On August 27, 2012 in New Delhi, India’s
Ministry of Defence-owned Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) signed a Memorandum of
Understanding (MoU) for creating a Joint Venture (JV) with Russia’s
Rosoboronexport State Corp and Splav SPA, also of Russia, to jointly-manufacture
five versions of rockets meant for use by the 42 Smerch-M MBRLs
now in service with the Indian Army. The OFB’s Ambajhari-based
military-industrial facility will undertake final assembly of the rockets. The
fuzing mechanisms and sub-munitions will be supplied off-the-shelf by Splav SPA,
with the remaining components of the rockets being produced from
locally-produced raw materials, based on ToT from Splav SPA. To me, such JVs will
neither make India self-reliant in the production of rockets for Smerch-M, nor
will it enable either the OFB or DRDO to acquire the know-how necessary for indigenously
developing new-generation long-range MBRLs. The money instead should have been better
spent on either conducting R & D for an indigenous 120km-range substitute
of the Smerch-M, or on the ARDE’s on-going project for developing the
60km-range Pinaka Mk2 rocket (the Pinaka Mk1 has a 37.5km-range). For those
interested, below are details of the five types of rockets to be built
by the OFB for the Smerch-M MBRL.
In response to persistent queries on the
DRDO-developed Marreech anti-torpedo defence system, the illustrations below, I
hope, will serve to answer several, if not, all of the queries.
Posted below are details of a type of
flare decoy in service with the IAF’s Mirage 2000s.
Additional description of the MILDS-F
MAWS is given below.
Below are schematics of typical ASW and
ASV mission profiles to be flown by 10-/12-tonne multi-role shipborne helicopters.
Lastly, uploaded below are the
performance parameters of Sikorsky’s MH-92 Superhawk MRH, which is being
proposed along with the AgustaWestland AW-101 for the Indian Navy’s requirement
for twenty-four 12-tonne MRHs, which will be deployed on board the projected
four LPHs, as well as on the three Project 15A and four Project 15B DDGs.
94 comments:
To RAD: India may perhaps well be the only country where a commission of enquiry mandated to conduct a detailed investigation into the lapses & conduct of wartime operations can at best only limit itself to ‘what went wrong’ without even bothering to spell out ‘who all’ consequently ‘went wrong’. Thus, the ‘Kargil Review Committee’ was a near-total farce. Just consider the following:
1) Why the hell did both the then CAS IAF (ACM A Y Tipnis) & EAM Jaswant Singh insist that they wanted permission from the Govt of India for the employment of combat aircraft for close air support? To me, this is a non-issue because all offensive air operations were to be flown INSIDE Indian territory/airspace (since the political directive was not to violate the LoC by entering Pakistan-controlled airspace) & therefore the question of seeking GoI’s approval for offensive employment of airpower within sovereign Indian airspace should never have arisen.
2) The Indian Army was EXTREMELY STUPID to ask for close air support from the IAF's armed helicopters like M-17s (either equipped with flares countermeasures or devoid of them) on any day after May 21 (the day an IAF Canberra PR-57 from 106 squadron was shot at by a FIM-92 Stinger MANPADS/CSHORADS over Batalik) simply because at such altitudes a slow-flying & unmanoeuvrable helicopter, even when equipped with countermeasures (flares) dispensers, would be a dead duck when engaged by a volley (up to 7) of MANPADS/VSHORADS, especially since it emerged since May 21 that the Pakistani intruders were armed with such anti-aircraft weapons. Therefore, both the then COAS & VCOAS, as well as the then AOC-in-C Western Command displayed surprising ignorance about the vulnerabilities of helicopter operations in such forbidding heights.
3) The mere fact that MANPADS had been used against the IAF on May 21 should have firmly indicated beyond a shadow of doubt that the infiltrators were not Kashmiri Mujahideen (who never ever had access to any MANPADS), but were in fact regular foot-soldiers of the Pakistan Army.
To me, some of the real heroes of the IAF’s OP Safed Sagar was the team headed by the then Director of Air Operations(Offensive), Air Commodore Subhash Bhojwani, who, after being unceremoniously replaced as the IAF spokesman within 72 hours of OP Safed Sagar, had by May 29 discovered, even though belatedly, that a single RAFAEL-built Litening-2 LDP was lying idle at the facilities of the IAF’s Bengaluru-based ASTE (it had arrived a few months earlier for systems integration with the Mirage 2000 and Jaguar IS). With the permission of his immediate superior, Air Vice Marshal S K Malik, the then Additional Assistant Chief-of-Air Staff (Operations), Bhojwani on May 30, through the Indian DA at the Indian Embassy in Israel, sent a most-urgent SOS to Israel’s Ministry of Defence and through it to RAFAEL immediately re-assemble the Israeli team of systems integrators (who had flown back to Israel by May 19, 1999 for taking part in the annual Shavout festivities) back in Bengaluru so that the lone Litening-2 LDP could be integrated with a Mirage 2000TH on a war-footing (similar to what the RAF did with the Ferranti-built TIALD LDP in early 1991 during OP Desert Storm). This was achieved by June 20 & new weapons delivery techniques were quickly developed & validated by TACDE at a hastily improvised instrumented weapons delivery range off Nainital. It was the result of all this that on the night of June 24, 1999 the Pakistani intruders on Tiger Hill top were hit with a 1,000lb Paveway-2 LGB that was launched by a Litening-2 LDP-equipped No7 Sqn Mirage 2000TH from No7 Sqn.
Prasun,
wrt the AW-101 and MH-92 competition for 24 helos, does this mean there are 3/4 ongoing competions for helos of the IN? We have the recent one for 56 N-LUHs, then there is the ongoing one for the 16 ASW helos where NH-90 and S-70B, then there is paradoxically the competion for 75 ASW helos for replcemnt of Sea Kings where NH-90 and the MH-60R are in the fray now we have ANOTHER copetion for the 24 12 tonne helos either the AW-101 of MH-92?? Certainly is a buying spree, I guess the result of decades of neglect and financial constrints.
What exactly is the role of the 24 12 tonne helos for LPHs and Kolkata DDGs? ASW? Transport? Why couldn't the S-70B/NH-90/MH-60R just be bought in 24 more units to fill this role?
Will these helos come custimised for SOF-support ops with IFR probes and the such?
What helos will replace the current SOAR IN SeaKings helos that are used to support MARCOs? Will these helos be specilised for SOF-support missions?
What exactly is the standard IAF M2ks are being upgraded to? M2k-5 mk2 or M2k-9? And can you give details of the upgrade like what exactly are the addtions and upgrad consisitng of? And will a HMDS be standard on the IAF M2K UPGs?
Is the UPG being given to IAF M2Ks unique to the IAF or has it been applied elsewhere?
Do you think the awarding of the M2K was a precursor to the MMRCA going Dassualt's way? Was there more to the M2K UPG than meets the eye in this respect? Did the French lower the price to help secure the MMRCA?
Will the IAF od anything to address the fact that 2 two-seat M2K trainers have been lost? Surely this will affect pilot training?
Do you think the M2K UPG is money well spent or would you think it would have been money better spent scrapping the UPG and going for a few extra MMRCAs?
42 Smerch-M MBRLs ?? I heard 62 systems and more to be ordered ??
Sir,
Is'nt the PaveWay-2 built around a 500 lb M82 bomb?
To UNKNOWN: Here’s the breakdown:
56 Light twin-engined LUHs tendered out for replacing existing SA.316B Alouette IIIs. Bell 429 and A-109Power are in the fray.
16 x 10-tonne MRHs tendered out. 32 more to be procured in successive tranches. Contenders are S-70B & AS.565 Panther. MH-60R & NH-90 are not in the fray.
24 x 12-tonne MRHs for which RFIs have been issued. MH-92 Superhawk & AW-101 are the only two contenders.
Avionics upgrades for Ka-28PLs & Sea King Mk42Bs cancelled. Ka-28Pls will be replaced by 10-tonne MRhs while the Sea King Mk42Bs & Mk42Cs will be replaced by 12-tonne MRHs.
12-tonne MRHs have heavier MTOWs & are the best bet for expeditionary warfare & ASW/ASV screening for carrier battle groups. 10-tinne MRHs are for suitable mostly for task-force protection. IFR probes are useless for naval MRHs since the IN does not have integral shipborne aerial refuelling aircraft.
The IAF’s Mirage 2000UPGs will be upgraded to Mk9 standard. HMDS is now MANDATORY for ALL combat aircraft except the Jaguar IS & MiG-27UPG, which employ NVGs. In my view, the Mirage 2000UPG & MiG-29UPG projects are a waste of resources, and what ought to have been done instead was to phase them out of service by 2018, PROVIDED the M-MRCA competition had been formally kicked off in 2005 (instead of 2008) & the numbers to be procured had been increased to 220. It always pays to streamline & rationalise one’s combat aircraft assets, instead of clinging on to a multiplicity of platforms.
To BRADSHAW: Only 42 Smerch-Ms have been ordered to date, since the DRDO had claimed in 2007 that it too would develop a 300mm MBRL with 120km-range.
To PENMIL: For the US, yes. The IAF never procured any Mk82 bombs, but merely procured the Paveway-2 laser guidance kits for adaptation to its OFB-produced 1,000lb gravity bombs.
I guess being a former Army man mr Jaswant Singh knew very well that J&K is a disputed territory hence to be safe he wanted center's permission .
regarding this deal procuring critical components off the self doesn't make any sense . but this is what India is known for and this DRDO ... what to say about this govt organisation ...
To DASHU: By Jaswant Singh’s own admission, he had then stated that since he was due to make some official visits abroad, he did not ‘want complications’ or did not want to answer uncomfortable questions! Since when has propounding national point-of-view become ‘uncomfortable’? The fact therefore remains that the then NDA govt was desperately trying to avoid coming to grips with reality, since the reality would have destroyed all the diplomatic gains that the NDA govt had then claimed to have achieved via the Lahore Declaration.
