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Saturday, March 9, 2013

China's WZ-10 Attack Helicopter Was Designed By Russia's Kamov Design Bureau, Not By CHRDI


Anonymous said...

prasunda, what is the use of that sliding frame in the side window.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

That's a standby mechanism in case of a failure of the standby on-board oxygen supply system at higher altitudes.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To KSINGH: Exactly what I had predicted two weeks ago:

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To KSINGH: And this more or less conclusively proves that the allegations against former IAF CAS, ACM S P Tyagi, are malicious & legally untenable (i.e. he's being framed).

Gessler said...

Check this out -

A wind tunnel model of Tejas Mk-2 Air Force version (as written on the card). Is that a LEVCON on the leading edge? Air Force version will have it too?

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To GESSLER: No, it isn't. And by the weay, the COMPLETE wind-tunnel scale-model of the Tejas Mk2 was showcased NOT by NAL, but by CSIR at its booth during Aero India 2013, which had also displayed a scale-model of the trisonic wind-tunnel now under construction with Boeing's help (I've got lots of photos of them & their posters). Too bad the 'desi' journalists have not yet been able to uncover it. Shit happens!

Anonymous said...

Does Akash and Pinaka have export potential?
if yes then which country is interested in them ?

JEET SINGH said...

Is LCH comparable to WZ10? Which one is better according to you in terms of technology?

DAshu said...

This is interesting . If it's true then Chinese are the real smart people .

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Anon@3.48PM: To me, they don’t seem to have any.

To JEET SINGH: The two can’t be compared as they’ve incorporated different design philosophies & are configured for different roles.

To DASHU: Of course it is true. The two topmost visuals are part of a recent PowerPoint presentation given by Kamov Design Bureau & therefore Kamov can hardly be expected lie about its participation in such a project.

Gessler said...

Why don't you post all those pics in a new thread so that we can all see, yes sir :)

KSingh said...


Why are the GoI, MoD and CBI being led done a garden path wrt ACM TYANGI if he is complety innocent? Only the other day the CBI named him and some of hisfamily members in a FIR.

+ I was speaking to a friend who says he read an article in the Indian press that India and Russia are yet to agree on the details of the Super Sukhoi upgrade and the entire upgrade deal is in the verge of collapse. Is there any truth in this?

KSingh said...

+ Prasun is there anyway you could post all your Indian defence related pics you have onto a Flickr photos treat or somthing? I'd be VERY interested to see them.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To GESSLER: Will do that, but all in good time.

To KSINGH: No FIR has been filed naming the former CAS of the IAF or anyone else so far. The CAS & his cousins were only questioned yesterday & that’s routine & nothing to be ashamed of or be embarrassed about. But once the truth is out, I hope those who are now being defamed will sue the ‘desi’ print/electronic media houses & get back their pound of flesh. Details of the Super Sukhoi-30MKI upgrade package were agreed upon way back in 2011 & since then the IAF has been funding the various R & D packages & it is only due to this that the glass cockpit design has been finalised & the MSWS suite is now undergoing systems integration trials on the ground, while NIIP Tikhomirov has received funds from India for customising the AESA-MMR package & distributed AESA-arrays for fitment on the Super Sukhoi-30MKI. Such R & D activities don’t take off unless & until money is sanctioned & since such money was sanctioned in 2011 itself, it means the project is on & is making swift progress. Anyone else who contradicts such facts is either being ignorant at best & being mischievous at worst. For, those interested in this project (like your’s truly) had all the opportunity to talk to the project’s various industrial stakeholders—both Indian & Russian—during Aero India 2013 & obtain all relevant details first-hand.
Regarding photos, I’ve so far taken more than 20,000 of them from various expos since June 1987 & uploading them anyone en masse is an impossibility.

Anonymous said...

prasun sir please tell about Me the future of mig27 in iaf & is ka-226 is really gud luh in indian conditions..

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

MiG-27UPG will be retired from service by 2017. No matter how good the Ka-226T or AS.550C3 Fennec is, the fact remains that in today’s world one cannot buy two different LUH/RSH models (from HAL & from a foreign OEM) for doing the same duties. One has to settle for only ONE model in the end. So, either go for an imported one in which case it’s no use wasting money on a homegrown LUH, or go for the homegrown LUH solution & refuse to import any other model.

Anonymous said...

Hi Prasun dA

after seeing AMCA mockup at Aero India 2013, do u think it is necessary for India or it will be just waste of money and time like Tejas

Mr. Ra 13 said...

