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Monday, October 14, 2013

More Developments On The Naval Front

Vizag-based Hindustan Shipyard Ltd (HSL) recently released a global tender ( for the design, integration, supply and commissioning of the CODAD main propulsion system for what is believed to be a missile-tracking vessel for the DRDO. The vessel will have an overall length of 175.77 metres, draft of 6.45 metres, moulded breadth of 22.7 metres, displacement of 14,700 tonnes, maximum cruise speed of 21 Knots, normal cruise speed of 14 Knots, endurance of 14,000 miles at 14 Knots, or 7,000 miles at 21 Knots, and a crew complement of 300.
This vessel, which has been designed by the Indian Navy’s Naval Design Bureau, will also host an on-board L-band volume-search radar and an X-band active phased-array precision-tracking radar. The vessel will complement the DRDO’s two projected missile test ranges that will come up in future at Rutland Island (part of the Andaman and Nicobar island-chain), and at Nagayalanka in the Krishna district of Andhra Pradesh.
In another development, it has emerged that private-sector shipyards like the Surat-based  ABG Shipyard and the Bhavnagar-based Alcock Ashdown Shipyard Ltd are facing severe liquidity crunches, which in turn will only serve to delay the delivery of vessels already ordered and paid for by the Indian Navy and Indian Coast Guard. While ABG has to deliver three training vessels to the Indian Navy, Alcock Ashdown Shipyard Ltd, which was awarded the order to build the six 500-tonne, catamaran-type naval survey vessels based on an Australian design, has so far delivered only one—INS Makar—while delivery schedules for the remaining five vessels are now uncertain.
Also uncertain is the timely availability of the DRDO-developed Varunastra heavyweight torpedo, which was originally due to arm vessels like the three Project 15A and four Project 15B DDGs plus the four Project 28 ASW corvettes and the S-2/S-3/S-4 SSBNs. It is believed that the principal reason for the Varunastra’s unavailability is its sub-optimal performance in the high seas. This is due to the DRDO’s failure thus far to establish its own deep-sea floating underwater weapons testing-cum-calibration range off Rutland Island—a deficiency that should have been overcome two decades ago! Non-availability of such a range has also hindered the DRDO’s ability to develop a network of SOSUS-type seabed-based low-frequency sonars.
Meanwhile, Cochin Shipyard Ltd (CSL) has delivered the first two of 20 fast patrol boats that it was contracted to supply in early 2011 for the Indian Coast Guard. Each such vessel comes equipped with a waterjet-based propulsion system, plus Northrop Grumman-supplied hardware for the bridge.
Lastly, it is appearing increasingly likely that the Indian Navy will defer the issuance of the RFP for six Project 75I AIP-equipped SSKs and will instead issue the RFP for four LPHs. If this happens, then the Indian Navy will most certainly increased its orders of MDL-built Scorpene SSKs from the present six to at least 10 (i.e. through a follow-on order placed with MDL), with the additional four Scorpenes being equipped with an AIP plug-in that is specified by the Navy. What this also means is that such a step will also result in a fair amount of financial savings, which in turn could well be utilised for the LPH procurement programme, and this will also buy the Indian Navy some more time for finalising its projected SSN procurement plans.   


Prasun K. Sengupta said...

Spent the last four days watching the following:

The iconic hostage-rescue operation conducted by the IDF at Entebbe in Uganda in 1976, codenamed OP Thunderbolt:

MOSSAD’s OP Wrath of God, undertaken after the Munich Olympics Massacre of 1972:

OP Falcon, the IDF-AF air-strike against Iraq’s Osirak-1 nuclear reactor in June 1981:

Wonderful & insightful depictions of the future of UAVs, or RPAs:

Excellent documentary on network-centric technologies that are operational with France’s armed forces, including the FELIN, which is similar to India’s F-INSAS project:

Greatest Tank Battles:

1967 Arab-Israeli War:
1973 Yom Kippur Arab-Israeli War:
1973 Yom Kippur Arab-Israeli War:
1991 OP Desert Storm:

British SAS jungle-rescue operation in Sierra Leone (OP Barras):

British SAS rescue operation in London:

How & Why the US Navy’s SOSUS network was developed:

Most interesting espionage specials:

How modern-day spies are recruited:

Bhaswar Kumar said...

Sir should we cross post our questions from the previous thread here?

Since the AAD already used active radar guidance in the terminal stage what is the point of developing a new active radar seeker for the PDV?

Is there a chance that in the coming decade these high altitude and long range interceptors will see deployment on naval assets? Would it be impossible to mate them with sensors like the MF-STAR instead of the greenpine derivatives?

In the last thread you told Gessler that the Delhi class destroyers would be upgraded with the RAN-40L among other things, sir shouldn't we have ensured that the Kolkata class destroyers came out with the RAN-40L first instead of an outdated ASR? Furthermore shouldn't such upgrades be planned for the Shivalik frigates instead?

Will the P-15Bs also suffer from the 6-8 year gap between launch and commissioning or have such issues been solved?

Sir why not design the LPH ourselves, surely after having designed the Vikrant that should not be too difficult? Is the IN at least designing follow on ships for the Austin class with a heavier tonnage and larger well-decks?

sachin_sathe said...


It seems tht in face of financial crunch, Logical expenditure methods seems to prevail which can only be a good thing. Regarding severe cash crunch of pvt shipyards it can be an excellent opportunity for investing for both Indian & foreign(if allowed)business groups provided the proces is swift & clean ur thoughts?

Can this missile tracking vessel be further developed into an AEGIS type system?It seems to be large enough to house AAD type missile if the telemetry systems are replaced with a combat system utilizing the same radar if possible ur thoughts?

Also the govt's proactive efforts in dealing with Phailin Cyclonic Storm seems to have averted a major disaster(human casualties could hav been in thousands) Can u do a detailed analysis of how the Military forces & non-military depts achieved this?


Subir said...

Sir, Wishing you and your loved ones SubhoBijoya.

1.Kolkata class DDG have voulme scan X band MFSTAR and L band RAWL /EL/M-2238 Star. Can these vessels be used for missile tracking and accurate trajectory plotting ?

2.Who will be the likely contenders for the X-band AESA and L band volume search radar?Mfstar wont fit the bill perfectly due to its 300 km class range.

Wont there be long range multi spectral passive IR,UV sensors in this vessel ?

3.Its a good news that atlast Drdo will be getting a missile tracking vessel.Another vessel of this class needs to be ordered . When will construction,fabrication of modules for this vessel commence and when is the targetted commission date ?

4.What exactly is transpiring in the minds of the senior staff,naval planners in IN HQ wrt to torpedo armament of P15A and Arihant class subs ?When Varunastra has severe performance deficiencies why isnt RFI being issued for a foreign OEM torpedo or go for the ones that had been procured for the Scorpenes ? It seems unlikely that these principal combatants will be having no torpedo armament for most of 2014.

5.For the upcoming PDV launch from where will the target missile be launched ?Wheeler island is just 70 km from ITR Chandipur. If launched from there,the target missile wont be able to exaclty replicate the trajectory and performance parameters of an IRBM or a 5000 km Icbm . So , whats the soln?

6.Russia has deployed the A135 ABM system around Moscow since 1995 with the Gazelle endo atmospheric interceptor armed with HE warheads. During cold war era it waas armed with nukes and was complemented with the longer reach Gorgon. US has also deployed a limited scale BMD netowrk over its mainland in form of THAAD and GMD missiles. It already has a formidable sea based BMD which can well stand up to a massed IRBM attack.Besides they have SAM systems with a secondary ABM capability. Russia has deployed hundreds of S-300PMU and scores of S-400 launchers. In our case we dont have that class of sam.None of the 25km Akash or Pechora can intercept and nuetralise NLOS-BSM ot TBM strikes. Whether Akash can intercept low RCS LACM and ALCM also needs to be seen.Huge nos of 110 km Barak-8ER are needed. S-400 with 200 km 48N6,40N6E,Pac-3 class 9M86 AND 9M86E2 can serve as cost effective ABM and cruise missile defence for military installations,war sustenece infrastructure,civilain infr of strategic importance

7.Is there any progress made in QRSAM and SHORADS tenders of IA and IAF for which TORM2E ,Panstir...etc are participating ?

8.Has any serious problem cropped up in the detailed design phase of FGFA as is being reported by media?Fgfa is now being said be delayed by another year.

9.Is it cheaper to license assemble Su30mki and also build them from raw materials supplied by Russia in HAL Ozhar than to import them off the shelf from Irkutsk? Is it the same with AL-31FP engine ?

10.A new large state of the art Sukhoi engine division has come up at HAL Koraput. Besides license assembling from SCVD kits supplied by Saturn and manufacture of blisks does it overhaul and repair AL-31FP ?

Subir said...

11.Why isnt IN exercising the option of installing ethanol based AIP in the last 3 Scopenes ?AIP could also have been installed on the 4 Type 209 1500 when they underwent SLEP recently .

12.In the recent Keran operation , many PA backed terrorists were shot dead at the anti infiltration grid and many were shot on our side of LoC.Our soldiers had cordoned off the entire area expcept from Pakistani side. At many of the places where the terrorists had been shot dead there were IA posts. Infront of so many of our soldiers how could the Pakis sneak in and took back the bodies of their fallen comrades. Atleast the bodies of those who were shot dead in our territory could have been collected. And when their mates came to collect their fallen jihadis they would have come under intense fire from our soldiers . Inpite of this how did they manage to accomplish this and we ended up without a single dead terrorist corpse ??

13. Pakistan's economy is now literraly in shambles.There were many media reports that due to their detoriating economy PN is likely to cancel the procurement of 6 AIP equipped Qing class SSK from China and PAF would be unable to acquire 36 FC-20. Well, are these for real or someone is just beating the bush ?? If its for real what are the other military modernisation plans that had ben adversly affected,rolled back due to the recent turn of events ?

DAshu said...

I have a strong feeling that those who are at decision making posts, are not only following this blog closely but actually trying to implement the good free advices of your logical analysis, which is an excellent news for the country.

raw13 said...

A long while year ago i said Pakistan has no funds left for weapons, you could see the squeeze. 20yrs or so back Pakistan had to make a decision, try to match india conventially and go bust very quickly or do what NATO did in central europe. They went the NATO route, aka build TNW. This has eaten up all the funds PERIOD

All programs except the TNW /SFC related ones are delayed or mothballed. Even the flagship JF17 and Khalid Tank programs have suffered. FC20 is pretty much in frozen state and many are saying lets cancel it outright and go for the next gen.

Qing may still come when PN are happy with it but another folly is the Naval Strategic Force Command. That is draining all the limited funds for the navy. You guys have few babu's we have bafoons by the truckload in higher positions. They all want an action of SFC. There is no accountability whatsoever.

As Prasun said in few years PA might match RR. I think he was being kind. At the current rate India Police will be better equiped in 25yrs time. Let me explain, currently an official makes a decision, the successor thinks he can do better and cancels/delays the previous decision and issues a new one. This cycle is being repeated everywhere, endlessly. The result is degradation in capability and outdated skills. Leadership is completely missing.

I sometime wish we had someone even remotely like your defence minister.

AKHIL SURI said...

Prasun Ji ,

Just went through the video links of the Special Forces that you have posted .

One question that comes to mind is are Indian Special Forces at par with US SEAL , UK SAS or Israeli Special Forces ?




You seem to be the only commetator anywhere who is shedding any light on the iN'S SPB force. The establishment of such a force has gone pretty much unnoticed by all the so-called Indian defence reporters.

This force has HUGE signifcance, giving India true and potent expeditionary warfare is nothing short of groundbreaking. The current IA amphibious brigades are shambolic, barely trained or equipped for the task. There was a pic that stuck with me :

I mean it is utterly humilating to see the stark differences. Uptil now India has merely played with this capability. However from what you say the SPB will be the "real deal" with integral aviation and fire supoort elements.

So my quesiton is when will the rest of the media wake the fcuk up and see what is going on???

Also how long before this force is up and running and is battle ready?

Abhishek said...

check this out ...

Anonymous said...

India needs LPH more desperately than submarines. It's a wise decision to increase the number of Scorpenes while releasing RFP for LPH.
I hope India awards the contract to Navatia of Spain for their Juan Carlos type LHD. Such LHD equipped with F35B will be more than enough to counter any threats in Indian Ocean Region for at least next four decades. This step will also allay the delay in inducting INS Vikrant and INS Vishal indigenous aircraft carriers.

Vikram Guha said...

Prasun Da,

Wishing you and your family SUBHO BIJOYA.

Best Regards,

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To BHASWAR KUMAR: The PAD & AAD are only technology demonstrators & have no operational value. The PDV will have dual sensors—RF & IIR. The AD-1/AD-2 will both have IIR sensors for terminal homing. All kinetic hit-to-kill warheads worldwide that are optimised for intercepting IRBMs or MRBMs or TBMs have optronic terminal seeksrs & the PDV & AD-1/AD-2 will not be only the exceptions. There’s no need for deploying such missiles on naval vessels since India does not require sea-based BMD systems for continental air-defence. Such systems are only reqd for those navies (like those of NATO & Japan) that have an expeditionary mission to protect those countries that require a foreign BMD umbrella. RAN-40L from the outset should have been ordered for the three P-15A & four P-15B DDGs. The EL/M-2282 AMDR on P-17 FFGs is more than adequate for the time-being. The first P-15B DDG should be available by 2018, although I believe this timeframe can easily be squeezed down to four years. LPH can’t be designed in–house since it will have revolutionary on-board systems of the kind the IN has not yet been exposed to & I had explained all this last December in the thread on ‘SMM Seminar’.

To SACHIN SATHE: That’s the very reason why I have been calling on the Govt of India to sign the logistics support agreement with the US, so that US-based shipyards can invest in the Indian shipbuilding industry & the latter in turn gains much in terms of manufacturing know-how & product-support innovations. However, in a country where the left-of-centre political mindset remains predominant, such logical solutions will never be entertained & instead, the DPSUs will be given precedence in terms of financial survival—much to the detriment of the country’s shipbuilding industry. The missile-tracking vessel can of course be utilised as a vital component of a BMD early-warning network. Combat management system won’t be on-board this vessel.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To SUBIR: VMT. 1) Total rubbish. EL/M-2248 MF-STAR is S-band & LW-08 is L-band. The former does missile-tracking. 2) IAI/ELTA & Raytheon. 3) One vessel is enough. Those who have more than one such vessel use them for satellite-tracking as well. India does not want such a capability. Construction will begin by late 2015. 4) ATLAS Elektronik’s Sea Hake heavyweight torpedo will likely be ordered. 5) Solution is to launch the surrogate target from A & N islands. But this won’t be possible. 6) Russia’s ABM system was decommissioned after the Cold War was over. Only the chain of ground-based early warning radars remains active. All of Russia’s sea-based LR-SAMs can at best intercept NLOS-BSMs & SCUD/Nodong 1-type ballistic missiles, nothing else. Nor are such LR-SAMs deployed in large numbers by the Russian Navy. S-300 or S-400 or V-2500 can’t intercept IRBMs or MRBMs equipped with manoeuvring re-entry warheads since these LR-SAMs don’t have optronic terminal seekers. RF seekers are very easy to fool with decoys. ALCMs/SLCMs/GLCMs can be intercepted ONLY WHEN they’re exposed over flat terrain for long periods to ground-based MR-SAMs or E-SHORADS or even SHORADS. Since the cruise missiles will NEVER fly over such flat terrain & will instead use terrain-masking to hide their flight-profiles, NO ONE in their right mind will ever use MR-SAMs or E-SHORADS to engage cruise missiles. Instead, SHORADS equipped with IRST early warning sensors will be the ONLY WAY an airborne cruise missile can be detected, tracked & intercepted within a very limited timeframe. 7) No. 8) No. Only the AL-41F turbofan’s arrival is awaited. 9) It’s always much more cheaper to acquire them off-the-shelf from the foreign OEM. 10) This facility will overhaul the AL-31FPs IN FUTURE. Another such facility will come up by 2016 to overhaul RD-33-3 & RD-33MK turbofans of MiG-29UPG & MiG-29K. 11) IN prefers Stirling Engine due to its GLOBALLY PROVEN reliability. Ethanol-based AIP is still unproven & therefore very risky. Because all the corpses were near the IA-erected security fence & access to these areas was impossible due to presence of PA snipers perched atop trees. Furthermore, when the thickly forested area is set afire during daytime by the infiltrators, zero-visibility prevails. 13) All such China-origin weapons can easily be acquired through long-term low-interest loans extended by China to Pakistan.

To DASHU: VMT indeed.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To AKHIL SURI: It’s not about comparing capabilities, but the will/unwillingness to use them when & wherever they’re reqd. It is the latter that moulds & shapes the former. It’s no use having units like MARCOS if they’re not unleashed against those Somali pirates that have held/are holding Indian merchant marine personnel hostage on board vessels that are still anchored offshore. Contrast this with either OP Thunderbolt, or even the last British Airways flight to Kuwait (BA-149) just when Iraq had invaded Kuwait in mid-1990. There’s a 10-part documentary on this flight uploaded in Youtube which clearly proves that 10 Downing Street was well aware of Iraqi’s Kuwait invasion plans & therefore had decided against cancelling or diverting BA-149 & instead almost 10 MI-6/SAS intel-gathering/recon personnel were booked on board that flight at the very last minute & they were successfully infiltrated inside Kuwait City just prior to the arrival of the Iraqi military in the airport itself. The downside was that the civilian passengers of BA-149 were held as hostages/human shields by Saddam Hussein for the next six months, yet it required balls, grit & guts on the part of the then British PM Margaret Thatcher to authorize such a mission, knowing very well that innocent civilians would be exposed to grave danger. Do you foresee any Indian politician who can ever display such leadership skills???

To TRUTHSEEKER & Anon@7.03PM: All that the ‘desi’ journalists have to do is check out the list of Govt of India gazettes that are already open-source materials once released by the Ministry of Information & Broadcasting & they will get to know everything there is to about the SPB & its establishment costs, etc. However, almost all of these ‘desi’ news-reporters hardly bother to take the trouble to do so & instead spend long hours sipping free beverages & gulping free snacks courtesy of the PIB, hoping that the MoD’s DIPR will release some crumbs & bits of information during late afternoons & when this happens, it becomes headline news. That’s how the ‘desi’ news-reporters always miss the woods for the trees. The SPB won’t be fully battle-ready for expeditionary force projection for as long as the four LPHs, twelve 12-tonne NMRHs, 16 LCACs & amphibious ICVs don’t arrive. However, for limited operations such as garrisoning of offshore islands, the SPB can manage even today with the IN’s existing assets.

The LPH offered by Spain’s NAVANTIA (and ordered by Australia) is indeed the IN’s favourite at this stage. However, F-35Bs aren’t required for expeditionary force projection operations as conceptualised by the IN, since MRCAs like MiG-29Ks will be available for both tactical air superiority & tactical air-strikes. Instead, what’s reqd on board the LPHs are—in addition to NMRHs & LCACs & ICVs—LAHs that will serve as both airborne forward observers as well as providers of suppressive firepower during amphibious assault-landings. Also, each of the LPHs ought to be armed with a naval version of Pinaka-1 MBRL (at least twin 12-barrel launchers per LPH). And when it comes to ICVs, what’s reqd are not battle-taxis, but ‘desi’ BMPT-2-type platforms of the type I had described in the previous thread.

To VIKRAM GUHA: VMT & the very same to you & all your loved ones.



I think you had actually predicted this a long way back:

What happens now?? Will the Indian Govt see sense? Apprantly they refused to even sit down with the folks at AW and have an open and sensible conversation!!

Will the 3 in service airframes be returned? Or will the 9 units being built in the UK be delivered to the IAF at some point?

Will this issue have any implocations for any other deals that AW are bidding for ie Indian Naval helo procurements?

STUFF said...


When will the first F-INSAS elements (for the inanfty) be actually tested on an IA unit??

What kind of timeline are we looking at for the entire project to be completed?

I watched that FELIN vid you had posted, can we have such high hopes for the F-INSAS taht it will compare to this French future warfighting concept?

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To TRUTHSEEKER: I had predicted all this & I had also at that suggested plausible alternatives, but it looks like all that had fallen into deaf ears. As matters now stand, no legal due process will acknowledge India’s decision to cancel the AW-101 deal & seek damages, since it has not yet been legally established by the Italian courts that the AW-101 deal between India & AgustaWestland was tainted or that people based in India or abroad were bribed to secure the deal. Consequently, any court of arbitration will rule that it is India that’s defying its contractual obligations by seeking contract cancellation & by refusing to make the progress payments to AgustaWestland for the remaining nine AW-101s. This in turn will have enormous negative implications, since OEMs all over the world will be highly averse to doing business with India just because of India’s failure to adhere to the legalities governing any procurement contract.