In any JV between India & a foreign OEM (be it from any country), all critical components will ALWAYS have to be imported, be it for the BrahMos or Smerch-M. And the DRDO will inevitably ALWAYS lay claim to explore ‘indigenous alternatives’ & promise to deliver them more than a decade later. Someone should ask Dr V K Saraswat why is the Pinaka Mk1 MBRL using fully imported SAGEM-built Sigma-30 ring laser gyro-based inertial navigation system (RLG-INS) for land navigation when the DRDO claims that it has developed indigenous RLG-INS for ballistic missiles, cruise missiles & NLOS-BSMs. Why are the Tejas Mk1s, Su-30MKIs, Jaguar IS/DARIN-3, MiG-27UPG & MiG-29UPG (and in future the Mirage 2000UPG) all using imported SAGEM-built Sigma-95N RLG-INS instead of the DRDO-developed RLG-INS?
Does IAF uses python 4 IR guided missiles.If yes than on which aircraft?? Wiki says IAF has Python-4 (100 missiles, delivered 2007).
Prasun,
wrt the Naval helo procurements, how do you square away what you just said:
"56 Light twin-engined LUHs tendered out for replacing existing SA.316B Alouette IIIs. Bell 429 and A-109Power are in the fray.
16 x 10-tonne MRHs tendered out. 32 more to be procured in successive tranches. Contenders are S-70B & AS.565 Panther. MH-60R & NH-90 are not in the fray.
24 x 12-tonne MRHs for which RFIs have been issued. MH-92 Superhawk & AW-101 are the only two contenders.
Avionics upgrades for Ka-28PLs & Sea King Mk42Bs cancelled. Ka-28Pls will be replaced by 10-tonne MRhs while the Sea King Mk42Bs & Mk42Cs will be replaced by 12-tonne MRHs."
With what has been reported.
1) You said NH-90 was not i the fray, but plenty of articles contradict this view:
http://www.defenseworld.net/go/defensenews.jsp?id=6364
http://www.defencenow.com/news/452/nh-90-complains-against-sikorsky-in-mrh-deal.html
Given this deal is very close to being signed irt the NH-90/S-70B compition there shouldn't be so much ambiguity around should there?
2) The numbers you have mentioned ie 48 for S-70B type helo does not corrolate to the 75+ figure being thrown around for NMRHs:
http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/navy-looking-to-buy-75-helicopters-for-four-billion-dollars-194729
3) The AW-101/MH-92 procurement, I cannot find a single source to confirm that either helo is contention to join the IN or have even been considered.
It is all very confusing and it just shouldn't be, should it?
Hi Prasun, what is the logic behind having a JV with Russia to produce Smerch rockets indigenously when only 42 Smerch systems have been ordered? Is it cheaper to produce them in India than off the shelf supply from Russia ? Does IA plans to procure more Smerch systems from Russia and in huge nos.Why isnt the Smerch rocket guided ? It is a big rocket and Russians can eaily fit a mmr or IIR terminal seeker into it for pinpoint accuracy . And uptil now , why havent they come up with a 120 km version .
Besides AW-101 VVIP helicopters , doesnt the MILDS-F MAWS are also fitted on Rudra mk4 helicopter gunships, Mi-17v5 ? Doesnt both Rudra and Mi-17v5 have IR,Chaff dispensers;maws;rwr;IR jammer as part of its defensive suite ? With the rapid proliferation of IR missiles and MAWS maws are a must for all aircrafts especially helicopters so that the pilot can be alerted about an incoming missile and its direction of approach so as to employ evasive manuvers.Besides Mi-17v5 , Mi-17v1 as well as all IA , IAF Dhruvs must be fitted with maws,countermeasures dispensers, rwr , jammers. One must learn from mistakes. Even after the incidents of Kargil war if IAF and IA fail to do so, it will be a matter of great shame.
Which surface serach radar,sonar,EO systems do MH-92,S-70 have ?
Sir, I have a few queries.
1. Flares have been in use for a long time and so are infrared guided missiles. Today's infrared missiles have sophisticated seekers such as IIR.How can flares decoy,jam,saturate these highly advanced seekers.
2. All modern IR missiles also ahve built in ICCM. Those that dont have IIR seekers have IR seekers with a UV filter. Now to jam these threats flares need to emit UV radiations. Now does flares do so. Also missiles of today are able to discriminate flares from their targets. How are flares able to deal with this? Have their manufactures using new chemicals for producing UV radiations and altering the basic design .
3.MILDS-F is UV based. Now UV based MAWS have various disadvantages such as
a.To detect approaching missiles, the rocket motor of the missile must be burning - it requires the high effective burning temperatures associate with solid fuel rocket motors.
b.IR based systems probably better at altitude but UV better against surface to air missiles.
c.Cannot provide actual range information but can derive TTI from the rapid increase in amplitude of the approaching missile’s signal.
d.Detection range could be limited against future new technology low IR/UV emission rocket motors.
So what are the likely solutions to this .
4. Why isnt IAF fitting out its fleet of MiL Mi-17v5 with MAWS and other elements of a modern state of art IDS ??
Fitting RWR, flares chaff dispensrss but no MAWS is outright disastrous.
MANPADS are relative short range weapons, typically up to about five kilometers with the heart of the kill envelope one to three kilometers. They therefore allow very little margin for error to effectively counter them as the time to impact (TTI) on a target at one kilometer, is only about three seconds. The TTI for targets at three and five kilometers is also relatively short – only seven to a little over eleven seconds respectively.
The MAW must therefore provide reliable and timely warning to allow appropriate counter measure responses. Near 100% probability of warning (POW) and very fast reaction times to counter nearby missile launches (in the order of one second) are therefore essential.Also they provide valuable AoA and range information .
Currently we are hearing a lot about Tejas that it gonna get FOC in feb 2013 and will participate in war game also ... how is that possible ??? high AOA issues got resolved ?
To KSINGH: If you were to accept what’s been coming out from ‘desi’ news reports, the situation will always be as confusing as ever. Instead, one ought to go on the basis of official on-the-record statements & interviews of OEM officials involved in the bidding processes. Thus, according to EUROCOPTER, the AS.565 Panther is on offer for the 10-tonne MRH reqmt, and not the NH-90. The deal is quite some away from signing. Similarly, the figure of 75 being touted is for MRHs (both 10-tonne & 12-tonne), and not for 10-tonne MRHs only. Therefore, the total no of MRHs being asked for is 16 + 32 +24. As for the reqmt for AW-101/MH-92, you need to read up the In-issued RFI for the four LPHs. Things do get confusing because in 99.9% of the cases the ‘desi’ news reporters/journalists overlook the details, within which the devil always lurks.
To RAHUL: There’s no logic at all, even if the Smerch-M MBRLs are procured in greater numbers (which is doubtful, since the DRDO will veto it). SPLAV does produce GPS-guided rockets containing sensor-fuzed munitions but these have not been acquired as yet by the IA. 120km-range MBRL rockets of 300mm barrel diameter are available only from China. Only the Rudra has MAWS, not the Mi-17V-5. I had explained some time back that those helicopters like Mi-17s will be used only for rear-area logistics & therefore will never be exposed to hostile AAA. Only the Rudras will come face to face with hostile AAA as they will be flying ahead of the armoured columns & will therefore always be in the forefront of the contact battles. MH-92s & S-70Bs have the same Telephonics search radars & L-3 FLIR turrets as those on board the P-8Is.
To Anon@7.57PM: Your Q.1 was already answered some time back. As for Q.2, flares launched in saturation mode will successfully decoy any existing UUR-guided AAM. AS for Q.3, MAWS is meant for use primarily against SAMs. Have already answered Q.4 above.
To DASHU: It’s impossible to acquire FOC by February 2013. CofA maybe, but definitely not FOC. It wonlt participate in any war games, but only in the Vayu Shakti-series of firepower demos.
PRASUN SIR
I WANT TO ASK FOLLOWING QUESTION
1- IS LCA IS 4+ GENERATION FIGHTER
2-IS LCA IS COMPARABLE TO J10
3-INDIA IS ISSUING NEW RFP FOR REPLACING ITS AVRO AIRCRAFTS.I WANT TO KNOW CONTENDERS OF THAT RFP.AMONG THEM WHICH IS BEST FOR INDIA
4- AFTER ARRIVING C17 WHAT INDIA DO WITH IL-76
5- IS SUPER SUKHOI PROGRAME IS FOR WHOLE FLEET FOR INDIA OR ITS ONLY FOR LAST 42 AIRCRAFTS WHICH LASTLY DELIVERED.
6- WILL INDIA BUY MAHINDRA AXE AS LIGHT UTILITY VEHICLE..
7-WILL INDIA BUY T-90MS FOR ITS ARSENSAL OR UPGRADE ITS T90 TANKS TO THAT STANDARD..& IS T90 MS IS BEST TANLK SUITS FOR INDIAN SITUATION...& PLS GIVE SOME UPDATE ON FMBT &LCA MK2..
SIR PLS GIVE ANSWER OF THIS QUESTION
@Prasun da
a few things
1. JV to just manufacture rockets for Smerch M (42 as by you, 62 as by others) that too with 30% of parts to be supplied by Russian firm) I think there is more to what then meets the eye, why?
a. $1 billion Smerch ammo JV deal when there is no chance to make it or sell it in large numbers to other nations doesnt make sense, even Brahmos has chance to export, isnt it
b. I believe $1 billion Smerch ammo JV with TOT possibly masks the help DRDO of India needs to develop its version of Smerch M
c. I believe India will go for the 6 barrel lighter version of Smerch M which is transportable by C17 for use by MSC
2. If not wrong, you said earlier the Wheeled howitzer deal was dead, i guess it got punarjnam?
3. there was some talk of 3 more Scorpenes to be made after the present 6, has that idea been killed?
hope to get your views
thanks
Joydeep Ghosh
HI Prasun
What is happening to the MTA multirole transport aircraft . This talk has been going on for decades and yet nothing has come out ,we hear reports that it is going to be signed endlessly . More over i doubt HAL has the man power or infrastructure to manufacture them , and as usual will corner the deal and give the forces lame duck excuses when it comes to delivery or quality related issues.Why cant the gov give the private sector a try .Both india and russia are known for the same quality and mismanaging projects which is a deadly combo wheras china is diff and pak is learning a lot from them .
