The table below, based on data released by the IAF HQ and ADA, gives the actual estimated service-induction timelines for the Tejas Mk1 and Tejas Mk2 MRCAs and was published by FORCE's DEFEXPO 2014 Special 08-02-2014 on page 16. The Hon. RM A K Antony will therefore be well-advised to refer to this table the next time the MoD wants to blurt out the kind of notional IOC/FOC timelines that have been announced since February 2011!
172 comments:
Prasun,
But why this drastic decision of dropping RAN-40L in favour of RAWL for P-71A? Please dont tell me it has something to do with AW-101 case!
Nothing has been dropped. That is a 'Made in India' scale-model & therefore, obviously there are anomalies on its construction. When a 'phoren' scale-model will be outsourced, all such inaccuracies will disappear.
Dear Prasun,
What you have presented reg Defexpo 2014 is a lot of info on lot of products. Would you like to present us some sort of summary on our DRDO Product maturities and rise in technical expertise of DRDO etc?
Thanks.
for those criticizing DRDO pls look into this.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2558206/MoD-biggest-equipment-deals-6-1bn-budget-running-woefully-late.html
ofcourse am not saying DRDO is doing good by referencing it to others. We should improve more.. technological maturity takes time... but we should improve in other critical areas such as project management etc ... as we see this deficiency in scorpene deals.... in addition to mitigating corruption..
@Prasun da
after last weeks visit I came to the blog today what happened to the caustic rants by #Mr Phil and the rebuttals by others, seems you have removed them.
BTW a desi journalist did mention this
http://defenceexpress.blogspot.in/2014/02/indian-pilot-successfully-lands-mig-29k.html
If you ask me i say JVPC looks much better than MCIWS, after all why go with different calibers in battle, its like if you see one target select one caliber if you see another bigger target select another caliber, changing caliber may take time but the enemy wont give user the time.
Still dont uderstand why cant indian companies make tank mine ploughs
ajaishukla in his blog whatever said about Pushpindar Singh it points out that air forces across the world are replacing some 3,500 MiG-21, Mirage-III, early model F-16 and F-5. As such LCAmk1 has good export potential it means not just as a LIFT but a fighting jet.
As you say C130J-SH may be ordered in place of Avro748, but then again 56 is real small number to make from scratch.
Also i believe C47 production line will follow too. We need dozens of them.
Also with 2 kilos gone and avg. 6 on duty do you still feel boosting Scorpene line with 3 will suffice for shortfall in no. with SSNs no where in sight (i think even if design finalized production starts they cant be rolled out before 2025)
thanks
Joydeep Ghosh
Indian Navy screwed up big time in terms of getting new ones and in terms of maintaining old ones. First One is due to corruption and mismanagement and next one is due to un-professionalism and carelessness on the part of Navy. Shameless, they lost complete sub in peacetime.
They deserve this.
On the other hand IAF got screwed bigtime with un-necessary and utter non-sensicsal MMRCA trails for prolonged periods. They should have restricted to EF Typhoon and Rafale. Agian un-professionalism and mismanagement in every step. Am not forgetting AW-101 episode.
Needless to say about IA where corruption is rampant and Russian lobby is strongest. One retd major can go directly into Army Chief's office with 14 crores bribe?? Can we expect this in US?
HAL is another blackhole in defence PSUs.
Why did AP MPs create such a mess in parliament today? Because their concerns have not been addressed properly right from start and infact the basis for Telangana is perfectly RIGHT and forms the basis to create North East and South India as separate countries.
Dear Prasunda,
Did India approach US for buying any excess defence article from Afghanistan pull out? Was there any request made? Is anything even in the pipeline?
The US MRAPs in Afghanistan can stand heavier roadside IEDs while our MPV, built by OFB under licence from Casspir, can't even take more than 21kg of mine whereas naxalites are putting 80kg ones. So why not buy some of these equipment especially when they are EDA and dirt cheap?
Thanks
Hello Prasun ,From the Pictures you have posted the Mine Plough from Pearson weigh 1.5 T.
Arjun Mk2 weighs as per specs released at Defexpo 68T , without plough it should be 66.5T.
Arjun Mk1 weighs 58.5 T , what accounts for the additional 10 T gain in weight ?
Thanks
To MESSENGER: I'm working on that write-up based on the proceedings of the various conferences & seminars that were conducted during the expo. You will recall that in the previous thread, SPANKY's BLOG/SWAROP had posted a similar query/request.