To STUFF: They will be tested not before 2015. It will take at least a decade to complete the entire project.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

Here’s a programme that details for the very first time how & when the plot to stage the October 12, 1999 military coup in Pakistan was conceived, as well as how exactly it was carried out & by whom:

And in this programme, watch how even former IA military officers (in this case retired Maj Gen Ashok Mehta) involved with Track-2 dialogues are found wanting when it comes to articulating India’s POV when it comes to the prevailing tensions along the LoC:

Finally, here’s an absolutely brilliant two-part series on the 1973 Arab-Israeli War, its conduct & its implications. I highly recommend it for viewing by all who are interested in studying & analysing politico-military grand strategy, operational art & battlefield tactics. This series is by far the most objective depiction of the war & most closest to the authoritative account of the war as recorded in the book THE WAR OF ATONEMENT by Maj Gen Haim Herzog (who later became President of Israel).

Bhaswar said...

Q-1 Sir what do you think of Sri VP Malik Jee's Kargil- From surprise to victory? And also of "Assymetric warfare in South Asia: The Causes and Consequences of the Kargil Conflict" by Peter R. Lavoy? Accurate and worth reading?

Q-2 Sir if we opt for the Canberra class which the Australians picked from Navantia then will it be able to accommodate the Textron LCACs which the Americans use? As opposed to Navantia's LCM-1E the LCACs are far superior, allow access to more beaches and landing grounds over rougher terrain, can carry more load and can operate over the horizon at greater ranges? With even the Chinese opting for the Zubr, although lord knows which LHD that beast can fit into, we too should take a hint and look at the advantages provided by the air cushion (not in terms of a tit for tat mentality with the Chinese but actual advantages of the LCAC).

Q-3 Also while we do need battle taxis for our infantry immediately. The 50+ ton ICVs can wait, we don't need them right now since they are not of much use in the mountains and the NE where we are shoring up our capabilities at the moment and against Pakistan we have enough superiority to afford a few years for inducting such heavy ICVs. As such we should develop them ourselves, after all we have all the building blocks. At 50 tons and over it can easily use the same engine as the Arjun, the same suspension systems, the IRDE commanders site and electronics which have been developed, AMAP armor modules, SAMHO/NAG even the optronics for the ATGM can be the same COMPASS system used on the NAMICA. As such all we really need are certain foreign components but we don't need to co-develop or enter a JV or worse procure them from some foreign OEM. If you disagree then can you elucidate why in detail?

Q-4 What additions will be made to the aircraft inventory of the Chengdu MraF in the coming decade according to you?

Q-5 What of the amphibious transport docks, any chance that we can manufacture ships in the class of the Trenton LPD? How many such ships will we need?

Q-6 What will the difference be between the Barak-8 and Barak-ER (110-120Km) in terms of dimensions, will a ship like the Kolkata class destroyer be able to replace the Barak-8s with the longer ranged version on a one on one basis and maintain the SAME no. of missiles at the end of the day?

Q-7 Can the PDV be used to create our own theater ballistic missile defense system? IF so would it be practical to deploy it in the NE along with the LR-SAM, Akash, Spyder along with AEW&C and aerostat mounted sensors providing detection for a combined theater ballistic and cruise missile defense system?

Bhaswar said...

Also sir,

from the previous thread, wiki states that the Kolkata class carries 64 SAMs which includes both the Barak-8s and Barrak-1s, it does not provide a break up in terms of the individual SAM systems. How many Barak-8s does the Kolkata carry definitively and how many Barak-1s?

Also apart from sensors (sonar and radars) what are the core sub-components of ships that India CANNOT design and/or fabricate at the moment? Could you provide a comprehensive list along with measures required for indigenous development of said components wherever it would be feasible to do so (since, apparently 100% indigenous production is not feasible)?

Sir there seems to be a "kaccha" road extending from Manali to Keylong and then up to to Leh, is it possible (considering the topography and other factors, not considering the Indian laxity in road-works though) to convert this route into a multi lane, black top road?

Similarly the dirt tracks/paths/kaccha roads extending from Leh up north along the Nubra river, is it possible to do the same with them (again not in terms of our own lackadaisical behavior but just in terms of topography and the intricacies of road building) AND THEN EXTEND THEM TO DBO, is there anyway to connect Leh and DBO by road?

It would be coorect to assume that there are no proper roads leading from Leh to Pangong Tso lake or the south eastern parts of Ladakh? Same for Kaza Khas in north east Himachal? What will it take to extend the road network till there?

The maps show that even small parts of Himachal and Uttarakhand are disputed, are they under our administration or Chinese administration?

Is there ANY hope whatsoever that comprehensive road building projects will be initiated in Ladakh anytime soon? Any possible rash of leaders blessed with the vision to see the importance of said connectivity? Any theoretical/prospective/projected plans for the same?



I'm sure the MoD/GoI has some good lawyers and once it is made clear to the fucking idiots in charge that their position is untenable then these fools will back down and take a sensible stance on the whole AW-101 affair.

As it was they overreacted to the AW 101 deal for some strange reason when it seems there was very little actually done wrong. And yet with other HUGE scams the GoI moves at exhaustingly slow pace.

What do you actually see happening though? AFAIK AW have actually been very fair and sensible to date, they've tried to talk to the Goi/MoD to present them with FACTS and reassure them but the GoI/MoD has simply refused to talk to them. As such this arbritration process was an option of last resort and seems to have been used as a tactic to bring the GoI/MoD to the negotiating table as much as it is to protect AW's finical investment in this deal (they've built the machines but have nothing to do with them, they're even using a couple of units as their static display units in certain airshows ie MAKS, you can see clearly the AW-101 at MAKS is in IAF colours).

AW have even kept support staff in India to look after the 3 units already in service in India.

As these are actually the very best machines India could buy for this particular requirement is there any chance the deal will just go ahead? The remaining 9 units will be delivered to the IAF and that's the end of the matter?

Or are we looking at all the investment both sides (IAF and AW) have made in this deal all coming to nought? And another re-bidding process having to take place?

All whilst the MI-8/17s the senior most Indian leadership are flying around in are coming to the end of their lives and are so increidbly unsafe when compared to the AW-101s. What will it take? The PM to lose his life in a helo crash? A service cheif? The president of India??

STUPIDITY doesn't even cover what has gone on here.

Biswajit Pattanaik said...

Sir, VMT in advance 1)Sir,Could u plz clarify that will Nirbhay Missile range would b increased in the class of 2500Kms-5000Kms in the future? 2)Sir,In an earlier post u said that Indian Navy is looking to Barracuda SSNs Hull as a possible Hull for its SSNs/SSGNs. Will IN also look for Barracuda's propulsion system inclusive of its Turboeductors,Pump-Jet etc.

THINKER said...


Will India be signing this deal for 145 M777 anytime soon??

Look at this news:

Fucking idiots in the MoD are too scared to make a call, we've seen it again and again. Just how pathetic are these a-holes that they won't do their bloody jobs??

Making India look a laughing stock to the world.

joydeep ghosh said...

@Prasun da

What is your opinion on the book 'US-Pakistan: Magnificent Delusions' by Hussain Haqqani based on ndtv program 'Buck Stops Here' hope you have seen it

As for Scorpenes i expect the numbers to touch 18 in all aspects with VLS missile and AIP modules to be done stage by stage during mid life upgrades for first 12 and last 6 including all features from start

Just heard IAF wants HAL to make Pilatus at home, i consider it as a good option for training, if its done this way:

Stage 1 PCMk2
Stage 2 (part 1) PCMk2 (more powerful)
Stage 2 (part 2) Hawk AJTs
Stage 3 (part 1) Hawk AJTs
Stage 3 (part 2) Tejas LIFTs (Lead In Fighter Trainer)for conversion training

This will allow IAF pilots do training to fly both the single seat jets like the Rafale, MiGs, PAK FA as well as twin seaters like the Su30MK and FGFA both of which have pilots and WSO allowing the 2 later jets to be used in combat and not training


Joydeep Ghosh

Mr. Ra 13 said...

At last General Giap also passed away. His mastercraft art of the war helped the global war industry to grow up in leaps and bounds.

Pintu said...

Prasun Da, a very Happy Vijaya Dashami to you, and everybody here.

Anonymous said...

Namaskar DaDa,Recently there were news about russian helo carrier and countries like brazil etc have shown there intrest in the helo carrier.Do you think Indian navy should also have helo carriers.what is the specific role of an helo carrier and what it can do which an aircraft carrier can not do.How do you find them to fit in indian navy fleet.Do they are the part of a specified CBG or they will form another set of CBG.What would be the doctrine to use them in indian scenario.Thanks in advance.

Sujoy Majumdar said...

Prasun Da ,

Subho Bijoya to you and your family.


Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To BHASWAR: 1) These books are only an accurate narration of events as they transpired & don’t throw any light on lessons learnt. For instance, the greatest gift given by Gen Musharraf & his Gang of Four to India through OP Badr is the lesson that even under a nuclear overhang, high-intensity limited wars can be fought between two nuclear weapon-states—something that India-based strategists have not bothered to discuss in the open & something which has been extensively discussed & debated within Pakistan in several TV channels, with the majority of retired senior Pakistani armed forces concluding that OP Badr totally discredited the strategic stability that had prevailed between May 1998 & mid-1999 & that Pakistan has been the nett loser. 2) Textron’s LCACs can indeed go on board the LPHs designed/built by NAVANTIA. The PLA Navy’s Zubrs are not meant to be transported by LPDs. Instead, they’re standalone platforms meant for transporting quick-reaction PLA Marine forces for combatting localised littoral contingencies within the Spratly & Paracel group of islands in the South China Sea. 3) For future high-intensity limited wars along both India’s western & northern fronts, the present-day BMP-2K ICVs of the RAPIDS/Pivot formations won’t survive for long. Consequently, what’s reqd immediately are ‘desi’ BMPT-2-type platforms of the type I had described in the previous thread. Procuring 50-tonne ICVs is a long-term process & can be done on a staggered basis starting 2020. 4) Most of the J-7-equipped squadrons will be converting to the J-10 M-MRCA, while the remainder will convert to the J-11B heavy MRCA. 5) There’s no need for them, since the LPHs can easily do the job. 6) Barak-8NG will be longer as it will carry a jettisionable booster section. Barak-8NG won’t be interchangeable with Barak-2 on board warships. 7) Till to date, no one in the world has deployed such a BMD network, simply because it is cost-prohibitive. 8) I don’t care what anyone else says about the weapons package on board the P-15A DDG. For me, the only reliable source for such data is the shipbuilder, i.e. MDL, whose scale-models of the DDG as displayed during DEFEXPO 2012 & again at Aero India 2013 clearly provide all the answers. 9) That list was provided in mid-2011 itself just prior to the commissioning of INS Satpura. 10) All that it takes is a kick on the backsides of the BRO’s top-brass to move their arses & implement the projects in a time-bound manner, which can easily be done if a force of migrant workers is raised by the BRO & they’re made to work in three shifts daily. This ain’t rocket science.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To TRUTHSEEKER: I’m afraid you’re terribly overestimating the legal sagacity of the Govt of India’s legal luminaries/advisers. Mindsets haven’t changed at all since the mid-1980s when the HDW & Bofors scandals blew up. Even a novice on legal issues will be hardput to explain the spectacularly foolish steps initiated by the MoD thus far regarding the AW-101 procurement process. To me, the Govt of India’s entire enquiry process should have been limited to the UK only, since the accused OEM—
AgustaWestland—is a UK-based/-registered corporate entity. Consequently, the Govt of India should have requested its UK counterpart to have the financial transactions related to the contract implementation process be investigated by the UK’s Serious Frauds Investigations Office. This in turn would have led to the UK authorities contacting their Italian counterparts for assistance in the investigations & only then could it have been known whether or not 1) money from the AW-101 deal had been transferred internally from AgustaWestland to its holding company—Finmeccanica of Italy; 2) whether it was this money that was provided by Finmeccanica to some Italian politicians; 3) whether this money came from the progressive payments made by the Govt of India in tranches to AgustaWestland & if yes, then this is a clear-cut case of fraudulent money transfers internally between AgustaWestland & Finmeccanica; 4) Were these slush funds part of the contract value for the 12 AW-101s; & 5) As a consequence of the previous point, did AgustaWestland actually over-charge the Govt of India by inflating the acquisition costs of the AW-101s.
Seeking answers to these 5 questions alone via a process I’ve explained above will clear all the mist surrounding the AW-101 procurement contract & will enable India to claim liquidated damages from AgustaWestland. Instead, this has clearly not been done & the Govt of India through the CBI is only trying to acquire investigative data through the on-going Italian court trial which, in any case, isn’t investigating any find of fraudulent corporate money transfers (which matters most to India if she wants to claim liquidated damages from the UK-based OEM AgustaWestland), but is only investigating the money laundering charges involving Italian politicians, their Swiss-based & UK-based middlemen, & Finmeccanica, a company that does not have any signed-and-sealed agreement of any kind with India regarding the AW-101 contract. Now, do you see at last what kind of monkeying-around the Govt of India has resorted to via the CBI? Does everyone now realise how the entire investigation is being obfuscated? Is it not evident that choosing & ordering the AW-101 was never an issue since the qualitative performance parameters of a three-engined helicopter will on any given day triumph over its twin-engined counterparts? Is it not known to everybody that the final seal of approval for procuring the AW-101 came from the SPG & not from IAF HQ? And if so, then why is a former CAS of the IAF & indeed the entire IAF HQ is being publicly humiliated? Therefore, you’re absolutely right in saying that STUPIDITY doesn’t even cover what’s already transpired & what’s transpiring.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To BISWAJIT PATTANAIK: 1) There are no plans to increase the Nirbhay’s range beyond 1,200km. 2) Absolutely yes.

To THINKER: Procurement contracts for both the LW-155s & CH-47Fs are due to be inked sometime this financial year itself, perhaps early next January, so I’m told. It’s no use blaming the MoD’s bureaucrats for the delays, since they’re not delaying it at all & they’re not the decision-makers anyway. In any parliamentary form of govt, the decision-makers are always the elected members of the executive branch of the govt, i.e. the Govt of India’s Union Minister of Finance, Minister of Defence & members of the Cabinet Committee on National Security. And these members are presently attentive to only the Telangana/Seemandhra issue, the Narendra Modi issue, & implementation of the Food Security Bill, which is the UPA-2’s ticket to forming the UPA-3. Everything else is secondary & insignificant.

To JOYDEEP GHOSH: For a person who has been branded as Pakistan’s Traitor No1 since June 2011, what else can be do except write books to make a living? Far more interesting would have been a book titled “India’s Magnificient Delusions—How India since 1947 Has Failed To Call Pakistan’s Bluffs & Failed To Dissuade/Deter Pakistan From Crossing India’s Red-Lines”. As for undersea warfare, any country transitioning from diesel-electric SSKs to nuclear-powered submarines has no choice but to reduce the number of SSKs in service while increasing the number of SSN, SSBNs & SSGNs. The US, Russia, France & the UK are living proof of such a trendset & India cannot be the global exception. Inserting VLS cells into SSKs is totally senseless. Had it made any sense, the DCNS itself would have developed VLS cells for the Scorpene to launch naval SCALP SLCMs. For flying-training, only 3 undivided stages are reqd: Stage-1 with PC-7 Mk2 BTTs, Stage-2 with Hawk Mk132 AJTs & Stage-3 with Tejas Mk1 LIFT.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Mr.RA 13: The departed Gen Giap joins the list of other revolutionary Asian military leaders that played a role in reshaping Asia’s post-colonial history, the others being Mao Tse-Tung of Mainland China & Gens Sudirman & Benny Murdani of Indonesia. Alas, Subhas Chandra Bose does not figure in this list due to the Govt of India’s extreme reluctance till this day to recognise his achievements as part of India’s official military history.

To PINTU & SUJOY MAJUMDAR: VMT & the very same to you & all your loved ones.

To Anon@11.24PM: The LPH doubles up as a helicopter carrier as well & can host up to nine 12-tonne NMRHs plus four LCACs. Alternatively, the LPH can host six NMRHs & four LAHs. The IN wants LPHs for two reasons: 1) it wants to use its 4 projected LPHs for conducting humanitarian relief operations throughout the Indian Ocean Region (IOR); & 2) it wants the LPHs to ferry naval infantry personnel (of the 15,000-strong Sagar Prahari Bal (SPB) for conducting expeditionary warfare within the IOR through both amphibious assaults (with LCACs) as well as vertical envelopments (with NMRHs). Officially, the IN refers to this concept as “Effecting Maritime Manoeuvres From The Sea”. When conducting such warfighting expeditionary operations, the LPHs will become part of a carrier battle group, since carrier-based MiG-29L MRCAs will be responsible for both defensive air superiority of the CBG & offensive tactical superiority as well as tactical air-strikes in support of the amphibious assault force.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

Interesting analysis:

Ni8 Dweller said...

Prasun Da,
The Videos has been a Goldfest so far. Thank you between looking at how the AW-101 issue has been handled so far, your quote of India being the 'Refusing to grow' kind is being proven Time and again.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Ni8 DWELLER: VMT indeed. The ones most engrossing from an academic perspective are these:

They are a two-part series on the 1973 Arab-Israeli War, its conduct & its implications. The 3rd part is due for telecasting this week. I highly recommend them for viewing by all who are interested in studying & analysing politico-military grand strategy, operational art & battlefield tactics. And to supplement what’s shown on these two videos, here are two detailed narratives on how the IDF took on the combined might of the Egyptians, Syrians, Iraqis, Jordanians & Moroccans, & still, prevailed over them despite being outnumbered:

Bhaswar said...

So basically its doable, just by us Indians. Not surprising. Has work started on the road link to Murgo and then onward to DBO with the work being stalled or has the project itself not even been started? You didn't state anything on the viability of the Manali-Keylong-Leh route?

How many LCACs can the Navantia's Canberra carry, as compared to the American LPHs it isn't too large and they only accommodate 4 LCACs so how many for us per vessel (assuming that Navantia wins)?

Also what new technology were you talking about in terms of the LPH and IN getting exposed to it through this product? Surely Well decks and azimuth thrusters aren't exactly the cutting edge or all that rare?

So since you agree that the 50+ ton ICV is meant for 2020 and beyond, then obviously we should develop it ourselves. The commonality with the Arjun will also be selling point (IF you turn out to be right with the Mk.2 finding its place in the IA in good numbers), it will also ease logistics and spares maintenance? Yes?

Sir, are 4 LPHs going to cater to 15,000 SPB soldiers? How is that possible? Surely the IN will need either amphib landing docks or landing ship tanks?

Well you did predict months back that Augusta Westland would take legal recourse if the GOI didn't follow the logical steps (which you then also spelled out). I guess more of our money will now go in this case.

rad said...

Hi Prasun
St Anthony has debared the helicopter company after taking delivery and paying millions. Who the hell is going to give spare parts to these helis? He has again debarred the barak sams , is he going to shoo off the c-802 s and harpoons and exocets fired on our warships, i think he will wave his mundu and try it.The lives of indian armed forces seem trivial in his life .

Mr. Ra 13 said...

They should substitute the blacklisting with severe financial implications.

Anonymous said...

Dear Prasun,

Greetings.. Is the army looking at 2S25 Sprut-SD for the hilly.They seem to be fixated with the weight of tanks(esp Arjun) & the spruts could be a viable solution

Looking forward to your reply.



Bhaswar said...

One last thing, Navantia states that its Athlas 26000 LHD can carry 1 LCAC and x (unspecified) numbers of AAV-7A1s, no definite statement as to whether it can even carry 2 LCACs (the one's designed by Textron).

Also given that China has gone ahead and invested in their own Type-071 amphibs it behooves us to think of our own amphibious platform dock at least, even if it be limited in terms of well-deck and hangar space such as the current Trenton we operate.

raw13 said...

Hello Prasun,

What do you make of this:

Are we seeing a shift in indian thinking?


RD said...

Surely not a good news to start with-

Previously the soltam & denel guns also have experienced such mishaps. What could be the possible reason for this- hot & humid environment, miscalculation or design defect by OFB.

If we licence produce M777 more than 1000 units then do we require another towed desi bofors. Apart from the fact M777 is light weight what are the differences when it comes to fire power & inflicting damage between M777 & bofors of same calibre.

Heberian said...

@raw13 :

Please ignore the comment from the Anon at 6:38 pm. We in India have many arm-chair patriots who dont know what it really means to be in a fight in icy cold heights, and will try to avoid paying any taxes where ever possible but are ever ready to advocate war. I am sure you have many similar ones back home :) I think its a South Asian genetic thing really :) :)

Bhadrakumar is a respected ex diplomat who is a pragmatist. Many in India know and recognize that it is essential for us to have a stable "humsaya", rather than a broken and desperate one. The only way we can bring our 500 million super poor brethren up in life is when we have a "humsaya" who is also focused on improving the lot of its citizens rather than thinking that TNW are the answers to all their real existential problems. So yes, if the Pakistani people can get safeguarded nuclear power, thats good! With electricity and stability and roti, kapda and makan... the people might realize that power actually does not flow through the gun as Mao said, but rather that it is good to be rich like Deng said. We should be trading with each other so much that we cannot afford a war to disrupt trading..

