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Saturday, August 24, 2013

Weapons Deployed Inside TAR For On-Going PLA Exercises


Prasun K. Sengupta said...

For those interesting in knowing what exactly went wrong in 1962 and again in mid-1999, kindly see the following presentations, among others, by former COAS Gen (Ret’d) V P Malik & former CAS ACM (Retd’) A Y Tipnis:

Bhaswar said...

Sir, will you be providing a write up on these systems and what threat they pose to us?

So is there any hope for the Chitradurga range then?

Any chance we shall catch a glimpse of this "Arjun Mk.2 complete with ALL modifications" undergoing tests? Sir why would the IA place orders for a larger no. of the same given that the O-level maintenance for the Arjun is probably still very lacking and the IA will then have to resort to depot level maintenance? If they do procure more modified Arjun Mk.1s then what shall be the final number as such and by what time can we hope to see sufficient numbers being fielded?

Weren't we going to take help from DCNS for the SSN program, why the sudden shift to Russia?

Sir when you state that roads leading to the Pannagarh HQ and surrounding areas shall not be completed by 2020 are you alluding to delays due to our wonderful govt. and bureaucracy or are you asserting that they shall NEVER come up due to getting scrapped during some phase or the other?

Will these roads be all whether four lane roads like the one's the Chinese have built?

financeblogger said...

It has been quite a while, you had mentioned that in case of submarine design selection, the end user i.e. the navy was not consulted. In your recent comments, you have mentioned about Russian offer for subsequent submarines which in your opinion makes great sense.
The inference that I draw here is Russian offer would make more sense than the French offer(Baracuda).
From technical, technology, safety, maintenance, future up-gradation perspective how would you rate the Russian offer v/s the French offer?
In your recent comments, you had mentioned that Vietnam Navy would regret purchase of Kilo class submarines in the long run. A kind request to elaborate on the same.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

This is interesting:

Subir said...

Sir, VMT

1.The one i know off is that LM was developing the flight control laws and the redundant FBW for Tejas and has also provided ADA with the necessary know how and know why for designing these systems indigenously.

1.In the L-70 Bofors that was shown in the Ndtv vid it didnt look like that it had provisions for automatic laying. It didnt also had the thermal imager and the sights which the L70 got after the 2007 upgrades.

2.Maybe it was to be used as a direct fire weapon,not an AAA after all.

3.Is the ZU-23-2 manually or electrically laid throu joysticks when it is being used as AAA. The some pics of it which i have seen of ZU-23-2, in them there were 2 operators and they were manually laying as well as firing the gun.

Is the 106 mm RCL still in service?I assumed it was phased out after 1971 Indo Pak war.

4.Doesnt the Tejas mk1 having el/m-2032 mmr. It has detailed air to ground modes-sar,istar,gmti/t along with terrain avoidance. With all these modes Tejas can surely carry and provide targetting data to those agm and glide weapons. Whats happening here actually ?

5.Maybe that island where the NASD is situated is nt in Google Earthor in other maps. And does IAF also store ordance both aam and agm in such underground super hardened structures ?

7.Why hasnt the Tejas fired any bvraam till now? Whats the pount of carrying out so many weapon trilas without even firing the Derby. Jaguar IS is there for dropping dumb bombs.No one needs the Tejas for that.

8.In the event of any hostility how will the conventionally armed PLA 2nd corps DF-21 and other MRBM and IRBM be used against us ??

Pls ans them and provide a short narrative of each of the weapons deployed and what impcat it has on India and how IA,IAF needs to be prepared against them,what will be the bes t way to neutralise these threats adn negeate the advantages PLA is enjoying with their superior tube based artillery firepower.

Subir said...

Sir,what is going on?Why doesnt the BSF and IA respond to events like these?Uptill now it was China and now it is Myanmnar army. I think some sale is going on. 60 percent discounts are being given infiltrators. Nobody seems to say anything. Now everbody is too busy with the Mumbai gangrape case.Next Bangladesh brder teams will also camp inside India.Everbody is doing whatever they like. The rupee is falling.The GoI doesnt seem to have serious headache with them.. No Rafale deal this fiscal. Congress is now too busy with 2014 elections and the Fodd security bill.The state of things is indeed very very bad.

Bhaswar said...

I am guessing the final nail has been hammered in. The economy teeters on the brink of collapse. The government claims to have lost files on the scam that beats all scams. The opposition is more concerned with piddling about and projecting their candidates AND THE MYANMAR ARMY IS NOW INFILTRATING INTO INDIAN TERRITORY.

Should I start looking for asylum in some other nation, before we get gobbled up by even the likes of Myanmar?

Bhaswar said...

AND I am guessing a change in government won't help much either will it? Since all our sainted babus pick their plays out of the same playbook.

To have known such shame- such shame to be an Indian today.

NEEL said...

Now Myanmar.Next Bangladesh,then Srilanka,etc...etc.

It is just because of a corrupt-spineless,weak gov.

And this is the WAR Of ATTRITION lead by Pakistan & supported by China.

Rupee falls & Uncle Sam silently laughs.

sasi said...

Prasun da,
did we have any of this? Mobile(?)
2.)//the existing Corps-level formations in the NE-IV Corps in Tezpur & XXXIII Corps in Siliguri-have had enough forces & firepower since the mid-1980sto undertake limited tactical offensive operations along the LAC// what is our situation regard to N-command facing china?(defensive-offensive).
3.)what is it 300km sam Avinash spoke abt?
Thank u,

Ag said...

Is it true that china has bought the production line of backfire i.e tu 23 bombers

3rd ~ EyE said...

how true is this report ?

Pintu said...

Prasun Da, is it true, that our leaders gone so spineless that now even Myanmar is encroaching our land openly ?

Pintu said...

Prasun Da, it states that Myanmar Army kept their activity on hold, now the images posted by the

The body language of the the Army official of Myanmar on a dominating pose, does reflect the stance taken by his higher authorities ?

Vikram Guha said...

PrasunDa ,

The IA recently released a RFI for procuring AIR DEFENSE GUN SYSTEM

Which companies do you think will apply for this project ?


RD said...

The pictures in TAR are really scary for us. India is no match for China. Now U r saying that we don't have money for rafale,p75i,etc. If this continues then in 2014 we will hear that we have no money for buying bullets or to give salary to defence sector employees.The Govt. has implemented tax on every damn thing & can't understand where is the money going.

Lastly regarding Myanmar army adventure I am quite sure some internal hand is working. The state of Manipur where AFSPA is implemented some resentment has been growing for quite some time. The present govt. has understood that it will be impossible to hold the power in 2014 so they have hatched a conspiracy to burn every part of the border making situation miserable for NDA or Third Front or whoever comes to power. In real life also crimes,scams r impossible to commit without political support.

Littlemaster said...

1.Is it possible for HAL to roll out tejas mk2 prototype by next year.Isnt its payload 5500 kg.

2.What is the present status of Chitradurga ECM range? Is it under construction now?

3.When will the upgraded Mirage 2000 mk5 return to India from France?When will Hal undertake upgradation and ttsl expansion of the rest of the fleet incountry ?

4.The 1st Jaguar IS Darin 3 was to ahve its 1st flight last month.Now its August and theres no news of it. What is the progress of Darin 3 upgrade.

5.Did IAF Su30mki with elm-2060p pods kept an eye on those wargames and exercises which took place within 400 km from LAC? Ws the Risat 2 used ?

6.What will be the best anti missile defense that can be put up against DF-16,21,25 IRBM and MRBM.They will in all probabilty be used against high value military installations in case of a contingency..The Barak-2 wont stand any chances aginst these.

7.Has Drdo conducted any BMD tests where the Prthvi target vehicle was optimised and made to mimic PLA Df-16 and 21 ballistic missiles. ?During the last test of bmd wasnt the Prthvi target a 2 stage solid fuelled missile.

8.If PLA can have so many varities of IFV,APC,tank destroyers,assault guns,LAV why is IA sticking to teh obsiolete BMP-1,2 and some few BTR-70.Why isnt new modern APC and IFV being purchased.

9.The same old Bmp-2 contyinues to remain in production in OFB without any improvements in armour protection or mobility.

10.The HQ-9 has 150 km missile rounds.The TAR is relatively flat.Its impossible to engage in terrain masking. How can IAF jets engage targets being protected by HQ-9 batteries?They can shoot and scoot and disperes once an arm launch is detected. An IAF fighter jet armed with dumb non standoff bombs which are still in production by OFB will never reach within 10 km of target.

11.there are anti radiation missile rounds for Hq-9 and LY-80E sam systems.When an escort jammer or self defensive jammer is used,these missile rounds can lock on to the emissions source and destroy the target.

12.IAF has just 80-100 max Popeye,Kh-59 and other standoff aitr ground missiles and even standoff pgm spice 1000,iai msow. With such meagre offensive weapons IAF can never hope to interdict supply lines or neutralise tropop concentartions in TAR. All bombing and strike ops needs to be carried out in sstandoff distances.

13.Why is IN opting for a 2nd line of mediem range patrol acs.What happened to ordering more P-8I. Was the planned 4 more P8I ordered ?Is there any particular reason behind the decison to acquire another 9 MRPA.

14.has Navy set its eyes on any particular MPA/sensors systems among the various contenders.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To BHASWAR: A picture is always worth a thousand words. They’re self-evident in terms of the lessons that the PLA has learnt well from the IA’s OP Vijay & PA’s OP Badr. For instance, the 120mm PF-98A RCL, QLB-06 high-velocity AGL & the flamethrowers have been custom-developed for usage against bunkers located in mountainous terrain & that too from safe distances. In contrast, the IA can presently muster only the 84mm Carl Gustav RCL, shorter-range Vektor 40mm AGL & C-90 bunker-bursting LAW. Similarly, the PLA has introduced both the ZTZ-99A1 medium battle tank with 120mm smoothbore cannon opposite Ladakh/Uttarakhand & the heavier ZTZ-96G MBT with 125mm facing Bhutan & Sikkim. However, the PLA greatest advantage over its Indian counterparts, however, lies in superior command-and-control. For instance, in the event of limited but high-intensity hostilities, the PLA will have an integrated military command whose commander will be C-in-C of the Tibet Military District (TMD), similar to the US concept of single integrated geographical commands, & under him will be all warfighting elements of the PLA Army & PLAAF. He will be reporting directly to the Central Military Commission (CMC), which is headed by the President of China, while the 2nd-in-command is the Defence Minister, who is a serving PLA Army four-star General & who therefore also functions as the Chief of Defence Staff. In India’s case, the IA’s command-and-control along the LAC is split between its Eastern Command, Central Command & Northern Command, while the IAF is split between the Eastern Air Command, Central Air Command & Western Air Command. Consequently, unlike the PLA’s TMD, India does not have a single integrated operational warfighting plan. On top of all this, the PLA’s 2nd Artillery Corps can muster a wide variety of conventionally armed NLOS-BSMs, TBMs & even MRBMs, whereas in India’s case, only the BrahMos-1 Block-3 is available. What India therefore needs to do is, firstly, embrace far-reaching structural reforms in terms of doing away with the IA’s & IAF’s existing standalone geographical command structure & replace them with integrated geographical commands. Secondly, airpower being indivisible, the IAF, like the USAF, must restructure its command structure & have an air combat command, transportation command & missile command. Thirdly, in terms of long-range firepower, BrahMos-1 Block-3 must be supplemented in large numbers by solid-fuelled Prithvi-3 NLOS-BSMs & air-launched/conventionally armed version of Nirbhay LACM.
Cont’d below…

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

Cont’d from above….
No decision has been made so far on whether to go with DCNS or with Russia regarding the IN’s projected SSN reqmt. It can also be a mixture of both in terms of selecting the Russian hull design but equipping it several sub-systems of French origin (i.e. ones that have already been selected for the Scorpene SSK), while the PWR will be India-made.
Regarding your last question, kindly listen to what Gen (Ret’d) V P Malik had to say about the formation of the new Panagarh-based Corps.
And as for the tottering state of the economy, the best & most exhaustive analysis of this state of affairs, as well as what’s to be done to rectify this mess, is available here:

To FINANCEBLOGGER: No decision has been made so far on whether to go with DCNS or with Russia regarding the IN’s projected SSN reqmt. It can also be a mixture of both in terms of selecting the Russian hull design but equipping it several sub-systems of French origin (i.e. ones that have already been selected for the Scorpene SSK), while the PWR will be India-made. Therefore, in terms of safety/reliability parameters as well as cost-effectiveness, the above solution makes perfect sense, since India has already acquired the necessary shore-based support infrastructure reqd for servicing submarine designs of both Russian (the S-2/S-3/S-4 SSBNs) & French (Scorpene SSK) origin.
In the South China Sea, it will be interesting to watch the operational patrols of both the PLA Navy’s eight Type 636 Kilo-class SSKs as well as the Vietnam Navy’s six Type 636 Kilo-class SSKs.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To SUBIR: It seems you totally disregarded my advice. Consequently, you will have to seek answers to the following: 1) which country has opened the doors of its higher educational institutions the most since 1947 for India & continues to do so? 2) Which country helped India usher in the Green Revolution since the late 1960s? 3) Which country’s institutions of higher military learning have produced successive chiefs of the IA, IN & IAF? 4) Which country’s high-tech military-industrial facilities trained the first crop of NSTL technocrats/sonar specialists like Cmdre (Ret’d) S Paulraj & Dr V K Aatre? 5) Which country under its ‘Atoms for Peace’ programme trained the India DAE’s human resources & shared almost all that was there to know about atomic energy? 6) Which country provided India with an unsafeguarded PHWR for producing weapons-grade plutonium & which country trained the DAE to reprocess spent fuel & extract weapons-grade plutonium? 7) From which country’s training institutions do the IAF’s & IN’s experimental test-pilots graduate from? 8) Which country has provided training & intellectual capital for successive generations of scientists & engineers of ISRO? 9) To which country do the sons/daughters of the majority of senior DAE/DRDO scientists/engineers head out for when it comes to achieving higher education excellence?..........Certainly not Russia or China or Japan or the UK or Germany or France.