To AUSTIN: Arjun M1's fully loaded weight inclusive of TWMP, ammo stowage & twin external fuel tanks is 62.5 tonnes. To this if one adds the ERA tiles weighing 1.5 tonnes, additional internal vectronics-related wire harnesses, re-engineered track wheels & hydropneumatic suspensions, the overall fully loaded weight goes up to about 68 tonnes. Thus, the additional weight is accounted for by ERA tiles, TWMP, re-engineered automotives & lastly additional vectronics.
To JOYDEEP GHOSH: The ‘desi’ journalist picked up the story from Russian sources, i.e. a third-party story. She could definitely have approached the DPR of IN & acquired much more data of the type I had written about. I guess these ‘desi’ news-reporters are too lazy to do their homework & couldn’t be bothered to educate the masses with a comprehensive report. That’s the only reason they get on my nerves! JVPC is a carbine, MCIWS & Trichy Assault Rifle are assault-rifles—huge difference between assault-rifles & carbines. Of course Indian OEMs can make demining hardware. The CMT-72 is one prime example. Regarding HS-748 Avro replacements, no one from MoD or IAF wants the selected model to be indigenized from scratch. They are reqd to only be licence-assembled at an initial stage, with select sub-systems, components & structures being built from raw materials in-county. C-47? That’s the military version of the DC-3 Dakota!!!
To KITTU: I agree with you on M-MRCA competition. The bids should have been restricted to only twin-engined platforms.
To AK: No MRAP in existence can withstand high-yield IEDs comprising a cluster of 155mm artillery shells all strapped together. Several MRAPs were lost in Iraq with such IEDs & were clearly shown in the Hollywood movie THE HURT LOCKER.
@joydeep ghosh,
Not that I am a military man but I don't think the idea behind a multi-caliber weapon is to switch barrels mid battle. Cost savings, standardization, optimization of resources/technology/assembly line are the obvious drivers. What caliber a soldier selects likely is driven by the mission. In any case, if you are questioning the rationale, from a functional standpoint, of trying to use a jack of all type gun as opposed to a specialized one, I think you have a good point. The whole design theory behind the F-35 aircraft is ample proof that trying to fit one design for all scenarios, in the name of savings or optimization, may not always be a good idea. One aircraft for the airforce, navy, marine corps....huge mistake, in hindsight (always 20-20)
Re C-47 I think you meant C-27, Spartan.
Prasunda,
Its not C-47 or C-27 but as you already know the CH-47F helo manufacturing line may move to India. Boeing mentioned that they wanted to make India hub of parts manufacturing.
I wonder how true that report was though!!
@Prasun da, @sathead3
my bad
actually i meant the CH47 Chinooks of which we need dozens
@Kris thanks for correcting the mistake.
as for making C130J-SH from scratch what i meant was to setup a greenfield project to license assemble 56 planes with components made in india, for that the number is too small.
BTW your silence on my question about adding just 3 more Scorpenes and that SSNs are nowhere is sight till 2025 makes me believe i am right. i say so bcoz first of all the new reactor will be designed and run a full circle (onshore perhaps) while the SSN design is finalized. next the reactor has to fit in and run another course only then the 1st SSN will float. case for 10 yr ich.
BTW i have a question what is the life of the Ur rods on Arihant & ChakraII
thanks
Joydeep Ghosh
Dear Prasunda,
1. How do the Bharat 52 gun stand against other 155/52 cal guns like Denel or BAE or Rheinmetall ones? In terms of range,fire rate and ease of handling, will they be adequate for IA? Why do other scholars keep mentioning that its a 20-30 year old technology and not equal to even OFB Dhanush technology?
2. Kalyani seems to be making ultra light howitzers too? But the posters look a bit different than the M777 guns. Will there be much quality difference?
3. Will it be possible to install a ULH gun on Tata Kestrel to make it a SPH wheeled gun? Will the frame be able to stand the pressure of gun fire? Will the mobility be affected?
4. Is there any chance of Arjun hull being mated with any of these Indian manufactured guns for SPH tracked requirement? L&T is looking to fulfill it with Samsung guns. Wondering whether this solution is feasible and whether it will work?
6. Kalyani also came up with 105mm gun on Humvee type light vehicles? The idea seems unique for shoot and scoot. Has there been any curiosity about it?
Thanks
What is weight of helina missile ?
Prasunda,
I have following queries about MCIWS ->
1.Is 500 m range applicable to all three types of ammunition?
2.Can MCIWS accept 7.62*51 mm ammunition?
3.Can MCIWS perform the role of sniper rifle & LMG?
4. What is the practical use of 6.8 mm ammunition? Is it the ammunition for the future?
5. Can 5.56 mm hollow point charge munition answer for stopping power of 7.62*39 mm? If yes, can IA adopt the same?
6. Is quoted range of 400 meters for 40 mm grenade, for point target or area target?
Regards
Nikhil
prasun da.. What 'll be the colour scheme of ah64d apache in iaf?? And any updates on army's apache procurement??