All we really want is a stop to terrorism and support for terrorism; and therefore are a lot of pragmatist thinkers here. Whether we can translate this thinking into national strategy and execute it even in a flawed manner, is another question all together.

I have done my bit for my country and yet the people I admire most are the late Deng Xioping and also Lee Kuan Yew ( I am not mentioning the late Narasimha Rao simply because of my next sentence). Now, I am pretty sure that in the eyes of some of my fellow citizens that makes me a "sino-paki" agent, whatever that means :)

Heberian said...

As for China's strategy for south Asia... I am pretty sure Pakistanis are very clearly aware that the "all weather friednship" is contingent on the need to keep India occupied in order to "win the war without fighting" as Sun Tzi once said.. however, since its of great benefit , I cant really blame Pakistan for taking full advantage of China's startegic need to keep India unbalanced..

So nuclear power, especially unsafeguarded from China.. no brainer really.

Gessler said...

Hi Prasun sir,

1) Can you reveal any more details that you know about the futuristic destroyer that you said DND was designing that's going to come after P-15B?

Like it's tonnage, size, basic shape, armament etc.?

2) How far has work on the 180-200MW PWR come?

3) Any word about IAC-2's basic design? We know that it will be CATOBAR, but do you have any idea how it's layout could be?

Similar to Gerald R. Ford or Charles De Gaulle, or a totally new look?

4) Is Indian Navy going to buy F-35? If yes, how many?

5) On a scale of 1 to 10, how much chance do you think is there for HAL to develop an LAH version of LCH?

6) It is said IN is going in to buy 4 new fleet replenishment ships. What are the contenders and which one has the best chance of securing the deal?

7) Is IN still interested in the 16 light corvettes it wanted to buy?

8) Has the Project-28A been approved? Is IN interested at all in these corvettes? Will P-28A be the same ASW-focused corvette that P-28 is or a guided missile corvette?

9) Any progress on MCWS gun, Nirbhay's 2nd test firing, or Akash Mk-2?

Very much thanks in advance.

Ankur said...

Prasun Ji ,

In this IDSA article the author writes - " In fact, several European and US aviation companies have R&D centres in India involved in high-end research projects."

However, fact remains that these R & D centers only carrys out some Computer Aided Designing work . Nothing that can be remotely considered hi tech .

Am I missing something .


Anonymous said...

Shubho Bijoya, Prasunda. You have earlier given a detailed description of the rescue operation of PLA during Sichuan earthquake. How does you rate the precautionary measures and rescue works done by several govt agencies and general public during recent cyclone Phailin? Would you please elaborate a better plan to address such a situation in a new thread? With regards....UJJWAL

raw13 said...

@Heberian, Thanks.

The way i see it, if there is to be any nuclear plant in the subcontinent, i would prefer it to be the best that the technology can provide. I don't care where is it actually situated (india, iran, bangladesh or pakistan). Becuase if there is an accident we all will get affected. What some people do not seem to understand that Nationalism does not make you or your children immune to your opponents radiation.

Problem is lot of people cannot see beyond their own noses. This is also the case with our respective leaders. I was wondering if this is beginning to change.

Anonymous said...


how come all of a sudden a venom spewing paki like you started behaving like a holy cow giving eternal milk? and u r chamcha supporters in the name of secularism?

just read about the islamic terrorism spreading in TN and kerala.
all they need is a good chunk of medicine at good dose, so that they understand what India means... just wait n watch..

Heberian said...

Anon@10:52 pm

Seriously, can you stop this diatribe? Do you think you appear as a more patriotic Indian?

I am from Kerala and a namboodiri (brahmin), and have served at the fronts. And yet, I love my holy cow on a plate, medium rare and with some mashed potatoes along with a glass of full bodied red wine.

So, are the likes of you going going to call me a "chamcha secular" "sino-paki agent" ? Do I have to drink some "gomutram" to prove my Indianness?

Have you ever thought about what you can do to ensure our muslim fellow-citizens feel more integrated with the rest of us?

Come on, if raw13 has a sensible dialogue here .. whats wrong with it? Does it merit nonsensical sarcasm and dim-witted hindutva tainted comments?

Heberian said...


True, whether nuclear plant accidents or nuclear weapons usage, the wind patterns in south Asia are such that all will suffer from fallout irrespective of nationality.

The Chinese are relatively safer thanks to the montains, but for our poor masses, more suffering will be guaranteed.

So yes, the answer to energy shortages is the latest and safest fully safeguarded nuclear power generation...

Anonymous said...

Hi Pprasun,
Is Pinaka operational now? How many units are in service ?
What is status of Vidhvansak? heard it is reject because of heavy weight

I read that India ordered 24 Harpoon missiles from US in 2008 or 2011 do you think they are sufficient in neutralizing the enemy forces ?
Thanks a ton,
Shiv Anand

Rupee-Man said...

Hi Prasun,

What is the fate of LCH??
As Rudra is inducted now its time for lch to clear FOC

Thanks a ton,
Shiv Anand

Rupee-Man said...

Hi Prasun,

Is army still using Plamya or bought any new grenade launchers??
Is DRDO developing any??? What is the fate of it?

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To BHASWAR: Of course it is doable, but not by the BRO, since the BRO does not have its own integral construction corps (pool of skilled personnel) like the PLA does, nor does the BRO possess the technology & equipment reqd for constructing tunneled-through roads across mountain ranges. It was the personnel of the PLA Construction Corps along with their armed guards that were spotted by India in Gilgit Baltistan after the devastating earthquake in that area in the previous decade as they were trying to repair the Karakoram Highway, & many in India then wrongly assumed & still do that China has a military presence in Gilgit-Baltistan. India-based private-sector road-/railway-builders can easily undertake such challenging construction projects throughout J & K, where the need of the hour is the construction of tunneled-through all-weather roadways & railways of the type present in TAR & Sichuan province in China & in Norway. Tunnel-boring machines reqd are the very same ones (from Bechtel Corp of the US) now being used for building tunnelled run-of-the-river water-channels in J & K & Uttarakhand & for underground drilling for the Chennai metro.
NAVANTIA has a range of LPH designs customised for each potential customer. For the IN, the LPHs won’t be used so much for ferrying armoured vehicles since the IN has LST-Ls at its disposal for such assignments. Therefore, four LCACs will easily fit in inside the LPH. As for new technologies on the LPHs, they have all been mentioned & explained at:

50-tonne ICV won’t be developed in-house since the timeframe to do so (6 years) is too small. Therefore, its design will be imported but its fabrication will be done locally. No one said all 15,000 SPB personnel will be qualified for expeditionary warfare. Only two brigades, numbering some 7,000 personnel, will be & of this, one brigade will be for marine amphibious assault & the other will be for vertical envelopment using NMRHs.

To RAD: Of course the lives of India’s armed forces are trivial for the Saint. Had this not been the case, then by now he would have at the very least paid a visit to the Army hospital in J & K where the IA’s wounded jawans are being treated. An like I had explained earlier, if it has been decided to unilaterally terminate the AW-101 procurement contract, then India will become the world’s laughing stock while AgustaWestland will have the last laugh by successfully suing the Govt of India for financial damages.

To Mr.RA 13: That is exactly what Taiwan successfully did after it won the arbitration suit against THALES of France. But for this to happen, the decision-makers of the aggrieved parties have to be sane & resort to logical reasoning—virtues that are not to be found among the average Indian governmental decision-maker & instead, needless emotions, sentiments & hype are the order of the day.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To RAW13: This, to me, is a non-story when viewed with Indian optics, since these two n-reactors will be for commercial generation & will be under full-scope IAEA safeguards just like the n-reactor at Chashma. The only unsafeguarded n-reactors of Pakistan are the four China-supplied units at Khushab. Consequently, India has no reason at all to object to this Karachi-based project, which, by the way, will be cost-prohibitive. Given the present-day state of Pakistan’s economy, a far more plausible project would have been the rejuvenation of the IPI gas pipeline project sometime in future, especially now that Iran is conducting meaningful negotiations with the US, EU & Russia under the IAEA’s auspices for a possible resolution of issues concerning its home-grown nuclear power generation/fuel reprocessing programmes & chances are that the economic sanctions against Iran will be lifted as a quid pro quo. AS for the safest n-reactor design, it is unquestionably the VVER-1000 LWR from Russia that is now in Kudankulam & which has also been ordered by Bangladesh. This design was the outgrowth of all the lessons learnt from the Chernobyl disaster & therefore features multiple safety-related redundancies of the kind not present in any other existing LWR design.

To RD: What’s so bad about it? After all, both the SOLTAM ATHOS-2052 & BAE Systems FH-77B05L52 too had shown similar deficiencies when test-fired at Pokhran in the previous decade. It is not a design or manufacturing defect for sure. Had it been, then the barrel would have exploded while being tested at Balasore’s PEE. Instead, all indications are that there was a premature explosion of the 155mm round within the barrel itself, meaning the fault lies with the round’s fuze. There’s no plan to licence-build 1,000 LW-155s since they will be ordered in limited numbers, i.e. no more than 180. The IA is very clear that it wants to induct in very large numbers only 155mm/52-cal howitzers & therefore, 39-cal or 45-cal howitzers won’t be procured in large numbers. Present plans call for equipping 79 regiments with 1,580 towed 155mm/52-cal howitzers, 49 regiments with 994 motorised 155mm/52-cal guns (mounted gun system), five regiments with 120 tracked 155mm/52-cal guns & 180 LW-155s for 10 regiments. LW-155 is indeed lightweight, but it is made largely from titanium alloy & is therefore far more expensive to produce.

To HEBERIAN: By the way, I’d like to share some data with you on an issue that I’m very passionate about:

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To GESSLER: 1) The only confirmed issues are all mentioned at:

In addition, it will have LR-SAMs, VLS for Nirbhay-type conventionally armed LACMs + integrated masts. Displacement will be the same as that of the P-15B DDG. 2) Still in the detailed design stage. 3) Still being conceptualised. 4) Of course not. There’s no need for it. The naval FGFA will be a far better choice. 5) Like I explained before, the LAH already exists. LAH & LCH are one & the same. In the IAF’s hands it will be known as LCH while in the AAC’s hands it will be called as LAH. The only outstanding matter is obtaining the green light from the MoD for the IA to order the LAH. If approval comes, then the Rudras on order can be used for armed LOH/LUH/CASEVAC while the LAH will assume the helicopter-gunship role. This then will but enough time for HAL to complete development of the single-engined RSH/LUH by late 2017. 6) Contenders are DCNS, Fincantieri, BAE Systems, NAVANTIA, Hyundai, TKMS & Rosoboronexport/United Shipbuilding Corp. Both Fincantieri & DCNS stand a good chance. 7) Of course. It is a confirmed programme. 8) There’s no project by that designation. 9) Nothing new. 10) By the way, SS-150 Prithvi liquid-fuelled NLOS-BSMs will in future be replaced on a one-to-one basis with solid-fuelled & cannister-encased Prithvi-3 NLOS-BSMs. In addition, the four Artillery Divisions (armed with Pinaka-1/2, Smerch-M, BrahMos-1 Blocks-2/3 & Prithvi-3) will in future come under the direct command of a to-be-raised Strategic Rocket Artillery Command (SRAC)—something similar to the PLA’s 2nd Artillery Corps—an IA HQ will also have a new Directorate of Rocket Artillery. But more about that will be spelt out by me in another dedicated thread. And also, on October 7, 2013, India’s Nuclear Command Authority, which meets twice every year, decided that India will not acquire any short-range nuclear-armed missile of any type, meaning that Prithvi-3 & Prahaar will be conventionally armed NLOS-BSMs after all as I had said all along (this also explains why the DRDO carried out two successive test-firings of the now-cancelled Prithvi-2 NLOS-BSM last week). In addition, in-principle approval was accorded at long-last for acquiring cannister-encased Shaurya nuclear-armed TBMs for replacing the Agni-1 TBMs.

To ANKUR: Not entirely true. For instance, the entire software for the IPMS on board the six MEKO 100RMN vessels was written by the Bengaluru-based facility of L-3 MAPPS.

To UJJWAL: Here’s something interesting on that topic:

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To SHIV ANAND: Pinaka-1 MBRL is already in service with the IA’s 41 ‘Agnibaaz’ Artillery Division’s 1880 Rocket Regiment & 42 Artillery Division’s 1890 Rocket Regiment. Another 2 regiments will be raised in future for the IA’s existing 40 Artillery Division & projected 43 Artillery Division. Each Pinaka-1 Regiment is equipped with 12 x TELs. 40, 41 & 42 Artillery Divisions also have the 333, 444 & 555 Missile Groups each armed with 60 SS-150 Prithvi liquid-fuelled NLOS-BSMs. These missiles will in future be replaced on a one-to-one basis with solid-fuelled & cannister-encased Prithvi-3 NLOS-BSMs. In addition, the four Artillery Divisions (armed with Pinaka-1/2, Smerch-M, BrahMos-1 Blocks-2/3 & Prithvi-3) will in future come under the direct command of a to-be-raised Strategic Rocket Artillery Command (SRAC)—something similar to the PLA’s 2nd Artillery Corps—an IA HQ will also have a new Directorate of Rocket Artillery. But more about that will be spelt out by me in another dedicated thread. And also, on October 7, 2013, India’s Nuclear Command Authority, which meets twice every year, decided that India will not acquire any short-range nuclear-armed missile of any type, meaning that Prithvi-3 & Prahaar will be conventionally armed NLOS-BSMs after all as I had said all along (this also explains why the DRDO carried out two successive test-firings of the now-cancelled Prithvi-2 NLOS-BSM last week). In addition, in-principle approval was accorded at long-last for acquiring cannister-encased Shaurya nuclear-armed TBMs for replacing the Agni-1 TBMs.
Vidhvansak’s 12.7mm AMR is already operational with IA & BSF, but its 20mm AMR version has been rejected for being too heavy. The 24 AGM-84L Harpoons are for the 10 Jaguar IMs of the IAF’s Jamnagar-based 6 ‘Dragons’ maritime strike sqn. They will be joined by MiG-29UPGs armed with Kh-35UE ASCMs of 28 First Supersonics sqn.
LCH is still undergoing certification-related test-flying & is therefore still in the prototype development phase & is nowhere near IOC. Rudra has not yet been inducted, only two have been delivered as prototypes to the AAC for certification-related test-flying. Only after conclusion of this phase will the certificate of airworthiness be issued by CEMILAC, following which series-production will get underway. IOC for Rudra is still another two years away & FOC will follow only by early 2017. The LCH programme will follow the same route. IA is still using the AGS-17 & AGS-30 AGLs.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Anon@10.52PM: Why this needless hostility? For all you know, RAW13 could well be your next-door neighbour having a laugh as a devil’s advocate. So, just chill out. Reminds me of an elderly well-meaning Pakistani person who was saying yesterday on a TV channel that Indians have today become as arrogant as the Pakistanis were till the early 1990s, while the Pakistanis today have become more accommodating like the Indians were till the late 1990s.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

The NSG on its raising day yesterday inducted into service the Renault-built Sherpa Light APC. Check these out:

Anonymous said...


You asked me why this needless hostility..

The reasons are:
(below are un-structured reasons, but will show why I have behaved like this)

1. In US a pastor did something to kuran and in TN nearly 20,000 muslims from all over TN protested in front of chennai US consulate and made a hue and cry and almost made chennai stand still for a day.
2. In TN these muslims killed 18 Hindu prominent people from Hindu orgs and BJP. The reason they said is they dont want to see Gujarat kind of things in TN and as a precaution they murdered 18 of us in just a month and still planning to kill more.
3. Kerala became a hidden Kashmir and is more dangerous because of the arab job connextions and arab money flowing into madrasas and they have started sharia law in kerala.
4. These muslims in TN and kerala are working for ISI for long time in the name of journalists, cardrivers, attendars etc.
5. A new wave of muslim training centres have been opearting in Kerala for a long time with the saudi and paki help. mUSLIM Politicians are openly supporting this and in some parts of kerala no offical can enter areas and can not question them.
6. They are getting job/education quotas while people performing better are not getting fairly treated in the name of secualrism and helping to bring them on par.
7. Haj subsidy?? what kind of country is ours to do this in the name of secularism? paying tax money for haj?
8. muslims in pakistan and india and in other muslim countries cry all the time saying muslims in india is not getting developed and not being put in hihgh positions..

why should this be? if they work hard they will have better life. but not because of they are getting a free pu$$y at an young age and started pumping piglets and we indians in the name of secualrism should feed them, offer them houses, education, jobs, haj quotas ???? at the expense of other down trodeen and destitute families of other religions??? what kind of law is this?
7. what they are practicing in pakistan? they killed all hindus and converted the little number of people there to islam. but here in india these muslims want full secularism.
8. when they are low in number they preach human rights, secularism.
when they grow in number they preach equal rights.
when they are majority they kill others
9. and in addition to all these these, muslims bring terrorism to india. now they even dont want anyone express our displeasure or pain openly. and if I do, you know these chamchas start crying...

indian 11 said...

sir ,
if i am right , u have previously stated that dhruv lch for the iaf is optimized for shooting down uavs & the like & that groundup the helo was built for iaf . for the aac lch wud need some redesigning of the stub wings to carry extra atgms..
pardon me if am wrong sir..
hope u'll clarify.

Bhaswar said...

Sir the well deck on the Athlas family cannot be enlarged beyond the 26000 variant- not even by doing away with the light or heavy vehicles hangar. That would require a fundamental redesign which the detailed cutaways of the various hangars and storage areas provided by Navantia show.

So more than 2 LCACs is not possible, and 2 LCACs is pretty much what a ship of that size can carry, more over 2 should be enough.

Why would we continue using LSTs, if so then WHAT IS THE WHOLE POINT Of acquiring HIGHLY EXPENSIVE LHDs? The whole point is to have beyond the horizon capability which the LST can never provide. So why will we NOT carry vehicles in the LHD. It defies all logic and sounds like something our MOD would cook up. The whole idea has been to utilize the range of the LCACs to transport heavy vehicles within a certain no. of sorties to the beach along with some troops while embedding more troops with the helos- all of this done from a good and safe distance. Any thing else would defeat the purpose of the LHD.

Sir if the design for the ICV is someone else's then we are talking of screw driver assembly. A foreign design cannot incorporate our suspension system, our optics- the OEM will try and fill it up with as much of its proprietary systems as possible, systems which we then at best assemble. THIS WILL KILL INDIGENOUS PRODUCTION, specially when an ICV is to be inducted in very large numbers. Here we are screaming that we will design nuke subs and nuke aircraft carriers- so then we should design the ICV- 6 years is a large enough period considering that unlike the Arjun no new ab initio component or tech development required- AMAP, Arjun's suspension, LRDE's optics, NAG- these are all already in hand.

Bhaswar said...

Also IF the IAC-2 is to be nuclear powered then how does the IFEP play into the IAC-2?

Also the PDV will have a dual seeker yes, an active radar and an IR, also it will have a kinetic kill vehicle- how did we develop a KKV? That's something which is rather advanced for us?

Bhaswar said...

Also if podded propulsion systems are not wanted then what happens to the azimuth thrusters? How will a Britsh IFEP be integrated into Navantia's Athlas? If the Mistral has a low chance due to this then so will the Athlas since it too uses the siemens azimuth thrusters and will require the same modifications as the Mistral. NO?

joydeep ghosh said...

@Prasun da

I have few points to make

1. you said to #ShivAnand, #Gessler 'in-principle approval was accorded at long-last for acquiring cannister-encased Shaurya nuclear-armed TBMs for replacing the Agni-1 TBMs.' but i think Agni 1 is mobile launched while Shaurya is cannistered silo launched so how can latter replace former when Agni 1 still has lot of life in it

2. You said to #Biswajit ' There are no plans to increase the Nirbhay’s range beyond 1,200km' but is that for land launch or sub launched version, i think the sub launched version should have a far greater range as its contemporaries like Tomahawks & others

3. You said to me 'any country transitioning from diesel-electric SSKs to nuclear-powered submarines has no choice but to reduce the number of SSKs in service while increasing the number of SSN, SSBNs & SSGNs. The US, Russia, France & the UK are living proof of such a trendset & India cannot be the global exception.' but they did so only bcoz they had enough diesel SSKs in hand to go for SSN,SSGN,SSBN but IN doesnt enjoy that luxury since by 2020 when 6th Scorpene rolls out 4 of 8 Kilo will retire and IN was supposed to have 30+ subs by 2030

4. Just learnt that LCA PV1 is being equipped with EW suit i think thats another step towards LIFT Tejas

Your views please


Joydeep Ghosh

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To INDIAN11: The stub-wings for LCH have already been redesigned & are on the LCH’s TD-2 platform.