When it comes to sharing one’s intellectual/knowledge capital on a no-holds-barred, no one can beat the US. And that’s why the best brains of India continue to head for that country. Still don’t believe me? Then read this:

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To NEEL: It is only a minor mis-understanding with Myanmar & the matter will soon be resolved. Far more worrying & embarrassing, however, is the recent decision by Bangladesh to go to the International Court of Justice to fight its case for New Moore Island, which both India & Bangladesh claim & which, by the way, is no more an island, but just a sandbank.

SASI: 1) No, it is Ukraine-designed counter-stealth radar that is now being series-produced by China’s CETC. 2) Kindly read the explanation provided above to BHASWAR. 3) The PDV.

To AG: Totally untrue.

To 3rd EYE: Total hogwash & pure baloney.

To PINTU: It is only a minor mis-understanding with Myanmar & the matter will soon be resolved. Far more worrying & embarrassing, however, is the recent decision by Bangladesh to go to the International Court of Justice to fight its case for New Moore Island, which both India & Bangladesh claim & which, by the way, is no more an island, but just a sandbank.

To VIKRAM GUHA: OEMs from Russia, Poland, Serbia, Greece, Italy, Switzerland & France. The best solution was undoubtedly from Rheinmetall Air Defence, but the company screwed up big-time by enlisting the services of Abhishek Verma. By the way, remember you asking me about why the likes of Drs J C Bose or Meghnad Saha are no longer to be found in India, & what my answer was? Well, here’s more proof of my assertion:

To RD: Do watch this:

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To LITTLEMASTER: 1) No way. 2) Yes. 3) By early next year. 4) It takes at least 2 years to validate the upgrade package. 5) Of course. 6) There’s no need for anti-missile defences. What’s required is the large-scale procurement by India of NLOS-BSMs, TBMs & ALCMs. The best anti-missile defence system is always one that uses directed-energy weapons. 7) No. No. 8) There’s no need to purchase them from abroad. Existing T-72Ms can easily be modified as tank destroyers like the BMP-T & be equipped with Nag ATGMs. Several such innovative indigenous solutions can easily be developed. But sadly, the country’s RM has no time to encourage such options since he is now very busy with the formation of Telengana state. Shit happens!!! 9) BMP-2 now has the BUSK add-on armour package. 10) Terrain-hugging, not terrain-masking, is resorted to when flying over flat terrain. In addition, tactical ALCMs can easily knock out such LR-SAM sites, since they’re not always land-mobile. 11) No need at all. ALCMs like Nirbhay or even KEPD-350 Taurus will suffice. 12) The Nirbhay ALCM will be produced in large enough numbers to take care of such targets. 13 & 14) It’s really a stupid decision. Looks like the IN wants to deny the ICGS the usage of MRMR/MP aircraft. It’s a plain-and-simple turf war that can easily be avoided if the RM decides to use his brain. The IN ought to stick to only LRMR/ASW platforms & acquire no less than 24 P-8Is. No one else in the world is trying to do what the IN’s trying to do, which can only mean that the IN wants to prevent the ICGS from operating medium-range maritime patrol aircraft, i.e. the IN wants to have the cake & eat it as well……really short-sighted & smacks of a ‘bania’ mentality.

Bhaswar said...

VMT for the answers Prasun Da,

But how can a misunderstanding lead the Burmese army to enter Indian territory and start building a camp? How quickly do you think this scenario will be resolved? Will we now see repeated infiltration attempts from Burma too?

The PDV is to be tested this year, no? What are its characteristic? Any chance we will employ some better targets this time rather than the Prithvis?

How can the K-4 be ranged at 4500km? What will be its dimensions, 10 meters length and 1.3-1.4 meters diameter right? All most all of the "interviews" and "reports" state that the K-4 will have a range between 3000 to 3500Km?

How did we end up developing the TRMs for the CABS AEW&C so quickly, Israeli help? Won't we be able to similarly fabricate x-band TRMs too? Where is this fabrication facility, I thought we lacked the manufacturing capabilities required to fabricate TRMs?

Has the MOD finally seen reason and pressured the otherwise intransigent HAL into shelving the AMCA under the pretext of the economic troubles? Even if they were so hell bent on a tech demonstrator/science project in line with their usual proclivities wouldn't it have made greater sense to fashion such a 5th gen AC around an engine like the PAK-FA's? Sure that would require a much larger design but at least then they'd have some chance of success.

Won't the navies warship projects beyonf the P-15A grind to a halt given the economic scenario?

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To BHASWAR: The issue with Myanmar will be resolved fairly quickly, if not already resolved. Hopefully the PDV will be test-fired this year but not in its final configuration, since a lot of on-board systems are still under development, but airframe development through test-flights needs to begin ASAP. K-4’s diameter will have to be enlarged if its length is to be limited to 10 metres while achieving a range of 6,500km. T/R modules of the S-band AEW & CS radar have been under development by DRDO since 1998, meaning they took 13 years to reach the production-stage. L-band T/R modules have also been developed since 2002 & only last year was the development of X-band T/R modules taken up. AMCA was not being pushed by HAL, but by ADA. Construction of P-15B DDGs & P-17A FFGs will be slowed down for sure.

Bhaswar said...

VMT sir,

What I meant was that the current K-4 is stated to have a range of 3000-3500Km, but you've stated that it has a range of 4500Km which will be increased to 6500Km in the next decade when larger boomer arrive. What I was asking was what are the dimensions of the current 4500Km version?

So it will take us perhaps a decade to produce x-band TRMs? Is that all that is required to then produce an AESA radar for fighters or are there other components.

Do you see the economy picking up in about 2-3 years or is this going to be a long spell?

Is there any chance in the future that we shall be able to bring political/party/election funding under the ambit of the RTI or transparency laws in the future? I've always been of the opinion that one of the major reasons, along with other factors, of systemic corruption in the nation is the below the table election funding and that there is perhaps only a difference in quantum wrt corruption between the various parties otherwise they all follow the same gameplan? Or will enacting such controls remain a foolish dream?

Furthermore VMT for posting those videos at the beginning of the page.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

Dimensions of the K-4 haven’t been made public so far, but its diameter will have to be increased significantly. The quoted figure of 3,500km was provisional & was not the definitive sanctioned figure. The missile’s designers are now working on its 4,500km-range version, which will go on board the S-2/S-3/S-4 SSBNs. The most challenging part of developing any airborne multi-mode fire-control radar is not the radar itself, but its environment control system & its coolant sub-systems, all of which have to be validated through extensive flight-tests. Economy will pick up the moment the Govt starts functioning & begins leading. Right now, both aren’t happening. India’s on-going democratic experiment today is just like what democracy was in the UK 300 years ago. India has a long way to go, especially in terms of evolving accountability mechanisms & fine-tuning centre-state relations, especially the financial components.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

Only now is the IN asking for this:

Bhaswar said...

Prasun Da,

You have provided great details regarding the kind of re-organisation, re-structuring and infrastructure we require along the Indo-Chinese border. But can you also provide comprehensive insight wrt infrastructure that is coming up at the moment in the same region for military purposes or those which can be used for the same even if they are not being built specifically for the armed forces. As in:-

1) What/which projects are actively under construction? What is the progress so far?

2) Which projects are stalled, why are they stalled, how can the issues be resolved, are they being resolved?

3) What projects have been planned and signed off on, not as some prospective plan but as a proper step in the future?

Govind said...

sir can you please post a comparision between arjun mk2 and T90...2)why army is not placing big orders for arjun mk2...3)few months back in an interview IAF CHIEF said that TEJAS is AT THE BEST only mig 21++, why not induct a mig21++ aircraft rather than mig 21 and then continue the RnD on that plateform like us did on there f15&16 series.4)Any progress on F-INSAS PROJECT.5)WHICH ANTI TANK MISSILE INDIA CURRENTLY OPERATES.6)WHAT is your personal view on NAG atgm.. Thanks in advance....

Bhaswar said...

Lastly sir, what are the characteristics for the PDV? 300Km is a beastly range, is it going to be larger than the PAD interceptor or have technological advances allowed us to either keep the same weight or even reduce it? Is it going to have an active (AESA) seeker, IR seeker?

I believe its meant to replace the PAD in the first layer of the BMD and operate along with the AAD interceptor?

Why aren't we focusing on theater BM defense instead, that would be far more useful along the Indo-China border, no?

Could systems like the PDV and AAD find a place in our naval platforms a decade or so down the line for providing further protection to CBGs?

Sir you had projected that some sort of advance might be made in the border issue with China this year, some settlement? What might that be and when might it happen?

Pierre Zorin said...

The Indian economy will go forward only when the following are done:1) take an inventory of skills shortages and set up educational reforms to address these - for instance set up poly technical institutes much like TAFE colleges in Australia to provide non University but skilled hands on courses 2) let go of Soviet style economy especially the hotch potch between that and laissez faire economy and free up the market economy;3) open up foreign investments by slackening red tapes and pig headed conservatism which are party based not ideological anyway 4)provide stimulus to areas badly hit and help build building confidence 5) provide opportunities for private small business entrepreneurships - there are more ways but these will be the basic ones to start with

Pankaj said...

Dear Sir you have written this earlier today

" In contrast, the IA can presently muster only the 84mm Carl Gustav RCL, shorter-range Vektor 40mm AGL & C-90 bunker-bursting LAW."

Sir My question is can we not use
106 mm RCL Jeep Mounted Guns
As the Chinese 120mm RCL will also be jeep mounted

And Recently we have also seen the L70 Anti Aircraft gun being used by Indian Army on the LOC against the Pakis

Similarly the 105mm Indian artilerry was also used in Direct Fire Role in Kargil

Please give your views

Bhaswar said...

Also sir, do our S-band TRMs match the performance of their western counterparts, if not then how far behind are we.

While assembling and/or accruing limited ToT on radars will not teach us how to fabricate x-band TRMs and many other things will it empower us wrt cooling systems for the radars- or is that far too critical a tech to be passed on?

Having created s-band TRMs shouldn't we be capable of now designing long range ground based radars?

Anonymous said...

I hope we the ppl of India draw the necessary conclusions from the chinki exercises

Iceman said...

1.s band T/R modules developed for aew&cs program,x band T/R modules being developed for AMCA,so the L band T/R modules is developed for replacing the russian L band radar on PAK fa?can u please shed some light on it?
2.does scorpene and s 80 submarine have same hull configuration,design except for s80 has a more powerful diesel engine?
3.can drdo CLGM be used in t-90 tanks?
4.does indian army plan to have advanced BMP based variants in the future?
5.will indian army go for VL-MICA or Spyder missile as mbda and bdl proposed VL-mica for the QRSAM tender and on the other hand IAF operates the SPyder SAM?
6.what is the status of Indian army's V-shorads tender?it is supposed to be competed by end-2012?
7.will there be any defence deals be signed by govt as PM heads to USA next month?
8.does hal plans to test fly-by-wire system on upcoming LCH prototype? HAL completed the development of laghu shakti engine which some reports say that it will power the armed rustom variant?
10.Will india get source codes for the fgfa from russia?