Obviously Kamov did it for the sake of hard cash. But does this in any serious way reflect negatively on such design capabilities of China.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Anon@12.45AM: The Tejas programme, howsoever mismanaged has it been in terms of overall project management, is still not a waste of time for sure, since a lot has been learnt given the fact that there was a lot of catching up to do. R & D efforts like these would have been a lot easier & cheaper & faster had a structured approach been adopted, i.e. the crawl, walk & run approach under which instead of the Tejas Mk1, the Govt of India had first decided to authorize HAL to develop a basic turboprop trainer like the HTT-35 & then an advanced jet trainer in the early 1980s. This then should have been followed up in the mid-1990s by initiating a strategic risk-sharing partnership agreement with a global OEM like Dassault Aviation for co-developing the Tejas MRCA family. Had this approach been adopted, then the AMCA project would have been viable & there would have been no need for co-developing the FGFA/PMF. Similarly, had India accepted France’s offer in the mid-1970s to co-develop a new-generation MBT, then by today the Arjun MBT would have been in service in large numbers instead of the T-90S. Regretfully, such a roadmap wasn’t followed & consequently the Tejas programme is still in the process of maturing, as is the Arjun MBT family, while time constraints have meant that the FGFA/PMF project be accorded greater priority at the cost of the AMCA. Consequently, while the Tejas programme can hopefully enable India to learn many lessons the hard way, the urgency to induct the FGFA/PMF into service means that the AMCA project will have to be sacrificed.

To Mr.RA 13: No, it does not, for securing & mastering the home-grown expertise for prototype development & production engineering, & overcoming the flight certification challenges are all far more challenging than mere product design. This is exactly what India has learnt/is still learning the hard way through projects involving the Dhruv ALH family & Tejas MRCA family & now the LCH & LUH projects.

Mr. Ra 13 said...

If I remember properly, in the mid-1970s to co-develop a new-generation MBT with France was almost non-thinkable. France at that time gave an image more of leaning towards pakistan along with America. Russia and Britain were considered capable enough and more reliable towards India.

KSingh said...


Thanks again.

Yes I had thought as much. As an NRI I sadly, could not attend AERO INDIA this year so I could not pester all the defence agents with my questions! I guess for those in my postion we have you to do the pestering for us!

Is there any way you could post just your most recent pics onto some sort of open photo viewing site like Flickr? Or atleast start one and post any news ones as you go along and not bother uploading the 20,000+ pics you already have?!!

+ my, 20,000 really is an impressive collection!! Lucky you!

+ do you have any idea when the Indian SOFs will be getting their new LSVs for which a tender went out some time ago?

And when will the regular military start replacing their Gypsys?

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

Read this:

Akhil Suri said...

Hi Prasun,

During your talks with the various Indian & Russian stakeholders during Aero India 2013 were you able to find out what are the advantages that the Super Sukhoi 30 MKI has over the SU 35 ?


Anonymous said...

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Mr.RA 13: It was actually the Brits that were the non-favoured ones in the 1970s. Soon after the May 1974 nuclear weapons test, France had offered India an umbrella deal almost similar to what the Soviets had offered in August 1971, but the difference being that while the Soviets until the very end never bothered to co-develop new-generation systems with India, France on the other hand had proposed co-development/joint-development of various types of weapon systems like MBTs, SHORADS, warships, MRCA, field artillery howitzers, etc. And the then India in her all-knowing wisdom rejected all such offers! Such an offer was again made in 1980 & this time certain signals were sent to France that this time India would take up the offer. Then, the inexplicable happened & India once again turned to the Soviets for large-scale re-arming. This completely baffled the French, since their offers were byfar the best & most comprehensive & were therefore unmatched. It was because of this that France then launched an espionage operation (the infamous Larkins Brothers affair) to find out why in the world did India go for Soviet-origin weapons instead of the far more superior French weapons & offers for their joint development. The spin given at that time by the GoI was that this espionage scandal was a third-country operation aimed at finding out the performance parameters of Soviet-origin weapons & passing on such information to the US & NATO, but the reality was something totally different, as I’ve explained above.

To KSINGH: Defence agents will never spill the beans to anyone. But representatives of OEMs are under no such restrictions. Total no of visuals/photos at my disposal exceed 40,000 if one includes the official OEM handouts & their product CDs. For FY 2013, only the Rafale M-MRCA deal is likely to be inked, & there’s no extra funding available for acquiring any other weapon system like LSVs. There’s no stated need to replace the Gysies since there’s nothing wrong with them.

To AKHIL SURI: The advantages were known by February 2011 itself & I had mentioned them all in the thread on the Super Sukhoi back in 2011.

Mr. Ra 13 said...

Quote>>Soon after the May 1974 nuclear weapons test, France had offered India an umbrella deal almost similar to what the Soviets had offered in August 1971,<<UNQUOTE

You are right, the French position somehow improved after 1974. However India perhaps could not suddenly understand it and took another many years to believe it.