Prasun Da ,
Given the fact that DPSUs rule the roost in India do you think private Indian companies while partnering with foreign OEMs have a chance to be selected against the DPSUs under the existing laws ?
There is a perception that one way for such partnerships to gain advantage (over DPSUs) is to focus on technologies that are either absent or still evolving in the Indian market. This 'First-In-The-Market' strategy will be a good way to future market leadership.
Another way will be to offer customized, mission-specific technologies that have an open architecture, compatible with evolving modernization plans. This way international technologies can be optimized into 'Indian-Defense-Variants' to meet specific military requirements.
As always , will look forward to your profound insights .
Thanks ,
Vikram
Prasunda,
Why the EOFCS developed by IRDE and optronic system developed by VEM Technologies look same?
Also exactly how many Type-877EKM boats are stuck at HSL? I thought only INS Sindhukirti is there, but recently came across one article claiming actually two such SSKs are berthed at HSL.
Thanks
To KRIS: Not the entire CH-47F production facility, but just those of some of its sub-systems. Reasonm for that is very simple: the total estimated reqmt for CH-47F-type helicopters for the IAF is about 60 units—just about enough to financially justify a licenced-assembly & complete depot-level MRO facility, but not complete localized manufacture.
To RAVI: It WILL be close to 50kg.
To NIKHIL: All your queries are easily answered by the data posted on the brochures above.
To SUMIT SEN: That depends on where the AH-64Ds will be located & on which theatre they will be employed. They can come either in desert camouflage like the Israeli AH-64s, or even in low-visibility grey like the Mi-25/Mi-35P.
To VIKRAM GUHA: 1) Absolutely not, because the exchange rate variation mechanism as it now exists prevents private-sector companies from making fixed-price offers. Only the DPSUs are all protected against exchange rate variations. What this means is that even if a private-sector company emerges as L-1, it will definitely stand to make a loss while implementing the contract. ‘First-in-the-Market’ strategy cannot be successfully exploited when competitive bidding is resorted to. In addition, innovation & creativity are always frowned upon by officialdom. After all, look what a ‘tamasha’ was played out by the country’s ‘desi’ press-corps in vilifying the ISRO-DEVAS Multimedia project three years ago. In other words, unless existing regressive mindsets change profoundly & are followed by deep structural reforms, there’s no hope whatsoever of excellence in entrepreneurship.
To SHAW: Because the EOFCS was developed by IRDE & its production technologies were sold by the DRDO to VEM Technologies. Only one Type 877EKM SSK has been ripped apart by HSL to date & that SSK is a permanent writeoff. Sadly, the senior MoD officials & IN officers who were instrumental in allowing this sordid episode to take place have never been brought to book.
To RANJIT: 1) Care to identify exactly who these ‘scholars’ are? If that’s what they’re claiming, then they definitely are fully certified ULLU KA PATTHAS (disciples of owls) as well as—in Malayali—NAYANTAMONS (sons of dogs). And they certainly weren’t born in the 1980s. FYI the Bharat-52 owes its origins to the baseline 155mm/45-cal towed howitzer that was originally designed by the legendary ballistics expert, the late Dr Gerry Bull, in response to a contract awarded to him by China’s NORINCO in 1980. By 1983 the first prototypes were built for Dr Bull by Spain’s SANTA BARBARA & were successfully field-tested in China’s Shenyang MR & opposite Mongolia, following which NORINCO began series-producing them. This very same design was then also sold by Dr Bull (who owned its IPRs) to ARMSCOR of South Africa & it was mass-produced as the GC-45. Again, the very same design was sold by Dr Bull to Austria’s NORICUM & was produced as the GHN-45, which incidentally was the most-favoured design by the Indian Army in 1985 since it was then the only available 155mm/45-cal towed howitzer among all other contenders for the IA’s order for 1,440 such guns. Despite this, the MoD in April 1986 selected the Bofors FH-77B, which was a 155mm/39-cal towed howitzer. Fast-forwarding to today, in terms of sophistication of vectronics & proven metallurgy, the 52-cal Bharat-52 easily outranks the 45-cal Dhanush—facts which cannot be disputed.
2) Those are just paper designs. No prototypes exist.
3) Of course it can be done, but what for?
4) Arjun’s hull can easily accommodate the already-tested & validated T-6 turret (containing a 155mm/52-cal barrel) from DENEL Land Systems, which is known as the Bhim SPH. And since DENEL has already been removed from the MoD’s blacklist, there are no more legal obstacles stranding in the way of the Bhim SPH to be committed to series-production.