Iceman said...

11.does indian army started the trials for 100 self propelled tracked howitzers for which L&T and Rosbornexport is vying? there any plans to develop IRNSS guided artillery shells for the INdian Army?
13.does UK plans to sell one of its queen elizabeth class aircraft carriers?if so will the indian navy buy this because it has already operated two british aircraft carriers?

3rd ~ EyE said...

Hi Prasun.

In view with the recent Chinese Myanmar incursions & Pak Cease fire violation ... do u think that the frequency and timing of the incidents from multiple borders is just another tactic by China to instigate India ? while we discuss 2 front war ... are the planning to strangle us with a quick massive all front war engaging all its satellite states pak myanmar srilanka Bangladesh and a chinese naval blockade / amphibious attack on southern states (im assuming all the above as satellite states)... what are the odds that such a move might happen ?

NEEL said...

Is this news true?

"Russian Rosobornexport and Indian L&T are in a straight contest to supply the 100 self-propelled tracked howitzers to the Army and the trials of the two guns are slated to begin in June-July time-frame this year.After the trial phase gets over by early next year following the winter evaluation of the guns, the Army will find out the lowest bidder and include the chosen guns in five regiments of its artillery units."

Vikram Guha said...

Many Thanks PrasunDa.

Yes, I had also read about Dr. Anita Sengupta's visit to India .Heartening to know about the cutting edge projects she is involved in .

There was a time when students would graduate from Oxford & Cambridge and come back to join Presidency college as professors. But due to our moronic experiment with Communism everything is now lost. Dr.Sengupta's dad made the right choice to leave Bengal for the US.(A silver lining though is 3500 young people gathered at Science City , Kolkata to hear her speak.)


Subir said...

Sir, A lot of thanx for the answers.

1.These are all Uncle Sam's contributions.I knew about some of them.The Green rev was introduced in India by Norman Borlaug and was continued by M.S Swaminathan.Why did Uncle Sam offered us the undsafeguarded Tarapur PHWR ? When now it wants India to be a signatory to NPT.Why this reversal in policy? Why didnt USSR then and Russia now offer similar graduate and PG courses to senior armed forces chief ?And why dont IAF have major exercises with RuAF like we have the Garuda series of exercises with France.

2.I didnt know that the sons/daughters of majority of DAE/DRDO scientists and technocrats headout to USA for higher studies.I was under the impression they do it here in IITs.

3.The L-70 Bofors that was shown in the Ndtv vid it didnt look like that it had provisions for automatic laying. It didnt also had the thermal imager and the sights which the L70 got after the 2007 upgrades.

4.Did IA put aside some L70s which werent upgraded and are being used in direct fire anti structure and infantry role.

5.Is the ZU-23-2 manually or electrically laid throu joysticks when it is being used as AAA. The some pics of it which i have seen of ZU-23-2, in them there were 2 operators and they were manually laying as well as firing the gun.

Is the 106 mm RCL still in service?I assumed it was phased out after 1971 Indo Pak war.

6.Doesnt the Tejas mk1 having el/m-2032 mmr. It has detailed air to ground modes-sar,istar,gmti/t along with terrain avoidance-everything required for providing targetting data to Spice and other standoff air to ground munitions.With all these modes Tejas can surely carry and provide targetting data to those agm and glide weapons. Whats happening here actually ?

7.Maybe that island where the NASD is situated is nt in Google Earthor in other maps. And does IAF also store ordance both aam and agm in such underground super hardened structures ?

8.Why hasnt the Tejas fired any bvraam till now? Whats the pount of carrying out so many weapon trilas without even firing the Derby. Jaguar IS is there for dropping dumb bombs.No one needs the Tejas for that.

9.In the event of any hostility how will the conventionally armed PLA 2nd corps DF-21 and other MRBM and IRBM be used against us ??
Can they be targetted and neutralised with Nirbhay ALCM ,Kh-59 series?

10.How can the vast concentrations of IFV.APC,mortar carriers,tank destroyers,sph destroyed in detail or to some degree where Pla wont enjoy any numerical superiority against us.

Can the CBU-105 SFW be used against tanks,apc,ifv when thier engines arent running and they are cool ?The munitions need an ir source to lock on.

Anurag said...

Sir,I beg to differ from you on that AGL part.Both the QBL-o6 and Vektor Y3 has same range of around 2200 meter and the more numerous AGS-30 actually outranges the QBL-06 by atleast 200 meters.And the grenades are more or less useless against the reinforced concrete pillboxes and stone sanghars standard on Indian side,[saw a plenty of them in Sikkim]unless they can fire them through the gun ports which is next to impossible at longer ranges than 400-500 yards.
Besides,what about the retaliatory fire the advancing PLAGF troops will face from numerous Mag 58s,NSVs,ZSUs and L70s??
Besides,one can not compare the PF 98 with RCL MkIII.The former is a Company level weapon where as the later is a squad level weapon.And the PF 98 crews will face the same kind of difficulties that the IA ATGM operators faced against Pakis during Kargil-don't you agree??
And talking about tanks-the Type 99A1 is in no way a medium tank with about 56 ton combat weight and it's equipped with a L50 125 mm main gun and not a 120 mm one.Actually the Type 96G is a medium tank with 42-43 ton weight.Against them I don't think India shoul deploy light tanks.Instead large no of ATGM teams should be deployed on hill tops adjacent to the approaches with shoulder fired ATGMs like Konkurs M,Milan 2Ts,Kornet Es and RCL rifles.Because from hill tops,they can easily target trhe vulnerable turret tops of the approaching MBTs and this practise can be much more effective,cheaper and safeer than employing some light tanks against those MBTs.

Actually the more scary part to me is the lack of transportation infra and command and control problems of IA than lack of equipments!!

And the lastly,the advantage of Reverse Slop Defense has to be exploited to the maximum potential possible if we want any chance to thwart any future PLA aggression.

Anurag said...

And sir,don't you think IA should now start to upgrade its 105 mm IFGs??
To many they are obsolete and should be replaced ASAP with the M 777s but there is a prolem with the big guns which Americans faced in AStan.The bigger guns need more place to set up which may not be available every where in a mountainous terrain.
Then there is problem of transportability-the LFGs can be mule packed and also carried by Dhruvs which is not possible with the M777.
The USMC and US Army still uses 105 mm guns and recently upgraded them with APUs,Digitals FCS,rocket assisted rounds etc.They have a normal range of 14-15 km with ordinary shells and 20-22 km with RA ones.On the other hand the ARDE system has a maximum range of 19 km witj ordinary shells!!And IA has them in fairly large numbers too.They have served us well and reliably for all these years.So don't you think that instead of just replacing them,we should upgrade them.For example-changing the present L37 barrels with L45 or L52 cal barrels,add on modular APUs,digital FCS,Ballistic computers etc but most importantly a full bore base bleed round??

Just my thought.Would love to hear your opinions.

THANX in advance...................

Anonymous said...

This Subir redefines the word Stupid with every post .

reddy said...

we are in the last week of August now..

DefenseandAerospace said...

Prasun ,

You said that for the Air Defense GUn RFI OEM's from Russia, Poland, Serbia, Greece, Italy, Switzerland & France will express an interest .

Of these which Air Gun System do you think is ideal for India now that Rheinmetal is a cop out ?


reddy said...

Dear Prasun,
Is there any attempt to change the Command and Control Structure of The IA for streamlining purposes? Atleast, has the IA identified the problem? Has IA or Indian Forces does full analysis from time to time about the short comings or just kept going on blindly?

In addition to the exercises which were highly done in a controlled and simulated conditions, does Indian Forces do real mock-ups and see how forces respond?

(A popular saying: To identify/bring a solution, we must identify the issue first)

India/ Indian Govt must learn from the disintegration of mighty USSR, despite it's technological prowess. No technical Prowess can stop USSR disintegration. The reasons were social, political and economical.

Anil said...

The following pics show LCA Jejas has mid air refueller probe.

Tejas MK1 (Pic-1):

Tejas MK1 (Pic-2):

So does Tejas mk1 has refuelling probe ?

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To BHASWAR: That list of pending & planned border transportation development projects is long & requires an all-new thread altogether. PDV will be reqd to intercept ballistic missiles at an altitude of 200km. Its terminal seeker will be of the dual-mode type: active X-band radar (not AESA) coupled to an IIR sensor. There’s no threat to any CBG from any kind of ballistic missile. Regarding the China-India border settlement, some significant announcement is likely to be made when the Indian PM goes to Beijing this November to meet China’s President. No one has passed any ToT for either designing or fabricating T/R modules or for designing radar coolant systems. They all have to be done in-house/in-country. The S-band Ashwin ESA-based volume-search radar is now being developed by DRDO & Data Patterns for the SR-SAM project.

To GOVIND: There’s no comparison between the T-90S & Arjun, since the former is a medium battle tank while the latter is a main battle tank with superior firepower, mobility & survivability characteristics. More orders will be placed for both the Arjun Mk1A & Arjun Mk2 in the years ahead as the T-90S will be increasingly redeployed in Jammu, Ladakh & Sikkim. The IAF in the previous decade committed some significant blunders, such as not ordering the tandem-seat version of Tejas Mk1 in large numbers to serve as lead-in fighter-trainers, & not proceeding with the re-engining of the MiG-27Ms with AL-31F turbofans. Re-engined MiG-27UPG would have been formidable tactical strike aircraft capable of launching both two Taurus KEPD-350 ALCMs as well as two Nirbhay ALCMs. F-INSAS project is still under R & D mode. The Nag ATGM is a fine weapon. The problem has always been ther NAMICA launcher.

To PIERRE ZORIN: Interestingly, all that you’ve listed, plus all the reforms enacted in 1991, were all originally meant for implementation between 1947 & 1967. Unfortunately, the disastrous decision to not enact such reforms was taken in 1956 at the Avadi session of the Indian national Congress. Thus, 35 years were just wasted for no justifiable reason. Despite this realisation, the country’s political elite still continue to be in a state of denial & instead continue to mislead people with false dreams, like what’s now happening in Ayodhya, UP. If only such needless agitations were curbed in 1992 itself, then just imagine how many tens of thousands of crores in expenses may have been saved (& instead invested gainfully in the educational, infrastructure & health sectors) in terms of internal security expenses incurred as a result of such pointless agitations. What is far more worse is to see the spectacle of some religious figures like the Shankaracharyas being in the forefront of such agitations, since—ehtically speaking--such Shankaracharyas are expected to provide intellectual & spiritual illumination/enlightenment, instead of misguiding the already gullible public with misinterpretations.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To PANKAJ: 105mm RCLs are mounted on 4 x 4 Jeeps that cannot be driven to high-altitude battlefields since there are no motorable roads leading to the forward posts, only dirt-tracks exist for the foot-soldiers. The PF-98A RCLs are infantry-carried.

To ICEMAN: 1) X-band T/R module is not for AMCA, but for the multi-mode AESA radar meant for Tejas Mk2 & LCA (Navy) Mk2 MRCAs. L-band T/R module is for Super Su-30MKI upgrade project. 2) Yes. 3) No. 4) Yes. 5) Ideally, the IA & IAF want indigenous solutions like the SR-SAM. 6) Evaluations have been postponed. 7) No way. 8) Nope. 9) No. 10) Yes. 11) No. 12) Yes. 13) IN isn’t interested in the UK’s offer.

To 3RD EYE: No, there’s no linkage. Everyone’s speculating about such conspiracy theories, but no one as yet has been able to explain why exactly has Pakistan since 2010 been escalating the number of cross-LoC infiltration attempts. No one has asked the most basic question so far: why? What can Pakistan possibly gain from ratcheting up tensions along the LoC?

To NEEL: Most untrue. The IA has so far not even issued any RFP for tracked SP howitzers. In fact, IA HQ has yet to decide whether to go for tracked SP howitzers or go for Mounted Gun Systems.

To VIKRAM GUHA: By the way, there’s more evidence of ‘moronic’ inactivity in WB in this week’s THE WEEK magazine on pages 22, 23 & 24.