To BHASWAR: Based on data available from NAVANTIA, the Canberra-class LPHs can easily accommodate four LCACs. There are quite a few navies that use LSTs despite having LPDs & LHDs. For the IN, the expeditionary war-waging capabilities are meant to be applied only within the IOR & therefore one cannot compare the IN’s reqmts with those of other navies that have a global presence. LPHs can carry their warloads in various configurations & there’s no one fixed configuration. The well-deck can either be stuffed with vehicles & infantry, or vehicles & LCACs, or LCACs only or vehicles only, depending on what’s reqd. Any indigenously designed FICV will be able to use only the vectronics suite developed for Arjun MBT. All the rest, like suspensions & other automotives & gun-control system will have to be designed & developed anew—something that time does not permit as it will take almost 15 years to develop all this. Indigenously available sub-systems can be applied with ease on a BMPT-2-type tank support vehicle, but not on the FICV. IFEP has nothing to do with nuclear propulsion. IFEP requires only electric power source. The IFEP is not British, but from GE of the US. For the PDV, even the development of sensor-fusion technologies using dual RF/IIR sensors is still quite a few years away. Initial test-firings of any missile are never fully-equipped with all sub-systems. Instead, incremental enhancements are introduced in a staggered manner.

To JOYDEEP GHOSH: 1) NONE of the existing operational nuclear-capable ballistic missiles owned by India are mobile-launched. All these missiles are stored in semi-assembled condition inside tunnels dug within mountains & will be fully assembled & mated with their warheads ONLY AFTER receiving authorisation from the NCA. And that’s the reason why the Agni-1/Agni-2 are not cannister-encased. After they’re fully assembled, these missiles—mounted on TELs mounted on a railway track measuring not more than 80 metres in length—will be towed out of the tunnel & then launched. It’s the very same architecture that one sees on Wheeler Island everytime a ballistic missile is test-fired from there. Cannister-encased Shaurya is NOT silo-launched. The cannister is mounted atop a BEML/TATRA 8 x 8 & this version was shown in the Republic day Parade of 2010 & also at DEFEXPO 2010. Several photos of it on display in this configuration are available. 2) Again, it will be a fallacy to compare India-developed family of cruise missiles with those of the US, which has global power projection demands & reqmts. India’s power projection demands/reqmts are theatre-based within a particular region. 3) Force-matrix restructuring is a gradual process & is never attempted in a sequential manner, but in a concurrent manner. None of the 8 existing Type 877EKM SSKs will retire by 2020. Instead, they will serve for another 15 years at the very least since their 2nd stepped life-extension programme’s schedule is now being worked out. 4) Looks like it. Hope it happens ASAP.

Bhaswar said...

YES but you've mentioned ( ) that the IAC-2 will have the IFEP, ergo the question- is it going to be nuclear or conventional?

So basically we remove the heavy vehicles bay and instead enlarge the Well-deck? Without enlarging the well deck there is no way that 4 LCACs can be fitted in. Even within the IOR we will face significant threats since any island nation which takes up arms against us will do so under the aegis of China and ergo have access to area and sea denial weapons- then what? We should keep the heavy vehicles bay and make do with 2 LCACs, when even the Australians/French/Spaniards are going with that then why not us? Otherwise might as well look for a larger design- perhaps Flight 2 of the America class with a well deck?
Or are we going to reduce the capacity of the heavy vehicles bay only to be able to embed troops without adequate armor or firepower while our LSTs will have to contend with whatever defenses China can hand over to whichever pipsqueak island which wants to prove to the world that India is and remains a push over? We will then have to either have attack helos with longer ranges and fixed wing fighters to take care of such defenses- which means one of our ACs will have to contend with that job.

How far off are we from the dual sensor for the PDV, it is a dual sensor, no? And how far off are we from a KKV- the PDV will most definitely employ a KKV, yes? If these systems are absent then what exactly are we going to test in the up-coming test- the design of the interceptor and a higher grade of solid fuel- that's it?

3rd ~ EyE said...

why Renault ACP Sherpa ??? cant indian TATAs or Mahindras produce equivalents ?

Bhaswar said...

In fact quite a lot of the trends in amphib warfare have been enumerated in this article-

In fact island nations are the premier candidates for acquiring fast attack crafts with anti-ship missiles. While our force projection needs may be different- many of the foes we may face are not. After all a couple of FACs could wreak havoc on our LSTs, specially since we do not actually have littoral combat ships. Even the USMC has been very worried about ASM equipped FACs attacking their ships and have ergo made it clear that they prefer to operate farther from enemy shores. Which makes sense, tomorrow if the Maldives decides to actually host a full fledged Chinese sub base or worse then there is nothing stopping them from acquiring said FACs. How do you foresee us contending with that with LSTs which will have to get dangerously close to the shore and within the range of said FACs.

raw13 said...

@Anon 10:52pm

This article and the comments made by your National Security Advisor Shivshankar Menon will anwser your questions:

If you want muslims to feel proud to be indians make them your own. Don't make them feel like aliens.In my experience most of the causes of hatred have some form of economic reason behind it and we will use the easist option to brow beat our opponent. Be it religion, regional, caste, clan, tribe, family, etc...its so easy!!! Then you complain that they are not good indians :-) wakeup and smell the coffee.



Any idea on how many Sherpa trucks the NSG got or orderd?

Also any word on if the SPG ordered such trucks as they were said to be pushing for these trucks last year:

ALso talking about the Indian Navy, when will they be ordering their S-70Bs that are obviously DESPERATLY needed?

Anonymous said...

Is it ture, that 5 tanks were destroyed:

The IA seems to be getting more capable every the day. See some of the comments.

Bhaswar said...

@Anon @4:45 P.M.:- the article says that 5 tanks were DEPLOYED, not "destroyed".

lachit said...

"In my experience most of the causes of hatred have some form of economic reason behind it and we will use the easist option to brow beat our opponent."

in my years of interaction this is the first time time i have come across a Pakistani (if ur one)who has hit the golden TRUTH .
now all that pakistan has to do is to stop riding the islam bogey and realize that religion is a personal mandate only

as for the pseudo secularist in india, hinduism is secular in itself. brush up your history
if u dont know.if there is evidence to the contrary then it is simply due to the inherent instinct to survive and live under wholesale onslaught.

regretfully few hindus realise the essence of hindiuism that is simply
put KARMA->DHARMA->MOKSHA that too on a individual basis. success or failure is not important but the effort is everything without expecting anything not deserving.

Ankur said...

Prasun Ji ,

Thanks for throwing light on the ork done by Bangalore office of L3 MAAPS.

Will you agree with me that this is just an isolated case ?

I know that most US or European companies that have India offices spend 90 % of their time in either Computer Aided Designing or fixing bugs in softwares .

The skills required for example designing a software package for the electronic suit of an aircraft like DASS just don't exist in India.

Your views please.

Many Thanks

Heberian said...

@ Prasun :

Thank you very much for sharing these articles. I am very passionate about this topic as well and dream of the day when our people fix these basic needs without divisive small mindedness. Thing is, I feel extremely helpless, and at times in a defeatist mode feel that I should try and numb myself to this terrible anomaly we remain in the 21st century.

The statistics at the end of the "The throneless" article are so telling and so so sad. The article about the "rebel women" was heart warming... I wish more Bollywood folks would popularize these developmental notions..

@ lachit:

Thank you for speaking up for sensible Indians by highlighting what Sanatanadharma really means.

And speaking up for raw13 (irrespective of his/her nationality)... there are actually many Pakistanis who think on similar terms, even given the fictional history they have been taught since childhood. More and more accept that they are South ASian rather than Arab or Persian as the myths tell them.

I recommend reading Nadeem Paracha and Cyrus Almeida's articles in the Dawn.

@ Anon whose patriotism was so hurt by raw13:

Read the articles on the links Prasun posted, and maybe your patriotism might rework its priorities on what should hurt it.

Is our inability to take care of basic sanitation and hygiene for our countrymen less important than our perceived religious differences?


Vikram Guha said...

Prasun Da ,

A good read :

One important thing that C.Raja Mohan says is that as Pakistan receives more help from China in the nuclear field the more aggressive stand it will adopt against India .


Iceman said...

1.Previously you have mentioned that MAWS,EW suite on the FGFA will be developed by it being developed with the colloboration from the Israelis?
2.what will be the EO suite in the FGFA? it true that some R&D related work for AMCA is going silently in DRDO's labs?
4.will arjun mk2 be armed with RCWS?
5.will IAF's next 2 Phalcon AWACS be based on il-476?
6.can indo-russian MRTA can be developed into a platform like P8 poseidon?
7.WILL ACTAS sonar be a standard towed array sonar for all Indian navy warships and submarines? it true that Indian navy is interested in 150km DM2A4 torpedo?
9.what about the status of TAL torpedo?is it too being rejected by the Indian navy?

Anonymous said...


Those are very different things.
When am talking about my country I talk about all the issues my country is facing and in this instance toilets, and in some other instances road safety, basic infra etc etc.

Since we have issues in our country does that mean that I should not express my pain in some way or the other way on some other matter??

Do you think I have a lavish life from day 1 in my life? I too was from a village and for the first 20 years of life we do not have toilet in my house in my village. So due to this should I stop talking about how my Indians and India is being bleed by muslims (either Indian, pakis or arabs [through funding])??

You (Heberin), lachit and Prasun have directly accepted that @raw13 could well be an Indian. Wether Indian or paki, he is a muslim, and he wants us/India to bleed (He said himself this while answering me by saying he uses the easiest path to do this [how ever low the path might be, how unethical it could be, a typical of them]).

Anyways, I dont want to post anything more here, as I see this blog as a strategic one and dont want others to come and start this kind of discussion, including me.

I would like to remind some quotes;

"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits"


“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience"

Anonymous said...

Hi Raw13,
You said "If you want muslims to feel proud to be indians make them your own. Don't make them feel like aliens.In my experience most of the causes of hatred have some form of economic reason behind it and we will use the easist option to brow beat our opponent."
You are partially correct about Indian Muslims. But what about Muslims in Kerala? In Kerala there is no BJP (not even won a single seat). Hindus are divided thanks to Communists and Congress. Muslims are around 25% of Kerala population. In Malapuram Dist alone, the Muslim population is 90%. Muslims in Kerala are the richest, thanks to Gulf money and Black money.

Muslims in Kerala were much better than the Christians. But in the last 25 years things have changed in Muslim community. Many Muslims who work in Gulf countries come back to Kerala with the strict form of Islam. In my childhood, I used to live near to Malapuram. I hardly saw a Muslim woman in black paurdah. But if one visit Malapuram, it is totally different. Only blacks.

Some of my Muslim friends changed too. One of them even said "he is different from Hindus, and Indians...." He stopped coming to annual gathering of my batch mates. He changed completely, married with 3 women, and growing big beard and giving sermons. He is just an example I have seen with my own eyes. Another neighbor stopped her 2nd daughter to play for the Indian Handball/Volleyball team because her 1st daughter's husband a Mullah said, "Muslim girls should not play sports, it is against Islam." Another Muslim friend stopped going to Mosque because of the anti-national sermons given by the Mullah and Arabs. He is an exception.

Kerala has always been good to Muslims. When Portuguese came to Kerala, they wanted to expel Arab merchants from Kozhikode. But the king refused saying Arabs have been guests for a long time. Had he expelled the Arabs for the richness offered by Portuguese, there were no Muslims in Kerala today.
Now Muslims are the richest people in Kerala, Hindus being the 3rd. Today they rule Kerala, they have reservations for jobs and education, they own more land, etc. But at the same time, they follow totally different version of Islam practiced by their forefathers. Some of them fight against the nation, they plan terrorist strikes in other cities. In the last 5-7 years for every terrorist strikes in India, one can find a link to Kerala Muslims.

In short I wanted to say that, economy alone makes one society to be part with the rest of the nation. They should think that they are first of all Indians and totally different from Muslims in Arabs. Do not mix the faith with the nationality. And do what is good for the country and then associate with the Nation.

RR Nair

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To BHASWAR: IAC-2 will be nuclear-powered. Within the IOR, India will never ever face any conventional threat from any of the island-nations. The question of China moving into the IOR never arises since the US won’t allow this to happen for as long as there are US military bases at Diego Garcia & in future the Gan islands. Dual-sensor for PDV is still being researched upon. It has not even entered the prototype fabrication phase.

To 3rd EYE: Why not? TATA & Mahindra & Ashok Leyland can licence-produce them & customise them, but can’t design or develop them within the required timeframe.

To TRUTHSEEKER: 12 units in all: 6 for the NCR & the rest to be distributed among the various regional NSG hubs. SPG has already ordered them as well. But procuring them for providing SPG security for Sonia Gandhi or Rahul Gandhi makes no sense at all since they’re ordinary citizens & are not part of the Govt of India & consequently they don’t deserve SPG protection from a legal standpoint. Their proximate security reqmts should be met by non-governmental agencies/entities. If they’re being provided with SPG proximate security protection 24/7 then it’s a clear violation of the law.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To LACHIT: Mindsets take generations to change. As you rightly pointed out, economic deprivation always inevitably leads to societal alienation & consequently, recourse to hatred becomes a viable option for those whose thresholds of tolerance have been breached. The problem with states founded on the basis of religious ideology (like Pakistan & Sudan) is that they’re predisposed to self-destruction, meaning any religion (which is an universal brotherhood) is forcibly straitjacketed to fit the whims & fancies of the day & thus ideologies like ‘political Islamism’ are born. In Pakistan, therefore, for instance, while it is Islam that brought the Muslims together, it is Islamism that is fragmenting communities & societies & consequently, the average citizen of that country is first & foremost a Muslim & only after that is a citizen of Pakistan, meaning the citizen’s first allegiance is to a theocratic religious philosophy, followed by allegiance to his/her country. In secular countries like India, exactly the opposite holds true since the idea of being Indian is far greater than the thought of being a non-Muslim Indian or Muslim-Indian. In case you’re interested in learning more about the rising number of faultlines within Pakistan that could well cause that country to implode some day, I would recommend you the following televised debates in which leading Pakistani luminaries, politicians & academicians recently exposed such faultlines:

In essence, every religion is secular. It is only when they’re used for political ends that the philosophy of any universal brotherhood gets oversimplified & this in turn creates theocratic mayhem & finally it turns into a rat-race for securing ultimate political power & mental domination, & this is exactly what has been happening in Pakistan since its birth.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To ANKUR: Most of the India-based foreign R & D centres, like those of SAAB & EADS/Cassidian, are established or takeoff ONLY AFTER winning significant procurement contracts. In such ventures, there is always an Indian partner like some lab of DRDO that then begins to undertake R & D on customised solutions. Mind you, I’m referring to solutions like an integrated EW suite, which involves only systems installation & systems integration. The core R & D reqd for developing the critical sub-systems like RWR, LWR & MAWS is never undertaken within India since such sub-systems in a fully developed state have already been selected by India’s armed forces for incorporation & will therefore only be licence-assembled as per the direct industrial offset commitments.

To VIKRAM GUHA: I have a slightly different take on this piece. For instance, after inking the 1-2-3 deal with the US, India secured access to natural uranium & enriched uranium supplies for those of her PHWRs & LWRs that were fuel-starved. The priority was always to secure such fuel supplies, & not to embark on a buying spree of foreign-design LWRs. Secondly, the LWRs that Pakistan will received from China will be of an obsolete design & ultimately will end up as a grave financial liability for Pakistan. Thirdly, at most, China will only be able to lease a nuclear-powered SSN to Pakistan, & not sell it since the NPT expressly forbids it.

By the way, here’s another interesting read:

To ICEMAN: 1) No. But with SAABTech & EADS/Cassidian. The same package destined for the Super Su-30MKI will also go on the FGFA. 2) Already uploaded its photos last August in the MASKS 2013 thread. 3) Why silently? Whatever is destined to go on board the FGFA will also find application on the AMCA IF AT ALL the IAF or IN wants the AMCA. Right now, none of the two have voiced any official support for the AMCA. 4) Both Arjun Mk1A & Arjun Mk2 will have RCWS. 5) Yes. 6) Of course. 7) Only warships, not submarines, since the IN has not yet procured thin-line towed-arrays for its SSKs. 8) That’s the only torpedo that’s available for the Scorpenes & P-15A DDG, since the Black Shark is more expensive & the Varunastra remains unavailable. 9) No. It is being supplied by BDL to the IN.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To HEBERIAN & R R NAIR: VMT for your insightful analysis of developments within Kerala. In fact, your impressions & views have been echoed in an article in the latest issue of THE WEEK magazine, where there is a 2-page article on what’s been going on in Kannur. In fact, on October 4, 2008 when an Indian Army patrol team bumped off four militants in the Lolab forest in J & K Kupwara sector, it was discovered that all four slain militants hailed from Kerala & two were from Kannur. It is today a fact of life that in Kerala & also in places like Mangalore, religious dogma has served to produce demagogues like the local Muftis & Maulvis who are by & large (if not all of them) totally uncontrollable when it comes to giving the weekly Khutbas (sermons) every Friday afternoon. It is these sermons that primarily tend to brainwash the gullible among the audience & many a time these Muftis & Maulvis brazenly issue fatwas that are spectacularly outrageous, to say the very least. Matters will only get far worse (just like what’s happening inside Pakistan today) unless & until the Indian State intervenes decisively to ban such practices & ensure without fail that the only entity that ought to enjoy a monopoly of violent force application is the Indian State, & no one else. This is exactly how matters are kept under strict control in the Arab sheikhdoms, In Yemen & also in the Central Asian Republics & that’s why there’s no widespread civilian unrest or mayhem, since all the troublemakers from these countries have either fled by themselves or have been banished & most of them have found shelter in Pakistan’s FATA region.

On a slightly different note, let me share an anecdote with you all about what I learnt from some Qatari officials (including one who had negotiated the sale of Qatar’s Mirage 2000s to the IAF) during a recently held regional security seminar at Doha. I was told that all the GCC countries tend to shy away from hiring Pakistani technocrats for their armed forces because these technocrats always inevitably, especially on Fridays, get themselves involved in heated arguments with their local Arab counterparts on conflicting interpretations of Islam & tend to be rather self-righteous about it, meaning the Pakistani interpretation of Islam is superior to those of other Muslims elsewhere, reportedly because the first landmass to embrace Islam after the Arabian peninsula was present-day Pakistan’s Singh province!

Vikram Guha said...

Prasun Da ,

Thanks for the link . What's surprising is that a pseudo secular newspaper like Indian Express decided to publish the news of Hindus getting massacred.

On another note in reply to a question about the MAWS,EW suite on the FGFA you wrote that SAABTech & EADS/Cassidian is helping in the development of it .

Isn't this a security risk ? SAABTech & EADS/Cassidian can versy easily pass on these details to Western Govts. ? Then all that will be required is a piece of malware to be introduced into the EW suite and it's curtains for the Super 30 or the FGFA .

EADS/Cassidian are run by a bunch of unscrupulous mercenaries who will stoop to any level.


Bhaswar said...

It wouldn't be wise for us to assume that the US will be there balancing China everywhere for long, nor should we depend on them for this lest we wish to become one of their protectorates. At the end of the day even with provisions for MR-SAMs and RAM the San antonio amphibs were judged to be incapable of surviving in a hostile environment by the users. Any Amphib we buy today or build is going to have to serve for a long time and we had best ensure that ergo it is future proofed. Not to mention that the US cannot do squat diddle if China decides to sell some islands some CMs or ASMs, we've seen exactly how good they are with that.

So basically the ICV won't be ours, the battle taxis won't be ours- thats what, 3000-4000 vehicles in all and we are going to pay through our teeth for them while enriching some firang when we can do it ourselves if we wait- China happily waits and even inducts less than satisfactory systems no matter what threat they may be facing at that point of time- that's how they got where they are today, I guess we Indians just don't measure up against them.

So what do we do about Kerala then? Wait till it becomes another waziristan?

joydeep ghosh said...

@Prasun da

What you said to #Heberian, #Nair,#lachit holds good only if it is heard, for the deafs it means nothing

Regarding the replies you gave, i remember you did say (dont remember to whom) Shaurya missile silo need to be built on the border for them to be deployed in large numbers thats why i said Shaurya missile is silo launched

Regarding SLEP of 8 Kilo SSKs i think its a bad idea to spend close to Rs 5000 crores for something that wont help India in gaining expertise, instead that money can spent to build more Scorpenes over and above 6+3/4 to be ordered


Better still invest that money to indianize the SMX 21 concept which i think with AIP & VLS modules will answer a lot of INs answer for underwater detterence with its 'plug & fight' ability till we start getting SSN, SSBN & SSGN in required numbers

What you said to #VikramGuha about China giving SSN to PN worries me as i think that will give them the wrong notion that they can 'ungli' us, remember the high sea incident when a PN ship hit IN ship video of which was shown everywhere

For sake of argument if lets say adding VLS modules for land attack missile makes no sense then AIP also makes no sense as even if it increases endurance it cuts sub speed drastically

You are not in favor of VLS for SSKs so do you think Torpedo Tube launched land attack missile is a better option, will anyone sell those to IN. I still favor land attack missile capability for SSKs bcoz if these subs are not that powerful they wont deter our adversaries or for that matter wont make sense to send them on deep sea regular patrol that job can be done by SSNs, SSBNs, SSGNs

BTW any news of Pinaka2 or its naval version or the 120 km rocket


Joydeep Ghosh

Anonymous said...