Apart from the global politics then, was it not a fact that the Russian deals were cheaper and based on Rupee payments, while the French and all other offers were not only costlier but also based on hard currency payment, so a poor fourth world nation like India then had no other option but to accept the Russian proposals, notwithstanding howsoever retrogressive they may look today.

Similarly India did not accept the EE Lightning in favor of Mig 21, because they were much more costlier and again supplied against hard currency.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Mr.RA 13: While the acquisition costs of Soviet-origin weapons were definitely cheaper, the life-cycle costs were three times greater due to the need to set up both Base Repair Depots as well as licenced-assembly plants for such hardware, especially those for the Army & IAF. And the nett result of all this today is the existence of Divisions of DPSUs that handle licenced-production of hardware, as well as Base Repair Depots & Workshops that are today white elephants since they continue to suffer from severe human resource deficiencies. For instance, the 3 BRD in Chandigarh has for the last 10 years never been able to meet its annual industrial objectives, which translates into less than 50% serviceability of the IAF’s entire fleet of Mi-8/Mi-17 helicopters during peacetime.
Had joint development of weapon systems been carried out with France, then the acquisition costs/oof-the-shelf costs too would have become more cheaper since both the recurring & non-recurring costs would have been shared by both countries. In addition, India’s domestic military-industrial infrastructure too would have grown exponentially, thus avoiding the need for separate Base Repair Depots/Workshops owned by the armed forces. Hard-currency payments were never a severe problem for India even in the 1970s & 1980s as the Rupee’s value was much higher those days. The decision to acquire large-scale Soviet-origin hardware since the late 1960s must also be looked at in perspective: the very same hardware that India started acquiring from the USSR since 1969 was first offered to Pakistan in 1968 & it was only after Pakistan declined this offer was the very same offer made to India. And what also has not been disclosed in why the IAF refused to evaluate the Dassault Mirage 3 for acquisition in the mid-1960s at a time when the bulk of the IAF’s jet-powered combat aircraft were of French origin (Ouragans & Mysteres). After all, as the six-day Arab-Israeli War of June 1967 revealed, the Mirage-3s were far more lethal & reliable than the MiG-21s.

Anonymous said...

"Consequently, while the Tejas programme can hopefully enable India to learn many lessons the hard way, the urgency to induct the FGFA/PMF into service means that the AMCA project will have to be sacrificed."
Prasun AMCA isn't going anywhere. Everyone involved in the project wants the project to go on no matter whats the delay (although i think the delay this time will be less). Its gonna replace Mirage and Jaguar (150-200 AMCA will be procured) and iaf by upgrading these two aircrafts have ensured that ADA has proper time to develop a fully indegenous aircraft for them.
Now skeptics are there and drdo's track record are in their favor but even they are crossing their fingers and hoping that just this time drdo succeed and in this list includes politicians also.
Only ones who can cancel the project is Finance ministry by cutting the funding and for this reason 2013 is critical. Normally PC's comeback would have ensured the project's survival but the fiscal discipline might force him to cut the project as its not gonna get him any vote.

"No matter how good the Ka-226T or AS.550C3 Fennec is, the fact remains that in today’s world one cannot buy two different LUH/RSH models (from HAL & from a foreign OEM) for doing the same duties."
Nobody is saying that we should operate 2 types of LUH. We are saying either a foreign LUH or HAL LUH but knowing the mismanagement that happens in the government i wouldn't be surprised that under iaf pressure we end up purchasing fennec or Ka-226 and later under HAL's pressure and the spirit of indegenization iaf is forced to induct HAL's LUH also. It happens all the time.

Anonymous said...

Is it really gonna help us or will further complicate things ?

DAshu said...

but why french were so friendly that time .any specific reason for this one sided offers always

DAshu said...

what is happening in Afghanistan ?
why Hamid Karzai is making these statements ? Afghanistan end game is taking lot of turns or all these are just statements for some specific audience

spanky's Blog said...

Nirbhay can drop bombs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! another piece of exquisite reporting by our desi journo brothers:

Pierre Zorin said...