To SUBIR: 1) Tarapur’s GE-built reactor is a LWR, not PHWR. The CANDU 40mW Cirus at BARC in Trombay is PHWR, as is the Dhruva there. The US wanted India as far back as the mid-1970s to become a declared nuclear weapons state so that by 1979 India could be ushered in to the NPT as a nuclear weapons state just like the then USSR, India, China, UK & France. It was India that screwed up by not weaponising after May 1974. During the Cold war, all such academic institutions of the then USSR were open only to Warsaw Pact member-states, not to India or even Vietnam. Now, the language problem is the reason why no one from India’s armed forces goes there & that’s also why no bilateral exercises are conducted between the two countries’ air forces. 3) Why should anyone require thermal imagers or auto gun-laying to look at a static target that’s only a few tens of metres away?

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To ANURAG: Max ranges of hand-held AGLs are much more when used at higher altitudes. In-service Vektor-built AGLs are too few in number at the moment & most of them are deployed on the western front. AGS-17/30 isn’t really operable by a single infantryman & requires a two-man crew & its PLA equivalent isn’t the QBL-06. No AGL is ever used in isolation & never against reinforced bunkers. Instead, it is used concurrently with MMGs/HMGs or anti-materiel rifles. Stone sangars are usually overcome through such combinations. Reinforced bunkers will be targetted by both PF-98As & PF-89 80mm LAWs, apart from heavy tube-artillery fire-assaults. The TOE for the PLA’s Highland Mechanised Infantry formations in both Chengdu MR & Lanzhou MR do have PF-98As & PF-89s as squad-level assets. Up to 12,000 feet altitude, such direct-fire RCLs & LAWs along with flamethrowers will be effective, not beyond that & that’s where the PLA will have to resort to ATGMs as well. And according to NORINCO, the ZTZ-99A1 weighs 42.8 tonnes & has been developed to replace the 41.5-tonne Type 85IIA MBT. The ZTZ-96G is a 49-tonne MBT. Such MBTs won’t be employed at high altitudes, but more on the plains facing southeastern Ladakh & Sikkim. The best defence against them will be the Rudra helicopter gunships & the LAH version of the LCH (if developed). As for the 105mm LFGs, they’re now being transferred to the BSF & are unlikely to be retained in IA service for long, since the IA wants to standardise to 155mm tube-launch field artillery. In my personal view, the LFG’s towed & motorised versions ought to be exported in large numbers to Afghanistan.

To DEFENCE & AEROSPACE: The Polish & Serbian offers are quite competitive. 30mm, 40mm or even 35mm systems will be great, but not anything below that.

To REDDY: Nothing of that sort is happening today, primarily due to ineffective & ignorant leadership of the executive branch of the Govt of India, i.e. the MoD & the Cabinet Committee on National Security. In fact, all over the world, such transformative changes have taken place after due legislation has been enacted by governments. In India’s case, since both the legislative & executive organs are totally ignorant about the urgent need for such administrative/structural reforms, they are unable to prevail upon the three armed services to get their acts together. Consequently, all that the MoD & its RM can say from time to time is that they want the armed services to internally sort out such problems, which of course will never happen due to the turf wars. And that’s why the IA has been unable to lay its hands on attack helicopters despite being promised by the MoD as far back as 1986 that this will eventually happen. We’re still waiting till this day for this to happen.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To ANIL: Those are wooden mock-ups of the Tejas Mk1 & are not truly representative of the MRCA's final design. If you want to see the aircraft's definitive design, then you will have to see the airframes of the LSPs & SPs.

Bhaswar said...

Sir I still don't understand something. Even if the R&D phase of the FGFA which we are participating in is meant to teach HAL how to develop and engineering a fighter what is the R&D for wrt the FGFA itself and its sub-systems? As in why is there a need to engage in R&D for a plane that already exists? Since the only difference between the FGFA and the PAK-FA is in terms of subsystems and avionics then what are we developing for it? There will be no structural differences between the PAK-FA and the FGFA, or will there be? The radar is pretty much already developed and so are the other components short of the final engine so what is the R&D actually required for as far as the fighter itself is concerned. Surely MKI-ing a platform does not require all this?

joydeep ghosh said...

@Prasun da

a few things

in reply to #finanaceblogger you referred to S2 as SSBN (by mistake may be)

also what you said about MiG27 to @Govind is it still possible

had a conversation Bharat Karnad sir where he said the Scorpene ToT deal does not include sensors and that Indian AIP was tested somewhere in kazak.

whats your view

btw are flame throwers any use to us

do we have vehicles similar to the 4 wheelers seen

and what are the 2 rifles in the pics, havent seen anything like that


Joydeep Ghosh

DefenseandAerospace said...

Thank You Prasun .

1. Will the Poles field the LOARA for this Air Defense Gun RFI ?

2. Will the Ruskies field the Pantsyr S1 ?

3. The UAE a couple of years ago went for the Pantysr S1 as it was found to be better than other Air Defense Guns. Therefore, should India go for a tailor made version of the Pantsyr S1 as it is cheaper than the LOARA & other such guns ?

4. Now that the Ruskies have unveiled the Armata MBT does it not make sense for India to convert at least a part of their T 90 deal with Russia into a deal for the Armata as it is far more advanced than the T 90 ?

Littlemaster said...

1.Will the construction activities continue in Chitradurga ecm range and will airforce and Drdo use it after Ministry of environment has asked MoD to clear out the area ?

2.What is the targetted Mirage 2000 overhaul and ttsl extension rate pa at HAL Bangalore?

3.As part of these upg upgrades what were the air to ground ordance and standoff pgms procured for the Mirage 2000 fleet.

4.HAL Ozhar's facilities,fllor area are being extended to almost 1.5-2 times its prsent state. Are these only for the sukhoi MRO and super sukhoi upgrade program ?

5.Although during times of heeightened tensions,PLA probable missile launch sites will be kept under close survellience.But even we know they are about to launch we are helpless unless they declare war on us.Otherwise if we pre emptivelt strike first at those launch pads first we will be the perpetuators.If they declare war and within minutes launch salvoes of Nlos-bsm,Tbm,Irbam and Mrbm so as to have the upper hand over us, then what ? Some sort of terminal anti ballistic missile defenses are a must for important military installations and war sustenence infrasturcture.

6.How much chances will Barak-2 have against the Nlos-bsm,tbm and mrbm ?Will Barak-2 be successful considering it is being proclaimed as a better abm interceptor than Pac-3MSE.

7.AD-1,2 and PDV are still some years away.To meet immediate operational requirements some potent abm systems like Pac-3 or s400 are needed as interim solns.

8.Akash mk1 is incapable of intercepting terrain hugging and subsonic cruise missiles ,raad,Babur and with just 25 km range.What is its value and what is the point in deploying them in Gwalior and Lohegaon what is achieved when all modern standoff pgm and missiles have ranges graeter than 50 km and 100 km respectively.

9.Nirbhay conventional Alcm wont be ready before 2018.Uptill then good quantities of ALCM- Storm Shadow,KEPD 350,Popeye turbo and Spice 250,1000,2000 ,IAI Msow or Raytheon Jsow are required to meet any contigencies in a healthy way.PLA 2nd arty is gradually building up its irbm and tbm stocks in TAR. We must also follow this by buiding our own offensive standoff arsenal stocks. There is no place for OFB dumb gravity bombs in the crucial opening phases of a battlen and in todsy's world unless u want to target terrorists. There is a good shoratge of these standoff weapons and it needs to be procured asap.

10.BUSK add on armour package consists of cage armours for the turrets and hull. Does it also include addon applique composte armour plates over the base armour of the hull and turret?
Is Busk upgarde taking place all across the fleet?

11.Will it be possible to defeat & destroy the ZTZ-99A1 and ZTZ-96G MBT with well dug and clamoflagued atgm troops with 3rd gen fire and forget 4 km ranged Javelin or Spike. Neither of these tanks look as toughly built as Arjun mk1a ,Challenger. It will be impossible to detect these troops lying in ambush if they adopt Barracuda camoflague netting.

12.RM stressed the need for early life extension refits of in service subs for higher operational availabilty. In the context of this will the 2nd round of slep contract for Kilo class ssk signed by this year ?

Littlemaster said...

13.A Kilo class is lying ripped open at HSL.Another Kilo class is being serviced by HSL.Is it having the same fate as its step brother. Another 2 Shishumar class is undergoing some periodic refits at Mazagaon docks. And another 2 SSK are undergoing condtinioal maintainence. What are statuses ?

14.How is it possible that PLA troops are coming within AP and cutting down forests for timber,sending them back across LAC and exploiting our other natural resources .AP metaphorically is part of India but literray they have control over it. How can such incidents ever be possible when IA is there ? ? Isnt it possible to erect anti infiltration grids in Ap,Ladakh,Sikkim and extensively mine the area with anti personnel,anti armour and then booby trapping them ? It will kepp a check to all such incidents.

15.How did Mynamar army jawans and officials entered into Indian area in Manipur when the BSF is around?Are the Bsf personnel only present in those borders and also along WB Bangladesh border so that they can fill up their pockets and go home rich .Its time to question their sops and the way they undertake patrol s.

Anonymous said...

why exactly has Pakistan since 2010 been escalating the number of cross-LoC infiltration attempts.
why? What can Pakistan possibly gain from ratcheting up tensions along the LoC ?

Vikram Guha said...

Totally true Prasunda .

34 years of anarchy and coherent confusion in Bengal cannot be wished away in 4 or 5 years .

It's the people who elected these dolts year after year who are responsible.

Trivia : Outlook magazine has a devoted Bengal bashing column for the last 15 years or so ;)


3rd ~ EyE said...

Dear Prasun,

As per your opinion what is the best solution to tackle China ...

1. i dont think india is in a state to have a massive military capability buildup to contain china
2. does having US along side us prevent china from adventurism ? as i see , all that we have gained by shifting loyalty to US is that China got more Russian support
3. Can India play a role to thwart Chinese help to Pakistan ?

Please share your views ... Looks like our Govt is absolutely clueless on what has to be done ... they are rather warming up their benches ...

Vikram Guha said...

BTW PrasunDa ,

Ruskies are showing TOR-M2 on TATA truck in MAKS 2013 .

Therefore, is India planning to buy TOR M2 .


Subir said...

Sir, VMT.

1.What i wanted to say was that IA must have set aside some L70 as direct fire anti personnel and anti srtucture weapons and didnt subject them to the upgrades the whole lot in 2007-08.Thats why they didnt had TI and automatic laying.

2.The Tejas mk1 have el/m-2032 mmr. It has detailed air to ground modes-sar,istar,gmti/t along with terrain avoidance-everything required for providing targetting data to Spice and other standoff air to ground munitions.With all these modes Tejas can surely carry and provide targetting data to those agm and glide weapons. Then why was it only dropping dumb bombs ?

3.Many problems have crept up with HAL MRO of RD33 and R-25-300 powerplants.Even after 4 mods it still leaks fuel. There have been many incidents of spring failure in the fuel pumps of Bison engines which have manyatimes led to accidents.
1.Why isnt there any proper QA/QC in place ?
2.What is HAL doing to alleviate these faulty repairs and MRO ? If such probs are not rectified across the fleet it can lead to more varshes and write offs.
3.When an ac is returened after major repairs doesnt IAF tets pilots and flight engineer check out the jet. How can these faulty repairs go unnoticed ?

4.Has IA or/and IAF really shown interest in Tor M2E?

5.If Hal messes up with airframe and powerplant of Mig-21,27 and 29 how can one be so sure that the HAL built Su30 are built to the exact standards and meets all QA/QC and these wont repeat again in the sukhoi upgrade program .

6.Are there any counter stealth VHF/UHF long wavelength radars in IAF service?
Are the P-15,16 and STZ-68U .

7.Will there be any imp defense contracts signed during MAKS 2013 ?
Is the IAF interested in other Russian goodies

8.When will Prthvi-3 and Prahaar get inducted into IA's artillery in large nos ?

ThinkTank said...

DRDO works on High Power Electromagnetic Weapon and Electronics Hardening Technologies:

Research Center Imarat (RCI), a premier laboratory of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), has begun working on the development of High Power Electromagnetic (HPEM) weapon technologies with a view to use these technologies to harden their systems for a similar environments. It includes High Power Microwave (HPM) and Ultra Wide Band (UWB).

At RCI, Directorate of Electromagnetic (DEM) is a major technology work center responsible for all the activities involving electromagnetic waves and its related applications.

These systems will be used as ‘simulators’ for HEPM environment and then related vulnerability studies will be carried out. The collected data will be used for hardening defence electronics. The work involves development of pulsed sources like Marx Generator, Tesla Transformer, Flux Compressed Generator (FCG), Antennae like impulse radiating antenna, Horn antenna, etc. It also involves development of various sensors and measurement diagnostics for characterisation of conducted as well as radiated Electromagnetic (EM) Fields. There are other DRDO labs partnering this developments.