To ASHI JAIN: All those questions were repeatedly answered in several threads both last year & this year.
To JOYDEEP GHOSH: 42 Smerch-Ms as per the GoI’s CAG report, as quoted by me, & not as per me. Why should there be more to it than what meets the eye? JVs are created for a very specific purpose, i.e. polling the manufacturing resources of the two parties. That’s why for BrahMos Aerospace, the propulsion & guidance systems come directly from Russia, while the navigation system is of Indian origin. Furthermore, had the BrahMos missile really been destined for export out of India, then by now Vietnam would have acquired it instead of Bastion, wouldn’t it? The fact remains that BrahMos is an India-specific weapon & that’s why since February 2001 no one else, not even Russia, has acquired it. The Smerch-M JV includes ToT ONLY FOR in-country production of rocket-rounds. There’s no ToT for technological spinoffs falling into the DRDO’s lap. That’s why the DRDO is not included as a stakeholder in the JV. Nor is there any provision for additional Smerch-M TELs being acquired by India, be it six-barrel, 10-barrel or 12-barrel. Regarding wheeled howitzers, have you read the RFI? If not, then kindly do so & all your questions will be answered. Firstly, the term wheeled howitzers includes motorised howitzers & all indications are that a motorised truck-mounted howitzer will be chosen. Why? Logic dictates that the Army will no longer evaluate the only sole armoured wheeled howitzer—Slovakia’s Konštrukta SpGH Zuzana—since there’s no other competitor in that category, as the Rheinmetall-built RWG-52 is no longer under contention (due to the company being blacklisted). Consequently, the previous plans of pitting the Zuzana against the RWG-52 is no longer feasible today. Consequently, the 45-calibre Zuzana (there’s no 52-cal version of the Zuzana as yet) will likely emerge inferior to the likes of Caesar, ATMOS & NORA, all three of which have 52-cal barrels.
The idea of acquiring three more Scorpenes has not been killed, since the Project 75I deal won’t be inked until 2016 at the very least due to acute financial constraints.
To RAD: The IL-214 MRTA project is making slow but gradual progress. HAL does not have the trained manpower & manufacturing infractructure reqd for producing this aircraft in-country, & will probably have to build a brand-new industrial facility under a Greenfield project for undertaking final assembly of the IL-214. And when this is reqd, as we all know from previous experience, land acquisition from state govts & seeking financial approvals & sanctions from the MoD are all excruciatingly lengthy processes. The same goes for HAL’s proposed greenfield project for setting up a new helicopter manufacturing hub in Bidar. While the IAF would like HAL to form industrial consortiums/JVs with the private sector in an attempt to accelerate matters/processes, the MoD has to accommodate the vested interests of entities like the INTUC, AITUC & CITU, all of whom want to have the cake & eat it as well! Consequently, the private-sector will be called in only as sub-contracting vendors, and not as risk-sharing industrial partners. Consequently, it will eventually become increasingly cost-prohibitive to undertake local manufacture of products like combat/transport aircraft, just as it is the case with the in-country production of new-generation warships.
Do read this: http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article3836618.ece?homepage=true
Later, in 1986 Indian troops discovered that Chinese troops had crossed the Thagla ridge, and built permanent barracks as well as a helipad on a key feature.“I recall accompanying Ambassador K.P.S. Menon to lodge a protest with the then Chinese Assistant Foreign Minister,” Mr. Saran said, “and being witness to a most undiplomatic, offensive and vituperative harangue by the latter.” K Sundarji, India’s Army Chief, meanwhile used India’s new strategic airlift capabilities to move troops to occupy parallel positions—setting up posts just 10 metres from the new Chinese positions. India’s own political leadership, Mr. Saran said, was taken by surprise by the mercurial General Sundarji’s actions—and the Chinese infuriated. However, he argued, the operation paid off. “While we may not have planned it this way, the Chinese judged our actions through their own prism: that we had countered their unexpected move by a well orchestrated counter move of our own.” “The lesson to be drawn,” Mr. Saran concluded, “is not that we should be militarily provocative but that we should have enough capabilities deployed to convince the other side that aggressive moves would invite counter-moves.”
The above is only half the story. What happened (based on my personal first-hand account recollections) was that in the midst of EX Checker Board (following the conclusion of EX BRASS TACKS), an IB detachment responsible for monitoring the border observation posts of both India & China discovered in the first quarter of 1987 that the outposts in the valley of Sumdorong Chu had been occupied by PLA Border Defence Regiment personnel, & two helipads had been constructed by the PLA for the newly-delivered Sikorsky S-70 Black Hawks in service with the PLA’s Army Aviation (these helicopters were all equipped with Israel-supplied night-navigation equipment). To counter this, Gen Sundarji launched OP TRIDENT under which the IA’s Eastern Command commenced a massive build-up of hardware (like the first arrivals from Sweden of the FH-77Bs that were sent by rail straight to Tawang, plus massive heli-lifts of 155mm & 130mm ammo stocks) in an arc surrounding the PLA presence in that valley, & once that was completed, Army HQ ordered the then GOC-in-C eastern Command, Lt Gen V N Sharma, to forcibly evict the PLA garrisons from Sumdorong Chu. This is when the shit hit the fan, as Lt Gen V N Sharma asked Gen Sundarji for instructions on follow-up actions in case the PLA, in retaliation, would decide to employ tactical nuclear weapons. Both IA HQ & the GoI were totally unprepared for this scenario (since India had not yet embarked on a nuclear weaponisation programme) & were therefore faced with an enormous debacle. Consequently, there was no other option for India, but to blink first. Subsequently, liaison channels between R & AW and China PSB were activated for arriving at a mutually acceptable de-escalation/draw-down schedule. But Sumdorong Chu was permanently lost to the PLA without even a bullet being fired in anger by India.
Everyone keeps telling that Rehinmettal has been blacklisted...But it is Rehinmettal air defence(RAD) that has been blacklisted...RAD is based in switzerland and Rehinmettal in germany...RAD is a subsidy of rehinmettal.Whther MOD wants to so bussiness with rehinmrttal or not..that s a deifferent question.But as far as I know..Rehinmetral is legally eligible to take part in the tender for RWG52
The parent company has been blacklisted, not just its RAD subsidiary, just as is the case with the DENEL Group, and not just its Denel Land Systems subsidiary.
Prasun sir, you have stated previously that Block-3 BrahMos has a range of 550km, how can this be? Doesn't it violate MTCR? If not then how come block-1/2 have range of only 290km?
1.sir, do you have any info on how does the shivalik class compares with the PLAN's type 054A type frigates.
and PLAN seems to be arming it's type 051c and 052b DDG with S300,HHQ-9 SAMs with ranges from 150km to 200km for area defence but is it practically possible to guide a SAM to a target 200km away(not just detect)by ship's radars(i was under the impression this was not possible due to the Earth's curvature).
2. have the first batch of su-30mki left for russia for their super 30 upgrade as they were supposed to leave this year?
Sir,
1. MAWS isnt primarily meant for SAM. It is also meant for lowflying non agile aircrafts like helos for protection against MANPADS. If it wasnt so, then so many helos such as all European transport choppers , gunships, US choppers such as Chinook, Blackhawk wouldnt have MAWS as part of IDAS.
2. U have yourself stated many a times that a 3rd of IAF Mil Mi-17v5 will have an IDAS suite including MAWS.
"In the AW-101’s case the IDAS includes a combined radar/laser warning receiver package that includes the Tarang Mk3 (developed by the DRDO’s Bengaluru-based Defence Avionics Research Establishment—DARE—and built by Bharat Electronics Ltd) and a laser warning receiver from SaabTech of Sweden, the AAR-60(V)2 MILDS-F MAWS from Germany-based Cassidian, and chaff/flare countermeasures dispensers from Vinten of UK. In fact, this very IDAS suite has also been selected for installation on the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd-built Dhruv Mk4 (Rudra) helicopter gunship and the Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), and will also be retrofitted in-country on to a third of the 139 Mi-17V-5 armed utility helicopters now being delivered to the IAF by Russia’s Tatarstan-based Kazan Helicopter Plant. These retrofitted Mi-17V-5s will also be equipped with ELBIT Systems-built C-MUSIC missile countermeasures turrets (see photo below for the installation area). "
So 6 months back you ahve been saying one thing and now a different thing. You have been contradicting yourself by once saying that they will have maws. A third of Mil Mi-17 and now they wont have maws . So among these two statements which one shall people belief ?
3. In many of your comments you have repeatedly stated that Mi-17v5 will have the same IDAS as the one on AW-101.
To Unknown: Only those Mi-17V-5s meant to fly within the combat zone will come fitted with IDAS and IAI/TAMAM-built FLIR pods, while those employed for rear-area logistics will not. The same applies to the Rudra, Dhruv Mk4 & upgraded An-32Bs.
All the Mi-17v5 will come equipped with wiring & fitments reqd to host an IR jammer and all Mi-17V-5s will have on-board countermeasures dispensers. But only those Mi-17V-5s tasked with armed air-assault missions will be fitted with RWRs & MAWS & FLIR turret. If during wartime the unprotected Mi-17V5 are needed for frontline duties or troop transport then what will the IAF do? It will do exactly what it did in mid-1999 in Kargil, and after suffering attrition loses, will cease to use them in that manner.
So after some time u will again start telling a different tale and contradicting the ones u are telling now.
4. Regarding MAWS you have provided the ans previously. You said that all modern MAWS are UV/IR based to overcome the deficiencies faced by each band. But in the posters you have posted about MILDS-F MAWS, it is clearly given that it is a UV based system. Not a dual one. So am asking it .
Hi Prasun, how many S-92 will be carried on a single destroyer ? How many Sea Kings are currently in IN service ? Is 24 S-92 sufficient for replacing the existing Seaking
Why has the planned upgrade of Seaking & Ka-28 been cancelled. In the upgrade they will be fitted with Selex AESA surface search radar . Why cant the Americans provide an AESA radar as part of S-92 ? AESA radars are better . Howw many sonobuoys will it carry? The no carried as shown in the figure is very small. Is dipping sonar an active sonar or passive or both.