6) Prior to that, TATA Power SED two years ago at DEFEXPO 2012 had already mounted the OFB-made 105mm LFG on one of its trucks.
Govt of India has approved the setting up of semiconductor wafer plants by two consortia, including IBM Corp, Israel's TowerJazz and ST Microelectronics NV, costing a total of Rs 63,410 crore. India, which wants local production of chips to cut long-term import bills, has renewed a drive to attract investments after a previous attempt failed. The two groups had proposed building plants in India in September 2013. One of the consortia is made up of Jaiprakash Associates Ltd and TowerJazz and IBM. It plans to set up a plant near New Delhi at a cost of Rs 34,399 crore, a government statement said on February 14. The second comprises HSMC Technologies India Pvt Ltd, Malaysia's Silterra and ST Microelectronics. The group has proposed investment of Rs 290,13 crore for a plant in Gujarat, the statement said. The final agreements for the two plants are expected to be signed by August 2014. With a view to attract chipmakers to set up plants in India, the government is offering concessions including 25% subsidy on capital spending, tax breaks, and interest-free loans of about Rs 5,124 crore to each plant. India's demand for electronics products is forecast to rise nearly 10 times during this decade to reach $400 billion by 2020, causing policy makers to worry that electronics imports, with no major local manufacturing, could exceed those of oil.
http://www.business-standard.com/article/economy-policy/govt-approves-two-semiconductor-wafer-plants-worth-10-billion-114021400651_1.html
To JOYDEEP GHOSH:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Indian-arms-dealer-on-CBI-radar-held-in-UK-Rolls-Royce-bribery-case/articleshow/30425260.cms
Dear Prasun,
Does Indian Navy simulate an attack by enemy forces on eastern and western front simultaneously and evaluate how does it respond to such threats?
Prasunda,
Why India never considered constituting US-DARPA like set up. I think this (lack) makes us go for things which were already developed or conceived in 70s or 80s. Given that we have a lot of younsters coming up in tech field and some experienced retired people in select areas, is it not worthwhile to explore such a set up. I think as a society we love to live in the nostalgia and does not look boldly ahead into 10-20 years.
Sreenivas. R
Thank You PrasunDa
This means Private Defense companies like Pipavav , L&T etc hardly have any future in India because of biased methods adopted by MoD in awarding contracts.
I was hoping that with companies like Reliance , TATA etc coming forward in this field probably MoD would be fair in it's approach . Unfortunately it seems it hasn't happened .
Thanks again ,
Vikram
Prasunda,
Its not about the comparison between Dhanush 45 cal and Kalyani 52 cal which has been discussed by some authors (Sorry for not naming them as you already have shown your opinion of them).
As per them:
1. Kalyani Bharat 52 has a 20-30 year old technology while BAE F77B52 gun or Denel 52 cal guns have 4th generation technology which is supposed to be advanced.
2. In terms of salvo firing, scooting capability, sustained firing and effective range, BAE and Denel guns are far superior. In fact, Denel is claiming to be able to fire upto 50km with normal base bleed shells while with VLAP the range is even more.
3. BAE considers itself superior to all other existing competitors, especially Israeli inspired ones. Apparently, in all previous Indian towed gun competitions BAE has topped. Its previous gun Bofors 39 cal is also battle proven.
My concern is if IA chose Bharat 52 for towed gun, TATA for MGS, BHIM for SPH and BAE for ULH, the logistical nightmare would be horrible. Can you imagine BAE, DENEL and Kalyani guns all in the same armed force?
How can IA ensure that it gets the best gun while also keeping its logistical tail simple and efficient?
Thanks and sorry for stretching the topic.
To SUREN: Of course. This is all routine contingency planning & all scenarios are routinely wargamed both on tactical training simulators as well as during exercises involving live-firing missile-launch drills.
To SREENIVAS R: DARPA-like institutions are suitable only in those countries that have attained comprehensive technological & military-industrial maturities. In India’s case, the DRDO exists primarily for R & D on emerging technologies as well as devising the processes required for producing weapons on an industrial scale. Its mandate is therefore totally different from that of DARPA.
To VIKRAM GUHA: As they say, seeing is believing. Any visitor to DEFEXPO 2014 would have easily noticed the exhibit architecture that was evolved by the MoD. For instance, the INDIA PAVILION at the expo site contained only the DRDO & DPSU pavilions. All other Indian OEMs from the private-sector were accommodated in other halls & were all mixed-up with foreign participating OEMs. Now, what does this tell anyone? Simply that the private-sector OEMs of India are treated as ‘Achoots’ (untouchables) by India’s MoD. Need I go any further to explain just how shabbily the private-sector is treated by the MoD?