HPEM weapons have matured up to the extent of knocking down low earth orbiting satellites. HPEM has many defence applications like ground penetrating radar, see through radar, food preservation and medical applications.

DRDO developments in HPEM will help EMI-EMC testing and hardening of various important electronic packages.

ThinkTank said...

DRDO works on National Mission for developing AFV engines:

Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), the India’s premier defence research agency, has launched National Mission development of Armoured Fighting vehicle (AFV) Military Engines for the power range 400 hp – 1500 hp. DRDO is particularly focusing on 1500 hp engine, utilising the experience and infrastructure avaliable within India. The 1500 hp engine will be configured and developed to meet the requirement of futuristic Main Battle Tanks. DRDO plans to develop this engine in five years time.

Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE), which is a R&D unit of DRDO, is spearheading the development of the diesel engine.

To achieve the compactness, higher engine speed with common rail (CR) system is being considered. The engine will be able to operate at higher coolant and engine oil temperature, and hence, will suit the operation at high ambient temperature prevailing in Indian conditions. Advanced materials are being considered for the meeting the challenges posed by the high temperatures at Thar deserts during peak summers.

CVRDE is planning to use pressurized air filteration system and self-cleaning air filteration systems for the AFV engines. The two concepts will lead to lesser volume.

CVRDE had earlier developed a 1500 hp air cooled engine that did not meet the required paramaters. It was a 12 cylinder, direct injection, V 120 degree, turbocharged, charge air-cooled, 30 liter air cooled engine. All components, including fuel injection system and toolings were indigenous and developed in-house at CVRDE. A power output of 520 hp was demonstrated in naturally aspirated version and 880 hp was demonstrated with medium pressure turbocharging. The cylinder head could not dissipate required heat. Since it involved extensive modifications, the development was not pursued.

CVRDE had re-configured air-filtration system and cooling system of the 1400 hp MTU powerpack used in Arjun Tank. In association with the OEM, CVRDE made extensive improvements on the MTU engine. It included air-filtration system, cooling system, fuel system, and ruggedization.

CVRDE has also upgraded the T-72 M1 engine (V46-6) from 780 hp to 1000 hp. The upgrade included advanced materials and modifying the peripheral systems. One of the prototype engine has completed 400 hours of endurance testing in the test bed. The prototypes have been integrated to T-72 tanks and extensive field trials are being conducted to check the life of the engine, reliability and cooling performance. The field evaluation is in the advanced stage.

Pratap Kumar said...

Sir how many Su-30MKIs do we have currently?

Thanks in advance.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To BHASWAR: As I had explained before quite a few times, what HAL is trying to do with the FGFA’s R & D project is exactly what ADA has been doing with the Tejas Mk1/Mk2 R & D programmes, i.e. learning how to re-invent the wheel. Had HAL & not ADA been nominated as the prime contractor-cum-airframe designer of the Tejas MRCA, then there would have been no need whatsoever to go for the FGFA & instead HAL by now would have been experienced enough to develop the AMCA. But sadly, this did not happen & therefore HAL is now trying to learn from Russia what ADA has already learnt since the 1990s. In the FGFA’s case, HAL isn’t involved in developing the airframe, its engine, its flight control systems or its airborne multi-mode AESA. HAL will only be involved in integrating the mission avionics & mission sensors & developing their internal wiring harness architecture along with some mission avionics like the integrated EW suite, OBOGS & engine ignition system.

To JOYDEEP GHOSH: The S-2, S-3 & S-4 submarines will be SSBNs carrying the K-15 & K-4 SLBMs UNTIL the arrival of the S-5, S-6 & S-7 SSBNs in the following decade & ONLY AFTER THIS will the S-2, S-3 & S-4 submarines become SSGNs by doing away with the SLBMs & instead accommodating the BrahMos-1 & Nirbhay SLCMs. Re-engining the MiG-27M is still very much possible & the DARIN-3 mission avionics suite can also be installed at the same time. Scorpene SSK deal’s ToT elements were all uploaded by me as a poster in the DEFEXPO 2012 thread last April. None of the mission sensors of the Scorpenes are being licence-built or licence-assembled & are all being imported off-the-shelf. The DRDO/NMRL’s AIP design is still under fabrication as a technology demonstrator at INS Shivaji in Lonavala & Larsen & Toubro is leading the civil engineering effort. Other R & D/industrial entities involved are THERMAX
IOCL, TEXOL, INDIAN INSTITUTE OF PETROLEUM, M/S AKSA, CEEFES, NPOL, CDAC, DIGITRONICS, NSTL, RCI, ROLTA & MDL. Nothing to do with any of the ‘stans’ & all testing & validation will be done in-country. Therefore, those claiming anything otherwise need to seek psychiatric help/advice. Flamethrowers are handy whenever one requires to squeeze out soldiers from bunkers, like what the US forces did during World War-2 against the Japanese in Okinawa & other Western pacific islands & later in Koreas between 1950-1953. The IA desperately requires 4 x 4 & 8 x 8 ATVs (like the ones built by Polaris) for negotiating the tough terrain in both Ladakh & the North East. Rifles shown are 12.7mm sniper/anti-materiel rifles.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To DEFENSE & AEROSPACE: The LOARA is being offered to both the IAF & IA. Ruskies will field the Pantsyr S2 on a wheeled chassis. But the reqmt is for just a high-fire cannon & not a combined gun/missile AAA system. The ARMATA MBT is still years away from entering production & will most likely enter service only by 2020. Personally, I would rather stick to the planned/projected Arjun Mk2 & Arjun Mk3 MBTs.

To LITTLEMASTER: 1) Of course. 2) 48 aircraft in 10 years. 3) No ordnance has been ordered to date except for the Mica BVRAAMs. 4) They’re for overhauling the existing Su-30MKIs & for the Super Su-30MKI project as well. 5) There’s always enough warning time available through overhead satellite recce & counter-strikes can always be launched. 6) Barak-2 is only useful against NLOS-BSMs. 7) There’s no immediate threat to India just as there’s no immediate threat to the PRC from Indian ballistic missiles. 8) The role of any MR-SAM is not to shoot down hostile combat aircraft, but to force them to either abort their airstrikes, or force them to adopt terrain-hugging flight-profiles where they will become vulnerable to interceptions by E-SHORADS & VSHORADS. 10) Yes to both. 11) If not destroy, then certainly disable their mobility by splitting their tank-tracks. Top-attack ATGMs can certainly defeat such MBTs. No camouflage-netting can successfully mask any armoured vehicle from SAR-based recce systems. 12) Not this year, but next year. 14) IA does have minefields laid 20km inside along the LAC in AP. Both sidesd are allowed to conduct patrols up to a distance of 20km beyond each country’s perception of the LAC, especially over uninhabited terrain.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Anon@7.52PM: The Pakistan Army wants India to resume negotiations on Musharraf’s 4-point formula that were disowned by the previous PPP-led Govt of Pakistan & which the PML-N led govt also is reluctant to resume. By carefully calibrating the ratcheting up of tensions along a tiny stretch of the LoC, the Pakistan Army is trying to pressurise the Govt of Nawaz Sharif to resume the stalled talks on the 4-point formula, since the Pakistan Army desperately requires such an agreement in place so that it can redeploy additional forces now deployed against India to its western front for use against the TTP elements holed up in North Waziristan. Since this redeployment will numerically make India’s deployed forces along the international border & LoC far superior to the Pakistan Army, the Pakistan Army consequently wants the ‘irreversibility of the peace process’ to be restored (like it was between January 6, 2004 & 2007) & if this is done by the govts of both countries, then all these cross-firings & beheadings across both sides of the LoC will automatically stop. This is the game that’s now being played & the Pakistan Army’s on-going machinations are therefore not so much directed against India (in terms of initiating a full-blown infiltration of Jihadis into J & K) as against the PML-N govt of Mian Mohd Nawaz Sharif. The Pakistan Army feels the need to do this because the Govt of Pakistan continues to insist on having a negotiated settlement with the TTP (which is quite impossible) for populist reasons, while the Pakistan Army firmly believes that only a sustained counter-insurgency campaign of the type it launched in 2004 & 2007 in Swat & South Waziristan will enable Pakistan to establish its writ of the law in North Waziristan. But sadly, in both India & Pakistan, the respective ‘desi’ press corps has failed to grasp such realities & have instead resorted to needless & clueless warmongering.

To VIKRAM GUHA: You’re spot on, since people can only get the leaders they deserve, as the popular & time-tested adage goes. But here’s some good news:

TOR-M2E is being offered for both the SL-QRM & QR-SAM reqmts of the IA & IAF. Mounting the weapon system on a TATA-built truck is part of Russia’s direct industrial offsets commitment IN CASE the TOR-M2E is selected. RAFAEL has done the same with its SpyDer-SR as well. But both competitions are still underway & no final decision has been undertaken.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To 3rd EYE: If I may, I would like to postpone sharing my views till later today, since there is a scheduled seminar on this very topic later today. The seminar was originally due to discuss two opposite points of view that appeared at:


However, the seminar’s main thrust underwent a makeover & is now titled: INDIA’S NATIONAL STRATEGIC OPTIONS FOR CHINA. Here’s what the synopsis states: Mid July 2013 the Union Cabinet took a decision to raise a “Strike Corps” for the North. The initial raising cost will be around Rs 64,000 crores, though apparently little or no money is being allotted this financial year. This follows the raising of another “holding Corps” for the Northeast that was completed about two years ago. These decisions raise issues of grave strategic import on the fundamental directions of India’s strategic policy. This is in the backdrop of serious financial challenges harking back to 1990-91 affecting the nation’s balance of payments and current account deficits. Some of the questions that should be debated are?
- The effectiveness of this raising in the context of evolution in modern warfare and threat perceptions.
- Do we have a strategy for dealing with China in the short or long term, including on the Border? What should it be?
- Are there better alternatives to spend our valuable resources to safeguard national security interests?
- What response will this likely attract from China and how do we counter that?
- What should be our strategic policies on China?
The Forum for Strategic Initiatives plans to host a discussion on this topic on 27 Aug from 1430-1700 hrs at the Institute’s premises at E-5 Panchsheel Park. The programme will be as follows:
1400-1430 hrs - tea/coffee
1430-1435 hrs – Chairman’s comments
1435-1450 hrs – Brig Gurmeet Kanwal – “The rationale and backdrop of the raisings”
1450-1600 hrs – Rear Adm Raja Menon – “An alternative approach”
1600-1610 hrs – Srikanth Kondapally – “Likely response from China”
1610-1620 hrs – Spkr later - Do we have alternate strategic options on China?
1610-1730 hrs - Discussion

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To SUBIR: 2) Not all Tejas Mk1 PVs & LSPs have on-board MMR. Only LSP-7 & LSP-8 have them. The ones dropping gravity bombs don’t have EL/M-2032 MMR. 3) I was the first one to have highlighted the issue with faulty fuel-pumps since 1991 & till to date nothing has changed & will not change unless & until such engines requiring so many fuel-pumps are replaced by turbofans equipped with FADEC. 4) I(A/IAF always show interest in all types of new-generation weapon systems. Doesn’t mean anything at all. 5) Turbofans powering Su-30MKI, MiG-29UPG, MiG-29K, Mirage 2000, Tejas Mk1 & in future the re-engined Jaguar IS/DARIN-3 all have FADEC & will never face such problems. The MiG-27Ms too therefore require re-engining with AL-31Fs. 6) No. 7) No. No money for such contracts. 8) No idea.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

A post-mortem of the Indian Air Force’s (IAF) MiG series of fighter jets has come up with shocking revelations pointing to perennial engine oil leaks besides other serious technical glitches that have lent the aircraft notorious distinction of ‘flying coffin’ or ‘widow-maker’ owing to frequent crashes and loss of human lives. Every MiG crash in the country invited emotional outbursts from public and stinging rebuke from defence analysts, but the incidents were invariably written off claiming them to be human error. Documents accessed by The Sunday Standard reveal that MiG engines that propelled these roaring fighter jets, once considered backbone of the IAF, are of poor quality.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