When will these helicopters be aquired ?
How many mareech launchers are fitted on a FFG,DDG ?
Whats the progress on Pinbaka mk2, 120 km sam ?
VMT for answering .
Hey ,
Telephonics APS-153 radar is already available which provides better range , imaging. Why cant navy go for it if S-92 is selected ?
Hi Prasun da
Few questions
1)The IAF s fleet of strike fighters mainly comprise of Jaguars and Mig 27...But these are obsolete machines..I dont know why the IAF is going for rengining the jaguars...Do u think that there is a need for long range strike attack fighters like the boeing F 15 strike or silent eagle..or the rafales can do the same job
Thanks in advance
Sir, Two IAF’s Mi-17 Choppers have a Mid-air collisions in Gujarat, 9 killed
How can 2 airforce choppers collide with each other in open skies . havent the pilots been imparted enough training? Do you think that airforce will order an xtra 2 Mi17v5 as replacements for crashed ones. When will follow on contract for 59 more Mi17 be inked ?
1) Why exactly did the Govt of India not authorise the then Indian Army COAS Gen K Sundarji's request for forcibly evicting the PLA from Sumdorong Chu in early 1987?
2) Why the then GOC-in-C Eastern Command, Lt Gen V N Sharma (who later on became the COAS), expressed his inability to mount such a limited offensive campaign?
3) Why Rajiv Gandhi decided to make an official trip to Beijing in 1988?
4) What was the connection between EX Brass Tacks (in the west) & OP Falcon (in the east)?
5) Did India's armed forces knew all along that the prospects of waging concurrent wars along two fronts were always there since the early 1960s, but it was India's political decision-makers that persistently failed to grasp this reality?
6) Whay was India's covert nuclear weaponisation effort given the formal go-ahead in only 1990?
--------------
after a lot of googling finally I got some of the answers of these above 6 Questions you have posted eirlier except the 4th one
The MH-92 brochure posted here is available on net from 2008.
http://www.sikorsky.com/StaticFiles/Sikorsky/Assets/Attachments/Mission%20Downloads/S92-065%20May%202008.pdf
To Anon@4.58PM: Yes, it does violate MTCR, so what? MTCR is a collective regime of a few countries, & is not a binding treaty that is internationally ratified. That’s why the US is free to export its T-LAMs to countries like the UK. BrahMos-1’s Blocks 1/2 are not reqd to have a 550km-range since A) the IN does not have the kind of OTHT capabilities reqd for providing mid-course targetting updates for BrahMos-1 Block 1, & 2) BrahNos-1’s Block 2 is meant for use against a country with an elongated geography & therefore an engagement envelope of 550km isn’t necessary.
To HOODS: The Project 17 FFGs are all gas turbine-powered, whereas the Type 054/54As aren’t. Secondly, the former comes armed with 220km-range 3M54E supersonic ASCMs, whereas the latter has only 120km-range C-802As. In terms of SAMs, both FFGs are evenly matched. The former has both cannon- & missile-based CIWS, whereas the latter has only cannon-based CIWS. Lastly, the former will in future receive ultra low-frequency active/passive towed-array sonars & shipborne MRHs equipped with
ultra low-frequency active/passive dunking sonar, whereas for the latter mid-frequency towed-array & dunking sonars are used.
The naval LR-SAMs you’ve mentioned are meant for use against high-flying UAVs & bombers like B-1B & B-52. The Super Su-30MKI upgrade programme will be performed locally & no airframe will be reqd to be sent to Russia.
To Anon@6.41PM: All right, let’s set the record straight once & for all for your benefit. Firstly, MANPADS too is a SAM. Secondly, only those helicopters used for CSAR & special operations Like the MH-60 & MH-47E have comprehensive IDAS suites. Evcen till this day, not all frontline present-generation utility/attack helicopters have MAWS or DIRCM. Thirdly, all the Mi-17v5 will come equipped with wiring & fitments reqd to host an IR jammer (C-MUSIC) and all Mi-17V-5s will have on-board countermeasures dispensers. But only those Mi-17V-5s tasked with armed air-assault missions & CSAR (comprising a third of the total projected Mi-17V-5 fleet) will be fitted with RWRs & MAWS & FLIR turret, plus the C-MUSIC DIRCM. Those Mi-17V-5s & Mi-171s that are not equipped with such a self-protection suite will be used purely for rear-area air logistics.
To RAHUL. Only one 12-tonne MRH & one LIH will be on-board a DDG. 18 Sea King Mk42Bs & six Mk42Cs are now in service. 24 is more than enough for the projected fleets of DDGs & LPHs of the IN. The Sea King Mk42Bs & Ka-28PLs have over the years become quite expensive to be maintained in airworthy condition as they were acquired in the mid-1980s & therefore have to be replaced by 2020. Therefore, even if tyhey’re upgraded with new mission avionics suites, maintenance of the airframes & engines will become cost-prohibitive over the next 8 years. Dipping/dunking sonar is always best used in the active mode.
To Anon@7.17PM: It is always the customer’s choice when it comes to specifying the mission sensor suite. At the time of decision-making, the best there is will be selected, it is hoped.
To Anon@7.29PM: The MiG-27UPG is clearly approaching obsolescence due to growing unavailability of spares. But not the Jaguar IS, for which spares are available in plenty. That’s the reason why the Jaguar IS units are being subjected to a deep upgrade inclusive of re-engining. For long-range strike the Su-30MKI & in future Super Su-30MKI are more than up to the task. And if one were to equip the upgraded Jaguar IS, Mirage 2000UPG and Tejas Mk2 with ALCMs like Taurus KEPD-350, then the long-range precision strike capability of the IAF will increase manifold.
To SAYAN: It is said that every air accident is a unique & freak incident, & the latest mid-air collision is no exception. Only a proper BoI will reveal the truth. The crashed helicopters wrer not Mi-17V-5s to the best of my knowledge, but Mi-171s, based on the visuals shown on TV. Follow-on Mi-17V-5 contract will be inked next year.
Hi prasunda
Few queries:
1)Why has nt the US so far cleared the sale of Arrow ABM to India despite pressure from Isreal to sell it
2)Between THAAD, PAC 3 and S400 , which one do u think suits India best
3)Recently I saw a report on Aviation week website that the US is willing to offer land based Raytheon SM3 ABM to india...can u thro some light on it
Thanks.....
Sir , very very very very thanx . Yes now the records right . And your present statement puts everything right and in place an doesn't contradict anything . So your previously said facts are true . Thanx very much. That's why we ask you . THANX.
Sad to hear about the collision of 2 Mil-17 helicopters ... RIP Soldiers
Are they the V5 conf recently purchased or the older ones?
To DASHU: While EX BRASS TACKS was a multiple Corps-level exercise held in mid-1986 along the India-Pakistan border and which was tri-services in character & content, EX CHECKER BOARD was the follow-on Corps-level exercise involving HQ Eastern Command & the IAF’s Eastern Air Command. OP TRIDENT was the contingency plan prepared & rehearsed by HQ Eastern Command since the late-1970s & was therefore put into effect quite rapidly when the need arose in the last quarter of 1986. It is believed by India that the PRC was actually testing the then GoI’s political resolve to accept the prospect of a two-front war at a time when some of the frontline army formations of both India & Pakistan were still staring eyeball-to-eyeball in the plains of Punjab, Jammu & the Thar/Cholistan deserts. It was after the debacle at Sumdorong Chu that the GoI gave the formal go-ahead to the DAE & DRDO to undertake full-scale nuclear weaponisation, so that in the event of another faceoff between China & India, the latter would not have to fight with one hand tied behind her back.
Am truly glad that you remembered to dig out the six questions I had posed earlier. At last, the answers are now out in this thread. VMT indeed.
To Anon@11.11PM: VMT. By the way, it seems that the two ill-fated Mi-171s were practicing a low-level straffing run in preparation for a forthcoming amphibious exercise along the Saurashtra coastline involving an Army ‘marine’ battalion. Obviously, some new & previously untested straffing tactics were being tried out when the accident took place.
To Anon@11.07PM: I don’t think the US has blocked Israel from selling the Arrow ATBM to India. Had that been the case, then even the two EL/M-2080 Green Pine wouldn’t have landed inside India. My inference, therefore, is that it was the DRDO that prevented the arrival of Arrow-2 missiles in India since the DRDO wanted to be in the driver’s seat & develop a two-tier TMD system. Between the three, a THAAD-type capability is definitely in need. Even if the US is willing to export the SM-3 to India, where will it exactly be located? On which naval platform? I don’t see any naval platform that’s available to host the SM-3.
Prasun, yes they blocked the missiles citing the MTCR. Nicholas burns articulated the position in 2002. It was pathetic. I guess coming during Op Parakaram who knows ?
As unsatisfactory as it is, PDV is the only way foward.
From Anon@11.07 PM
Hi Prasun da
The US did block the sale of Arrow missile to India way back in 2000.The green pine radars were built with israeli technology..So US has no say over them ...But the interceptors and Command & control is built with US tech and funding..
Regarding the SM 3....it is installed in naval platforms presently , But the US plans to have a land based platform.RAYTHEON has aready been contracted for this. US planned to have such base in Poland..but later dropped due to heavy resistence from Russia
To SBM & Anon@1.24AM: As the entire ARROW R & D effort (including the Green Pine) was bankrolled by the US, the US did have the right to dictate the ARROW’s export prospects, & in all probability the MTCR guidelines were thrust upon Israel sometime in 1998 itself (instead of 2002), since it was at that time that R & D efforts for PAD & AAD were initiated. The two Green Pines arrived in India in late 2001. And if MTCR is the stumbling block, then even the SM-3 ATBM would be a no-go for India, irregardless of what Raytheon might say. In today’s circumstances, it would be unwise to resort to imported ATBM solutions, since a lot of financial investment has been made by the DRDO in its projected TMD system. If at all the US wants to have a share of this pie (once it gets deployed in its operational configuration) then the only realistic way to achieve this is through joint R & D & co-production of components like terminal seekers for PDV & AD-1/2 interceptors, plus joint development of a regional missile monitoring system comprising a constellation of four/six missile launch early warning satellites owned by India & located in geo-stationary orbit.
