.aviationnews.eu/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/IAF_AW101.jpg
Recent pic in grey:
http://i966.photobucket.com/albums/ae146/yeovil06/a-13.jpg
To Anon@9.54AM: The RFI can be viewed here: http://tenders.gov.in/viewtenddoc.asp?tid=del509967&wno=1&td=TD
This RFI is different from the previous ones in that it does not distinguish between wheeled ones & mounted (motorised) ines, meaning the winner will in all probability be a truck-mounted solution. The RFP for towed howitzers should be cancelled since the OFB has already been mandated to produce the 155mm/45-cal version of the FH-77B (starting with an initial order for 100 units). Now, an all-out effort must be made to procure 1,800 motorised 155mm/52-cal howitzers from either L & T/Nexter Systems (proposing the Caesar) or Punj Lloyd/Yugoimport SPDR (the Nora), or Kalyani Group/Elbit Systems (ATMOS) or TATA Power SED/Denel Land Systems (T-5 Mk2000). In my view the Caesar is the best as it can even be airlifted by C-130J-30 transports of the IAF, while all the other contenders can’t. At the same time, as part of the offsets content, L & T/Nexter Systems can also be roped in to develop a turret-mounted tracked self-propelled version of the Caesar that can be integrated with the hull of a T-72M1 after the hull has been fitted with a 1,000hp engine.
To RAD: None of the existing E-3 AWACS units flying with the air forces of the US, UK, France, Saudi Arabia & Japan have any kind of EW jammers or DIRCM. Till today, there’s not been a single case of an AEW & C platform being shot down by an intruding hostile combat aircraft. Nor can any anti-radiation missile shot down an AEW & C platform hundreds of km away. No one in India has any semiconductor fabrication foundry—this being confirmed on TV by Dr V K Saraswat himself. ECS is the environmental control system, whose main job is to control and maintain the temperature & humidity levels within the avionics bulkheads of any aircraft (civil or military).
To Anon@10.29AM: Only the two follow-on A-50Is have been contracted for.
To Anon@13.35PM: A fleet of about 312 Su-30MKis is more than enough for the IAF, since the M-MRCA & FGFA will also be inducted into service within this decade. Not all Su-30MKIs will have wing- and tail-mounted L-band/X-band AESA arrays. Only those upgraded to the full-standard Super Su-30MKI (about 120) will have such arrays. The rest will have laser warning systems, missile approach warning systems & X-band AESA-MMRs in place of the NO-11M Bars. Two-seat version of the Su-35 is an operational conversion aircraft only, and is in no way superior to the Su-30MKI.
To RAHUL: All those Type 877EKM & Class/Type 1500 SSKs that have undergone a medium-refit have the C-301s on board. Installation of the Mareech has only begun, starting with the three Project 17 FFGs. Torbuster was never acquired by the IN. Any inbound torpedo never approaches the targetted warship from the front or rear, as the chances of a miss are far greater. Torpedoes always approach their targets sideways (starboard or portside).
AS for CIWS, new-generation warships equipped with active phased-array volume search radars don’t have any missile-based or gun-based CIWS. Only those warships not equipped with active phased-array volume search radars—like the Project 17 FFGs, Project 1135.6 FFGs & Project 15 DDGs require dedicated CIWS fitments.
To THINK TANK: The IAI/ELTA G-550 AEW & CS & Boeing’s Wedgetail AEW & CS are far more superior to the Saab/Ericsson Erieye. CABS’ EMB-145I AEW & CS is like the Erieye. India’s military-technological options will not be affected by any future Middle East tensions, just as relations between Israel-Qatar & Israel-Jordan won’t be affected by an future Arab-Israeli tensions.
To Anon@5.11PM: The AIP-equipped Qing SSKs should begin arriving in Pakistan by late next year. Type 212/214-class SSKs have a far more expensive fuel cell-based AIP which is not what the IN wants. The Stirling AIP to date offers the best option & can also be easily accommodated by the Scorpene SSK’s hull in a very cost-effective manner.
To INDIAN: New-generation warships equipped with active phased-array volume search radars don’t have any missile-based or gun-based CIWS (the same goes for the Republic of Singapore Navy’s Formidable-class FFGs, which only have Aster-15s on board). Only those warships not equipped with active phased-array volume search radars—like the Project 17 FFGs, Project 1135.6 FFGs & Project 15 DDGs & Project 28 ASW corvettes require dedicated CIWS fitments.