Nearly 40 per cent of these engines and accessories produced by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), Koraput, have been returned by the IAF for some or the other defects. HAL is a Navratna company, owned by the government. The problem ranges from oil leak, metallic particle in oil filters and hot air leak from rear casing to trouble in compressor and even in turbine of MiG-27 aero engines. The defects are scary for the government, which has lost almost half of its MiG fleet to the crashes in the last 40 years, leaving 171 pilots and 39 civilians dead. Although Defence Minister A K Antony had told Parliament last year that both human error and technical defects were responsible for MiG crashes, he conveniently forgot to inform people about horrific condition of government’s state-of-the-art manufacturing unit. “Most of the cause factors can be classified as defects during manufacturing or overhauling process. IAF has been flagging these issues but government’s response is slow,” said an official on the condition of anonymity. It is learnt that all three MiGs—MiG-27, MiG-29 and MiG-21—are facing serious quality issues. MiG-27 suffered Low Pressure Turbine Rotor (LPTR) failure in at least 11 recent incidents. The HAL in some cases even lied while overhauling the LPTR, saying it had followed the overhaul manual but Ministry of Defence (MoD) officials said the procedure recommended by the original equipment manufacturer was not being implemented by the celebrated company. There are more shocking facts conveniently swept under the carpet. The springs installed in fuel pump of MiG 21 engines are failing frequently. A MiG-21 Bison aircraft crashed in November 2012 in Gujarat which was attributed to spring failure. The documents suggest that of the five main fuel pumps fitted with HAL-manufactured springs, at least three springs failed, which is unforgivable as it would have certainly resulted in accidents. Shockingly, the main fuel pumps of MiG-21 Bison engine continue to leak fuel, despite four studies conducted and implemented since 1990s. It says despite incorporating changes, fuel leak from main fuel pump continued unabated from throttle end. A senior official said flying operations of MiG-29 fleet are often suspended due to non-availability of critical accessories and poor quality of repairing. Even if one aircraft of the fleet is affected by the snag, the entire fleet is grounded till the problem is identified and resolved. However, another reason behind the poor quality of production and engine repairs is attributed to mass production work in the last leg of production year, to achieve the target. For example, in the first six months of 2012-13 production year, HAL finished the work on only four MiG-29 engines, but in the last quarter of the year, four engines were completed within three months. Similarly for MiG-27, the HAL finished the work on nine engines in nine months, but interestingly another nine engines were completed within the last three months. The issue was flagged by the MoD saying such trend is adversely affecting the quality of aero engines. “HAL is not interested to provide quality engines or repair work to the IAF. They are only interested in meeting the production numbers every year. There is also an impression that the work force in HAL delays the production to last three months to earn few extra bucks for ‘over time’ which is disgusting, given the fact that human lives are at stake,” an official said.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

I was the first one to have highlighted the issue with faulty fuel-pumps of the engines powering the MiG-21, MiG-23, MiG-27M & MiG-29 in 1991 (after I was told about this persisting problem by Air Marshal M S D Woolen, former Chairman of HAL at the Paris Air Show in Le Bourget) & till to date nothing has changed & will not change unless & until such engines requiring so many fuel-pumps are replaced by turbofans equipped with FADEC. Turbofans powering Su-30MKI, MiG-29UPG, MiG-29K, Mirage 2000, Tejas Mk1 & in future the re-engined Jaguar IS/DARIN-3 all have FADEC & will never face such problems. The MiG-27Ms too therefore require re-engining with AL-31Fs. Earlier, there was another problem plagueing the engine ignition systems of the engines for the MiG-21. But this problem was resolved in the mid-1990s when the Lutton facility of Lucas Aerospace of the UK transferred the know-how to HAL for producing new-generation engine ignition systems, which were validated & certified by IAF HQ after a mere 80 hours of flight-tests.

Bhaswar said...

So we are going to spend 8-10 billion dollars just to have DRDO learn some rudimentary things while all the high end know-how and know-why regarding the engines and sensors remains out of reach? Is that even remotely justified? As it is the PAK-FA is nothing revolutionary in terms of VLO/LO design at least and there seems to be no hope or scope of any modifications to the rear fuselage at least if not the engine outlets? Even the J-20, despite its issues with the engines and sensors, has been designed with tighter specifications wrt LO/VLO design than the PAK-FA. Or am I missing something here?

What exactly is the "Divya Drishti" program, another demonstration or science project? IF not then what's the progress on this front?

So much was harped upon by the DRDO about Akash Mk.2 and yet it is nowhere on the horizon and will probably end up being another command guided missile? Apparently some tests, dunno if Mk1 or Mk2, were conducted last month or perhaps the month before that and the system failed.

Sir, while the inherent design on the Mig-21 engines and components might cover somewhat for HAL's poor performance what of there inability to adhere to quality standards wrt more contemporary engines on the MKI? Aren't there quality issues and rate of production issues there too? How can we expect HAL to produce sufficient numbers of the much delayed Rafale within an acceptable period of time while maintaining the quality standards? Doesn't such an expectation from them seem far fetched?

Nothing has come up on the Namica either? Shall we debug the carrier vehicle only when the Nag becomes obsolete? There is no news of the initiative of bringing in Tata and other private companies to design IFVs, troop carriers- another dead end? No clarification as to whether the marine sensors like the USHUS/Panchendriya sonar system have finally been debugged or not? Nagin towed sonar is a dead end I believe? With the economy tanking there will be no hope for all the much harped about additional Phalcon AWACS, no?

No relaunch of the Nirbhay LACM, are they re-designing it or something?

All in all a pathetic performance so far on these fronts, wouldn't you say? With the Arihant and the partially constructed Vikrant being the only sources of some minuscule quantum of solace.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To BHASWAR: DRDO & HAL as well. The cost figures are not purely for R & D work, but are also inclusive of the costs to be incurred for setting up production facilities in India for the FGFA. Divya Dhristi is the DRDO-developed passive surveillance system-cum-radar fingerprinting system, which was developed for the Strategic Forces Command as well as for the IACCCS. Akash Mk2 will be the 35km-range E-SHORADS for both the IA & IAF. It will be an enhanced-range version of the 25km-range Akash Mk1. HAL’s in-house QA/QC shortcomings are only one-half of the story. The other half is the non-availability of flight simulators for the IAF’s MiG family of combat aircraft. There are far more shortcomings which have not been highlighted by the ‘desi’ press corps. For instance:
1) Why has approval not yet been accorded for Phase-2 of INS Kadamba in Karwar? Right now, even berthing the INS Vikramaditya in Mumbai will be problematic, since one Type 877EKM SSK with explosive warheads is marooned underwater & the old INS Vikrant still occupies valuable berthing space at Ballard Pier.
2) Why has the MoD told the IAF to ground the three AW-101s & has prevented the IAF from accepting the remaining nine AW-101s? Does the RM even know what a big deal it is in financial terms to restore these grounded helicopters back to airworthy status?
3) Why does the MoD continue to insist on only direct industrial offsets & wants nothing to do with indirect industrial offsets?

Anonymous said...

Dear Prasun,

Does India accepts analysis reports done by private companies? or does MoD, IA, IAF, IN employ private consultancies before taking a decision? Anyway they do not have strategic human resources for such things it seems..
How can we expect our politicians to have strategic thinking?
Politics is the only field that do not require any qualifications.
Atleast I expect IA, IAF, IN maintain such analysis and reporting teams with them for financial, strategic, risk, safety, planning purposes.

India needs to standardise everything and strictly follows them such as city planning, roads and buildings, how people can interact with govt etc.. so many things to say here..

Some times I feel the better way is to copy British System to fast forward things rather than re inventing the wheel.. we are almost identical societies as far as I concerned.. Am an Indian and living in UK, so have good understanding of both societies..

reddy said...

As reported if Food Sec Bill is to serve 2/3 of population (.82 Billion People), it's NOT about food security, it directly implies that we have serious issues with respect to Food handling in India.

It's shameful to be proud about this bill, the reason? to serve 2/3 of population.

The right case of this bill could be to serve some 1/10 BUT CERTAINLY NOT 2/3.

For those not understanding my logic, this bill is analogous to having 10 Big Water Tankers to take away the leaked water from a small pump/pipe. What we need is a proper seal to the pipe rather than 10 Big Water Tanks.

Anil said...

UAVs capable of launching weapons soon: DRDO chief

Which armed uav are they talking about ?

Bhaswar said...

VMT for the answers Prasun Sir,

So what is the status of the Divya Drishti project? Has it been completely developed, is it undergoing trials, is it deployed?

Sir, I actually wanted to find out what the status of the Akash Mk2 project was?

Sir while there are many other systemic issues which plague the IAF and its fleet- originating all the way from the MOD as you have illustrated. But it still doesn't answer the question, can HAL/DRDO produce sufficient numbers of both Rafale and FGFA within a reasonable period and with good quality?

Has anything been done at all to increase the QC/QR and production rates? More importantly will anything be done in the near future in this regard? What is your diagnosis?

Sir who is "Ravi Rikhey", in his book "The war that never was" he gave an interesting narration of an incident where RG was intimidated by Zia. Is there any truth in that statement?

Pierre Zorin said...

In any other developed country shoddy workmanship and sluggish unethical work practices like you mentioned by HAL not only would have commenced a parliamentary hearing and disciplining but more importantly man slaughter or even murder charges would have been laid against the Head honchos. More Indian soldiers die at peace time than at war and this is the type of record that will thwart Indian aspirations to be recognised as a major world power. There is no lack of talent, opportunity and manpower. What has always lacked is vision, political will and genuine commitment to the welfare of the nation. Funnily enough, national pride aside, if China were to rule the country they would have converted India into a super power by now! Political apathy, corruption and gutless leaders are doing more damage to the country than any terrorist or foreign power. Not just militarily now everyone can see the shocking results in sports, economy, education, agriculture. May be this is why the leaders love the dhoti- when they let go of a big one it blows away quickly from them but leaves the stink with the populace! BTW those guys that always go to the Do you not get infected with virus and various tracking cookies/trojans? Each time I did I got at least something so I stopped going there.

Anonymous said...

I used to visit idrw some time back. Yes, that site is affected by some trojans, but the worst is not just trojans but the site itself and those behind it. It is just a gossiping site with no real substantial news.
9 out of 10 news items are only speculative. so stopped visiting idrw.
Another site I found was and is the worst and notorious for india bashing and false flagging.
Those behind the site were real and certified morons.

Heberian said...

@ Pierre Zorin:

I second you.

Not China really, but the Chinese way as executed since 1977. We would have a country worth being pride about then.

Littlemaster said...

Thnk you for the answers.
1.Today no hostile strike acs will come within 35-40 km of its target. With standoff ordance like the H-3,H-4 and Raad PAF jets can target hvt from well over 50 km.Then whats the whole point here when acs wont be ever entering the engagement envelope of Akash mk1 and 2. And IA and IAF doesnt have enough radar directed AAA for deploying around major airbases and military installations.

2.An attacking aircraft can be made to abort its weapons deployment and force him to adopt a low level terrain higging.masking profile only when there is long range sams with ranges in excess of 120 km . And even if in IAF's case the hostile aircraft adopts a low level flight profile, Zu-23-2 and L-70 are simply incapable of intercepting ALCM Raad and standoff PGM.

3.QR-SAM is quick reaction sam.What is the SL-SAM requirements ?
How many regiments,squadrons of the Qrsam,slsam respectively will Army and Airforce order?Will any orders be at all placed ?

4.KBP Tula Panstyr S1 though a combined gun missile system can engage subsonic alcm and Jsow type pgm and HARM as its OEM claims. It has a good chance of winninga s its cheaper than most other radar guided AAA and its under production for UAE. PZ Loara exists in prototype stage.

5.Nirbhay conventional Alcm wont be ready before 2018.Uptill then good quantities of ALCM- Storm Shadow,KEPD 350,Popeye turbo and Spice 250,1000,2000 ,IAI Msow or Raytheon Jsow are required to meet any contigencies in a healthy way.PLA 2nd arty is gradually building up its irbm and tbm stocks in TAR. We must also follow this by building our own offensive standoff arsenal stocks though there are no threats .There is no place for OFB dumb gravity bombs in the crucial opening phases of a battlen and in todsy's world unless u want to target terrorists. There is a good shoratge of these standoff weapons and it needs to be procured asap.

6.What are the various counterstrike weapons available with IAF and IA ? ?Ia has some Brahmos blk 2 290 km Lacm and IAF has too little around 50-80 Popeyes Alcm for carrying out an effective counterstrike .

7.IN is going to lease another Akula class SSGN.If IN doesnt have any operational sovereignty and if the sub cant be used against an adversary or in war then what sue is it of ? INS Chakra 2 is there already for serving as a training platform. There must be something in it for IN. Many are saying that after loss of Sindhrakshak Mod has really stepped up efforts to lease another Akula.