I understand that India's liaison with the erstwhile USSR might look strange these days given those French offers, but I reckon other than the KGB angle and lack of visionary leadership, India was afraid to leap out to the French for the following: 1) Even though France was somewhere in between the UK and the US, it was still a full member state of NATO.There was a perception that in matters relating to Pakistan, the US will pressure France into withholding critical technology and support.1971 was an example when the US even though clearly knowing about the HR violations stayed neutral and was pressuring India not to engage in a war with Pakistan.2)India's proximity to the USSR.Remember Nikita Khruschev saying to India, "f you need help just yell out across the himalayas?". 3)Even though long term costs could have been lower than the actual purchase price, by making the transactions appealing such as promise of a 24/7 back up, rupee as means of transaction, possible threat of backing China and Pakistan among the many things to consider, Kremlin made offers that India could not refuse.Add to this the fear of the unknown.Even though India claimed membership of the NAM, in reality everything was styled after the Soviets like a proxy aligned nation.Even today India is trying to follow a Soviet style planned economy.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Anon@6.50AM: You’re absolutely right when you state that “AMCA isn't going anywhere”. For, the IAF does not want yet another technology demonstration project that can only throw up an operationally deficient platform. Furthermore, ADA has conclusively failed to develop a viable & cost-effective operational MRCA platform in the absence of production-engineering inputs from aircraft manufac turers like HAL, & operational-level usage-related inputs from the IAF. All this has happened because ADA was never expected to develop the entire MRCA platform, but only the core technologies that would go into the platform. However, due to project mismanagement at the highest decision-making levels of the Govt of India since 1984, there exists today a dysfunctional asymmetry in terms of project taskings between ADA & HAL, a factor that HAL, with the IAF’s help, will skillfully utilise in favour of the FGFA/PMF at the cost of the AMCA. That’s the writing on the wall as of now from whichever angle one looks at the future scenario—operational, industrial & financial. The same goes for the LUH/RSH programme as well & things will no longer be the same as before due to the severe financial constraints that India will continue to face for the remainder of this decade. Therefore, many things that happened all the time before are unlikely to happen in future, such as procurement of multiple platforms for doing the same job.

To Anon@6.53AM: It will only maintain the existing status quo, since according priority to the ‘Buy & Make’ category means ONLY the bulk licence-production of imported systems, something which will clearly benefit only the DPSUs, with the private-sector being reduced to being only vendors & sub-contractors. Only if topmost priority is given to the ‘Make’ category will indigenous total systems solutions be offered by the country’s private-sector since the private-sector has no dearth of capital for not only acquiring all the necessary technologies & production-engineering expertise, but also for ensuring speedy prototype development. In such a scenario, the DPSUs will be the nett losers since they hardly do any worthwhile in-house R & D. But the nett gainer will be the DRDO, since its R & D-related responsibilities related to platform/systems development & production engineering will be dramatically reduced, thereby enabling the DRDO to focus on core R & D—its original mandate since its creation. Only then will the DRDO morphe into something like DARPA.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To DASHU: The French were always friendly & still are. Their only objective then & now was/remains the capturing of a strategic market where bulk production & procurement of military products & services is an assured fact of life. And what kind of statements are emanating from Afghanistan? A few examples please?

To SPANKY’s BLOG/SWAROP: Not only that, but it also apparently ‘looks’ like an aircraft!!! And these are the very same ‘desi’ reporters of THE HINDU that had stated last year that the Nirbhay will be powered by a turboprop!!! Wonder what’s next!

To PIERRE ZORIN: 1) While France was & remains a full-state member of NATO, it was & is still a non-military member of NATO, ever since de Gaulle withdrew from NATO’s military component. 2) In 1971, the US was never against Indian military intervention in East Pakistan on humanitarian grounds. It was against the sub-conventional warfare strategy then being employed by India (through the creation of the Mukti Bahini) that was viewed as being destabilising especially at a time when the US was confronting the very same covert subversive strategy being employed by North Vietnam throughout Indo-China (i.e. usage of the Viet Cong as proxy forces in South Vietnam via the Ho Chi Minh Trail through Laos & Cambodia). 3) It is worth remembering that the very same Krushchev who had said "if you need help just yell out across the Himalayas", had also said that “while India is our friend, China is our brother”. And later in 1988 in Delhi it was Mikhail Gorbachev who had emphatically stated (when asked by Indian news-reporters at a press conference in Vigyan Bhavan whether the USSR would come to India’s aid if she were to be attacked by China) that China will never again attack India. 4) During the latter half of the Cold War era, India was indeed functioning like a proxy state of the USSR despite all protestations to the contrary, while supreme national interests dictated that India adopt a more balanced policy like Finland when it came to procuring weapon systems from global sources, the USSR included.

raw13 said...

I think the issue wrt afghanistan over the last few days has been:

Anonymous said...

How many SAM batteries do you think are needed to protect the Tibet border from IAF or vise versa? Unless the area is saturated with multi-layered radar SAMs this is a hopeless task and far too expensive. This is illogical and it is for this reason its not been done!

Su35 has many advantages over the su30MKI. Over tibet what will really matter is engine power. It is one of the main reasons why f-22 rules over 40K+ ft even when it is seen. Su-35 with the 117s will also rule over all until the PAKFA gets in the mix over the tibet border. The conflict will be one networked system against another. However the advantages of each node are multiplied even more. Here imagine an SU30MIk with super duper avonics with its RCS of 15+ will be by targeted by an aircraft with:
-much faster acceleration
-greater operation height
-RCS of <3
-greater kinetics extends the BVR kill zone.
-I have assumed the avonics are the same(even though su35 is 10+yrs youngers)

The SU30MKI becomes a fat duckling.