BTW, have just uploaded a new set of posters/brochures above. Kindly pay close attention to the service-induction table for Tejas Mk1/Mk2 MRCAs.
To RANJIT: My dear ol’chap, you’ve just moved the goalpost by earlier asking me about the Bharat-52 versus the Dhanush & now about the Bharat-52 versus the FH-77B05L52. Nevertheless, kindly let me explain matters further. 1) In which areas exactly is the Bharat-52 lagging behind the FH-77B05L52? Can anyone be more specific? For those who don’t bother to get into the details, the Bharat-52 has been & is further being developed in cooperation with ELBIT Systems, which also owns SOLTAM Systems. What one therefore has are two metallurgical giants pooling their respective resources to come up with a new-generation 155mm/52-cal howitzer. Furthermore, ELBIT Systems is an acknowledged global market leader in vectronics, which BAE Systems o9r DENEL Land Systems ain’t. Consequently, to sum up, the Kalyani Group/ELBIT Systems consortium is in every sense of the term FAR MORE SUPERIOR when compared to the likes of BAE Systems or DENEL Land Systems. 2) Claims on marketing brochures become totally irrelevant when weapon systems are field-tested by a potential end-user in one’s own country over diverse types of terrain & altitudes. For instance, even without base-bleed rounds, the IA’s existing Bofors FH-77B05L39 can easily fire rounds out to a range of 41km when fired from fire-bases located in Kargil. VLAP rounds are available globally from several OEMs, not just from DENEL, & therefore one doesn’t need howitzers only from DENEL to fire VLAP rounds. 3) And yet how many countries have bought the FH-77B05L39 & FH-77B05L52 outside Sweden to date? Only India & Nigeria. And how many countries have to date bought the GC-45, GHN-45 & its NORINCO-produced variant & that too by the thousands? The answer: Austria, China, Iraq, Oman, Spain, South Africa, & Thailand. So, in terms of sales track-record, the Bharat-52’s predecessors still stand unbeatable. Surely no one can argue with such facts.
If your concern is about the logistical nightmare, then there’s only one remedy, something which I have been recommending since late 1999: in an era of manoeuvre warfare, there’s simply no room for towed field howitzers. And if one were to then choose between tracked & motorised howitzers, I will definitely go for the latter (MGS) as the cheaper but equally lethal option. In conclusion, the Caesar mounted on an Ashok Leyland truck is the optimum choice. But all this should have been made known by IA HQ to all OEMs—local & foreign—way back in 2002 itself after OP Parakram, when the IA learnt some valuable lessons on manoeuvre warfare in the subcontinent. Had this been done, then by now India’s private-sector OEMs would have been more focussed in terms of developing ingenious indigenous solutions.
sir You just pulled the dhoti off of mr Raksha Mantri by uploading the Tejas IOC time line. He literally is a joker who wasted precious time being a defense minister.
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/385482/india-manufacture-indigenous-submarines-soon.html
what's your say on this?
regards
To DASHU: Ooooops! Ouch! But what else can I do? Old habits die hard, as you well know. By the way, this very table was splashed across the Show dailies published & distributed during DEFEXPO 2014.
To ABHAY JAIN: A most laughable story indeed. Why? Because DMR-249A and 249B steel, equivalent to Russian AB2 grade steel that went into manufacturing of Project 71/IAC-1, was supplied by ESSAR Steel. For submarines, Alloy Steels Plant (ASP) of SAIL has produced for the first time in India a special grade steel (DMR-292A). The high-strength and low-temperature item was manufactured according to the specifications developed by Hyderabad-based Defence Metallurgical Research Laboratory of DRDO. DMR-292A will be processed into plates through Rourkela Steel Plant (RSP) directly or via Bokaro Steel Plant before supply to DMRL for further testing. Conclusion: S-2/Arihant, S-3 & S-5 nuclear-powered submarines are all being built from imported steel & titanium.
Prasun,
What is the thinking behind going for both the foreign multi-cal assault rifle and the MCIWS (which you have said you are 1000% will enter service)? I mean they seem like directly conflicting purchases and seem to be mutually exclusive.
What's the need to go for the foreign rifles now, why not just wait until the MCIWS is ready for full scale production?
This is so ironic.
Air India is selling five of its eight Boeing 777-200 LR aircraft to Etihad. All of these aircrafts are only 7 years old and have more than 40,000 hours of TTSL left on their airframe. Etihad is no fool if its buying five of them only for 70 million each.