8.How exactly can Arihant class serve as a SSBN with 750 km ranged K-15 and just 4 3500 km K-4 .Its better they serve as SSGN armed with Nirbhay and Brahmos from the very beginning.

9.Was there any latest disclosure about the definitive MIRES aesa,distributed radar setup,electro optical systems,Irst and some stealth features that are yet to be made public ?

10.Raytheon SM-2 blk 1A has ranges in excess of 500 km.Well its much smaller in volume than PDV.PDV will have a range exceeding 400 km if its based on Prthvi airframe. Is there any info on its kill vehicle .

11.Why will HAL Bangalore take 10 years to upgrade & refurbish just 48 Mirage 2000. Are they insane?If so HAL will take 20 years to deliver 108 Rafales.

12.Besides RISAT-2 and ELM-2060P are there any more SAR,ISAR gizmoes in IAF and RA&W's inventory iwith which a vigil eye can be kept on our neighbours ?

12.Elm 2060P doesnt offer metre resolution in ranges in excess of 200 km.There is nly Risat-1 available.Troop and Tel movements can take place when Risat is nt on station and with 2060p's limited range it is imposiible to look upwards of 300 km in any meaningful detail. Does IAF and ARC have any slons tyo these.

Pinkal Shah said...

VMT for your answer but my previous question still remains unanswered

1. i was studying through various decalssified UFO files by goverments like USA, UK , Canada France UN, etc & all such files leads to one conclusion that around 85-90% of SO-caled UFO sighting are hoaxes, bt 10-15% phenomena are still unexplained by any theoritical or practical science, also after this i came across various links pertaining to Aliens life forms such as Plaiedians, Acturians, Reptillians, etc & from such data it is clear that Aliens also are developing there intelligence level compare to universe & 'Acturians' are most Advanced & developed beings in this galaxy which feed on positive energy while reptilians feed on negative energy & 'Acturians' are saving earth from such reptillians aliens as such they have evil intentions & greys aliens are nothing but cloned beings developed by reptillians for their growth & energy

3.Also Plaiedians are most resembance to humans & they are aso displaced from their home planets Avion which destroyed by reptillians in war & they seek out for new planets such as Lyra, Pladies etc

Kindly give your view poinfts on this matter.

Eagerly Awaiting for your reply

Thanking you in advance.

Anonymous said...

These is a bulky rifle in the photos which seems to be using telescoped ammunition......something which the amricans are trying with there LSAT programme.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Anon@5.50AM: Do you mean ‘accept’ of ‘commission’? There’s more than enough strategic resources & institutions within the three armed services to engage on various issues related to strategic visioning. The National Defence University now coming up will be a further addition for not just the armed forces, but also the bureaucrats. But politicians do not have access to any such institutions & therefore no strategic culture is to be found among politicians in India.

To REDDY: The problem is not the bills or the finances reqd for implementing them. The problem is directly related to infrastructure. The Right to Education cannot be implemented unless there are enough educational/academic institutions & the skilled human resources reqd to man them. The Right to Life cannot be implemented unless there are enough health centres & the skilled human resources reqd to man them. Similarly, Food Security cannot be provided unless & until there are enough strategically located granary storage silos located throughout the country (suggested eons ago by Dr M S Swaminathan) so that the 80 million tonnes of foodgrains do not rot every year. By simply enacting legislation without concurrently providing the supporting infrastructure, the Govt of India is only putting the cart before the horse. In addition, there are today 2 prevailing chains of command: the Union Cabinet & the NAC, both of which do nor coordinate their respective functioning & pronouncements. Consequently, this is what happens: order + counter-order = disorder.

To ANIL: The news report’s headline says “UAVs capable of launching weapons soon” while the story says that “precision-guided munitions (PGMs) that can be launched from UAVs will be test-fired by the Defence Research and Development Organisation in a couple of months”. So, what are we to make of such a news-report? What comes first—the weapons-launching UAV or PGMs? Only the DRDIO or the news reporters of THE HINDU know best! (LoLZZZ)

To BHASWAR: Divya Dhrishti went operational slightly less than a decade ago. Akash Mk2’s test-firings will commence by the year’ end. Only after that will user-trials get underway sometime by early 2015. For as long as HAL remains a MoD-owned DPSU, it will never be able to produce sufficient numbers of both Rafale and FGFA within a reasonable period and with good quality. Ravi Rikhye is the Washington DC-based Editor of ORBAT.Com & is a regular visitor to this blog.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To HEBERIAN: Yesterday in New Delhi, there were 2 interesting seminars: In the first one, The Chief of Integrated Defence Staff to the Chairman Chiefs of Staff Committee, Lt Gen Anil Chait delivered the keynote address at a seminar on “Response to Floods in Uttarakhand; Lessons and Way Ahead”, in New Delhi on August 27, 2013. What came out of this was that there was no over-arching national protocol pertaining to the requisitioning of the armed forces’ support & aid to civilian agencies during disaster-relief operations. It is up to each armed service to respond as it deems fit & what happened in Uttarakhand was that both the Army & IAF responded in a totally uncoordinated manner, while the Navy wasn’t even called!!! Contrast this with the synchronised nature of responses from all three elements of the PLA in March 2008 & again earlier this year (as I had revealed in an earlier thread a few months ago). And contrary to the fetish of India’s civilian national leadership to undertake only ‘aerial surveys’, China’s PM himself was on Ground Zero both times & spent more than 6 hours each time to get a first-hand feel of the disasters.
At the 2nd seminar (INDIA’S NATIONAL STRATEGIC OPTIONS FOR CHINA), what emerged was that it is impossible for the Indian Navy to attain any kind of parity with the PLAN, while the Indian Army’s projected Mountain Strike Corps won’t be able to do anything at all unless the required border road/rail transportation infrastructure is put in place—something that has made only pathetic progress so far.
Meanwhile, GOD’s PERFECT ARSEHOLE has produced yet another masterpiece of disinformation at:

Ironically, the true picture emerged yesterday from a veteran & objective Pakistani diplomat called Rustam Shah Mohmand at:

To LITTLEMASTER: 3) QR-SAM & SL-QRM are one & the same. Each armed services is using two different project-names for the same system.

DefenseandAerospace said...

Prasun ,

Does the NH 90 have a better chance of winning the Indian Navy's Multi Role Helo Contract ? Even the Aussies are replacing their old Sea Hawk helos with the NH 90 even though the S 70B SeaHawk was offered to them and the US is an ally .

It must be said that the NH 90 does have a better cruise speed , range and endurance than the S 70B .

Thank You

Bhaswar said...

Sir, the Ashwin ESA you had mentioned as being under development- wrt is it in advanced phase of development or just in the conceptual stage atm? What will be its features, detection range and number of targets tracked?

Are our S-band TRMs comparable in performance to those produced in Western nations or are we lagging behind?

Shouldn't we be theoretically capable of manufacturing larger radars akin to the MF-STAR and Ground-master? Or are we yet to get a hang of other electronic components, cooling and software?

Since we are already purchasing the aforementioned MF-STAR, Groundmaster, Arudhra systems then what scope or place is left for indigenous S-band radars?

Shouldn't we look into the export potential of such systems? A S-band radar mounted on a TATA truck along with a SAM version of the Astra might find some buyers, no?

I still cannot understand why we aren't developing advanced PGMs rather than simplistic LGBs, PGMs with GPS, INS, IIR/Semi-active laser homing. Instead of crude add-on kits for 20-30 year old dumb bombs. Why not design a guidance package and a new built bomb for the package refined aerodynamically and with glide ability?

When we think of indigenous development- shouldn't projects like the above be looked into more aggressively rather than always trying to build the next fighter or the next tank? IF the IAF had its own family of PGMs like the French do with the AASM or the Israelis do with the Spice then wouldn't we have made a good headway?


another huge market would be for indigenous IFV/AFVs- since the IA is heavily deprived of mechanized infantry. Doesn't it make sense to actually allow the development of actually indigenous IFV/AFV? We have all the components short of engines and electronics perhaps. These same products could then be further modified into NLOS-Mortar or more heavily armed vehicles if they are armed with the bofors L/70 like the CV-90.

A reasonably priced, good quality, not too fancy IFV/AFV produced in coordination with say DRDO and private companies should do the job. With the MRO falling in the hands of the private companies along with design and component inputs and involvement from the R&D stage. Wouldn't this be a rational way to produce an article which would be mass produced and would provide an entry into the defense sector for many firms.

Furthermore we cannot even dream of competing with the established nations in terms of fighters, tanks and artillery when it comes to exports BUT these things like indigenous PGMs, SAM systems and IFVs would be products we could competitively price and export to many nations like Vietnam, Myanmar, Afghanistan, Iraq and African nations, NO?

NEEL said...

How good the Draco self-propelled 76mm anti-aircraft gun developed by OTO Melara?
Which is the best among the following-
ARTEMIS 30'' ANTI AIR GUN,Hydra Remote-Controlled Aerial Defence System with 35-mm anti-aircraft automatic cannon,Loara,South korean K30 Biho SPAAG,Draco 7mm SPAAG.

Prasun,Is the Tata Power SED had tied up with Huta Stalowa Wola HSW of Poland?

3rd ~ EyE said...

Dear Prasun ,

so what i can conclude from the data of seminar[INDIA’S NATIONAL STRATEGIC OPTIONS FOR CHINA] is that there is no options open at Our hands (other than bending knees) if in case China resorts to adventurism . the leadership aware of this ?
2. what is the measure taken by them to achieve preparedness, now that its clear mountain strike corps alone wont do the job.

are we left with any options against china ?

Ashu TD said...


raw13 said...


Ajay's thoughts are generally in the right direction wrt some indian views:

Question is how much real progress can be made. Karzi knows he is a dead fish, impotent. After his trantrums, the realisation has dawned (especially his shouting match with Obama via video conf). What can he really offer (and more importantly deliver) at the bargining table? The only thing is ISAF forces agreement and even this is not guranteed. Especially if you consider what has been happening at Bagram on regular basis (even with USA paying all the surrounding tribes!!!).

In Pakistan, NS seems (so far) to have learned his lesson well in exile. So far PA and NS seem to be on the same page, like the re-activation of NSC. Not attending the TAPI meeting. Setting up a new central Anti-Terrorist Task Force (paramilitary). The entire focus is internal at the moment and is likely to continue.

raw13 said...

The reason PAF is going towards stand-off offensive arms is simply because they do not have the capability to do so otherwise (How long do you think a Mirage V loaded with bombs can survive over India?). They are led by bafoons who can only think when shit hits them in the face and then its too late. I guess that is why IAF is not too worried about the state of their SAM systems.

Littlemaster said...


1.Today no hostile strike acs will come within 35-40 km of its target. With standoff ordance like the H-3,H-4 and Raad PAF jets can target hvt from well over 50 km.Then whats the whole point here when acs wont be ever entering the engagement envelope of Akash mk1 and 2. And IA and IAF doesnt have enough radar directed AAA for deploying around major airbases and military installations. Then whats the UTILITY of Akash ? Its a shorad and not MR-SAM with 25 km range.

2.An attacking aircraft can be made to abort its weapons deployment and force him to adopt a low level terrain higging.masking profile only when there is long range sams with ranges in excess of 120 km .And IA and IAF doesnt have enough radar directed AAA for deploying around major airbases and military installations.
And even if in IAF's case the hostile aircraft adopts a low level flight profile, Zu-23-2 and L-70 are simply incapable of intercepting ALCM Raad and standoff PGM.

3.Are there any chances of Panstir S1 and Tor M2E considering they are cheap,under production and have been exported to many countries.

4.What are the various counterstrike options against PLA missile siloes,launch pads,TEL available with IAF and IA taking into account the huge shortage of alcm and standoff pgm and the presence of just 290 km Brahmos lacm? ?

5. INDRUS reports IN is going to lease another Akula class 3rd gen SSGN.If IN doesnt have any operational sovereignty and if the sub cant be used against a potential adversary or in war then why has MoD and IN suddenly stepped up its efforts for leasing and is progressing on this front on a ar footing on a war footing.? There may be more than what meets the eye. Pls explain.

6.Will IA built a heliport in Dooars or a full fledged military airbase where fixed wing acs can takeoff and land? What platforms will Ia operate from there ?

7..How exactly can Arihant class serve as a SSBN with 750 km ranged K-15 and just 4 3500 km K-4 ?

8.Has expansion related constuction work started at Panagarh airfield. Very soon it will be housing six C-130J Hercules.You were saying it will be expanded.

Unknown said...