Prasun da,
PAK FA mtow is given as 37 tonnes and empty weight of 18.5T while HAL website earlier gave as 34T i.e, weight reduction of 3T so that empty weight of 15.5T can be estimated. Reports give that this is due to new full composite wing and composite appendages for FGFA as compared to PAKFA. Why would the Russions don't go for more composites on PAKFA?

joydeep ghosh said...

@Prasun da

sorry for this late addition

as per you which propulsion is better COGAG, CODAG, CODAD, CODOG for naval ships

India is developing Brahmos 2 hypersonic missile, is that effort worth it

Anonymous said...

Please read:

Pallavan said...

I just can't believe my eyes when I read about Kerala! I always thought it was a Christian dominant state, very peaceful and perhaps the only place in India where I could holiday without the fear of terror campaigns! My memories of Kerala in the late 80s is still vivid when I visited there - so impressive. It is a shame if this scourge of so called Islamism is wrecking havoc there. The fact more Muslims kill Muslims should be a wake up call to the ordinary people to shove up something "there" when the mullahs bend over! Sadly that religion has become so dangerous it is about time governments around the world start counter terror and heavy suppression like Saddam Hussein. In Australia there are so many venomous snakes that look alike that often to survive you just have to kill a snake which might be not so venomous but when they are close to you in the yard around pets and children you have to put survival first. Likewise no one knows which Muslim leader is genuine - which one isn't so to prevent muslims themselves from such rogue viruses I see no problem in a heavy handed tactics to weed out any moron that makes religion a divisive subject - sure that would apply to any Hindu too but by and large the statistics worldwide suggests it is more likely to be hit by an Islamic bomb than any other. I write this with a heavy heart but it just seems no matter how peaceful it claims Islam just can't keep a lid on its radicals.

Anonymous said...

Prassun you deleted my comments? I had kept you in high regards.
And isnt Israel another ideological state besides sudan and pak ?

Subir said...

Sir, 1.What's the problems that have recently cropped up in Fgfa negotiations ? Resolving this issue is being said to be one of the main agendas of RM when he visits next month. Is there any serious indifference between Mod and Russian authorities?

2.How close is IN to signing the 2nd Slep contract of 8 Kilo class Ssk? Will it be signed this fiscal ?
Which new sonar complex and Esm lare they going to get.

3. Besides being used as a training platform for Arihant class of what use will be the to be leased 2nd Akula ssgn?

4.will any inservice RuN Kilo class ssk br leased or bought to maintain the depleting undersea warfare capabilities.

5.Is Wass Black shark better in performance and sonar sensitivity than Seahake mod4ER? Is there any particular reason behind it being more expensive.

6. If seahake had been bought for Scorpene ssk there wouldn't have been any need for 50 km range exocets owing to its 100+ km range at good speeds.

7. How many atgms can the redesigned and restrengthened stub wings of LCH carry ? U were once saying for converting Lch to Lah the optronic turret needs to be rotor hub mounted and a millimetric wave radar needed to be installed on the turret.

8.What do you think about retaining the Mig-21Bison fleet uptill 2025? Is it a well thought move .

9.What defense contracts are going to be signed during Rm's 15 Nov visit?

10. Way back u had said that IAF was doing its homework well on Cmd. Uptill now with the implementation of various phases of IACCCS , the early warning ,timely detection amd tracking assets are in place. What about the interception elements? When are they going to be acquired? Although we won't face any high flying bomber threats like B-52 or Tu-16 won't acquiring S-400 take care of most of the challenging threats. 200 km 40N6E ,48N6 can neutralise Nlos-bsm,Tbm , and upto mrbm level threats. Pac-3mse type 98N6E and E2 hit to kill can deal with lacm,alcm and even nlos bsm and tbm. You can pack 16 of them per Tel. With Pakistan uping the ante on Tnw equipped Babur and Hatf-9 ,s400 level sams are required. S-400 with its vaous sam options offers greater flexibility and sanitises a larger volume of airspace than Barak-8Er .S400 batteries can offer vital anti ck and nloabsm,tbm,heavy mbrl protection to critical IA and Iaf installations close to IB and Ne airbases against massed Pla fireassaults and cruise missile raids of plaaf. Early warning can be provided by El/m-2083 airstars. Right now almost all IAf bases and IA garrisons,C3,pol dumps and ordance depots in Northern and North west sectors are unprotected and thus heavily vulnerable to Babur ,Raad,H-4 and Tbm strikes frok PA and PAF and both of them will resort to these in the opening phases of any hostilities with us. Thus there's an immediate need of Lrsams like S400.

Subir said...

11. Uptill now all ceasefire violations,cross firings were concentrated along LoC . Why had this violation disease all of a sudden spread to IB in Kashmir ? Is there any higher motive behind all this? When are we going to return them the same with interests or are we just going to sit back and watch as we had always done for a decade now.

12. Will 8 minesweeper be adequate for replacing the fleet of 12 Pondicherry class of Soviet origin ?

13. Why won't the upgraded Bmp-2 stand a chance in a limited high intensity conflict? After application of composite armour slabs they will well be able to withstand 20 mm shots. They won't spearhead and be the vanguard elements but will act as battle taxis and follow the mbts after the critical breakout.As such they are unlikely to face Mbt and even if they meet so they can outrange the Type85 Al-Khalid,Type 96 and 98 with the 4km range Konkurs M. Those mbt's cannon rounds,heat won't reach 4 km.

14. And what happened to IA plans for procuring Bmp-3 for accompanying Arjun regiments. And what's the harm in acquiring heavy weight well protected IFV like Cv-90 ,Rheinmetall puma. They provide much superior inmate protection than what Bmp-2 will be able to achieve after the uparmouring.

DefenseandAerospace said...

Prasun ,

According to this report

the Indian Air Force is not happy with its share of work in the FGFA project .

This report says that though India is investing 50 per cent of the cost its work share in the research and development and other aspects of the programme at the moment is only around 15 % .

That raises an important question.

Did India sign this deal with it's eyes wide shut ?


Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To VIKRAM GUHA: Such fears are mis-placed, since the alhorithms will be proprietary Indian data along with the source-codes. Therefore, chances of any malware being introduced are next to impossible.

To BHASWAR: That’s like assuming that India would one day in the future have to face an aerial onslaught from USAF B-2s! China did try to get access to some of the Maldivian islands, but was unsuccessful since the US & UK stepped in & won the battle by securing access to Gan Island. And that’s what had caused all the domestic political uproar last year & earlier this year within Maldives. Globally, R & D effort of ICVs always begins either concurrently with that of a new-generation MBT, or follows that of the MBT. Had India seriously wanted to develop her own indigenous FICV, then R & D work on this should have begun in the 1990s itself. And it did, when work on the Abhay FICV began. But the Abhay’s deficiencies were apparent by the late 1990s, despite having sizeable import content & it had become just a rejigged BMP-2. Consequently, the ONLY viable solution now is to upgrade the BMP-2s as battle-taxis, & concurrently develop a ‘desi’ BMPT-2 as a ‘Tank Support Armoured Vehicle’ whose main job will be to protect the MBT from hostile dug-in infantry forces armed with RPGs, LAWs & manportable ATGMs. If this happens, then there will be adequate time to evaluate & select a 50-tonne FICV of foreign origin & then customise it with sizeable Indian industrial inputs, particularly in the area of vectronics.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To JOYDEEP GHOSH: I was referring to ‘missile-storage silos’ inside mountain ranges in J & K, Sikkim & Arunachal Pradesh that would store the TELs housing the cannister-encased Shaurya, & not missile-launch silos. SLEP-2 for the 8 Type 877EKM won’t cost that much, since it does not involve total hull refurbishment, which is reqd only once every 20 years. Instead, only selective upgrades will be introduced, like new periscopes & mast-mounted sensors from L-3 KEO. Of course, it will always make more sense to increase the order for Scorpene SSKs from the present 6 to 12 in case quick solutions are reqd. If so, then acquiring the SMX-21 does not make sense anymore. Stirling Engine-based AIP module can easily be integrated with the Scorpene’s hull with minimal risk, while L& T can well be tasked to develop customised dual-use torpedo launch-tubes capable of launching both heavyweight torpedoes & Nirbhay-type LACMs/ASCMs. Pinaka-2 is still in the technology demonstration phase & its user-trials have yet to commence, since its 8 x 8 wheeled TEL has yet to be selected & presently Ashok Leyland’s Super Stallion is the frontrunner. There’s no such thing as a naval Pinaka as yet. What I had stated above regarding this version of the MBRL was my own idea, not that of the IN as yet. 120km-range of Pinaka won’t be developed, since Russia teamed up with OFB has already begun work on developing a 120km-range version of Smerch-M. COGAG is today the globally preferred option. BrahMos-2 is definitely a viable option from a techno-economic matrix.

To Anon@10.54AM: Russians have traditionally preferred titanium-alloy over all-composite materials, since it is cheaper for Russia to produce titanium in large quantities on an industrial-scale. For India, on the other hand, titanium is an expensive metal to obtain & resorting to large-scale usage of composites-made airframe structures works out to be a lot more cheaper.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Anon@12.12PM: They were deleted due to the presence of the ‘Anonymous’ handle, nothing personal. Israel is an ideological state, but with a secular character & constitution where ‘political judaism’ has no role to play in the affairs of the state & therefore that country’s Christian & Muslim citizens have equal rights & privileges.

To SUBIR: Am not aware of any such problems. 2) The SLEP-2 will begin by late 2015 as it is not reqd before that. Sonar will be a low-frequency version of USHUS, while ESM suite will be imported from France or Germany. 3) Am not aware of any such development. 4) No. 5) No. 6) Not true. Different weapons have different capabilities. 7) 8. Miniature MMW radars are now available that can be located atop the stub-wings & this will prevent the need for radically re-engineering the LCH’s airframe & will thus save time & money. 8) This will only result in more fatal air-crashes. 9) None. 10) How can LR-SAMs ever intercept cruise missiles??? Neither Babur nor Nasr/Hatf-9 nor Ra’ad ALCM are TNW-armed. They’re described as being only ‘nuclear-capable’, just as SS-150 Prithvi-1 is also ‘nuclear-capable’ but is not & was never nuclear-armed. NLOS-BSMs that India has to counter can easily be intercepted by Barak-2, while cruise missiles can be intercepted by SR-SAM-type/SpyDer-SR-type SHORADS. For intercepting TBMs & longer-range NLOS-BSMs the AD-1/AD-2 are being developed. There’s no immediate need for any imported LR-SAM because Pakistan for the next 15 years at the very least will be involved in fighting counter-insurgency campaigns, while China will be deeply involved with internal economic restructuring over the next five years.

Bhaswar said...

So we are stuck, that seems bad? Foreign import, again!

What sort of progress has occurred on the follow on SSBN font, you had stated that the Russian's would be the ones who will help again- only this time the reactor will be completely ours along with its safety features and control systems. yes? As in we will own the IP/IR of the naval reactor for the new SSBN? What will be design share between us and the Russians- or are they passing on some old decrepit design to us? How would you compare the current Arihant reactor to the Russian and Chinese one's in terms of quality control in manufacturing?

What happened to Pinaka-2 though, didn't you say it was test fired recently? Have we provided INS/GPS guidance for our pinaka-1 rockets yet, long back the Israelis were apparently helping us with that, if not will the 2nd variant make use of that? What's the difference between the two?

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To PALLAVAN: Problem was never with any religious philosophy, be it Islam or anything else. Problem has always been with the varying interpretations of such religious philosophies given out by mortal human beings of dubious reputation & with ulterior motives & hailing from both Sunni & Shia sects. The other sects of Islam have never produced any demagogues & have happily co-existed. And as I had explained a few hours earlier, only the State can clamp down decisively against those weekly Friday sermons that propagate hate & incite communal violence of the type witnessed recently in UP & last year in Mumbai. If all the Arab Sheikhdoms & Central Asian Republics can enforce such regulations with all means at their disposal, I see no reason why India cannot & should not.

To DEFENSE & AEROSPACE: This is a typical example of a ‘desi’ journalist being too lazy to do adequate research on the subject-matter & therefore jumping to ill-conceived conclusions with an erroneous & mischievous news-headline. For instance, all that the IAF has flagged is the need to have more focussed quantum of India-origin R & D solutions & innovations. What this means is that Russia cannot be faulted if India’s R & D agencies & military-industrial entities fail to meet the required/mandated 35% quantum of effort. Presently, while HAL is involved with design & development of an FGFA airframe most of whose skin will be built with composites, the DRDO’s DARE will customise the integrated EW suite (inclusive of the multi-sensor warning system or MSWS) for the FGFA’s airframe, since this suite will be an offshoot of that being developed for the Super Su-30MKI. Then there’s the OBOGS on-board oxygen generation system that L & T has already built for the Tejas Mk1 & Su-30MKI & which will be customised to go on board the FGFA, while the HAL-developed GTSU-127 turbine jet-fuel starter for the Tejas Mk2 MRCA will be customised for installation on the FGFA. The HAL-Edgewood JV’s mission computer too will go on-board, as will the digital flight-control computers & digital air-data computers. Carbon-carbon brake-pads for the landing gear & pilot’s protective clothing & survival kit too will be indigenous, as will the VHF/UHF radios, two-way operational data-links with built in encryption/secrecy features, cockpit emergency audio warning generator & the mission-planning system. As for the rest, like electro-hydraulic actuators, accessories, distributed-architecture AESA-MMR, air-data sensors, dual IRST sensors, weapons-launch pylons & their interface boxes, HMDS, LDP, emergency personal locator beacon, canopy severance system, rangeless ACMI pods & the all-important AL-41F turbofan will have be of imported origin.
Additional Indian R & D/industrial contribution can be made (although not yet formalised) in areas like flight simulator/tactical mission trainer development, & development of the FGFA’s maintenance simulator—areas where ADA & ADE are still lagging behind even with regard to the Tejas Mk1 MRCA project.

To BHASWAR: The S-5/S-6/S-7 SSBN project is still a long way away & the hull-design won’t exactly be state-of-the-art for sure, since it is of the early 1990s vintage. The TELs of Pinaka-1 always has SAGEM-built Sigma-30 RLG-INS, while the rockets had IMI-built trajectory correction systems (TCS). Now that IMI has been blacklisted, it remains to be seen if the DRDO will come up with a reverse-engineered TCS.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To SUBIR: 11) The portion of the boundary along Jammu is called the IB by India, not Pakistan, which refers to it as the working boundary (WB). 12) Eventually, 12 GRP-hulled MCMVs will be acquired. 13 & 14) And what about withstanding pot-shots from RPGs, LAWs & manportable ATGMs? Upgraded BMP-2Ks or even BMP-3s can act as battle-taxis & follow the MBTs ONLY IF there’s another type of armoured vehicle whose only job is to neutralise the anti-tank threats posed by dug-in infantry personnel. And leave alone 4km engagement ranges, ALL MBT versus MBT engagements in the subcontinent have always taken place at ranges between 700 metres & 2km & not beyond that due to the undulating nature of the terrain in both Punjab/Jammu & That/Cholistan deserts. No one has engaged in nor will anyone ever engage in armoured battles on the flat & featureless terrain in the Rann of Kutch. That’s why you first need to see the videos of the 1973 Yom Kippur War & Battle of 72 Easting before you jump to erroneous conclusions.

Bhaswar said...

So how to do you rate the Arihant, and the follow on prospective subs (from what you know of them) against the Chinese subs in terms of stealth and safety?

Gopher said...

Prasun said >> Israel is an ideological state, but with a secular character & constitution where ‘political judaism’ has no role to play in the affairs of the state & therefore that country’s Christian & Muslim citizens have equal rights & privileges.

What are you saying. Zionism, settlements, ring any bells. In this world we call it political extreme religious tyranny. Google it. You do good commentary on military stuff but regional affairs is not your thing.

Another thing you mentioned earlier, but my comments were deleted, and also cannot find your own comments where you mentioned pakistan's so called un judicial killings palling indias record in their kasmir region. Here 's a link for your consideration about 2900 bodies in mass graves in indian kashmir.

Gessler said...

Sir what is this now?

It says India & US have failed to arrive at a conclusion regarding M-777 artillery deal and that BAE is now going to close all M-777 production lines.

Please throw some light on this.

rad said...

Hi Prasun

I fully agree with the facts which RR Nair has put forth , yes the muslims are the richest in kerala today and sharia law is in force in the muslim majority areas. They have always been hostile to hindus , I`m sure you would have heard of the Moplah rebellion during the british raj where the moplahs raped more than 1000 hindu women in guise of freedom struggle ,nothing could stop them. THe british brought in the army and gunned several down which made them more sensible. Idiot MK Gandhi calls them nationalists!!I went to gujarat to do some relief work after the earth quake and was quite surprised by the hatred they had towards ghandhi as they hold him responsible for the deaths during the partition.
What RR Nair is saying is 100%true, there are total no go areas for hindus and there are many gated muslim community housing areas. Mind my words, you can control any muslim in the country but not in kerala.
The chopping of of the hand of a christian teacher in kerala is just one example , and what did the gov and the people say! they just kept quite and kissed the arses of muslm politicians .Imagine what would have happened if a hindu did that , you will have the likes of the bitch Barkha Dutt and other pseudo secularists like the congress driving down in droves to condemn hindu militancy.!
The muslim political parties are the most coveted ones in kerala as each party congress and commies kiss their arses and gives them all what they want irrespective if it is wrong or right under the guise of minority upliftment!! IN short there is a time bomb of immense proportion building up in kerala.
A girl from my town went to attend a marriage of a muslim classmate in kearala, who was educated in an ooty public school. the muslim girl was a happy go lucky kid wearing jeans like other teenagers. There was a total change in here attitude and behaviour. After the Nikah this guest girl donned jeans and much to her surprise was glowered upon by all the men and was scarred shitless!!
sorry prasun but this is the truth, and we will have many more kerala jihadis waging war in the future!!

rad said...

Hi Prasun
The south african derived anti material rifle uses the soviet 14.5 mm and 20mm bullet rather than the 12.7 mm nato round. Please correct if wrong.
What is the EW ware fare system for the LCA developed by india and israel based upon!
Did you notice the 2 pot bellied nsg guys being presented with the plaque for sherpa APC?

lachit said...

many among us view RSS VHP etc as trouble some lot
but practically in the long run they present a balance to the mullahs and pseudo-secularists, on the condition that they remain constructive and force a rethink on appeasement politics on the basis of religion
after-all we must strive to be SAINTS but not MARTYRS
moderate hindus ,muslims etc must
be the ultimate beneficiary in the long run

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To BHASWAR: PLA’s SSNs & SSBNs are noisier & can easily be detected underwater. Arihant won’t be as stealthy as the Akula-2.

To GOPHER: It may well be extreme religious tyranny for you, just like the forcible eviction of Hazaras from Quetta through terrorist strikes & usurping their lands for the rich Afghan druglords to build their mansions! The same goes for Punjabi settlers going & striking roots in Gilgit-Baltistan & spreading terror there & imposing upon the area’s local inhabitants a Governor & Chief Minister (both un-elected) hailing from Punjab. If according to you the West Bank & Jerusalem is occupied territory that ought to belong to the Palestinians, then who had occupied this territory in the first place way before Israel? Wasn’t it the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan? Why then no one bothered to label Jordan as the occupier prior to June 1967? Why do folks like you practice such double standards? As for mass-graves in Kashmir, at least the dead were given a decent burial—something that’s never done in Pakistan. So far, there are 18,000 missing persons in Baluchistan alone, followed by 1,200 decapitated bodies from Baluchistan that have been found abandoned in the streets of Karachi, and 400 killed in targetted killings. Consolidate the figures together from other provinces of Pakistan & the stark reality will be obvious to all. Still don’t believe me? Then watch what Pakistanis themselves are saying about all this:

To GESSLER: Absolute rubbish & total hogwash. Folks drafting such reports cannot be friends of India for sure. For one, the US DSCA will never put such a deal before the US Congress for congressional approval for this deal unless & until there’s a definite firm reqmt for importing such weapon systems of US-origin. Therefore, for those who know how exactly the FMS process works, this story is totally baseless.

To RAD: Yes. The NTW-20 uses 14.5mm rounds but these too are made by DENEL. The EW suite for Tejas Mk1 has ZERO (0) Israeli content. Those pot-bellied NSG officers are IPS officers presently attached to the NSG & will in future go to some other CAPF. Regarding Kerala, I too have noted with extreme disdain the various incidents of limb-chopping that have taken place since 2010.



I 100% agree with your comment on the SPG cover provided to the Gandhis, there is absolutely no legal basis for it AT ALL. And yet how much of the taxpayer's money is spent on protecting them??

Of course it is the local/state police's job to protect them.

I just hope some govt soon takes the decsion and pulls SPG cover from them, an absurd precedent has been set. They should only be for the PM, past PMs and their immediate fammiles and perhaps the Pres/Veep in the future.