To Anon@10.32PM: No attrition replacements for Mirage 2000s & MiG-29s will be bought. Not all Su-30MKIs will have wing- and tail-mounted L-band/X-band AESA arrays. Only those upgraded to the full-standard Super Su-30MKI (about 120) will have such arrays. The rest will have laser warning systems, missile approach warning systems & X-band AESA-MMRs in place of the NO-11M Bars. Refer to the earlier threads on Super 30MKI & IACCCS for more details.
To SURYA BANERJEE: India is interested in the JLTV more from a special operations standpoint, as opposed to merely as a MPV. The two reqmts are totally different. MPVs can be procured anytime from either OFB or from Mahindra Defence Systems.
To AK: Firstly, even with such a formidable arsenal, Pakistan till today has not even been able to shoot down a single undefended Predator/Reaper UCAV, which have been violating Pakistan’s airspace with impunity since 2004. Secondly, Pakistan does not have any TBM capable of targetting warships. Only its C-602 & C-802A ASCMs can do so & these missiles can easily be taken care of by the Barak-2. As for neutralising the NLOS-BSMs, GLCMs & ALCMs, the earlier thread on IACCCS provided several options, including how the IAF plans to neutralise such threats.
To UNKNOWN: Barak-2 MR-SAM/EL/M-2248 MF-STAR and RAN 40L combination on board the IAC-1 or on board any other warship (like the four Project 15B DDGs) will indeed be the best combination ever available. Project 17A FFGs will have Barak-2 MR-SAM/EL/M-2248 MF-STAR, but RAN-40L has not yet been specified for them. For VVIP/Head of State transportation purposes, low-visibility grey is always the best option, since the objective is never to publicise the platform, rather to maintain a low profile. Jazzy paint-schemes are all right for civilian private-sector VIP helicopters.
Prasun,
when you say theMR-SAM/EL/M-2248 MF-STAR and RAN 40L combination "will indeed be the best combination ever available" do you mean available to the IN or avalible to any navy ever? And how does this combo compare to that of other nations such as the PLA(N) and USN?
+when will we see the Indian SOFs looking the up to the standard of Western SOFs wrt equipment?
To UNKNOWN: I mean to any navy ever. Neithger the PLAN or USN have such a combination as yet. Indian SOFs began to adopt Western standards wrt hardware as far back as 1991.
HI prasun
It is being published that the paracommandos will be getting us made m-4 rifles rather than the tavor which has been already inducted . What was the reason for that change .Or will both of them serve with the special forces.
You mentioned that the barak 2 was capable of dealing with NLOS missiles as well. There has been publications saying that the it is 4 times more manouvearable than the AAD interceptor which i believe. They are past masters in anti missile warfare and tech . In that case it looks that it is an all round solution for all aerial target from UAV to Ballistic to nlos missiles . Why cant we ask them to incorporate a IIR seeker on the barak which should not be a problem, or better still co develop a quantum well IIR seeker and have a deadly silent missile .
Prasun, what do you think of this news:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Navys-critical-requirement-for-Israeli-Barak-missiles-stalled-due-to-CBI-case/articleshow/15794688.cms
Will this all be sorted out soon? The situation looks quite desperate espceially if it is affecting the IN's combat rediness. And is this having a negative impact on the devlopment and deployment of the BARAK-8?
Hi Prasun,
Thanks for your reply and the pics.From your answers I assume that India has completely indigenized the IFF and speech secrecy system. This is a good news. These are very critical systems and shouldn't be imported.
Can you kindly tell me what is GMTI? Also is X-band radar more efficient than S-band? So as of now the Indian AESA will not be able to do maritime survillence?
Thanks
swarop
Yes, the IFF transponders, software-defined radios & related speech secrecy systems have been totally indigenised in conformity with India's National Secure Mode (NSM) protocols for all three armed services.
GMTI = ground moving target indication mode for airborne multi-mode radars.
X-band radars are of the pulse-Doppler monopulse-type. They're used as airborne MMRs for combat aircraft and MR/ASW platforms (manned & unmanned) for fire-control, synthetic aperture/GMTI & achieving Doppler beam-sharpening for terrain navigation & mobile ground target engagements. Because of these features, X-band SAR seekers are preferred for PGMs like BrahMos & Prahaar.
S-band & L-band radars are employed primarily for volume search over the seas & in the air. That's why on the Super Su-30MKI, the L-band & S-band distributed AESA arrays will be used for surveillance/early warning purposes, while the X-band AESA on the nose will be used for target engagement & even directional jamming against active BVRAAM seekers, which also operate in the X-band. The S-band AESA radar on the EMB-145I can also engage in maritime surveillance.
Thanks
Swarop
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