Have the heavy MBRL's like Smerch or M-270 etc ever fought effectively in any good war except some sporadic battles. Although theoretically they appear to be too much devastating.
Is it possible that the Smerch rockets made by Indo-Russian JV can be used for the Pinaka-2 purported to be developed by DRDO. Otherwise DRDO have to develop different rockets and manufacture them somewhere else. Thanx!
Hi Prasun da
Can u pls tell the difference betwen external and conformual fuel tanks..There respective advantages and disadvantages...
To Mr.RA 13: The M-270 MLRS has been used by the US & UK since OP Desert Storm of early 1991 & during OP Iraqi Freedom. In don’t recollect the Smerch-M MBRL being used in anger against anyone by anyone thus far. The Pinaka Mk2 MBRL is supposed to have an engagement range till 60km but its barrels won’t have a 300mm diameter & therefore the Smerch-M’s rockets won’t be compatible with the Pinaka Mk2 MBRL. But in case the Pinaka Mk3 with 120km-range (reportedly under development by the ARDE) employs 300mm barrels, then the Smerch-M’s range of rockets can be used.
Ro Anon@2.32PM: External tanks are those that are underslung under the aircraft’s wings or are belly-mounted. Conformal tanks are an extension of the aircraft’s airframe & are typically carried either on the aircraft’s over-wing sections (in case of F-16C/D/E/F, Rafale & EF-2000), or under-wing sections as in case of the F-15 Strike eagle/Silent Eagle. External tanks increase aircraft drag (and consequently fuel consumption) when in flight but can be jettisioned anytime, whereas conformal tanks offer reduced drag but can’t be jettisioned.
Thanx! Good indications that Pinaka Mk3 may employs 300mm barrels to accommodate the Smerch-M rockets. Actually I misunderstood the Pinaka-3 as Pinaka-2.
The M-270 was used in Iraq wars and there it earned the acclaim even of its Iraqui enemies. But the density of war there too was relatively thinner and so I think that exploitation of the full potential of these heavy MLRS weapons has never been achieved.
Sir, I am anon at 6.41PM and 11.11PM. VMT for answering. Your present statements regarding Mil Mi-17v5 IDAS suite have put everything in place and doesn contradict the ones you had said earlier.
But havent answered P4. Regarding MAWS you have provided the ans previously. You said that all modern MAWS are UV/IR based to overcome the deficiencies faced by each band. But in the posters you have posted about MILDS-F MAWS, it is clearly given that it is a UV based system. Nowhere is it mentioned that its a dual based system. So am asking it .
And another thing. Do you answer the questns on your own accord. Previously you have said a different thing about IDAS suite Mi-17v5 then another contradicting the former and lastly one which sets everything right. Have you done this so that your infos are not contradicting or you have got the required info from some one or something and are saying it. I donot wanna know athe source but wanna know that which practise you adopt. All your previous infohave been correct and credible ones xcept this one. Perhaps a slip of tongue.
By the way thanx for answering moy queries .
Sir,
In the past 3 years IAF has lost 33 fighter jets . 1 Jaguar, 2 Mirage 2000 , 3 Sukhoi-30 & 27 MiG- series acs including many 29. How many fighter acs have PAF lost in accidents over the past 3 years? No attrition replacements have been sought excepth for Sukhoi. So IAF strength has been decresing over the years. Are there any chances of replacements for the crashed Mi-17 ?
Hi Prasun , What are the differences between Arrow-2/3 & THAAD BMD. Is Arrow-2/3,indigenous BMD an area defense BMD system ? If THAAD is procured where will it be deployed ? Only NCR and Mumbai . Why arent we procuring PAC-3 systems in bulk to ward off the combined PLA , PA TBM,NLOS-BSM threat ? It will take a good time to develope AAD-1,AAD-2 and more time to induct them into service. Whereas PAC-3 is a proven system .
Hi Prasun,
A few days after Gen V K Singh letter to pm became public..CCS approved a number of equipment purchase in one go..there , brahmos 4th regiment for arunachal pradesh was cleared..2 regiments of pinaka and and ..a regiment of SMERCH MBRL to compliment 145 fh777..this present ammunation tot is for that and we are looking for some learning for pinaka 2 as well as for prahaar..your comments please
Hi prasun da
Few queries:
For MBDA Taurus Kepd Vs.Boeing SALMER...which one do u think is best for IAF AND WHY?Price for SALMER is much less then Taurus
Hi Prasun,
Whenever I read press releases from pvt companies like TATA,Godrej,L&T etc, I always find that they claim they have been contributing to Indian defense for decades. Is it really true? I thought pvt industries were barred from defense sector until recently. What are their major contributions?
Thanks
Swarop
Prasun Da,
It's fact that USA has barred Israel from selling Arrow Missile System and also Citron Tree Command & Control system to India.
Arrow Missile System was barred as because of MTCR + Seeker Systems Technology has US High Tech Components.
Citron Tree System was also barred for the same reason (having US high-tech component).
Regarding 2 Green Pines sold to India...seems US was not much aware that deal was going thru..else they would have definitely stopped that too..another reason could be that those two green pines will only be used to evaluate the system...to pave way for Indo-Israel co-development of SwordFish(which do not have US components/technologies) and these GreenPines would not be deployed in any active BMD system that India deployes..without US clearance.
Even Israel's EL/M 2052 AESA MFRs too has been barred by USA, citing it will have negative impact on selling US's own AESA MFRs (like RACR and SABR radars for LCA MK-II which US has proposed )to India.
IT seems delay's & issues DRDO is facing in developing India'a own AESA MFRs for LCA MK-II is artificially delayed to make to way for buying RACR/SABR radas from US..just as happened for LCA's engine programe..resulted India buying GE F-404/414 .
Prasun da,
Did India ever procure the S 300 from Russia ? There was this news article ( link below) that stated that in 1996 India bought S 300 from Russia .
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/airdef/s-300pmu.htm
Thanks & Regards,
Vikram Guha
Hi Prasun,
Why does India need both the MMRCA ( Rafael) and the LCA MKI/MKII ? Why is DRDO wasting so much of the taxpayer's money in designing the LCA MKI / MKII when the IA is purchasing the Rafael ?
Thanks,
Shiva
To Anon@7.27AM: All existing MAWS, be it from the US, Europe or Scandinavia, are ALL UV-based. The MILDS-F is no exception. And the advent of 360-degree coverage IRST sensors (like that on the FGFA, MiG-35 & in future on the Rafale) greatly diminishes the utility of dual-band MAWS.
To Anon@7.42AM: Whenever a fleet of combat aircraft is procured & inducted into service, attrition replacements/war wastage reserves are always catered for. This means that if, for example, 312 Su-30MKIs are procured by the IAF, then not all 312 of them will be operational all the time. At least 20% of the fleet will be in storage as war reserves/attrition replacements. The same goes for helicopters as well.
To AK: Kindly view this: http://trishulgroup.blogspot.in/2009/10/bmd-challenge.html
THAAD & PAC-3 are unlikely to be procured, unless the DRDO totally fails to deliver the PDV & AD-1/AD-2 interceptors. The Pakistan Army has about 200 Baburs & the PAF less than 80 Ra’ads, as per the US DIA’s appreciation.
To Anon@11.17AM: After the CCNS approves the procurement plan (based on the approval of the Defence Acquisition Council), the purchasing process gets underway under which the Union MoF makes the necessary allocations, following which tenders are called for, or indents are placed. This entire process takes 18 months at the very least. What has been inked between the OFB, Rosoboronexport & SPLAV is only a MoU. Following this a JV company will be created & only after this will a procurement contract be inked for jointly-produced Smerch-M MBRL rounds. And if you may have tracked the extremely lengthy process of creating the JV between HAL, Rosoboronexport & United Aircraft Corp of Russia, then you’ll realise that OFB is quite a long distance away from producing the Smerch-M’s rockets. Prahaar’s R & D is a totally localised effort involving DRDO & private-sector SMEs like Data Patterns Pvt Ltd.
To Anon@12.20PM: My personal view is that the best solution is an indigenous alternative. Since HAL has already developed a mini-turbofan for Nirbhay, this very same turbofan can power a 500km-range tactical ALCM that could, in terms of looks, closely resemble the Taurus or Storm Shadow. For terminal guidance, a version of the miniaturised SAR seeker now being co-developed by the DRDO & Data Patterns Pvt Ltd for the Prahaar NLOS-BSM will be the optimum choice, since tactical ALCMs are always used primarily for striking static targets.
To Spanky’s Blog/Swarop: In case you did not know, TIFR was at the forefront of developing digital computers & even supercomputers as far back as the early 1950s, primarily for the Indian Statistical Institute (ISI). Then some buffoon of a bureaucrat put an end to all this by saying that the ISI’s mandate was never to finance the development of home-grown supercomputers! That’s how India missed out the revolution in computer hardware design & development more than 50 years ago! It was also the TIFR & TATA Power SED that had developed the communications algorithmns for the IA’s AREN combat net radio system. Godrej & Voltas for several years produced internal air conditioning systems for naval warships. L & T’s involvement is more recent, starting with the ATV project.
To INDIAN: Are you a PhD-holder in conspiracy theory formulation? LoLzzz
At the time India decided to buy the F404F2J3s from GE Aero Engines, France too bought the F404 for the Rafale’s technology demonstrator.
To VIKRAM GUHA: India never procured any version of the S-300 family of LR-SAMs from anyone. But DPRK & Iran jointly procured S-300Ps from Croatia.
TO SHIVA DOGUPARTI: Rafale is M-MRCA, while the Tejas Mk2 is a MRCA.