Compare it with Indian Air Force, who is buying six Airbus A330 MRTT tanker for USD $ 1.35 billion for its fighters. A-330 can only carry 111 thousand liters of fuel along with other loads. Boeing 777 would be able to carry 181 thousand liters of fuel with other load.
Boeing had offered this aircraft to US Air Force as tanker but didn't get selected because USAF wanted a smaller version as they already have a bigger version. So they opted for Boeing 767. Israeli Company Bedek can easily convert these planes into tankers for minimal amount.
If IAF opts for this, it would get eight tankers for USD 650 million which would easily serve for 40 years. Britishers, Brazilians are happy with these type of options but we are extra smart especially when we have no money to spend.
Alas! no one gives a damn to Indian taxpayer's money.
HAHAHA,
Prasunda,
Kudos to you for pulling RM's dhoti at the right time.
There seems no other way than establishing a parallel line of production if LCA has to be inducted in sufficient numbers. I hope the next government would look into it.
I was also quite perplexed reading the submarine manufacture report. Subs require HSLA 100 grade steel and I had read that ASP recently made that steel indigenously.So why would one make a sub with DMR 249 steel, didn't cut the ice.
Wonder is, how do these morons end up publishing these factually incorrect, badly researched articles in newspapers. What are their editors doing?
Hi Prasun
The chinese recently sent a flotilla of 3 ships to thru the straits of sunda in indonesian waters and went back thru the bali strait to show india and the US that they cannot blockade the Chinese .
Is the straits a part of indonesia , why are they allowing the chinese right of passage?. Will they do so in a time of crisis . If in case 20 nautical miles is the exclusive territory of any nation maritime , then how come Indonesia is keeping silent .
Now how do we blockade this area.?
Please post pics of the MSMC if you took pics of them in the expo, i am really curious.
Why are we gong in for conventional radars on ships when the trend is to go for Pesa or aesa radars?.Could you please explain the details of the vikrmaditya circular radar?.Did we get some israeli help for the 120mm APSD rounds?. Why is there no talk of active protection systems on the arjun. They cant be so stupid and naive not get that on board!
Why did they rip apart the kilos? to see deeper details that would help them in gaining tech? why cant we ask the ruskies to put it back?
Dear prasun das ji Here is a interesting history channel documentary video comparing SU30mki and Rafale with F22 raptor with B1 bomper in a dog fight, is it possible to do that? Please after watching (Readers also) give a feed back thank you link
www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEgIJLb2hdc
MCIWS rifle looks well balanced and a neat piece of kit. The question is how reliable are they (MCIWS rifles) in the field? Are they easy to maintain and keep in good working order?
Dear Prasun,
Rafale' Snecma M88 engine just produces
Dry thrust of 50.04 kN (11,250 lbf) each and Thrust with afterburner of 75.62 kN (17,000 lbf) each. Is it good for a 4.5 generation aircraft? How will it stand during dog fight against its compatriot? What is the model of Indian version of Rafale (B or C)???
VMT PrasunDa
Unless the criminals who run this incompetent Govt are weeded out for good I do not see any salvation in sight .
As you rightly point out our's is a Refusing to Develop country .
Thanks again .
Vikram
To LINKIN: It’s primarily an issue of conflicting time-factors: the IA wants MCIWS-type weapons to enter service concurrently with the introduction of F-INSAS gear, since an operational Division has already been earmarked for this purpose as a battle laboratory of sorts. Consequently, the compromise formula worked out is to import only the quantum for this one field formation, while the remaining 95% of the reqmts can be met through domestically developed products & solutions.
To AK: Again, the main issue here is that of flight certification. Had the B.777 been selected by the USAF, then there would have been no problem at all in converting civilian B.777s into MILSPEC aerial refuelling tankers, since CEMILAC & IAF HQ would both have endorsed the USAF’s & Boeing airworthiness certification parameters. Since that did not happen & the USAF chose the B.767 instead, it will by all accounts be a financially backbreaking exercise for both the IAF & CEMILAC to evolve an airworthiness certification process on their own for an aerial refuelling version of the B.777, even with Boeing’s assistance. Far better, therefore, to go for a product that has already been flight-certified as an MRTT by its OEM. To just give you an idea of exactly how difficult a task it is to flight-certify an aircraft in the commercial category, just look at the SARAS experience: even after more than a decade of tinkering around, the SARAS has yet to receive its certification of airworthiness from either CEMILAC or DGCA.