Dear prasunda,

1. Why is it GOI is not looking at A26 submarine(KOCKUMS) for P75I program which is a potent platform that features GHOST TECH/new stirling AIP with extremely high degree of automation? I agree that it is still on paper but the swedes are going to buy it for themselves and every new sub design is on paper till some one buys, even scorpene was on paper till chile and malays bought it or is it that HDW that now owns KOCKUMS does not want to promote this design and is only interested in promoting U-214 which has miserably failed its buyers? 2. what ur take on the winner of P75I PROGRAM now that NAVANTIA has withdrawn its design due to weight issues, Russians almost out due to the recent kilo tragedy and also to their lada being rejected by Russian navy itself & U-214's huge performance issues? 3. Would we be finally looking at buying enlarged scorpenes proposed by DCNS with MESMA/INDEGINOUS AIP? eagerly waiting for ur reply sir

Heberian said...

Dear Prasun,

Thank you for sharing the information from the seminars. I havent been able to keep up with the seminar circuits for quite some time now and so appreciate the sharing very much.

I remember your post about the lessons the PLA learnt from natural disasters and have always watched avidly and enviously when "Grandpa Wen" was on the ground during natural disasters. Our netas of all hues... well the less said the better.

One more things you had written briefly about about a year or so ago was regarding the impending economic situation. And today, when I saw the rupee at 68.75 to the US$... I was reminded of that post. Its not like the situation is entirely because of the US TReasury's policy changes... we have made so many terrible mistakes and decisions (like Ratan Tata commented ) that only helped us be in this situation.

As for all those stupid netas thinking about comparing us to China... well, not while we have leaders without any understanding of pragmatism and long term strategic thinking.. like you mentioned in conneciton with National Defense University.

I was wondering if you would care to share some thoughts about Raghuram Rajan and the tasks before him, and what he is likely to do..all in the shadow of the upcoming elections... and where we are likely to head.

Many thanks, as usual.

Bhaswar said...

Well sir,

Now things have come to a head. Consistent overshooting of fiscal margins, high CAD, impending FED tapering of the stimulus, policy paralysis in terms of inability to even enact basic legislation unless it be a populist measure and the sharp fall in investor sentiment thanks to the inconsistency and uncertainties- eg: POSCO being pushed out by a handful of mongrel villagers after everything was set- ergo killing confidence. I don't foresee the Rafale deal being signed in the next fiscal either. At best we may prop up a 4.5-4.8 percent growth figure for 2014-15. One wonders in the midst of all of this that how come the government suddenly woke up and cleared a 100+ pending infra projects- now the currency swap will have no effect in maerial terms beyond day to day operations and RBI's quantitative tightening- we are SCREWED proper.

At the moment, despite being a staunch secularist, I would be willing to elect Togadia if it meant that he could prop up the economy even in 3-4 years at the cost of a million dead folks from the minorities. Such a shame!

AKHIL SURI said...

Hi Prasun ,

Can a navalized version of the FGFA be able to take off from the Vikramaditya given the fact that Vikramaditya has a STOBAR operation mode ?


Heberian said...

Countries go out of their way to lure foreign investment. We pay lip service and then do what we can to chase away foreign investment. For those who might have missed it:

Surely this will help shore up the value of the Rupee.

Subir said...

Sir, VMT for the answers.

1.How was Myanmar army excatly able to enter into Indian territory in a Manipal border village and start construction activities unnoticed and unabated by BSF and Assam Rifles.

2.Will IA be interested in Vityaz S350 Sam.Its there in the SHORADS competition.?Though its a Mrsam it doesnt cost more than other Shorads.

3.Why does Iran sells us crude oil in Rs instead of $?Whats in there for Iran? And if so why cant the majority of our crude requirements be sourced from Iran ?

4.Is there any serious R&d on long wavelength VHF,UHF counter stealth radars by LRDE ?
Are P-15,P-18 AND STZ-68U still in active service .

5.Whats the currently adopted ways of stopping PAF air launched cruise,standoff pgm in their tracks,preventing them from getting deployed and intercepting Pak Baburs and Nlos-bsm. Baburs and Raad and H-4 pose some serious threat to us.

6.In immediate future will there be any sort of protection of imp military installtions from Pak IRBM and MRBM. Uptill what class of threats will PDV take care of and are there any concrete plans with IAF in deploying PDV ?

7.What is the viability of food security deal.Not a single person in BPL and AGL gave a dam about this deal.I think 99.99 percent doesnt even know it has been passed.But the passing of this deal has led to a steep depreciation of rupee and wbhich in turn will lead to a steep increase in diesel price.Now those people will feel the pinch.Those people whom Congress wanted to help will soon be adversly affected.So much for Upa 3.

Subir said...

What is its payload ?

Anonymous said...


240 gramz

Pinkal Shah said...

dear sir,

please don't overlook my comment as you are not bound by NDNC clause about aliens/ET info sharing so please give me details of it for my questions i will be highly obliged.

please give correct view regarding it.

Thank you

Pierre Zorin said...

Pinkal Shah if you are so curious about aliens why not join the Raelian movement because then you can attend their happiness academies that offer plenty to make you happy and conclude on a happy ending! LoL

Lingaraja said...

Why do I get the feeling that Subir has transformed himself into Littlemaster?

Gessler said...

Sir read this article -

It says "The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, during its new outstation trails, operated successfully by carrying and releasing 'long range beyond visual range weapons'."

Is this true? Have the BVR missiles been integrated with the MMR already?

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

MAKS 2013 Photos.....enjoy them:

Subir said...

To Lingaraj and anon.Pls dnt grill others with my name. And what problems are u having with my questions?My questions may be silly or anything but i am nt asking u and u are nt furnishing me with the answers.So keep ur mouth shut.If Prasun sir feels my questions arent worth asking he will nt have to answer them and he may delete them. I dnt ask the same thing twice AND u arent the one to judge me or my comments.

Sir, Will the West with Uncle Sam at the helms really going to militarily intervene in Syria?And will Russia then invade Saudi Arab if the West do so.It will have huge repurcussins.Even Iran has warned of attacking Israel then.And in the mean time global crude oil proces are rocketing steeply and we are being affected the most.

Pintu said...

Prasun Da, in reality, is any type of the project, as published by Times of India on the aforementioned link going on ?

Sayan said...


Besides this is RCI or other Drdo labs doing R&D on emp super hardening of electronic circuits used in defense kits,land and ship based radars of Navy and airforce,most of IAF IACCS elements and digital FBW,fadec,flight control computers,mission computers,radar assembly,irst and other mission sensors on IAF frontline fighter jets up to the degree that in the event of application of such an e bomb generating huge peak power emp pulses they keep on running optimally such that the plaform can stay on fighting.

Are there any joint efforts by Drdo and IAF in this regard wrt to its radars and aircraft fleet? How much emp hardened are Su30mki,MiG -29UPG,Jaguar and Mirage 2000 and ofcourse the now being developed indigenous LCA.

How is the Drdo Israeli JV in this field progressing?

Ther are around 2000 T-72.Why are teh barrels of just 800 being changed with T-90 24A6M when the barrels of the entire fleet have been fund to be faulty.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To DEFENSE & AEROSPACE: NH-90 is way too expensive compared to the S-70B2 Seahawk. Aussies’ decisions cannot become the benchmark as they have done terrible mistakes in the past, like going for the Kaman Super Seasprite & we all know what a mess it was!

To BHASWAR: 1) It is now in an advanced stage of development. 2) Yes. 3) Not yet. For starters, the country ought to have its own semiconductor foundry, something that ought to have been acquired way back in the early 1990s. 4) Where’s the in-country expertise reqd for developing such PGM families? 5) The Abhay tracked AIFV could very easily have been produced not as an AIFV, but as an APC since it had appreciable armoured protection & was powered by a proven powerplant (Greaves Cotton-developed diesel engine coupled to a GDLS-built automatic transmission.

To NEEL: The best AAA system is that which is already operational in Pakistan, i.e. the Rheinmetall-developed Millenium system.

To 3rd-EYE: There are several options, some of which have already been exercised to good effect. Therefore, the question of falling to one’s knees or bending over doesn’t even arise.

To RAW13: Karzai has since 2002 created a whole group of well-wishers & followers in the north, central & western parts of Afghanistan by awarding lucrative contracts to all these former warlords of Uzbek, Tajik & Hazara origin & is therefore by no means a spent force or impotent. No wonder he’s now trying very hard to gain the decisive support he needs from Iran & India in terms of activating the transit trade corridor through eastern Iran. For, compared to the Saudis, Qataris & UAE, Iran presently enjoys far greater influence in Kabul & there’s very little the US can do anything about it. Regarding the central anti-terrorist task-force being set up, it seems this task-force is meant to exclusively protect foreigners residing in Pakistan from acts of terrorism. Let’s hope NS & GHQ will in future be on the same page, since they are not yet as of now. If they were, then NS (or for that matter the PPP) would not have forsaken the comprehensive peace talks that Gen Musharraf had initiated with India since January 6, 2004 & had reached the stage of last-mile delivery by October 2007, as revealed by former FM Khurshid Mehmood Kasuri.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To LITTLEMASTER: 1) Why not? PGMs of the kind you’ve mentioned are not available in plenty in the sub-continent & therefore gravity bombs will still constitute the majority of offensive aerial ordnance being used. 3) Yes. 4) Have already specified them above. 5) Not true. 6) Only helicopters. 7) It can’t. 8) Yes.

To UNKNOWN: P-75I’s programme goals have changed over the past decade & now the goal is to help MDL sustain a viable SSK production programme while not making the mistakes of the past. What this translates into is to acquire SSNs that have a high degree of commonality with the Scorpene SSK. And that can only be offered by the S-80 version of Scorpene, which can come from either DCNS or even Navantia. Long gone are the days when a country could afford to field two totally different types of SSK designs. No one does it today & it will be suicidal for India to try to be the exception to the norm.

To HEBERIAN: The best critiques of India’s mismanaged economy appear in the following:

It has been a proven fact of life that any country that’s totally ravaged by either war of colonialism should not take more than 26 years to stand up on its own feet. Sadly, that was not the case with India after 1947 & that’s why 70% of India’s population can still be found to be defecating out in the open till this day. India had lost the plot in 1956 itself during the Avadi session of the INC. And had it not been for the disastrous mistakes committed by Chairman Mao in 1956 & 1974, India would today have been in a far worse situation. India’s political leaders typically don’t think long-term & therefore for them patriotism has only a five-year shelf-life & this explains why Sonia Gandhi & her NAC got working on the food security bill from 2009 itself, so that come 2014, a slew of dollouts & handouts at the expense of India’s middle-class citizens will help the Congress win another five-year term in office. She seems to have learnt well the lessons from the NDA’s debacle in 2004, when the NDA failed to evolve a similar plan for the southern states, as a result of which the TDP failed miserably in Andhra Pradesh & denied the NDA a third term in office. Consequently, we now have some Congress-appointed MPs of the Rajya Sabha shamelessly saying that since India’s constitution is socialistic, the country too requires socialism of the kind practiced by France & doesn’t require the private sector to exist at all! If this is the kind of leadership that India has, then not even God can come to the country’s rescue, rest assured.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To BHASWAR: No Togadia or Singhal will ever be able to prop up India’s economy. In fact, it is hate-mongering characters like these & like that so-called ‘Yogi’ Adityananda (howe the hell did he ever get nominated to the Rajya Sabha in the first place!!!) that have caused great to the Indian exchequer since 1992 by creating an internal security issue out of nothing through the Ram Janmabhoomi movement. These arseholes need to be clearly told that it is due their paternalistic misinterpretation of the Ramayana that India today continues to witness some of the most barbaric crimes being committed against women in India.

To AKHIL SURI: Of course. Why not? FGFA has TVC, which MiG-29K does not & this will further enhance the FGFA’s STOL performance.

To GESSLER: Given the fact that the DRDO has acquired the bad habit of pre-announcing any kind of maiden weapons-firing tests, you can rest assure that it will be the first one to release photos showing a BVRAAM launch from Tejas Mk1. And since no sucvh photos have been released thus far, it is amply safe to assume that no such test-firings have been carried out thus far.

To PINTU: Of course there is. It was publicly announced by Dr V K Saraswat in April 2012 in a ‘Walk The Talk’ programme that was aired by NDTV.

To SAYAN: Super EMP-hardening is only possible when all your systems & related accessories are buried deep inside a mountain. Not otherwise & therefore only the US, Russia & China have to date been able to undertake such efforts. No one else has done so.

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