More on OP TRIDENT & Its After-Effects As Seen by Shyam Saran:
This was followed by the discovery in the summer of 1986 that the Chinese had crossed the Thagla Ridge and occupied a feature called Le, built permanent barracks as well as a helipad. In my view this was in some way linked to the hardening of the Chinese position on the border and the new insistence on India making concessions in the eastern sector. I recall accompanying Ambassador K P S Menon to lodge a protest with the then Chinese assistant foreign minister and being witness to a most undiplomatic, offensive and vituperative harangue by the latter. He claimed that China was, of course, on its own territory, that it was only 'strengthening border management' after the neglect of recent years and that India would be prudent not to over-react. Soon thereafter I was transferred from Beijing to Tokyo, but en route in Delhi I attended a strategy session called to discuss our counter moves. There was, I admit, a reluctance to take any military counter measures. However a couple of weeks later I learnt that the then Army Chief K Sundarji had airlifted troops and occupied a parallel ridge, known by the peaks Lurongla, Hathungla and Sulunga, overlooking the Sumdorung river. Two forward posts, Jaya and Negi, were set up across the river just below the ridge and only 10 metres from a Chinese forward post. The Chinese were taken completely by surprise as perhaps were our own political leaders. The then External Affairs Minister N D Tiwari was transiting Beijing on his way back from Pyongyang after attending the Non-Aligned Coordination Bureau meeting that September, to try and assuage Chinese anger. I was accompanying him en-route to Tokyo having been deputed to Pyongyang to assist our delegation. Senior Chinese foreign ministry officials were at hand at the airport to receive our delegation. In the brief exchange that took place at the airport, our minister's protestations of peace and goodwill were met with the not unreasonable comment that while our leaders were talking peace they were making aggressive military moves on the ground at the same time. China would only be satisfied if Indian troops vacated the ridge they had occupied. China would not be fooled; it would "listen to what is said, but see what action is taken." In later talks we agreed to vacate the heights on our side if the Chinese retreated behind the Thagla ridge, but since they were not ready to do so, we stayed put as well. While we may not have planned it this way, the Chinese judged our actions through their own prism: that we had countered their unexpected move by a well orchestrated counter move of our own. Subsequently, I am told, that the offensive and overbearing tone adopted by Chinese foreign ministry officials also changed to being more polite and civilised. The next several years were spent in the two sides discussing disengagement in this sector and finally in 1992, the eyeball to eyeball confrontation was ended and a number of confidence building measures adopted. The lesson to be drawn is not that we should be militarily provocative but that we should have enough capabilities deployed to convince the other side that aggressive moves would invite counter moves. This is the reason why it is so important for us to speed up the upgradation of our border infrastructure and communication links along all our borders, not just with China.
A most facinating read indeed at: http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/slide-show-1-how-india-must-deal-with-an-ascendant-china/20120831.htm?sc_cid=emailshare&invitekey=6ad022bcdbe84415489817a2c9809ab6&err_accptd=1
Shyam Saran is the first Indian career diplomat I've come across who mentions the relevance of ZHUGE LIANG's 'The 36 Strategems' (its english translation by Lawrence J Brahms is a must-read for anyone interested in understanding the Chinese psyche), since, most of the time, everyone involved in Delhi's seminar/diplomatic function circuits never tire of coating from Sun Tzu's 'The Art of War'.
Sir, US,UK and many other European MAWS are doppler , IR based.
IR based
Israel
PAWS from Elisra
France
DDM-SAMIR/DDM-NG from Sagem and MBDA (Uncertain of production/development status)
Germany
PIMAWS from BGT (Uncertain of production/development status)
Germany and France
MIRAS from EADS and Thales
UK
ELIX-IR from Thales UK (Uncertain of production/development status)
USA
AN/AAR 44A from L-3 Cincinnati Electronics (Obsolete system)
MIMS from Northop Grumman (Uncertain of production/development status)
USA and Israel
PAWS - 2 from Raytheon and Elisra
Pulse doppler radar based
France
MWS - 20 (Damien) originally from Dassault Electronique (now Thales)
Israel
EL/M-2160 (ALQ – 199) from ELTA
Japan
J/APQ – 1 * from Mitsubishi Electronic Corporation
Russia
LIP MAW (Obsolete system)
Arbalet-D from Phazatron NIIR Corporation
UK
PVS 2000 originally from GEC Marconi and Plessey Avionics (now SELEX and Thales) (Obsolete system)
UK and Italy
AMIDS from SELEX and Elettronica (Uncertain of production/development status)
USA
AN/ALQ – 127 originally from Westinghouse (now Northrop Grumman) (Obsolete system)
AN/ALQ – 153 originally from Westinghouse (now Northrop Grumman) (Obsolete system)
AN/ALQ – 154 from AIL (Obsolete system)
AN/ALQ – 156 from BAE Systems EI&S
Once the missile motor goes off can MILDS-F detect incoming SAM,MANPADS it being an UV system .
Do you have any idea why Lt.Gen.Kapil Vij was removed as GOC 2 corps in January 2002? I believe it was due to US pressure.
I have a friend who is a serving Major in 17 Poona Horse. He said Kapil Vij was dismayed that Pakistan, through Chinese satellite images, was accurately reading his formations' deployment patterns and intentions. Based on that the Pak army was preparing extensive defenses in depth in his expected sector of operation across the border. He felt that if the attack did not take place immediately, then the Paks would be well prepared to meet his formation and in the ensuing battle, the 2 corps will suffer heavy losses and its offensive will grind to a halt. He pressed the army chief to order the attack soon. But the govt. did not have the balls to order an offensive into Pakistan. So Vij decided to take matters into his own hands. He wanted to provoke the Paks into launching a pre-emptive attack on his formation so that the govt. will be presented a fait accompli. Without informing western command or army HQ, he moved an armoured brigade very close to the border and deployed artillery and mech infantry in their attack patterns to make the Pak officer in his sector think that an invasion is imminent. But Pak did not take the bait and urgently informed the US that India was about to attack. The US intervened and asked India to shift the rogue general and that is why he was shunted out of 2 corps at a very critical juncture contrary to all norms.
Do you have any other information on this???
Dear Prasun,
Thank you for highlighting Shyam Sharans speech. It is very good and we need more like these to make the rounds..
Yes, its true how less our strategic community, bureaucrats and military are really aware about Chinese strategic thinking.
Kong Mings reflections have always fascinated me since the first time I read San Guo, albeit in ENglish. THere are a few people back home, many retired, who are not only proficient with the language, but also the thinking that is needed for our own formulations.
The key thing we need to accept and understand nonjudgementally is that deception in national interest is not to be burdened with things like ethics and false morality of the kind peddled by Nehru.
But as you have mentioned several times, we tend emotionally when we should be practicing pragmatic pursuit of national interest.
A couple of other books I will recommend are a Princeton press book by Yan Xuetong, and some books by Ralph Sawyer.
Would you happen to know how our China studies fare in the recent crop at R&AW? Does the training look into deeper aspects apart from the bare necessities like language?
Hi Prasun,
Given the fact that in 2009 it was widely reported in the Indian media that China plans to disintegrate India on the lines of community , caste and religion , how far do you think that China or any other power,can take advantage of India's faultlines to disintegrate it.
Thanks,
Amit Goenka
Thanks Prasun .
But that's precisely the point . When the IA can have a Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MRCA) like the LCA MK 2 what's the need for a Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) like Rafael ? IAF won't get the Rafael before 2015 in any case & at best IAF will get 15 aircrafts in fly away conditions.
Thanks,
Shiva
To Anon@7.02PM: As you’ve rightly pointed out, most of the IR-based MAWS are obsolete & have been superceded by UV-based MAWS, which are finding their way on to most new-generation combat aircraft & helicopters. Once the missile’s propulsion motor goes kaput, there’s no need for any more early warning since the missile won’t have any more forward thrust & will simply go down, thanks to gravity.
To BLACK HAWK: I know almost everything there is to know not only about OP Parakram, & also what happened in the aftermath & how it was the IA’s HQ Southern Command that began the first conceptualisations about Integrated Battle Groups. It was in the third week of April 2002 that I met up with the IA’s then VCOAS, Lt Gen N C Vij, who had gone to Kuala Lumpur for 3 days to attend the DSA-2002 exhibition & the then Indian DA to Malaysia (Army billet) had requested me to accompany Lt Gen Vij & brief him the various exhibits at the expo site. I spent about half a day with him & when I asked him if he wished to visit the booths of POF & Dr A Q Khan Research Labs, he enthusiastically said YES, OF COURSE. As we approached the booths, the then Pakistan DA to Malaysia (Navy billet), Cmdre Fahim, who was well-known to me, approached Lt Gen Vij & professionally gave a crisp salute to welcome him to the Pakistani exhibits & kindly enquired if he would be interested in meeting the Pakistan Army’s visiting Chief of the General Staff from GHQ, who was the seniormost Pakistani official leading the Pakistani delegation at DSA 2002. Lt Gen Vij again said with enthusiasm: YES, WHY NOT. Immediately after that, the two three-star Generals met, exchanged greetings & shook hands, with all this lasting only 45 seconds. The civilian Pakistani diplomats from the Pakistan High Commission in Malaysia who were also present there were totally bewildered (in a friendly manner) & immediately closed in on the two Lt Gens to listen to what the two were saying to one another. No one displayed any hostility. I still have photographs (which I took) of this friendly & professional encounter & subsequently made copies of them to pass on to the DAs of India & Pakistan for the sake of posterity. So, yes, I do know about the unfortunate Lt Gen Kapil Vij incident & will elaborate more on it later tonight.
To HEBERIAN: Very many thanks. It is indeed a very sad state of affairs in India when it comes to language appreciation. For instance, there are an estimated 20,000 citizens of China who can read, write & speak in Hindi. By comparison, there are less than 1,500 Indian citizens who can read, write & speak in Mandarin. That should give you a fair idea about the scale of appreciation on the PRC within India’s officialdom (sigh!). India’s intelligence agencies mainly send their officers for Mandarin language courses to Hanoi. But more than languages, it is the Chinese psyche that needs to be understood & analysed, something that can only happen when one has prolonged & persistent exposure to Chinese communities, be they based in China or elsewhere in Southeast Asia.