The only reason PLAAF would even consider SU35, is it ability to completely neutralise the IAFs wonder boy.

IAF are in trouble. They have another variable to think of. Think what is going through the minds of the IAF pilots....they know how good their beloved SU30MKI is and unlike the nationalists they know that SU35 is 10yrs younger and is a massive upgrade to SU 30. and they are about to face one!

Gessler said...

To Anon @7:21PM

Ofcourse...except that Su-30MKI is operational in IAF and present at Tibet border while PLAAF can hope to acquire Su35 by 2015 at the earliest, but by then, you have a whole new MKI (Super Sukhoi) to face.

The SS-MKI is like 10yrs younger than Su35 and comes with systems originally designed for 5th generation PAK-FA.

In early 21st century, PLAAF was inducted aircraft with slotted-array radars while at the same time IAF was procuring PESA radar-equipped jets.

By 2015, PLAAF will be acquiring PESA-equipped jets while IAF starts inducting AESA radar-equipped jets. You sir, are an over-optimistic bundle of flesh.

Anonymous said...

You forget PLAAF has:


these will also be upgraded.

what you fail to grasp is that no matter how much you upgrade the su30. It is still an upgrade. it will not be able to reduce its RCS from 15+ to <3. Unless you change the whole frame. It is off course cheaper to buy the su35. Otherwise USAF would have simply upgraded the F15 ratherthan go for the F22.

Anonymous said...

Hi Prasun,

How does this impact indo-iranian ties? India was hoping to get to CA through iran.

If pak and iran do come together. CA is completely blocked. This looks likely as even the saudi will not try to block this as reports in pak media are already blaming US and Saudi for delaying this and making the average abdul suffer. Saudi simply cannot afford to do it. That is to become an object of hatred in Pak. All their work for the past 40yrs would become zero. and iran would win.

Has zardari played a master card here? has he checkmated both US and Saudi and India in one masterstroke? Is even karazi playing to his tune? What is going on?

Gessler said...

To Anon @8:03PM

Oh please...!

Su27s are on their way out. There will be very few (if any at all) left in service by 2015 (when Su35 possibly arrives, provided deal is signed and sealed this year).

Su30, J-11A are basically the same fighter, they have the same engines, same avionics and same weapon package (mostly). Both Su-30MKK and J-11A are inferior to present-day Su-30MKI. Don't think I need to tell you how.

First let Varyag (Liaoning) get operational then talk of flying Su33 (J-15) from it on combat missions, even then, the Varyag will be floating nowhere near Indian Ocean, it will be roaming out South/East China Seas and the J-15s can do nothing from there.

RCS can be reduced manifold with application of new-generation RAM technology.

Super-MKI's AESA radar will have no trouble jamming Su-35's PESA whatsover.

A low RCS does not mean victory. The USAF has F-16 Block-50s with 1 square meter RCS (clean load) with advanced AESA radars. SO WHY IS CHINA WASTING MONEY ON SU-35 WHEN IT KNOWS ITS NO MATCH EVEN FOR DECADES-OLD AMERICAN AIRCRAFT??

Anonymous said...

Sir your comments on the official (I really don't know what to say) inauguration of the Iran Pakistan gas pipeline with regards to the following facts:
1.The security situation in Balochistan (given routine attacks on gas pipelines)
2.The capital required for this task...Pakistan has none and international agencies will stay clear of anything Iran
3.The effect of this project (if it comes to anything) on Pakistan's lifeline of subsidized oil from the "Sunni" Gulf states (in view of the ongoing Sunni/Wahabi-Shia proxy war)
4.Your empathetic view of other options available to Pakistan to come out of the energy crisis.

Sir, (I know how ungrateful I sound saying this but) your blog really needs a visual overhaul. The current template looks so archaic and "powerpoint" (reminds me of HAL presentations) and is totally undeserving of your wise words.

DAshu said...

yes raw13 is correct. my concern was related to that report

Anonymous said...

*what do you make of the news here --

*found some interesting reads online on turkish-isi collaboraton on nukes. would love to get your insights.

*talking about nukes - how does the parsi community view themselves (identity wise). have there been attempts by them to help iran?


Anonymous said...