To RAD: Those PLAN exercises were conducted along the Lombok Straits during peacetime. In wartime, it will be a totally different ballgame, rest assured. Furthermore, Sunda, Lombok & Malacca Straits are mandated by UNCLOS to be free from naval blocades as they’re international sea lanes of communication, even if the waters of these straits happen to come under any archipelagic country’s maritime jurisdiction in territorial terms. MSMC wasn’t shown at DEFEXPO 2014, only MCIWS family & Trichy Assault Rifle were. MSMC’s brochures were uploaded 2 years ago in the DEFEXPO 2012 thread. Already explained thrice before in previous threads that the circular structure atop the INS Vikramaditya’s island houses the LORAN suite. Starting with P-17A FFGs & P-15A DDGs, all future principal surface combatants of the IN will have APAR installations. The next big challenge is the introduction of integrated masts housing APAR-based L-band, S-band & X-band radars. Thus far, only RAYTHEON & THALES have achieved such a feat. Maybe IAI/ELTA too will in the near future come up with such integrated masts & when this happens, the IN for sure will opt for this package. All types of 120mm rounds for IA have been developed 100% in-house by the DRDO. No foreign help was ever sought or acquired or supplied. I fully agree with you that APS installation on Arjun is a far better choice than the 1.5-tonne ERA package. That the Type 877EKM SSK was ripped apart in Vizag by HSL without even consulting the SSK’s designer & OEM is indeed a scandal that has not yet been successfully analysed or exposed by the ‘desi’ press-corps. But the truth will eventually come out, rest assured.
To SARAN: That dogfight is not a realistic scenario at all, especially if the Su-30MK is pitted against the F/A-22 or the F-35 JSF. Today, the combination of cutting-edge ESM using non-cooperative target recognition mode of operation, passive IRST, HMDS & high-G sustaining WVRAAMs has totally ensured that dogfights of the type witnessed till the mid-1980s are never repeated again. Future aerial engagements will therefore be overwhelmingly of the beyond-visual-range type, especially with the proliferation of AEW & CS platforms for effective airborne battle management. All the gamechanging technologies will therefore be network-centric & the party that will have superior seamless network-centric technologies supported by correspondingly sophisticated & secure airborne SATCOM-based data-links, along with miniaturised directed-energy weapons for self-defence, will emerge as the victorious party.
To RAW13: Reliability of any weapon is the result of only three factors: simplicity of design, ruggedness of the hardware, & the proficiency of the end-user in terms of handling & maintaining such a weapon. All 3 are equally important.
To SOUBHAGYA: Kindly refer to the thread on the Rafale M-MRCA in February 2012 for all the data that you’ve asked for. And also refer to my answer above to SARAN regarding the issue of ‘dogfights’.
To RAJEEV CHATUVEDI & VIKRAM GUHA: Well, shit happens(!), as the saying goes. Kindly allow me to give you another shining example of how these ‘desi’ bhed-bakhras specialise in the art of misrepresenting the facts:
You may recall that CNN-IBN did a story on the evaluation trials of the LW-155/M-777 ultralightweight howitzer, which appeared at:
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/army-seeks-relaxation-to-procure-failed-gun/143302-3.html
According to this news-report, “BAE Systems’ gun has failed trials on several parameters. Parts of the leaked trial report, now the subject of an enquiry reportedly showed how the gun in the crucial Direct Firing trials, failed in both day and night. Its compatibility, according to the Firing Table set up by the Army, was once again a 'Fail'. In the Air Portability Trials, the BAE gun scored a zero on transportability by air. Transport by cargo, Para dropping the gun and a Heli Transport in a slung mode all showed up a 'Fail'. The sighting system that deals with night vision also showed a 'Fail' along with the Inbuilt Communication System.”
Now, here’s what really happened, which was revealed by the IA’s DG Artillery at a seminar in New Delhi in the middle of last year: The LW-155/M-777 ‘failed’ BECAUSE none of the trials were carried out at the altitudes stipulated by the IA’s field evaluation team. And why was this the case? Simply because the IAF refused to airlift the LW-155/M-777 with its Mi-26T heavylift helicopter in Sikkim. And why did the IAF refuse to do so? Simply because A) the Mi-26T is not certified to carry this weapon underslung & consequently the IAF does not have SOPs in place to carry out such a helilift operation; & B) the IAF therefore did not have in its possession the hooks & cables required for rigging the LW-155/M-777 to the Mi-26T in underslung configuration.
By now it must be evident to you all how important it is to contextualise any news-item by presenting facts, which in turn will lead us all towards grasping the truth. Instead, the very opposite is repeatedly taking place, which in turn gives a totally erroneous picture to the audience. And to top it all, certain internet chat-forums with retards-only membership policies (you know very well the ones I’m referring to) resort to what I call ‘the blind leading the blind’. Therefore, such moronic retards, be it ‘desi’ news-reporters or such chat-forum participants, are deviously mischievous & obviously can’t be friends or wellwishers of India.