To SHIVA DOGUPARTI: If the IAF were to wait for the Tejas Mk2 MRCA’s arrival by 2018 & take the DRDO’s word for it, then India is definitely headed towards dangerous waters. Hence the decision to go for a M-MRCA. No self-respecting air force can be made to wait for more than 20 years for a product whose operational necessity has been established. A very heavy price has already been paid for delaying the BTT & AJT procurements & therefore the IAF is determined that history does not repeat itself.
To AMIT GOENKA: The faultlines do exist & the gaps are increasing by the day, especially in the North East, where the present-day GoI seems to have abdicated all its moral & administrative responsibilities. For example, just take a look at this: http://ibnlive.in.com/videos/223038/manipur-the-angry-state.html
& this: http://ibnlive.in.com/videos/285495/30-minutes-assam-split-wide-open.html
That is why folks like Shyam Saran are making desperate pleas for improving the transportation & public utilities infrastructure throughout the North East & northern India right up to Ladakh. But regrettably, nothing much will come of such pleas, since the India of 2011-2012 is functioning as a default state. Even serving Governors of some northeastern states are aloof to what’s going on, & one of them had in the past proceeded to Greece on an all-expenses paid trip, ostensibly to study the tourism industry of Greece & try to replicate it back in his state!
Hi Prasun,
Thanks for your answer . However , rest of India cannot be understood through the prism of the North East. China wants to disintegrate the WHOLE of India on the basis of community & caste (Please see the link below ).
http://www.rediff.com/news/2009/aug/10china-should-break-up-india-suggests-chinese-strategist.htm
Do you think China or any other power will succeed in this ?
Thanks,
Amit Goenka
To AMIT GOENKA: Splitting the whole of India would clearly be an over-reach. The PRC will not undertake something which it cannot achieve. To me, the PRC's goals & objectives are therefore limited in nature & are likely to achieve the best desired results (by exploiting the faultlines generated by tribalism) only in India's northeastern region. In terms of territorial gains, the PRC has already got what it wanted in the west (Aksai Chin) & it now only wants to covet the Tawang Tract.
Actually it is India and Dalai Lama/Tibetans, who have to somehow by hook or by crook take back their land from the Red Dragon China. The task is to take it.
To Mr.RA 13: That will be almost impossible in future, since the Tibetans are politically so disorganised & disunited, & they don't even have any more the necessary evidence to prove their legal status as a once-sovereign state.
TO BLACK HAWK: OP Parakram, launched in the wake of the December 13, 2001 terrorist attack on Parliament, was the first full-scale mobilisation since the 1971 India-Pakistan war. It began on December 19, 2001 after the Cabinet Committee on National Security’s (CCNS) decision and was completed by January 13, 2002. It finally ended on October 16, 2002. During the CCNS meeting on December 19 in which the three armed service chiefs attended, the order for full tri-services mobilisation was given NOT by the then PM A B Vajpayee (who was silent throughout the meeting), by by his alter-ego, Brajesh Mishra, the then National Security Adviser & Principal Secretary to the PM. When the armed service chiefs asked Mishra what exactly were the higher directions of war (i.e. what was to be achieved & in what kind of time-frame), they were told “wo sab baadmein bataaenge” (all that will be revealed later). While the service chiefs clearly found this to be totally bizarre, they decided not to question the CCNS’ decision, hoping that by the time mobilisation was almost 80% complete (within the next fortnight), the higher directions of war would be clearly spelt out in writing. This, as we all now know never happened, since the NDA govt of the day never had the stomach for either limited high-intensity conflict or for full-scale hostilities against Pakistan. This clearly emerges from the book “No Higher Honor: A Memoir of My Years in Washington” by former US National Security Advisor and Secretary of State Dr Condoleezza Rice, who wrote that back in early January 2002 it was Brajesh Mishra who was pleading with Dr Rice to do something, anything, that would subdue the ‘for war lobby’ that was gaining strength within India (meaning the NDA govt-in-power never wanted to go to war with Pakistan). Meanwhile as the mobilisation was underway, the Army’s HQ Northern Command clearly told Army HQ that it was not in a position to go to war since it was suffering from critical equipment shortages. The same was the case with the Indian Navy, whose warship spares inventories were down by 50%. While the Army’s Pivot Corps were ready for battle in 72 to 96 hours from the word ‘go’, the three strike corps—I Corps (Mathura), II ‘Kharga’ Corps (Ambala) and XXI Corps (Bhopal)—took three weeks to reach their wartime locations. The IA’s Western Command (HQed in Chandimandir, Punjab) was the most important Army command as far as Pakistan went and held extensive strike power. Its II ‘Kharga’ Corps was then the most important (possessing 50% of the IA’s offensive capabilities) & was tasked to tear through the Thar/Cholistan Desert & race towards Jacobabad, thereby cutting Pakistan into two. However, the US knew very well about the IA’s hardware deficiencies & therefore never expected the IA to go on the offensive over the next 4 months (this was precisely the reason why the US never issued any advisory to its nationals to leave India and Pakistan immediately, and instead issued such an advisory only in May 2002). The Pakistan Army was at that time obtaining paid-for overhead recce satellite imagery NOT from China (which never has a SAR-equipped satellite at that time) but from Canada’s RADARSAT-1 SAR-equipped satellite, owned by RADARSAT International (RSI).
Con’td from above….
Lt Gen Kapil Vij, the then GOC of II ‘Kharga’ Corps, was unaware of all that was happening back at Army HQ & within the civilian corridors of power in Delhi, & therefore proceeded on the premise that the “law of the initial advantage of the aggressor” assumes critical importance, as it is the aggressor who generally sets the pattern which operations will take. Since no further OP-PLAN instructions were emanating from either HQ Western Command (since Army HQ had not been issued any directives regarding the higher directions of war from the GoI), Lt Gen Kapil Vij decided to take the initiative with perfectly honourable intentions & ordered a third of his warfighting formations—all located 40km away from the international boundary (IB)—to be forward-deployed (as you’ve described) just 4km away from the IB. This was immediately picked up by US overhead recce satellites & it was indeed an escalation since it violated the India-Pakistan confidence-building measures (CBM)—formalised in the late 1980s after EX BRASS TACKS—that called for all land-based warfighting assets (men & material) of both countries to be kept 10km away from the IB & working boundary (WB), while the airspace of both countries would be a no-fly-zone for combat aircraft & military helicopters on either side of the IB & WB during peacetime. Therefore, it was not Pakistan which alerted the US about this, but the US itself saw all this through its overhead recce satellites & then confronted Brajesh Mishra with the evidence & bluntly asked whether the GoI really wanted a full-scale war, or did it sincerely want the US to lean over Pakistan & force it to make some concessions (like Gen Musharraf’s statement of January 11, 2002), which in turn would serve to subdue the ‘war-mongerers’ within the GoI & armed forces. Consequently, a highly embarrassed Brajesh Mishra, in order to save his face & credibility in front of the US, allegedly directed the MoD under George Fernandes to force Army HQ to relieve Lt Gen Kapil Vij of his command of II ‘Kharga’ Corps as proof of Mishra’s ‘sincere’ intentions about averting full-scale war. This, obviously, greatly pissed off everyone, especially the then COAS, Gen Sundarajan ‘Paddy’ Padmanabhan, who subsequently aired his views in public, which can be read at:
http://www.hindu.com/2004/02/06/stories/2004020604461200.htm
Regretably, nothing has changed since then, & till this day the armed forces are condemned to second-guessing the intentions of the country’s civilian political masters & their inability to have the stomach for going to war with India’s adversaries should the need ever arise. That’s why till this day, there does not exist any formalised or codified national warfighting doctrine, & consequently none of the three armed forces have clear-cut & well-defined OP-PLANS & related rules of engagement. Therefore, Cold Start, Pro-Active Strategy & Transformation all remain mere notional/still-born concepts.
For whatever it is worth: I had the opportunity during a foreign trip, I think in mid 2003, to ask Mr Vajpayee one to one, what happened in Parakaram. His answer in Hindi was short: "We asked them to go, but they did not." As is his style, he refused to elaborate. My own take is that the window of opportunity was between December 13, and December 27 or 28th when Bush called Vajpayee and Musharraf and asked them to keep peace. After that big power pressure came on hard, including an unscheduled visit by Tony Blair over the New Year.
HI prasun
You have said the americans think that pak has about 200 baburs It beats me why we did not include cruise missile development initially with other missiles .One advantage Pak has is that it keeps being advised by china on how to wage war on India unlike us .
I think the way forward is to go in for massive induction of cruise missiles like what pak has done . MY reasoning is simple , If there is a raid on a pak air base there is bound to be attrition given todays air defences in pak , knowing that they have a good low level air defence. Loosing a su-30 is going to cost us 70 million dollars not accounting for the life of the pilot.Even then there is no guarantee that the raid may be totally successful given the AWACS cover . It would be more cost effective to send a barrage of nirbhays to target a particular airfield like 50 of them and expect 50% hits .We can take out all hangars and air defences and munition bunkers and hit buried ones with the Brahmos due to higher kinetic mass. We should procure 2000 cruise missiles in all forms which would bring down the cost per missile to 1 million which is highly affordable by us and send our ac after softening .It is assumed that the missiles will have pin point accuracy .When pak and china can do it ,India and Israel can do it better.
We should ask the russians to co develop the KH-59 series like the brahmos into pinpoint attack missile within 300 km which is more than enough to take care of pakistan bases. Simultaneously we should develop a JLENS type of cruise missile defence given the barrage of baburs that are going to come this way.
To Deshbhakth: I think you have a bright future as a story writer in Bollywood. Sell your story to a good producer.
Maybe you can cast Anupam Kher as the revenge seeking Gen. Vij (http://mod.nic.in/samachar/june1-03/image/32cc.jpg). You can show a flashback where a kid Vij is riding a train in the arms of his mother and father along with a kid brother/sister while fleeing the Pak part of Punjab. You can show a murderous muslim mob (shouting Islam/Jinnah zindabad) stop the train and pull out the Vij family and massacre them all except of course our guy Vij. We can show a scene where the older Vij is tormented by these scenes in the form of nightmares.