Hi Prasun,

What did the French govt learn from the Larkhin brothers episode?

regarding the indian economy, hope NDA comes to power and does what the Vajpaee did in his 5 year term - liberalizing the economy which will have multiplier effects - create more jobs, poverty alleviation,all round development.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Anon@7.21PM: Looks like you haven’t even bothered to make a cursory appreciation of the terrain on both sides of the LAC, hence your illogical rants. For instance, your ill-informed question of “How many SAM batteries do you think are needed to protect the Tibet border from IAF or vice versa? Unless the area is saturated with multi-layered radar SAMs this is a hopeless task and far too expensive.” The reality is that there are only 3 routes of ingress/egress for manned combat aircraft from either side in & around Sikkim, Uttarakhand & eastern Ladakh—all of them offering terrain-masking options for optimum exploitation. To plug such routes for either side one doesn’t require more than 9 Batteries of MR-SAMs. Secondly, it will be far more easier for the IAF to degrade the PLAAF’s networked air-defences spread over the TAR plateau with cruise missiles if reqd, leave alone manned combat aircraft. Thirdly, RCS is the very least of one’s concerns when flying over TAR since terrain-hugging flights will be the norm there for precision-strike purposes. Fourthly, there’s a lot more that a two-man aircrew can achieve through concurrent operations instead of a single-man crew who can only undertake operations in a sequential manner. Fifthly, have you ever bothered to find out exactly how many Su-27SKs are presently operational with the PLAAF as of now? So far, more than 47 have crashed since 1989 & are permanent write-offs, while the rest have already reached the end of their TTSLs & require decommissioning. Sixthly, the J-11As/J-11Bs do not have the same power-to-weight ratio as the Su-27SK/Su-27UBK & are totally incapable of operating over TAR. Seventhly, even over TAR, BVR combat won’t take place at altitudes of 40,000 feet simply because the PLAAF’s Su-27s, Su-30s, J-11s & J-10s do not have the kind of on-board oxygen generation systems that an F/A-22 has. An lastly, here are a few words of wisdom that will encourage you to spend your time more productively instead of trolling here:

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Anon@8.31PM & 9.42PM & DASHU: The views & opinions of all discerning Pakistani commentators can be seen & heard here:

Here’s the bottomline: First, the Iran-Pakistan gas pipeline project’s takeoff is a pre-general elections political gimmick on the PPP’s part. Second, the project will see Iranian gas being obtained at rates that are untenable & are unaffordable by most Pakistanis. Third, for as long as there’s no permanent peace in Balochistan, this project is highly vulnerable to sabotage by the BLA. Fourth, Balochistan will continue to be a serious law-and-order dilemma for Pakistan for as long as Pakistan continues its proxy war within Afghanistran & Afghanistan & the US in turn continue to support the BLA & TTP in Balochistan & FATA, which will keep both Balochistan & Karachi aflame. Fifth, Pakistan Army, in retaliation, has therefore been using its non-state proxies like Lashkar-e-Toiba, Jaish-e-Mohammad, Lashkar-e-Jhangvi & Sipaha-e-Sahaba against the BLA (this is why J & K has been trouble-free for the past two years). Sixth, the US covert involvement in Balochistan will increase in the months to come with the support of its Arab allies like Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, the UAE & Qatar. The targets will be both Iranian expatriates as well as Haara Shias. This task of the US & Afghanistan is now much simpler since the Pakistani Sunni non-state actors have become mercenaries for all intents & purposes & are therefore willing to do anyone’s bidding for as long as the targets are Shias & for as long as there’s handsome monetary compensation to be paid for their mercenary activities. Seven, All this is likely to result in greater international calls in support of Balochistan’s right to national self-determination through secession from Pakistan & if this were to happen, then Pakistan will lose both Gwadar Port & all the Iranian gas, while Afghanistan will be the nett gainer since an independent Balochistan will then serve as Afghanistan’s & Central Asia’s gateway to the Arabian Sea & the NATO ISAF forces won’t have any more problems in securing their overland routes for either withdrawal or for re-entry whenever reqd. Eight, Russia’s GAZPROM (which is building an electricity transmission line from Iran to Pakistan) & China will have no other option then but to support Balochistan’s independence movement since for both countries it is far more important to stabilise Central Asia rather than prop up the globally discredited political regimes in either Iran or Pakistan. Nine, for India all this will come as a great relief since she will no longer be reqd to set up alternate overland trade routes to Central Asia via Iran’s Chah Bahr Port & will instead be able to use Gwadar Port. Ten, The GCC member-states have all realised now that it was the Pakistan-China axis that gave the Iranians the capability to produce nuclear WMDs, thereby neutralising the so-called ‘Islamic N-Bomb’ capability that the Arabs had all along mistakenly assumed would be made available to them by Pakistan for use against Iran. Lasrtly, all of the above may well explain why the GCC member-states are more likely to dump Pakistan in future & instead deepen their economic ties with countries like India and the Central Asian Republics. As an adjunct to the above, do read the following:

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Anon@11.47PM: This is a typical third-country industrial espionage operation using Turkish proxies. The sting operation was definitely a multinational effort involving the Indians, Turks & Germans. The Arak facility is the most crucial for Iran’s quest for WMDs since this facility is a plutonium-generating heavy water reactor. It also proves my earlier assertion that neither Pakistan nor Iran were ever interested in fabricating WMDs using weapons-grade HEU & instead have always wanted weapons-grade plutonium-type fissile materials. While Pakistan’s 10 plutonium-based n-warheads have been supplied off-the-shelf by China, Iran is still groping in the dark for such fissile materials. India’s Parsi community are followers of Zarathushtra & they have no cultural or religious linkages with the Iranians since the medieval era. In fact, all Iranian followers of Zarathushtra have been persecuted inside Iran just like the Bahais & therefore the Parsis of India have no love lost for the present-day Iranians.

To Anon@12.21AM: The French got to know everything they wanted to about India’s 10-year force-modernisation plans beginning 1980 & about India’s intention to put all her eggs into the Soviet basket, the reasons for which became known in the previous decade after the Kremlin Archives became accessible for Russian historians.

Gessler said...,d.bmk

Nirbhay test today, says Anantha Krishnanji.

Gessler said...

Nirbhay successfully test-fired from complex-3 at ITR.

Congrats to everyone, and Prasun.

Gessler said...

LiveFist reports that Nirbhay is powered by PATE-7 turbojet as on Lakshya target drone.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To GESSLER: Not "is powered by PATE-7 turbojet" but "is understood to be powered by the HAL PTAE-7 turbojet engine". There's a big difference between the two. The truth about the second-stage powerplant will be revealed soon by DRDO. Just wait & see the fun then! The TEL (bottommost pix) for test-firing the Nirbhay was fabricated by L & T & its scale-model was first shown by L & T at DEFEXPO 2008.

Gessler said...

Thanks for correction. Earlier Shiv Aroorji was claiming that its powered by Saturn 36MT.

Desi journos have no standards, no sir.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To GESSLER: What is also wrong is this statement: "Though, journalist Prasun Sengupta suggests the Nirbhay is virtually identical to the Tomahawk" (see:

Firstly, I never claimed to be a journalist. Secondly, my earlier visuals of the Nirbhay that were uploaded did not even remotely resemble the Tomahawk. God knows how these 'desi' entities end up with such assumptions & then making false attributions. Lastly, anyone with a modicum of knowledge on turbofans will realise that the 36MT from NPO Saturn was never designed for long-range cruise missiles, but for tactical cruise missiles like Kh-59ME. NPO Saturn's detailed brochure on the 36MT says this as such.

Hunt said...

Hehehee... :D @Prasunji,

It'll really funny to see people assuming different things to fill in their analogies (Some times they end up embarrassing every one).

rad said...

I am not overly sad about the failure of the nirbhay to complete its mission. After all in missile tech we have to crawl walk and then run. 1) transition from booster to turbojet is proved
2) the engine has been proven to operate satisfactorily in sustained flight.I would be more concerned if there was an engine deficiency as it would entail a great delay. I feel its easier to correct software in the guidance system rather than hardware .At least a flight of 200 kms was achieved ie for 17 min @ approx 700kmh .Please detail the israeli input for the program if it is true. Your comment please.

3rd ~ EyE said...

Nirbhay veered off mid course ... :( ... any info on reasons ???

rad said...

Why dont we have a tactical cruise missile program like the pakis. Its easy with israeli tech. we can ask the russians to do a brahmos type off collaboration for the kh-59. WE can hang a minimum of 4 on the sukhois. we can get various homming heads from them as well .290Km versions should be more than enough for pak targets. Sending ac in to bomb runways today is suicidal with all the spada, 35 mm canon and anzas , and there will be terrible losses .During the gulf war the allies in spite of their ew warfare and all their hi tech stuff got kicked by the iraqis using sa-16 and canon fire and tornadoes got so shot up that the Italians did not send them in again .
I think we have no other alternative than firing cruise missiles to take out HAS , radars, runways etc from a stand off distance as loosing one sukhoi or a mirage will cost us 70 mill $ . A cruise missile from the russians should cost us 1 mill $ i think .
It would be nice to see a flight of sukhois unleash 4 missiles each simultaneously at an airfield , even with 50% success the cost effectiveness would be very high. Rafales with AASM is an alternative But the ac should be within 50 km if i am right .Please coment.

Anonymous said...

I am afraid you grabbed the wrong end of the stick. read my comments wrt to SU35 again. I know the topography of the tibetan plateau.

It is due to the engines and the ability of the SU35 to operate at higher altitude that may attract PLAAF to it.