Naturually it would take a non-Congress govt to take such steps though.

Wrt the 12 Sherpa's for the NSG, the 6 deployed in the NCR, are these with the main NSG counter-terror task force based at IGI airport? Ie would these Sherpas be flying out with the task force to whereever the task force was needed? They are transportable on the C-130J and C-17 afterall which must have been a key requirement for the NSG when selecting this beast.

and my 2nd quesiton would be:

when will the Indian Navy be ordering their S-70Bs that are obviously DESPERATLY needed??

VMT in advance

Gopher said...

Prasun said>> at least the dead were given a decent burial.

Thank God for that they were given a DECENT burial. WOW, take a breath and see to the level you are stooping.
Nobody deserved that man. And justifying atrocities and defending a failed argument by saying that xyz people also do that and Why dont you ask them etc is amoral.
thankyou for not deleting my recent comments, still wondering where your comments regarding 'pale india in comparison' went. ;)

Bhaswar said...

HOW can the Arihant be stealthier than the latest Chinese SSBN? That seems to be highly unlikely. Is there any feature or are their any details which prove that?

So now that Pakistan might lease a SSN, perhaps you will agree that they might have a program of their own too in the works?

How can Pakistan be plagued by insurgency for the next 30 years? Seems unlikely, after the US pull-out they will probably hunt down the TTP in 5-10 years. NO?

Vikram Guha said...

Prasun Da ,

(1) Will you please explain that in the development of the MAWS,EW suite on the FGFA what skills does DRDO bring to the table & what will be the contribution of SAAB and EADS/Cassidian ?

(2)Is the MAWS EW suite that the Ruskies are developing for their PAK FA not up to the mark thereby making it necessary for DRDO to opt for an alternative ?

As ever, thank you .

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To TRUTHSEEKER: A few of them could well be for catering to the reqmts at IGI. They’re airmobile as well, but in hubs like Chennai & Mumbai they will be prepositioned. S-70B Seahawks will be ordered sometime next year, following DSCA notification to the US Congress about an impending sale.

To GOPHER: It is you that’s staring down a bottomless abyss by trying to defend the indefensible for lack of a credible counter-narrative. Only someone who is holier-than-thou cow can claim to have a higher moral ground, & not someone who has committed far more horrific atrocities in places like East Pakistan, Baluchistan & Gilgit-Baltistan. Just ask any of the lakhs of tourists going to the Kashmir Valley if any of them have witnessed any ‘atrocity’ of the kind that’s routinely alleged by several Pakistan-based strategic analysts/regional observers to be taking place in J & K. As for the thousands of unmarked graves, don’t be too surprised if most of them turn out to be of foreign mercenaries hailing from West Punjab. All the comments that you’re trying to find are in the previous thread & no one deleted them.

To BHASWAR: You’ll find your answer in the documentary on SOSUS, whose video-link I had posted above. China won’t be in a position to lease one of its SSNs to Pakistan for quite some time, since China itself has a limited number of them. And who has ever said that the US will pull out from Afghanistan? It is only NATO’s ISAF elements that will withdraw. The US bases will stay with a residual force & even Turkey’s ISAF component will stay put in Afghanistan post-2014. The TTP wasn’t born just a decade ago. It was born in the mid-1990s & it began to take over control of selected areas within FATA since 1995. The Baluch insurgency has been underway since the early 1970s & still remains undefeated. Insurgencies are never comprehensively defeated within 10 years. All insurgencies worldwide have taken at least 34 years to be fully extinguished.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To VIKRAM GUHA: 1) Your answers lie in the tender no: DARE/14ATT054/LP, which can be downloaded from the DRDO’s tenders site. 2) Russia has so far developed MAWS packages for Mi-28NE, Su-35 & T-50 PAK-FA, but none of them are being produced on an industrial-scale & in technological terms, are still inferior to their Western counterparts. The MSWS package from DARE will be applicable to the Tejas Mk2 MRCA, Super Su-30MKI, FGFA, EMB-145I, A-50I PHALCON, the CABS’ AWACS-1 project, Jaguar IS/DARIN-3, as well as Rudra/Dhruv Mk3/4 & HAL-developed LUH helicopters, plus IL-214 MRTA transports.

Gopher said...

Bravo, another comment bites the dust.Lol

Anonymous said...

To Gopher:

all the atrocities in Gilgit-Baltistan that has been going on since the late 1980s. Just watch the following and if you still do not believe it then you can keep living in denial.

Bhaswar said...

VMT for the replies, but that still does not answer the question- how does the Arihant itself fare in comparison to Chinese subs?

Also I was watching this special feature on Kashmir, Neha Dhupia was the "narrator/host" and frankly quite annoying- buggers kept focusing the camera on her while I had to strain mine precious eyes to catch details of the soldiers and their load-out in the background. Anyway there was a nice bit about army schools being run in the valley- now I have seen these schools personally thanks to my father's profession and the fact that he has had the fortune of freely move through the forward areas- they are quite good- head and shoulders above any govt. school in Delhi- the students in fact were turned out in such an impeccable manner that it made me feel like a lout whenever I envisaged myself in my usual turnout at school- abusing the white and blue with juvenile mirth. The segue aside, why aren't there hundreds of these schools in the valley- we should be providing the army with funds and resources to open many more such schools. Let them be under the army since they have brought a fervor to the staff there that o government here could inspire. Why are we sleeping on this?

Anonymous said...

To Gopher: Here you go :)

sathead3 said...

Regarding SPG protection to Sonia & Rahul Gandhi, that's actually not illegal at all, much as it "seems" unfair. SPG's charter/mandate is to provide proximity security to the PM, ex-PMs and their immediate families for 10 years, beyond which they determine on a case by case basis. That is too easy an opening that Sonia would not leave uncovered for attack by her opponents. Its all strictly legal. check out

Mr. Ra 13 said...

The muslamics are changing not only in Kerala but everywhere else in India and world on similar patterns.

Vikram Guha said...

Prasun Da ,

I think I have downloaded the right tender pertaining to MAWS EW suite*Defence%20Avionics%20Res

There are more diagrams than any technical descriptions .

Suffice to say that only specialists like you can make sense out of this .


Anonymous said...

To Gopher: Just want to echo what Prasun said "As for mass-graves in Kashmir, at least the dead were given a decent burial—something that’s never done in Pakistan." Pakistan just "kill and dump" the bodies.

If you still do not believe these are credible source then i am sorry to say that not even a god can change you mind.You keep living in your la la land where as world will move on.

Anonymous said...

Dear Prasun,

In my post I have written a saying, again here below;

“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience"

The same is being witnessed here.
Please choose not to answer them, so that your analytical abilities, and wisdom can be best used for our defences.

Thanks Mr. RR Nair, for explaining the changes in kerala society first hand.

And according to my understanding Mr.Subramanya Swamy who recently joined in BJP and J Jayalaitha might be busy in taking care of TN and Kerala is left with no one. In Kerala the fight is between Church and Mosque now, Hindus are no more a decisive power there.

With few exceptions most of the muslims dream is, to convert India into an islamic republic. But what they dont know is they can not with stand to the kind of islamic rule that is coming.

We as Indians (Hindus) feel the pain of the disadvantages our Hindu society has produced over the time such as caste discrimination. Now we are paying the price for that due to these caste conversions and consequences there after.

Anyways this sort of discussion often tend to derail very fast.

So I request everyone to stop answering this and am stopping myself. Even I requested earlier.

Thanks to All.


Bhaswar said...

So, to be clear China wanted a base or some sort of agreement where they could use it for logistics, yes? AND that did not happen?

What of Seychelles, they tried for a base there too. What happened to that? THERE IS TREMENDOUS CONFUSION IN THIS REGARD, since there are conflicting reports?

What do you make of the current tumult in the Maldives? With the supreme court and now even the police stepping in into the election issues, are we seeing the hands of India, US and China behind the scenes?

Another topic of considerable confusion is all these "interceptors".

Could you please- definitively provide the basic info on the PAD, AD-1 and AD-2 separately?

As in:- a) Role. b) Available technical info wrt seeker and method of interception- hit to kill/KKV or proximity. c) Range, slant range, maximum altitude of engagement, lateral acceleration, speed?

VMT for your replies sir.

Vikram Guha said...

Prasun Da ,

Something off topic .

The International Consortium of Investigative Journalists database contains ownership information about hundreds of Indians who have deposited black money in 10 offshore jurisdictions including the British Virgin Islands, the Cook Islands and Singapore. It covers nearly 30 years until 2010. Search "India" and see the list of Indian account holders. See if you can find any familiar names :)

Bhaswar said...

@Vikram Guha

Excellent catch. Lamentably, there are forums and orgs such as FATF though which black money and money laundering related issues can be dealt with and now even Switzerland has agreed to automatically share data in this regard with India, yet do not hold your breath. Everyone's got there fingers in the pie and there is no babu, bureaucrat or neta who's going to go all out against black money. He/she would be crucified.

Prasun sir,

What do you make of the above?

My question is simple, WHY? Why, is this a complicated matter, rocket science, is there something BIG at stake for the MoD? Has the nation done something wrong? Is the MoD at a fundamental level treating everyone else as the enemy and sabotaging everything? One can understand corruption and inefficiency, BUT WHAT IS THIS- WHY IS AK ANTONY DOING THIS- HOW DOES INEFFICIENCY OR CORRUPTION FACTOR INTO THIS, DOES HE JUST HATE OUR WAR-FIGHTERS AND THE SERVICES?

rad said...

HI Prasun
What about the report that says that the LCA ew system was co developed by israel and india.
I believe there is some joint ew development going on , please comment.
The 14.5mm round has tremendous power and i believe it is of russian origin. the last i heard that the anti material rifle was rejected , now what is the solution now.All same counries have gone in for the battle proven barett 12.5 mm gun and its derivatives , i wonder what is india doing

DefenseandAerospace said...

Prasun ,

Just following up on the answers that you gave to a few other posters that the MAWS EW suite will be designed by India with support from SAABTech and Cassidian/EADS .

The UAC Chief had stated earlier this year that the avionics on board the FGFA is going to be the same as that on the PAK FA .


Bhaswar said...

Sir, apparently the M-777 production line is being closed.

What now?

Also, sir the Antanov-32s have been upgraded, could you elucidate on the status of the upgrade program and details? If they are going to be relevant for another decade plus then shall the MTA take over the role once the An-32s are retired or will we have to acquire another lifter in that category like the Alenia Spartan?

Will there be any ground breaking advancements in the lifter segment in the coming 20-30 years? Or will the technology remain largely the same with engines and electronics going through block-upgrades?

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To BHASWAR: Comparison in what specific performance/on-board systems parameters? Specific data cannot be available for as long as the Arihant does not complete its sea-trials. On J & K, there are a lot of other initiatives that have been successfully implemented over the years & I have a complete listing of such projects. The only deficiency lies in the areas of all-weather road/rail transportation networks & availability of uninterrupted electricity. Once such networks are in place, the residents of J & K will no longer waste their winter months doing nothing, as they do so now. Once the residents are engaged in year-long economic activities, no one there will have the stomach for engaging in acts of arson or civil disobedience & they all will instead start focussing on personal socio-economic upliftment—and this applies specially to the younger generation that is impatient & result/goal-oriented & is now aware of comparative prevailing standards of living elsewhere in the immediate neighbourhood. And that’s precisely the reason why Pakistan cannot stomach all this since its economy is in meltdown, it has become a default state & consequently it has no funds to spare for the socio-economic upliftment of the local residents of Gilgit-Baltistan & Azad Kashmir (POK) & consequently these folks are the ones now crying out in ever-louder voices in terms of achieving connectivity with J & K, like opening up of the Skardu-Kargil roadway. Islamabad realises only too well that the moment such connectivity is established, more & more residents of POK & Gilgit-Baltistan will gravitate toward India (which is logical) since they don’t want to be left-out in terms of socio-economic development. And that’s the very reason why there are now only 2 choices left on the table for Pakistan: either embrace the concept of soft-borders while accepting the LoC as a permanent boundary between India & Pakistan (as suggested by Musharraf & which was supported by China as well up to mid-2009); or go all out to spread mayhem & chaos within J & K in order to bring J & K’s socio-economic development activities to a standstill, thereby dissuading the folks of POK & Gilgit-Baltistan from gravitating toward J & K. Choice-1 is now less likely since the civilian politicians in Pakistan—given their vindictive nature—are averse to accepting the conflict-resolution solution propagated by a past military dictator. Thus, Choice-2 is now in play, but this will only result in the 2nd balkanisation of Pakistan after 1971, since the world at large remains unsupportive of such grand strategies.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To SATHEAD3: The legality can easily be challenged on very valid grounds, especially if Messrs Priyanka/Robert Vadra too are being provided SPG cover, as has been publicly documented. Furthermore, even former Deputy PMs like L K Advani who were part of the National Command Authority don’t have SPG or NSG cover, despite being one of the custodians of critical state-secrets during their past tenures within the executive branch of the Govt of India. In light of this, provision of SPG proximate security to those who hold no official position within the Govt of India is illogical & therefore legally untenable.

To VIKRAM GUHA: The diagrams clearly show the housing modules for the MAWS from SaabTech, meaning expressions of interest have been asked for from Indian industry for fabricating them under licence, as part of the direct industrial offsets component of the contract for procuring MAWS for Rudra & LCH helicopters. The MAWS installation from EADS/Cassidian is different since the sensors do not come encased within rectangular boxes.

To MESSENGER: Advice well-given & well-taken as well.

To BHASWAR: China wanted a logistics support agreement (and not bases) with Maldives & Seychelles, but got it only from Seychelles & that too for picking up perishable commodities for the crew complement of those warships that form the PLAN task force deployed on anti-piracy patrols around the Horn of Africa. As for data on BMD interceptors, it’s all there at:

LW-155’s production line isn’t being closed for good & it can be re-opened again whenever orders start flowing in, but the customer placing such orders will have to fork out extra sums of money for sure. Not that this matters to the likes of A K Antony & Co, since this money won’t come out of their own pockets, but from India’s taxpayers. The An-32RE upgrade is a modest one & does not feature any glass cockpit or night-vision enhancement, which are already available & could well be done at a later date. The An-32REs will remain in service for at least another 20 years & won’t require replacement by IL-214 MRTAs.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To RAD: Like I explained earlier, there’s no Israeli component for the EW system for Tejas Mk1. Very early on in April or May 2011 itself I had uploaded the poster showing all components of the EW suite for Tejas Mk1. The only Israeli components for Tejas Mk1 are the ELTA Systems-supplied EL/M-2032 MMR, the Targo HMDS from HALBIT Avionics & Litening-2 LDP from RAFAEL. 12.7mm is the prevailing world standard for AMRs. Even the PLA’s QBU-09 sniper rifle is 12.7mm & it was originally developed by Croatia & NORINCO bought this design’s IPRs & is now mass-producing it. Still, I would place my bets with the superior NTW-20 & its inter-changeable 14.5 & 20mm barrels.

To DEFENSE & AEROSPACE: The UAC Chief was referring to the avionics architecture of the T-50 PAK-FA and FGFA, & never spoke about the individual LRUs/sub-systems. I got it confirmed directly with Mikhail Pogosyan way back in February 2011.

abhay jain said...

prasun sir,

1) What was the 4 point solution for Kashmir suggested by Musharraf?
2) You said "(as suggested by Musharraf & which was supported by China as well up to mid-2009)".
why up to mid 2009?
3)What do you think when we are going to achieve "all whether rail/road connectivity to valley"?
4)what will be the move of Pakistan in next 1-2 years regarding Kashmir? Are we going to witness new wave of insurgency as expected by many people?
5) How the endgame in Afghanistan is going to affect the situation in Kashmir? will it be favorable for india or not? what's your opinion?


Prasun K. Sengupta said...


1) It’s all here:]

2) China was expecting the previous PPP-led coalition govt of Pakistan to carry forward from where Musharraf had left off in early 2008. However, the PPP-led coalition govt failed to move forward by giving the excuse that since the conflict resolution formula was evolved & carried forward by a military dictator without Parliament’s approval, it was therefore unimplementable. China then tried to put pressure on Pakistan by asking Islamabad to clarify the legal status of Gilgit-Baltistan before Beijing moved in to construct mega-gydel projects there, i.e. whether it was a disputed area or whether it was an integral province of Pakistan. In other words, China was trying to force Pakistan to permanently drop its insistence on implementing the UNSC resolutions on J & K, since annexation of POK & Gilgit-Baltistan by Pakistan & merging them into Pakistan’s fifth province would have been in direct contravention of Pakistan’s longstanding insistence on holding a plebiscite to determine the final status of J & K. But Pakistan’s civilian & military decision-makers, both post-2008 & the present ones, have clearly been unable to live up to China’s expectations & therefore in late January 2013 China have up all hopes of sanity dawning upon Pakistan’s decision-makers & decided to put additional pressure on Pakistan by: first, telling Islamabad that tensions along the LoC will not go down well with Beijing (which then forced the then Pakistani FM Hina Rabbani Khar to back down & subsequently issue a directive to the PA’s DGMO to strictly adhere to the ceasefire along the LoC); & second, initiating a trilateral dialogue between China, India & Afghanistan on the post-2014 ground situation in Afghanistan.

3) Such connectivity needs to be put in place on a war-footing, but both the NDA govt since 2000 & the subsequent UPA-1/2 govts have not pushed such projects the way they ought to have done & reegretably, such connectivity will become operational only before this decade ends. The same goes for the 292 mini-hydel run-of-the-river projects that are planned for implementation. Another idea that can be quickly implemented is the establishment of gigantic solar energy-generating farms throughout Ladakh, since that area has one of the highest thermal efficiencies due to its high altitude & minimal cloud-cover. This alone can make J & K an energy-surplus state & by exporting this energy to neighbouring states, J & K can earn lots of revenue & it will no longer require funds from the Centre.

4) No. Those days are long gone since both the counter-infiltration & counter-insurgency grids within J & K are functioning excellently & therefore Pakistan will be unable to internationalise the J & K issue.

5) There is no end-game in Afghanistan. The US will maintain its military presence there until it is able to de-nuclearise Pakistan.

Anonymous said...

The following observation is music to my ears;
"5) There is no end-game in Afghanistan. The US will maintain its military presence there until it is able to de-nuclearise Pakistan."

DAshu said...

I am desperately waiting for the 2nd balkanization of PAK . cannot wait to see a date where POK & Gilgit-Baltistan will be re-merged with INDIA. I am very happy to see the Musharraf's 4 point formula failing.

Pierre Zorin said...

Just had to say this Prasun. Talking about hypocrisy and double standards - watching the "operation wrath of God" link the late King Hussein in fact carried out brutal suppression on the Palestinians expelling them to Lebanon when they tried Jordan's patience and blew up the three jets. During the I/v King Hussein said that that incident was enough to try his patience. So what do the Palestinians do? Form a terror group and killed 9 Israelites Olympic team members and carried out blood shed. Any directed at Jordan? No. Any internationalising of King Hussein as a human rights violator? No. In fact if the Palestinians speak Arabic and religiously affiliated to the Arab world - why is it Saudi Arabia or any other Arab country not accommodating the Palestinians at least till a settlement with Israel is reached? If the Indian Muslims believe Pakistani led Islamic Utopian bluff will bring in a new dawn they are just as stupid as one believing one day each fart will smell of roses and jasmine!

Bhaswar said...

1) Well the Desi media finally woke up- the rectors going to Pakistan will indeed be under IAEA safeguard. Also they report that the Chinese just copied a Westinghouse reactor for the job, how is it that the US is not up in arms?

2) I think you're going over-board sir, the US can't de-nuclearize Pakistan. China has already made it clear that such a move would be resisted by it. Unless the US can engineer something 10 times as bad as they did in Syria and simultaneously sanction the whole country- hit them from multiple points- there is not even the slightest of chance that Pakistan will compromise on its nuclear efforts. The average pakistani loves his "Islamic bomb" more than he loves his own children, so it won't be so easy for the US as you seem to be insinuating.

3)Sir do you think CSL's efforts in making the IAC meet world standards, reading the interview where Commodore K. Subramaniam, it seems that CSL has learnt to run concurrent design and construction harmoniously, bringing in higher automation to the job, setting up 36 new weld processes, finding solutions such as the buoyancy pontoons. What can the other yards learn from CSL? What can we do to set up indigenous vendor and supply chains for the sub-components which we till date procure from outside. A navy which can source almost everything but the sensors and propulsion from within is a worthy achievement to aim for in the future. But then you've said that we are yet to get our act together on propeller shafts and gear boxes and the likes- any idea how these components can be produced in country?

4)Sir integrated masts being all well and good, what exactly is the terminology which applies to the completely contained and integrated superstructure on the Zumwalt class DDG, is a superstructure like that truly cutting edge and something that we cannot design in the next decade? One can understand if the tumblehome hull design might be too adventurous but certain other design philosophies from the ship in question are worth mimicking, can it be done by us?