Then the scene cuts to the parliament attack where there is a gun battle between terrorists and policemen. When the order to deploy comes, Anupam Kher or Vij goes to a dark room in his house where the photos of his parents are hung and cuts his hand and swears with his blood that "Mein khoon ka badla khoon se loonga".
In the hero role you can cast Ajay Devgn/Salman Khan/Akshay Kumar as a righteous, peace loving army captain serving as Vij's ADC in 2 corps. The scene cuts to ISI HQ where the Pak officers decide to send an agent to honey trap Vij. Enter Sonam Kapoor/Katrina Kaif as the honey trapping heroine who tries to pass off as a girl in the local Rajasthani village. Instead of seducing Vij, she falls for our ADC hero. They sing a duet in the desert dancing around T-72 tanks and Bofors gun. Finally they make love inside a Stallion truck.
Meanwhile our hero discovers Vij's dastardly plans and tries to inform HQ western command. Simultaneously R&AW discovers the true identity of the heroine and passes this information to Vij.
So we have an action sequence where the hero tries to save his lady love from Vij while simultaneously trying to expose the plans to his superiors. After a few fights between the hero and Vij's guys, the hero hijacks a helicopter and takes it straight to New Delhi to meet Vajpayee to expose Vij. You can show a dogfight over the Delhi sky between our hero in his Mi-17 and a squadron of MiG-29s where the hero manages to shoot down the entire squadron with his service pistol and an INSAS rifle. He lands his chopper inside 7 RCR and after another mega fight with the SPG guys, a wounded hero manages to reach the PM and spill the beans.
Meanwhile Vij kidnaps the heroine and holds her hostage. Our hero takes an An-32 and parachutes into Vij's lair near the Indo-Pak border. After another epic battle all of Vij's guys are destroyed. Then Vij, in a last ditch effort, climbs into a T-72 with the heroine and tries to drive towards the Pak positions across the border to seek martyrdom. The hero in another T-72, intercepts them at the border. An epic tank battle follows in which Vij is wounded. The hero rushes to Vij's burning tank dodging Paki gunfire and saves the heroine and Vij. He carries them both to an Indian field hospital where a wounded Vij dies. The hero respectfully salutes Vij's body and covers it with our national flag and the national anthem is played in the bgm. The heroine recovers and both of them hug and kiss.
Finally the whole truth is known. The ISI agent heroine is pardoned by both GOI & GOP. A grateful IA and PA award the hero PVC and Nishan-e-haider respectively. A grand wedding takes place at Wagah attended by both Vajpayee and Musharraf.
And I almost forgot. Throw in a couple of item numbers. Maybe you can show Musharraf and his corps commanders watching a mujra by Mallika Sherawat when the news of India's deployment reaches them. You can also show Indian soldiers deployed in the desert relaxing in the evening by a campfire by watching a raunchy dance by Malaika Arora.
To Prasun:
Really sorry for this long and irrelevant post. But this guy's ideas were irresistible.
Deshbhakt-
You are missing the woods for the trees.
Blackhawk makes an excellent, if tongue-in-cheek suggestion.
You might just want to actually understand what Prasun is really saying before these funny conspiracy theories are posted, fun though they are :)
@ Blackhawk -
To the screenplay, you can add our Kapil Dev ji too. Apart from being an honorary officer, his father used to work for Gen. Kapil Vij's father in pre-partition Punjab. Think of the twist :)
Hello Prasun,
There are pockets of exception back home, for example I personally know an old Iyer maami who lives near Rashbehari Avenue in Calcutta. Her Russian husband passed on and her children are all in the west. She has an excellent command of over 900 Chinese characters, though her 4 tones still demonstrate the power of the Iyer accent...
My take is that the issue is about the lack of concerted effort to learn the language AND understand the psyche. The Americans do it so well. Its not like they have hugely vaster immersive experience other than the TEFL teachers living in the CHinese hinterland..
I think its our apathetic attitude. The "chalta hai" way... and the utter unwillingness to listen and learn from folks who actually know better..
Plus, the utter lack of respect we tend to show towards ways that are alien to us... ad ou unwillingness to learn.. oh the list goes on and on..
I did not know that Hanoi was the primary place. Thank you for telling me.
To MANOJ JOSHI: Will elaborate further on OP Parakram timelines tonight, especially about the nuclear overhang factor, which will serve to bring about further clarity.
To DESHBHAKTH: The questions that ou’ve raised have been answered by no less a person than the former CPAS Gen Paddy Padmanabhan (read the contents of the weblink I had posted above). As for your points A & B, I’m afraid you’re way off the mark, perhaps due to your lack of understanding of the IA’s command-n-control hierarchy & especially what constitutes OPERATIONAL ART.
To BLACK HAWK: Your proposition to Deshbhakth is both hilarious & highly creative, to say the least. If Deshbhakth has the good sense, he ought to immediately rope you in as his scriptwriter (I mean this in a positive sense). I will create a new thread on OP Parakram tonight & will explain the nuclear overhang factor, which I did not elaborate upon yesterday.
To HEBERIAN: VMT indeed. By the way, here’s one of the results of the ‘chalta hai’ attitude: http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/article3847937.ece
I was rivetted by your description and links of the thagla ridge & sumdorong chu incidents.
However I am perplexed as to why the thought process in India was that China would retalliate with tactical nukes in sumdorong chu and not like wise in Thag la.
What could have been the real reason that the IAs reaction was so different for two similar incidents that happened not too far away from each other[time wise].
On a lighter note I have failed your 'prove your not a robot' umpteen times. It sometimes makes me wonder if I am a robot, ROFLMAO.
Sir, you have only looked at the obsolete systems. There are so many other advanced state of the art IR MAWS . Both EF Typhonn , Rafale uses IR bases MAWS and not UV ones. EF previously used a pulse doppler one but this system is being replaced by a IR one in later tranches.Once the rocket motor goes kaput the missile doesnt simply go down because it has a lot of momentum and kinetic energy left in it. Besides Akash sam, not a single MRSAM or SHORADS are powered through out the flight phase. After the rocket motor goes off the missile starts to glide or coax towards the target.
When will be posting the thread on IN's tardy procurements and Pakistan Army's tank upgrade.
Pls post something on contemporary and recent events.
And thanx for replying .
Hi Prasun,
I was able to locate S 400 sites in & around Moscow using Google Earth.However, Google Earth shows that India does not have any BMD sites near strategic installations or major cities. How is this possible ? India should have some BMD sites ?
Thanks,
Lalith
Prasun,
BBC a couple of years ago published a detail poll result reflecting how the world views India . Interestingly 35% of Americans polled thought India had a NEGATIVE impact on the world.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4676304.stm
There are a number of scholars who now recon that hatred towards INDIA will only rise in the US as Indians are viewed as job stealers and illegal immigrants. The recent killing of Sikhs is therefore just the tip of the iceberg . Please do share your views.
Thanks,
Ramesh
To Anon@6.29PM: When one talks of the PLA corssing the Thagla Ridge, it refers to routine patrolling ‘transgressions’, and not setting up permanent checkposts as was the case with Sumdorong Chu. Therefore, the latter case amounts to aggression or land-grabbing, which ought to have been militarily evicted. The fact that this was not done at that time can only mean in thing: India did not have the wherewithal or stomach to climb the escalatory ladder without an assured nuclear deterrent. Had India possessed such a deterrent at that time, then her military’s confidence-level would have been much higher & a short conventional border skirmish would have taken place & India would have prevailed, since at that time the Indian Army’s build-up was massive & the PLA was totally caught off-guard and was devoid of the kind of superiority in men & firepower which India had then enjoyed in that sector.
To Anon@7.11PM: Check out the visual above of the pylon-mounted MAWS-F, since that’s what will go on the IAF Rafales. All SAMs employ the technique of proportional navigation whern homing in on their targets. The SAMs aren’t top-attack munitions that will glide on to their targets. And who/what will be on hand to ‘coax’ the SAM towards its target? An act of God???
To LALITH YELLAPRAGADA: Why do you think this is impossible? Has anyone from the Govt of India or India’s armed forces ever stated that India is deploying or acquiring BMD systems for operational deployment? Not to the best of my knowledge.
To RAMESH: This is always the case in any country that undergoes an economic slowdown & the US therefore is no exception. Even in Australia the local Caucasians hate the Vietnamese & Laotians simply because of the latter’s propensity to work hard. This gives rise to envy & jealousy. The average Caucasian anywhere in Australia will close his/her grocery store/hypermart by 7pm, whereas the Vietnamese/Laotian immigrants will conduct business till 10pm. The Caucasians, instead of viewing this as an enterprising act worthy of emulation, view this as an attempt by the non-Caucasian immigrants to ‘steal’ jobs. The same thing happens in Malaysia, where there’s no one to do the kind of menial jobs which only the Bangladeshi or Indonesian foreign workers can do, and yet these Bangladeshis & Indonesians are de-humanised & severely ill-treated by both civil society & the authorities. An d the same thing is happening in Mumbai, where the so-called local Marathis won’t ever do the kind work that folks from Bihar or UP do, and yet these so-called ‘outsiders’ are being looked down upon & despised—an attitude strongly reminiscent of the Nazis & neo-Nazis.
In a previous thread you mentioned Thagla as a transgression and Sumdoron Chu as an encroachment. You also defined transgression as something that lasts for a few hours.
However you also quoted Saran as recalling that permanent barracks as well as a helipad existed at thagla.My question is could this also not be referred to as an encroachment as they did not arrive and leave in a matter of hours.
A more important question, and this is to understand the indian state of alertness. how does one's foe manage to set up so much infrastructure on your side and nobody gets wind of what is going on until it is too late. Here are some examples.
First claiming Aksai Chin as Kashmir but not having a clue a highway was constructed through it.
Secondly helipads were built at thagla and sumdorong chu before word about taking action even began
Thirdly pakistani troops perched themselves on mountain tops in kargil and shot at vehicles on the highway like shooting fish in a barrel, only after this did everyone wake up.
All the above instances were not special ops but well conceived and thought out plans. You'd think there'd be a mole in the neighbours houses to source these things out.
Seems another startling discovery is just around the corner.
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