You are also absolutely mistaken if you think SU30 with 2 person is better than SU35 with one person. Maybe you should tell the USAF to switch the F-22 & F-35 to 2 person!!! The PLAAF also for the J20 & J31.

Or like most indians, anything india imports has, has to be the best!!! even 15yrs after it was developed!

raw13 said...


Man you are living in cloud cookoo land. GCC dump Pak and back India. Hav you seen what they do to indians in the GCC. SLAP SLAP SLAP. Whereas paks are doing all the security roles. What did Qatar, Kuwait and Bahrain do when arab revolution happened? Import more from pak for their police and army. GCC knows (if you ever go there) that pak stands by its friends even in the face of NATO, US. On the street its called respect!

On the otherhand what did India do to iran under a little glare from uncle sam? shit its pants and dump the iranians. This is what the people of GCC re-call and they have long memories.

I have said it before you guys simply do not understand our way of doing things. We still remember the help iranians gave us in 65 and appreciate it. You guys dump your friends for few dollars more ;-)

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Anon@4.29PM: Another piece of advice before you start brainfarting: do some homework for a change. You can start by reading this:
And as for India importing anything 15 years after it has been developed, I distinctly remember SUKHOI OKB having first rolled out the Su-35 & even its Su-37 version in the mid-1990s. So, how old would these models be today? And why is China still importing them 20 years after they left the drawing boards???

To RAW13: Pakistani human resources of the type you’ve referred to are imported by GCC countries for only one obvious reason: they’ve no value & are therefore expendable—a fact reflected during OP Badr in 1999 when no one from the Pakistan Army’s HQ or GHQ even bothered to (and still does not bother to) acknowledge them or their sacrifices on the battlefield. On the street this is called BETRAYAL! On the other hand, what did Pakistan do a decade ago under a little glare from Uncle Sam when Libya’s WMD programme was exposed? Instead of protecting the dignity of a ‘brotherly’ Muslim country, Pakistan was the first to squeal by extracting a confession from Dr A Q ‘Bhopali’ Khan in which he was made to expose Libya’s WMD acquisition efforts. This then was followed by Pakistan supplying samples of its P-1 centrifuges to the IAEA, which then led to the global exposure by the IAEA & Uncle Sam of Iran’s WMD acquisition efforts—this being a classic case of one brotherly Islamic Republic stabbing another neighbouring Islamic Republic on the back, all this being done in order to appease Uncle Sam. So, who has dumped whom? Looks like Pakistan has a sterling record in such matters, all in the name of Muslim brotherhood. Do keep it up & attain even greater heights on similar cases in future, all for the sake of a few dollars more from Uncle Sam, while trying to stay alive in your ‘cloud cookoo land’, for everyone now understands fully well the way things are done by you guys.

Anonymous said...

Prasun Da .. why is Iran refered as a friend of india? They have openly supported pakistan in 65-71 war.

D said...

To rad@2.34pm
1.There was no engine deficiency,it was shut down before termination of the missile
2.The missile covered a distance of 250kms before deviations were observed
3.Check out the link below it contains pics of the missile debris in addition to the points mentioned above

sntata said...

Prasun to raw13
A failed terrorist state sells its [Islamic] soul to Uncle Sam for a fistful of dollars and its deluded citizen, living in 'cloud cuckoo land', thinks that it is the leader of Islamic world! Ho Ho Ho!

Mr. Ra 13 said...

Either they should not do the maiden test at all or they should do it underground.

Anyhow good attempt, better luck next time.

sathead3 said...

@Mr Ra13, Cruise missile test and underground?

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To HUNT: Check out the bottommost paragraph of the following (latest) thread.

To RAD: No Israeli inputs came for this project. Israeli inputs were required for the SLBM project. There’s every reason to be happy if not overjoyed with the results of the Nirbhay’s maiden test-flight. Conventionally armed version of Nirbhay will be a tactical multi-role cruise missile & will be as effective as the 700km-range Taurus KEPD-350. Su-30MKI & Rafale will be able to carry four such ALCMs.

To 3RD-EYE: Suspected navigational waypoint pre-programming error, i.e. human error.

To Anon@8.31PM: That’s because India likes to use a technique against Iran called ‘humour me’. But many Iranians today genuinely prefer India to Pakistan, just as Afghanistan does.

To SNTATA: Check out the latest thread.

To Mr.RA 13: Come come…no need to get so disillusioned…read the contents of the latest thread. Things were not as bad as being made out to be by the congenital retards hailing from India’s ‘desi’ print/electronic media.

Mr. Ra 13 said...

sathead3 said...
@Mr Ra13, Cruise missile test and underground?

Here underground indicates as hidden.

To Respected PKS: Thanx for the consolation.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Mr.RA 13: Always most welcome.