5) Sir wrt the AD-1, AD-2 and PDV there is still one question, in the thread of yours which you gave me the link of you mention that DRDO is looking to switch to optronic/IR seekers for the interceptors, at the same time in another of your threads you provided a picture of an active radar seeker for the PDV.

As such could you un-pack the below bit-

"Posted below is a photo of the full-scale model of the X-band active radar seeker for the PAD exo-atmospheric interceptor vehicle developed by the DRDO. The more advanced PDV interceptor vehicle's R & D process has not yet ended since it was decided back in 2010 to develop a dual-mode terminal seeker for the PDV by employing sensor-fusion techniques. Consequently, the PDV interceptor will be equipped with both the active radar seeker, plus an imaging infra-red seeker that is already being developed for the AAD-1/2 endo-atmospheric interceptors."

Basically the PDV will have an active seeker AND an imaging infra-red one? While the AD-1/AD-2 will ONLY have imaging infrared seekers?

6)So at the end of this decade we will have a theater ballistic missile defense system in our hands, has there been permission granted by the CCS for the theater defense system OR is the DRDO pulling a fast one like on the ABM where they never took any permission?

7) Apparently the new border agreement between India and China will NOT contain the provision that China was insisting on- namely troop level freeze? Is that true? What can we expect from this agreement, what we can we expect at all since the Chinese even refuse to exchange maps with us so that we can accurately know till where there claims currently extend and by extension what's on their mind? So, truly, what can we expect from this pact/agreement?

Bhaswar said...

8) Now that we are importing fissile material, is there any way to sit down and better our previous warhead designs and then create a reasonable stockpile of 150-200 modern warheads (not including the older designs) to deal with any future contingencies? We will eventually have to re-visit our warhead designs once we get serious about MIRV carrying SLBMs beyond the BO-15 and K-4, might as well stat now, no?

9) Sir you have stated that the IN envisages 18 DDGs in its stables, is that number inclusive of the Delhi class and the Kolkata class or we talking about from P-15B on wards- as in is it 3 P-15As, 4 P-15Bs and then some clean sheet design filling up the next 11? What is the mix? Also if you are correct and the follow on DDG after the P-15B (which is far off indeed) are to carry 32 LRCM, 16 ASM and 48+ LR-SAM and then can the IN accommodate that on a 6000-8000 ton platform ALONG with the IFEP?

10) One still can't see the logic in what the IN wants to do with equipping the Delhi class with the RAN-40L? As per you statement, the said sensors is now the IN's standard fit on principle surface combatants from the IAC to the P-17A to the P-15B- as such when will the Kolkata's be upgraded with it- during SLEP- if so then what would be the prospective date?

VMT for your previous replies Prasun sir, hopefully this batch of queries will find you in good health and good spirit.

Bhaswar said...

One last thing sir, you've said that China has made it clear that it does not appreciate tensions on the LOC but facts point otherwise-

This year alone has seen many violations, this month alone has seen violations- mortar fire and casualties. So either you've misjudged what China wants, r how badly it wants it OR Pakistan is not listening to China. The latter seems unlikely since IF China was serious about what it wants it could squeeze Pakistan so hard that their COAS and PM would go crawling to Beijing on their knees, after all from the reactors to the Karakorum AEW&C, that too on soft loans, the Chinese could shut them down in a moment. So something seems to have gone astray in your analysis this time.

Iceman said...

1.What is the purpose of DRDO's HSTDV project?can you shed some light on it? aesa radar on FGFA will have Indian components? it the ASTOR platform that India and raytheon are negotiating for ISTAR requirements?
4.which RCWS will feature in Arjun tanks?some reports say that OFB developed RCWS will be integrated in arjun
5.will Airbus a330 mrtt replace IL-78 in future?

rad said...

HI Prasun
would you give any importance to the local make of ew for the LCA?.does it have any input from the cassidian collaboration?

K. SHEKAR said...

Hi Mr. Prasun,

1 - Are we really going to lease a 2nd Akula-class SSN from Russia? The news reports all over the internet seem to suggest so.

2 - Has the propulsion system been integrated on IAC-1 as yet?

3 - What will happen to the Barak-1 missiles that exist on present-day P-15 Delhi DDG after the SLEP upgrade gives it Barak-2?

Will it keep Barak-1 or remove them?

VMT in advance.

Gessler said...

Sir, look at this piece of news -

Pak seeks US intervention to resolve Kashmir issue.

What could be President Obama's response to this freak show put on by Pakistan's clown of a leader?

raw13 said...


Why is there a need for denuclearisation of Pakistan? You have said many time, Pakistan only has 10 nukes and they are under direct Chinese control. Or have you started to believe all that rubbish published by cia, US state department, Wikileaks and snowden?

I can tell you that even if Pakistan has nukes(lets assume), they will happily give them up the minute Kashmir issue is solved, as the people of the kashmir want. If you want to know what they want, just watch the flags when there is a Pak-India cricket match.

Ps. my prediction that PA will go for more Cobra ratherthan T129/Z10, seems to be coming true.

Anonymous said...

To Gessler :

GOI has made very clear that India will not accept any US or third party intervention, as the matter is a bilateral one agreed to between the two countries.

If Obama appoints special envoy for Kashmir, they will never ever get a visa to enter India.

Watch following video from 22:00 on ward.

Subir said...


1.In the undulating terrains of Thar and Cholistan deserts, the BMP-2 wont excatly be vulnerable to RPG-7 and ATGMs.Bmp-2 can lay down accurate fire with 30 mm Shipunov upto 1.5 to 2km.Infantry and atgm teams can be neutralised from standoff distances if they can be detcted and with TISAS on upgraded BMP-2 it wont be a problem. RPG-7 rounds have ranges from 800-1000 m after which they self-destruct.If the hostile atgm and rpg teams are engaged in long range with the 30mm BPM-2s will be well outside the engagement ranges.If just before the contact battle,cage armour from the BUSK upgrade is installed,then BMP-2 will be safe from RPG,Law,non tandem warhead Atgm. MBTs can also tackle the ATGM threat from good distances if they are armed with IMI APAM-M and similar multi purpose rounds. One of the major functions of APAM-M was neutralising ATGM froma safe distance outside of the ATGM engagement envelope.

2.Regarding PDV,isnt Rafale providing technical knowhow in the R&d of IIR seeker or is it totally a inhouse effort ?

3.Media reported AD-1,2 are going to be tested for the first time next year. Once Ad-1,2 and PDV completes the developement phase, how are they going to be deployed and in what pattern. AD-1,2 will be more than just TBM or Nlos-bsm hit to kill interceptors. Will this trio be deployed in NCR and Mumbai? Will important military installtions-airbases ,central ordance depots,POL dumps,armour garrisons,nuclear installations,military production facilties get AD-1,2 and/or PDV cover ?

4.Besides developement of hit to kill interceptors for phase 2,arent there parallel R&d going on radars ?

Which radars will provide the crucial long range early warning and X-band precision guidance and tracking radars. EL/M-2080 would be too short legged in case of IRBM,MRBM and ICBM.

5.Pakistan has been consistently and actively engaged in ceasefire violations over the last few months. And they ahs been steadily going downwards.Isnt it high time they are given a befitting reply by us.There has been enough of this bullshit and diplomatic talks. While their DGMO is engaged in supposedly contsructive talks,the Pak rangers have been continously firing upon BSF posts and even shelling villages on and near to IB with mortars.Sharif has even asked for US intervention.LoL

6.Some months ago there were news reports that IN is looking forward to a 3rd batch of Talwar class FFG and negotiations will begin once the 3rd of 2nd batch arrive in India. There has been no news on it since.Whats its status ?

7.Is IN really going to lease another Akula 3,'Irbis'? PTI has reported it is being leased on account of shortage of submarines but its going to take another 3 years for its completion and sea trails and by then Scorpenes will be avialable and so will INS Arihant.

8.What is stalling the APS deal of the 1st batch of 330 T-90S.Iron Fist APS was selected way back in 2008. After that why hasnt the deal progressed?
And what about the APS of the rest of the T-90M.

9.What will be the agreements inked and deals signed during this Indo-Russian summit ? Will any defense deals be signed ?
Will the FGFA issue be brought up in this visit ?

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To PIERRE ZORIN: This whole mess in Palestine began with the Brits & French deciding to balkanise West Asia after WW-1, with the Brits holding on to Jordan & installing the Hashemite Bedouins as the rulers, while Syria was carved into half, with the Brits controlling Syria & Lebanon being carved out of Syria & given to the French. In Jordan today, 70% of the population is made of Palestinian Arabs & therefore, Jordan ought to be the post-WW-2 independent Palestinian State. That’s the demographic reality & yet Jordan continues to be ruled by the minority Hashemites. If only what’s now going on in Syria (the majority Sunnis wanted to overthrow the minority Allawite Shias) is repeated in Jordan, then the entire Palestinian issue will be resolved once & for all. That’s the elementary reality which the Bedouin Arab rules throughout the Arabian peninsula are refusing to acknowledge.

To BHASWAR: 1) If only it was that easy to copy a n-reactor design & upscale it. These idiotic ‘desi’ journalists can’t even figure out the basics of nuclear powerplant design! India alone took more than 30 years to absorb the CANDU PHWR technologies & upscale them to 540mW & 40 years to upscale them to 700mW. 2) Resisting is the not the same as preventing. There’s a huge difference between the two. Afghan President Hamid Karzai has been quoted on record as saying that the US bases in Afghanistan post-2014 are meant specifically for countering Pakistan WMD arsenals & sites. The average Pakistanis have come on several Pakistani TV channels over the past four years to say that they give a damn about Pakistan’s WMDs because they’re sick & fed up of eating grass since 1974 & yet, today Pakistan’s WMD capabilities are absolutely useless in terms of preventing Predator/Reaper RPA strikes in Pakistan’s Khyber Pakhtunkhwa & FATA areas. And the average Indian is unaware of such rumblings simply because Pakistani TV channels are barred from being broadcasted in India. Two years ago itself I had stated that the US had clandestinely & successfully infiltrated 4,000 over-ground workers (OGW) into Pakistan & when they landed in Pakistani airports, Pakistan’s federal Intelligence Agency (FIA) had disabled all CCTVs at those airports so that the ISI would not be able to keep track of such OGWs. Raymond Davies was one of them. These OGWs have already mapped the coordinates of all 74 WMD-related sites existing in Pakistan. The rest is history. I’m therefore not insinuating anything, rather I’m proceeding based on undeniable facts that are all out in the open.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To BHASWAR: 3) These are not world standards by any stretch of imagination. These were all existing in MDL by the late 1980s itself for the Class 209/Type 1500 SSK production programme. And they were permanently lost due to apex-level mismanagement by the MoD. If anyone is so enamoured with achieving high levels of indigenisation, then better make a modest start by producing locally-made Indian tricolor flags, instead of importing them from China! Aircraft carriers can follow much later. 4) Integrated masts have so far been developed in the US by a team comprising Raytheon, Lockheed Martin & Northrop Grumman, while from France, THALES has done so & BAE Systems has done it too. No one else has achieved such a feat. 5) Answered that several times before. 6) Absolutely not. Without a network of ground-based X-band radars, no TMD network can ever be created. 7) 100% true. Maps of the central sector were exchanged two decades ago. Maps for the rest will be exchanged in the near future & as the leadership of both countries are now anxious to resolve this issue ASAP. 8) There’s no link between the two. India is committed to retaining a stockpile of 3 tonnes of plutonium as per her submissions to the Fissile Materials Cutoff Treaty (FMCT) that is still being negotiated in Geneva. 9) 18 includes 5 Kashin-2, 3 P-15, 3 P-15A & 4 P-15B. Eight more are to be acquired of which five will replace the Kashin-2s. 10) P-17A will have EL/M-2282 AMDR, not RAN-40L. P-15A DDG hasn’t even entered service & only after 10 years in service will the first P-15A DDG be subjected to SLEP. 11) Beijing has indeed put the squeeze & that’s why Mian Mohd Nawaz Sharif has gone to the US with a begging bowl. When was the last time Pakistan test-fired the Shaheen-2? And why have the DF-16s (meant to replace the Shaheen-1s) haven’t yet arrived in Pakistan? Like I stated before, my analysis is firmly rooted in hard-facts, not wishful thinking as you have wrongly assumed.

To ICEMAN: 1) The purpose is to have reusuable space shuttle-like vehicle, plain & simple. 2) Yes, it will. That’s already confirmed. 3) Yes. 4) The photos clearly show the OFB-developed bulky RCWS. Much lighter options are available from abroad. 5) Of course not. IL-78MKI will serve for at least another 40 years & in future they will be re-engined & their airframes will be re-lifed. IL-76MDs too will undergo that same process.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To RAD: The locally-developed EW suite for Tejas Mk1 is now obsolete. Far better to install the AESA-based directional internal jammers of the Virgilius family (as has been done on the MiG-29UPG) & do away with the obsolete DARE-developed R118 RWR & instead go for the SaabTech-developed RWRs & LWRs. Just wait for the Tejas PV-1 with the ‘desi’ EW suite to take off & once the totally ‘dismal’ performance reports are available to the IAF, then watch out for ADA to issue another statement saying that the IAF wants a new EW suite for Tejas Mk1! And then whosoever is the Defence Minister by late 2014 will make a statement in Parliament about the so-called IOC-2 being postponed by another two years! This is exactly what will happen. Hope you can then remember what I had predicted.

To SHEKAR: 1) Using terms like ‘expected’ & ‘may’ does not exude much confidence from such reports, especially at a time when the clock’s ticking away for the LW-155 howitzer deal to be inked. 2) Not yet. 3) There’s no space for Barak-2 on P-15 DDG. Barak-1 will be retained.

To GESSLER: If indeed any Pakistani PM today seeks US intervention to resolve the Kashmir dispute, then the US President can only say that the issue is resolvable if either Pakistan decides to implement the 4-point formula without any further delay, or if Pakistan unilaterally withdraws from POK & Gilgit-Baltistan. And as for raising the bogey of a nuclear flashpoint, how come Pakistan’s much vaunted WMD arsenals are totally useless when it comes to failing to deter the CIA’s Predator/Reaper RPA strikes inside Pakistan? Unfortunately, Pakistan’s decision-makers still don’t realise what Pakistan’s average citizens have since 2004, i.e. that nuclear weapons are not a panacea for solving all of Pakistan’s ills. As I had explained earlier & as I will later in a new thread with maps & illustrations, a swift Indian Army thrust across the LoC & the Working Boundary between Chhamb & Sialkot, backed up by large-scale usage of fire-assaults by NLOS-BSMs in this area, will quickly bring the IA dangerously close to Marala Headworks—the facility that supplies water to Islamabad & Rawalpindi—against which Pakistan’s alleged TNWs will be totally unusuable. This is the best way of calling Pakistan’s bluff & discrediting its often-mouthed ‘nuclear flashpoint’ bogey.

To RAW13: Smartarses can only come up with illogical wisecracks. Denuclearsiation is much more than just nuclear de-weaponisation as you’re alluding to. Secondly, Pakistan obtained WMDs not for the sake of Kashmir, but because it faces—according to the Pakistan Army—an existential threat from India. As for the flags you’ve mentioned, they have either red or green backgrounds on which the crescent moon & star are superimposed, & by no stretch of any imagination can they be described as Pakistani flags. Therefore, do observe what’s in front of your eyes the next time, instead of just seeing. More AH-1Fs are reqd since the 20 supplied so far (to replace the earlier 20 AH-1S) are in desperate need of servicing & no more than 8 are presently airworthy.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To SUBIR: 1) Baktar Shikan & TOW ATGMs have ranges in excess of 2km. BUSK cannot neutralise ATGMs. Primary role of any MBT is to destroy hostile MBTs. Carrying APAM rounds will only reduce the number of APFSDS rounds available. Furthermore, APAM is only used when fighting in built-up areas. Hyperbaric warheads carried by ATGMs like the SAMHO that can be fired from BMPT-2-type vehicles as well as helicopter-gunships are far more effective against dug-in hostile infantry concentrations. 2) In-house effort. 3) Already answered that several times before. 4) No. 5) The DGMO-level talks will lead to NOTHING since no DGMO in this world will acknowledge the existence of no-state actors or covert special operations. The moment anyone acknowledges the existence of either of these two, it opens up a can of worms for both parties. 6) Nothing new so far. 7) That’s why that news-item makes no sense. It will take almost 7 years for this SSGN to be readied for commissioning. 8) The entire T-90S mid-life upgrade programme is stalled due to HVF’s deficiencies. 9) Wait & see. What exactly is the issue regarding FGFA?

Bhaswar said...

Sir, VMT for the replies.

What do you make of HAL's refusal to license produce the Pilatus, will the IAF now intensify its stance against the science project driven vision of HAL and only resist their overtures even more?

What the do you mean by de-nuclearization sir? The whole idea of CIA agents in Pakistan getting ready to take away the nukes sounds like a conspiracy theory, why would the Pakistani army EVER allow that?

Sir x-band radars can easily be acquired so what is the issue in a TMD?

On a lighter note do you remember AK. Anotony's utterances that the IAF would be operating a 100 plus LCA of two tranches by 2016? In hind sight he must be beating his head on a wall, or is he still oblivious?

Sir when can we hope for such a map exchange?

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To BHASWAR: That’s a splendid opportunity for any private-sector company to jump in & undertake the licenced-assembly of the PC-7 Mk2s that will arrive in semi-knocked-down condition, although it will be far cheaper & faster to import them off-the-shelf. The CIA’s OGWs didn’t go there to smuggle out the WMDs, rather they went there to obtain the GPS coordinates of all the static sites so that at a later date they could be neutralised by air-strikes. One cannot obtain precise GPS coordinates of targets unless one is physically at those sites or unless there’s a UAV overflying such sites & recording the precise GPS coordinates. Of course the Pakistan Army will never allow that & that’ precisely why the then Pakistani Ambassador to the US, Hussain Haqqani, issued 4,000 entry visas to the CIA’s OGWs without notifying the Pakistan Army or the Pakistan Foreign Office & after Memogate happened (when all this got exposed) Hussain Haqqani was declared Pakistan’s No1 traitor & since then he has been staying in the US & visiting India at least twice every year. Who will supply X-band precision-tracking radars to India for TMD? A K Antony can’t even tell the difference between the frontend & the backside of a Tejas MRCA, rest assured. Like I’ve predicted above, just wait for the EW suite-equipped Tejas Mk1 PV-1 to complete its 20 scheduled flight-tests & after analysis of all the recorded data has been concluded, then the bombshell will be dropped by ADA & IAF HQ. As for map exchanges, just wait for the forthcoming summit between Dr MMS & President Xi Jinping to be concluded & the envisaged results will follow, since the ‘Framework Agreement’ is already in place, as per NSA Shivshankar Menon.

Finally, here are two clips on THALES’ integrated masts:

Bhaswar said...

Ergo it was meant in a lighter note, I remember a time when he issued a statement that IOC had been achieved and work was on for the FOC back in 2011 only to back track and state that "IOC-1" had been achieved. Does he realize that these terms are just that- TERMS- even if they are awarded sans the work that goes into attaining said clearance the IAF will still have to go through the same procedure as it would have anyway if the logical course was followed. At the end of the day the Tejas will come "online" at the same time anyway, whether you short circuit the procedure or let it take its course. How can our RM be this knackered? Why is he the RM anyway? Was the post up for grabs through a lottery, or picking the shortest stick or something like that?

Sir what existing x-band sensors are used by others for TMD, why can't we buy those?

Sir airstrikes on these establishments will mean an open war between the US and Pakistan, something that the US has no appetite for. AND now that the Pakistani army knows about the OGWs they will go on a war footing to shift all those sites even if they go bankrupt, why will they leave these sites in the same place or undefended? They will be hunting these OGWs day and night.

Anonymous said...


if a few paki flags hosited in J&K does that mean that it is a paki controlled land? Or is it something great?

if you allow hindus in pak, they too would have been hoisting Indian flags..

see in london everyone is free to hoist their own flag.. does that mean that UK is inferior to any nation?

for example if a city has 10 million population such as mumbai and if some 10 people burn tyres in prominent location and smash some policae cars, it comes in headline. Does that mean these 10 people superior to the rest of the city?

y u guys always show you are from pak, i do not understand; my dear, you no need to prove your shit brains everytime by illogical things. we know this and remember this; pls don't show your circus here anymore.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To BHASWAR: Apart from Jaswant Singh, has post-1947 India ever produced any defence minister who has served with India’s armed forces? Have any of them ever undertaken a course on higher defence management at the College of Defence Management in Secunderabad? If not, then one cannot expect any of them to contribute anything at all, except for giving rise to scandals & postponing force modernisation plans for the flimsiest of reasons. Any person who can’t even talk in a coherent manner while reading statements in Parliament or who does not even have the time to regularly visit the forward positions of the IA or IN or IAF during peacetime has no moral or ethical right to remain as India’s RM, plain & simple.

The only operational X-band radars available are from the US. Even Israel uses them, for instance, with the US-supplied THAAD.

Open war can always be waged from the air without any contact whatsoever between the US & Pakistani armies. A 7-day non-stop US-India joint offensive air campaign against the 74 targetted sites staged from Afghanistan, from the Arabian Sea & from Diego Garcia by Tomahawk TLAMs, B-52s, B-1Bs & B-2s, with the IAF’s A-50I PHALCONs & Su-30MKIs providing air supremacy over Pakistan’s entire airspace will destroy not only the nuclear R & D sites & PAF air bases, but also the WMD command-and-control facilities, missile production/storage facilities in Punjab, Sindh, Khyber Pakhtunkhwa and the Northern Areas, & the nuclear fissile materials production centres at Khushab that are completely closed/shut down every year between January & April. Such static sites are impossible to re-locate. The OGWs finished their jobs way back in mid-2012 & are long gone. There’s a strong & credible reason why the USAF & IAF have been holding the Cope India series of joint air exercises & Red Flag multilateral exercises, while France’s air force & the RAF have been holding similar exercises with the IAF. These are not just for showing off, but have a very strong operational underpinning, all of which will become evident on the ‘Day of Reckoning’, rest assured.

Bhaswar said...

So then we procure the AN/TPY-2, although despite the repeated questions you have desisted from providing a clear "yes" or "no" on the hit to kill KKV being present on the PDV or not, same for the PD-1/2. Any particular reason?

What day or reckoning sir? If I were to scream "BOO" right now half our leaders would fall dead of a heart attack. It will take some real temerity and gumption to do that. Sir even if it is difficult to move such sites now that Pakistan knows what's cooking they will try their damn best to disperse at least the existing warheads and missiles. They will have to be brain dead not to, not to mention they will probably fortify the whole area and beef up their ADGE, or dig in with nuke proof bunkers. SURELY it cannot be this easy, besides barring future procurement we are woefully lacking on PGMs, heavy guided munitions and stand-off munitions- things which would take the better part of what remains of this decades to be developed/procured. So when shall this day of reckoning come?

DAshu said...

A K Antony can’t even tell the difference between the frontend & the backside of a Tejas MRCA, rest assured. --- I could not help laughing until my stomach pained . lolz.

Ron said...

Sir, Why would GOI accept the 4 point.formula when PoK is ours and will be our territory. We need to take it back .

IAF is awefully short of tactical AGM, standoff terminal guided pgms and 200-350 km range ALCM. After these deficiencies are taken care of why can't IAF single-handedly conduct the above mentioned air-campaign without participation of USAF,RAF and French airforce ? Its a bilateral issue and IAF is more than capable for this.

Its a matter of great luck for Rawalpindi Ghq and Pakistan govn that India hasn't got any similar minded ministers in the Cabinet like the Israelies.

Nawaz Sharif had been busy using the n word
nowadays and GoI too is giving in to this bluff.

We can ofcourse give them a demo by having IAF bombing the shit out of terrorist camps and infrastructure in PoK. Afterall why shouldn't we when PoK had always been ours. God knows why is the presnt GoI incapable of calling such strikes .

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To BHASWAR: AN/TPY-2 has so far been deployed only in Israel & Japan outside the US, while the system is due for deployment in future in Qatar & the UAE. Such radars are not yet allowed for export to India since India has not evinced any real interest in importing THAAD. As for details on the PDV, it’s all there at:

It is IMPOSSIBLE to move the WMD sites, & not difficult. Warheads are not the concern at all, since they’re in China’s safe custody & are located outside Pakistan. It’s the delivery systems & the fissile materials production facilities at Khushab that are the principal targets. Pakistan’s ADGE was a joke prior to OP Neptune’s Spear & nothing has changed since then. And why should one bother about the quantum of PGMs held by the IAF when it’s the USAF that will be conducting the precision air-strikes? IAF will provide only offensive air-cover & for that only WVRAAMs & BVRAAMs are reqd.

To RON: If indeed POK & Gilgit-Baltistan was India’s & India had a moral right to reclaim them back, then why were they not captured in mid-1999 during OP Vijay/OP Safed Sagar? The fact remains that in Shimla in 1972 India unilaterally forfeited her moral claim to POK & Gilgit-Baltistan by agreeing to make the LoC the permanent international boundary. However, thankfully, this commitment was just an understanding & was not put in writing. And yet the NDA govt in mid-1999 utterly wasted a golden opportunity to do a ‘reverse-Kargil’. Yet another opportunity is now approaching, but it remains to be seen if any future Govt of India will have the audacity, balls & grit to grab the bull by its horns. Pakistan’s possession of WMDs is not just India’s problem, but a global problem, given that country’s proven track-record in global nuclear proliferation. In addition, if Iran wants to forego its nuclear weaponisation option, then it will definitely insist that Sunni Pakistan too be subjected to de-nuclearisation. Therefore, de-nuclearisation of Pakistan has got to be undertaken by a global ‘coalition of the willing’. For, it’s not just about offensive airpower projection, but also a lot about international relations. It will be a total waste of time, money & ordnance if they’re to be used for destroying terrorist training/hosting facilities in POK. Instead, the leadership of these terrorist networks ought to be targetted & destroyed in both Muzzafarabad & West Punjab. For, if you want to kill a snake, you have to chop its head off, & not its tail.

Ron said...

Sir, Why will IAF just provide offensive air superiority and wont engage in any precsion strikes? Why will any self-respecting airforce do that ? And why can't this entire offensive air campaign be carried out by IAF alone without involvement of other parties ? IAF is capable of that.Why can't this be an one man show ? We are even capable of gathering actionable intelligence.

If USAF is involved there won't be any need for offensive air-superiority as B-2 will only be involved and they won't be picked up by PAF Iads network.

When Cabinet is mum and still resorting to diplomatic talks for enforcing the ceasefire and sort out the situation even as intense firing goes on now,how can one expect them to grab the horns.This cabinet ought to get the next Nobel Peace Prize.

How many THAAD batteries and missile rounds Israel and Japan possess? Is there any need of THAAD for us ? What is the couThaad in the Russian arsenal ?

Almaz Antey has been working on two hit to kill interceptors with a 500 km range for quite some time now. Can't their early warning and X band precsion tracking radar be acquired and integrated with Bmd phase 2.

Ron said...

* What is the counterpart of THAAD in Russian arsenal?

Anonymous said...

Confirms your analysis of the keran incident.

Anonymous said...

Prasund da : As per the video of american iraq war the M1 Abrahms rammed all the T 72s tearing them into pieces , What would be the situation if Indian T 72,T 90 or Arjun encounter an M1 Abrahm which is heavly armored and has shells which are coated with depleted uranium.
Also Our Indian BMPs are not equipped with anti tank missiles like the american one's

Bhaswar said...

IF it is so easy to "de-fang" Pakistan then will India fare any better if such a coalition were to come after us?

If all of this is common knowledge then why do we not see the Pakistani establishment trying to mitigate the scenario on a war footing?

Why would the warheads be with China in the first place, that would defeat the whole purpose of Pakistan being a nuclear armed state and ergo invalidate any reason for such a strike.

So when do you reckon this day of reckoning will come?

RD said...

A news article about Chinese military companies & its capabilities in the link-

Now this will surely going to give sleepless nights to Russian,European & American defence companies & change global arms trade.

I remember that once computer products were highly costly during 1980's,1990's and only handful of people had. But once China,Taiwan,Singapore,Philiphines started producing computer parts the cost came down & now its possible for larger mass to get hold one of it, even political parties distributing 'Made in China' laptops before elections.

reddy said...

// A repost due to spell errors

Am just interested / perplexed what u r profession would be and how old you would be. Just curious based on the number and nature of your questions..
(You may choose not to answer me if you feel so..)

Have you got any idea what does it take to go for a war? and how much a fullscale war would cost on a daily basis?

Do you have any little idea how much each type of bombs/ missiles cost?

Do you know how much it costs to keep an airborne platform either fighter/bomber/Intel etc for an hour? leave alone bombing/missles attached to them and firing them during war..

If you have got any idea atleast a little you wont be speaking such things..such as attacking whole pakistani defence establishment on our own...



Bhaswar said...


You can call me a bean counter as far as my profession is concerned.

As for my age, hold old do you think I am?



I've been reading a few very recent reports on the MMRCA and there seems to be quite a significant range on the deadlines being proposed for the singing of such a deal. We have the deputy ACM of the Indian Air Force saying the deal will be signed by March 2014, the Dassualt CEO saying he is still hopeful of a deal by the end of this calendar/fiscal year but then a few unnamed industrial sources in France from an article I had read saying they don't see a deal being signed until mid-2015 at the earliest.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To RON: Because that’s how international coalitions work, i.e. by task-sharing. It does not mean that the USAF or the RAF is incapable of undertaking offensive air superiority missions. It can’t be a one-man show for the very same reasons that international coalitions had to be created for implementing OP Desert Storm in 1991 & OP Enduring Freedom in 2001. All information on THAAD can be googled & found out. Russia has nothing coming even close to THAAD.

To Anon@1.23PM: In that case the IA’s T-72 & T-90s will suffer the same fate. Only the Arjun MBTs will fare much better. Indian BMP-2s have Konkurs-M ATGMs that are better in performance than the TOWs & Baktar Shikan.

To BHASWAR: No one ever claimed that it will be a walk-in-the-park when it comes to de-fanging Pakistan. And that’s precisely why such an operation has to be a team-effort & multinational in character. If India is targetted, then the list of targets to be hit will be longer, in the range of some 600 targets to be hit & neutralised. And how exactly will Pakistan try to mitigate its weaknesses on a war-footing? As it is its citizens are eating grass after paying the price for acquiring WMDs & their delivery capabilities. Do you expect them to survive without even grass & acquire state-of-the-art air-defence systems? Possession or non-possession of n-warheads is only one-half of the problem. The far greater security-risk is about proliferation of WMD-related technologies by Pakistan’s officialdom, this being an area where Pakistan has a proven track-record. Iran, Libya & DPRK have been the principal beneficiaries of such activities. Such activities cannot go unpunished as per international practices. Furthermore, production of fissile materials at Khushab & their reprocessing & stockpiling in China creates more problems for both the US & Russia, apart from India. Lastly, you’re assuming that WMDs means only nuclear warheads—which is totally wrong.

To RD: It’s not yet giving sleepless nights, since such China-produced hardware has been appealing to only select countries in South Asia, Central Asia, Middle East, Africa & Central/South America. Furthermore, such hardware does not include state-of-the-art sensors, but platforms like medium battle tanks, APCs, MRAPs, VSHORADS, light MRCAs, primary jet trainers & small arms. But entities like CPMIEC or NORINCO or ALIT are by no means small companies & their export-drives will affect weapons-exporting countries like Singapore, Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Brazil, Bulgaria, Poland, Serbia, South Africa, etc.

Bhaswar said...

Why would Iran want a nuclear free Pakistan?

Also if the Chinese keep the bombs then what will be the point of hitting all these targets considering that China can easily provide them with the bombs and delivery vehicles again? ALSO why would China allow anyone to do all of this, the PLAAF can easily fly into Pakistan for its defense under such an exigency OR easily pass on HQ-9 and other high performance SAMs for free- after all they would be protecting all their investments in Pakistan compared to which a few SAMs are peanuts?

Not to mention that if even one site gets missed of even one platform which can be mated with a warhead brought from China then Pakistan will most definitely HIT us with it.

Littlemaster said...


1. What were the 5 major bilateral agreements on defense,space and hydrocarbon sector which were signed today in the summit ?

2.The Hindu published an article reporting the finalising of Atlas ACTAS for 6 warships. Hasn't this deal already been signed and wasn't it for 9 warships -3 P15A,3P17,3Kamorta class ?

3.Won't the 6 Talwar class and Delhi class also get such Actas ?

4.How many Sishumar class have been upgraded till date? They could have been fitted with an AIP plugin.

5.Before the summit there were widespread reports of leasing another Akula sub. Well has it happened ?

6.When will the detailed design phase of Fgfa be inked ?

7.Which ashm and lacm had been selected for Shisumar class between Harpoon and 3M14E, 54E

8.Is the Astor from Raytheon better than other Istars from Bae,elta,thales? Did IAF carry out an extensive fields evaluation trial of all the contenders ? Elta istar was very good.

9.What will be the platform for Astor?

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To BHASWAR: Because within the Islamic Ummah, no Shia-majority Islamic state would ever tolerate a Sunni-dominated Islamic State being in possession of nuclear WMDs. And after such pulverizing air-strikes that will de-fang Pakistan, that country is hardly expected to remain as one single entity. Within a very short period of time after such air-strikes, that country will break up into four parts. China alone cannot stand in the way of an international coalition of the willing that will include the NATO member-states, Russia, India, Japan, etc. That’s precisely why a multinational coalition-of-the-willing has to be formed. Any LR-SAM can be defeated with ease with innovative tactics. There’s no conventional weapon system in existence that guarantees assured survivability. The Punjabi civilian/military decision-makers of Pakistan—given their materialistic & feudal mindsets & all their wealth stashed away in Europe & North America—will NEVER make the mistake of launch a first-strike with nuclear weapons against anyone, not even India. For if they do, then all their overseas investments will not only get burnt, they won’t even live to regret their losses due to massive retaliatory n-strikes from India. All this has already been wargamed several times since 2005 in several countries & the outcome has always been the same: i.e. break-up of Pakistan into four distinct countries.

To LITTLEMASTER: 1) No military procurement deals were inked. 2) Deal has already been signed. THE HINDU is light-years behind in terms of reporting the latest news on such matters. 3) Of course. Such systems are always ordered in tranches & never in one go. 4) Three. 5) Obviously not. 6) Soon. 7) Not yet. 8) The ELTA solution is the preferred choice for the Bombardier 5000 platforms.

Bhaswar said...

Well sir, sounds all well and good but who's going to build this coalition, we can't, and if this coalition doesn't exist at the moment then there isn't much chance that any Indian leader with the vision will arise in this decade anyway. One thing is true, loha abhi garam hai but we have no one here at least who's willing to wield the hammer. So this is not a certainty at all since the US must have made any such exigent action contingent on some eventuality, its up to them while we'll just be tagging along for the ride. As in what are the chances, what is the probability of this happening and in what prospective/probably time frame? And Russia and the NATO working together, that is not going to happen, Russia would be crating a split in the SCO by striking at a Chinese ally, for what joy would they do that?

Littlemaster said...

Sir, 1. Hasn't Iaf selected the Raytheon ASTOR for its ISTAR reqirements?

2.Will the detailed design phase be signed during Rm's visit?

3.What was the deal in hydrocarbon sector? Is it of any strategic importance ?

4. Will Arihant begin its sea trials this year?

5. Has orders for additional aerostat mounted Airstar radars placed ?

6. Which radar is the winner of Iaf's long range S ban radar for which Elta,Selex Galileo and Thales were participating .

Bhaswar said...

@Reddy Hope my last reply was not too cryptic, I am an accountant and a freshly turned 22 young ling. Satiating my curiosity by any means is my vice and ergo the incessant stream of question. I have often urged Prasun Sir to let me know if I get on his nerves or end up annoying him.

@Prasun Sir One last thing, are the current tunnels being dug out in Kashmir going to provide around the year connectivity, if so do you think the path to Kashmir's development is on track and secure? They are our people and like all our citizens who live in the various remote areas of this nation we have a responsibility towards them. What more can be done, is the current progress on track?

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To BHASWAR: The scenario wargamed by the US Joint Chiefs in 2005 envisaged the punitive air-strikes taking place sometime between 2014 & 2017. A loose coalition already exists since 2002 & it can be formalised at any time. That too was wargamed in 2005. Russia & NATO have been working together since the breakup of the USSR & have already conducted several multinational exercises to date. If Russia regarded NATO as its sworn enemy then why have the B-52s, B-1Bs, F-15Es, F-16s & Rafales been participating in successive MAKS expos in Russia since the previous decade? China can always be ‘bought over’ by Russia & other members of the SCO through promises of additional supplies of fossil fuels for extended durations. Everything’s negotiable. As for J & K, for as long as there’s year-round rail/road connectivity with India’s hinterland & an assured supply of electricity, J & K has an assured bright future within the Indian Republic. As to how these projects are being implemented & at what pace, I had already explained all this earlier in this thread.

To LITTLEMASTER: 1) Not yet. 2) Yes. 3) Not much. Just the usual involving ONGC-Videsh. 4) Next month, after the Russian submarine-tender with Bestor DSRV arrives in Vizag. 5) No. 6) Not known as yet. Competition is still underway.

Bhaswar said...

So seriously Pakistan is doing nothing to avoid this, they are just sitting pretty, why? Seems as if they are dreaming then, perhaps even more short sighted and clueless than our babus- and that's saying something.

saurav jha said...

Hello Prasun,

How do you think this new assistance from USA will affect the IP gas pipeline and Gwadar..? There has been a spike in Balochistan resistance after a lull for few months. Will we see this getting even more serious after 2014 LS election if NaMo wins..?

What are the prospects of AAP in Delhi election..? Has it any chance of winning or, it will be a sopilsport for BJP..?
UP and Bihar seem to be much more responsive to Modi than I had imagined.. Any chance of covert understanding between BJP-RJD in Bihar and BJP- BSP in UP..?

reddy said...

Thanks for your reply.

I was just curious and sometimes confused at the pace of your questions.

Anyway, we all love Prasun and I want his abilities to be used for the betterment of Indian Defences from the Citizen's POV.

The reason I often stress is, we lack strategy in our new borrowed culture for the last few hundred years(am not forgetting Chanakya) and our reactive thinking (not being proactive).

A person like Prasun and his abilities in terms of studying the subject, comprehension, thinking and analysis and these can be used in a better way by not derailing the subject/task and there by we all can be focused on some strategic point/ maintain strategic thinking/nature.

By asking questions that are of no value and only to satisfy our egos over pakis and chinese, it serves no real purpose and often we find ourselves along with pakis in terms of thinking.

As usual, at the end, it is upto Mr.Prasun what he chooses best.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To BHASWAR: What exactly can it do, when its own ‘Muslim’ brothers like Libya & Iran deserted it as far back as 2004 when they admitted that Pakistan had engaged in nuclear proliferation & later the infamous Dr Abdul Qadeer ‘Bhopali’ Khan made his own disclosures in which China’s & DPRK’s roles in nuclear WMD proliferation finally came out in the open domain? What exactly does one do when one becomes an international paraiah? Where can it run to & how can it hide?

To SAURAV JHA: That Pakistan’s economy is already in ICU is beyond doubt. The IP pipeline is now under a dark cloud since Mian Mohd Nawaz Sharif will never be able to overcome the pressures from Saudi Arabia, the UAE & Qatar. In fact, several level-headed Pakistani analysts have already reached this conclusion & have publicly voiced them as well. Baluchistan’s internal turmoil has less to do with India & more to do with Afghanistan. Pakistan has officially stated that the BLA’s footsoldiers are controlled by their Kandahar-based leadership. India’s support to Baluch nationalists is limited to only moral & humanitarian support. In addition, if you were to visit Quetta or Dalbandin you will be able to see for yourself how all the Afghan druglords that are supported by the Pakistan Army & its non-state militias like the Lashkar-e-Jhangvi & Jaish-e-Mohammad have built luxurious villas/mansions in those areas by forcibly evicting the local Hazara/Pashtun inhabitants.
AAP is still at best a localised party sans any regional or national agenda & is therefore capable of winning only civic elections at best. BJP will definitely emerge as the single largest winner in Delhi. The NaMo factor will definitely make regional parties like RJD, BSP, BJD, TMC & AIADMK gravitate towards the NDA alliance, for at the national level, there is widespread disenchantment & disillusionment due to mis-governance, indecisiveness & a declining economy.

To REDDY: VMT indeed for your caring sentiments & they’re always deeply appreciated. Talking about grand strategies, it MAY NOT come as a surprise to you that at a seminar held in Delhi yesterday that was attended by former diplomats, former bureaucrats, ex-spooks & some senior journalists, quite a few of them actually had the gumption to say that India has thus far done quite well without a codified or articulated grand strategy!!!
Sometimes, it is indeed worthwhile to be accommodating in order to patiently explain the background & contextualise the developments, since these are not being done by the country’s print/electronic media & consequently the average discerning citizen/netizen is bound to miss the woods for the trees. The perfect example of such a scenario is that of the spike in cross-LoC firings/infiltrations, with everyone wanting to know why these are happening & what will the end-state be.

Anonymous said...


1. How Al-Khalid fares with T-90s of ours.
Can we defeat enemy's aggression??
Arjun can defeat Al-Khalid i hope but what about T-72s and T-90s

2. I also heard that Pakistan's tank numbers are much more than ours and also have a large inventory ATGMs. Is it true??

3. When is Prahaar to be inducted in our inventory?

4. Do you think India can fight two front war?? Are our forces ready??

Shiv Anand

Samar said...

Prasun Sir,

I have been a regular reader of your wonderful and informative blog.

I have a query could you please inform us about the status of NAL Saras plane. I feel if NAl is not able to design a small plane how they are dreaming of 90-100 seater big planes?

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