Prasun Da ,
This is what happens when a country elects Playboys and college dropouts as Prime Ministers.
Fortunately Wendy Doniger has only questioned the size of our balls & not our brains .
Regards,
Vikram
Prasun,
VMT for your reply wrt the MCIWS. Why cannot the IA or GoI just articulate such ideas to the Indian people? The issue of needing a new small arms system now with thew F-INSAS with one of its divisions is perfectly logical however the restarts in the desi media have stated the foreign multi-cal rifle is to be come the STANDARD AR of the IA and will equip the entire 1.3 man IA and whats worse is the fools in such chit-chat forums are claiming this foreign mulit-cal rifle buy is a scam point blank whilst presenting 0 evidence to support this argument. They just say it is so and that has become the prevailing narrative unfortunately on such sites.
If only the MoD/IA could properly explain their procurements and plans in a comprehensive and clear way then all such rumours and nonsense would be dispelled.
To VIKRAM GUHA: Couldn't agree with you more (LoLz)!
To LINKIN: Of course these are all articulated & explained during seminars. One just has to take the trouble to do one's homework & attend such events. If I can do it, why can't others? After all, I'm not some 'farishta' (divine angel) that's parachuted from heaven, but am just another ordinary human being! Perhaps they're far too lazy or moronic to do so, I guess.
To VIKRAM GUHA: Later this week, I will share with you all some horrific information about the state of merchant marine shipping industry in India that will expose once & for all that all this talk of attracting FDI into India is utter baloney. While India's Ministry of Shipping has been twidling its thumbs for the past two decades, Sri Lanka between 2009 and now has emerged as the IOR's largest & most efficient transshipment hub. All containers headed for & from India are now transshipped from Colombo Port, which has been aggressively expanded & upgraded by China. Even for bunkering facilities, Colombo & Hambantota are the favoured destinations. No one wants to go to any Indian port for bunkering or transshipment since 1) the ports-based Customs & Excise officials are corrupt to the core & 2) Indian ports are the most expensive in the whole world when it comes to offering such facilities. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. Small wonder therefore that China is now extremely anxious to enlist India's cooperation in ensuring maritime security not only for its investments in Sri Lanka, but also for the IOR as a whole.
PrasunDa ,
As always would eagerly wait for your interesting narrative on the Maritime Industry to be uploaded .
It's no secret that with the rampant corruption major A&D companies like THALES , BAE etc have dropped all expansion plans in India and from what I heard during Defexpo they have lost interest in bidding for any projects in India and are now focused on the Middle East & Singapore .
Very soon just like SriLanka even Myanmar will become a better port that any Indian ports .
Best ,
Vikram
Why nobody except you (and me) is bothered about the instant solution to be provided by Caesar mounted on an Ashok Leyland truck as the optimum choice.
To VIKRAM GUHA: During DEFEXPO 2014, all OEMs--local & foreign--had only two observations to make on the procurement scene:
1) Matters are moving excruciatingly slow in 2013-2014; &
2) There's still no clarity from all the DPPs published so far about the future roadmap for enhancing India's military-industrial infrastructure.
To Mr.RA 13: Entrenched regressive mindsets of institutions (like Army HQ) & the inability of the MoD to issue comprehensive & articulated war directives has led to unhealthy guessing games since 1999 between the MoD & Armed Service HQs about how exactly to go about enhancing India's conventional war-waging capabilities against a nuclear overhang--from both doctrinal & operational standpoints.
Interesting reads:
http://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2014-02/deterring-dragon-under-sea
http://news.usni.org/2014/02/05/china-will-field-subs-nuke-alaska-hawaii-year
http://www.defensenews.com/article/20140113/DEFREG03/301130032/1001/DEFSECT
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2014/02/04/work-begins-on-sub-that-wont-hit-fleet-until-2030.html
http://www.dodbuzz.com/2014/01/28/dods-top-weapons-buyer-disputes-p-8-audit/
http://thediplomat.com/2014/01/submarines-in-southeast-asia-proliferation-not-a-race/
http://news.usni.org/2014/01/21/navy-considering-new-five-inch-guided-round-surface-ships
http://news.usni.org/2014/01/23/navys-next-air-war
http://news.usni.org/2014/01/17/navys-next-generation-radar-future-electronic-attack-abilities
http://defensetech.org/2014/01/16/navy-rail-gun-showing-promise/
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/awx_01_12_2014_p0-653887.xml&guid=2014-01-12
http://www.navytimes.com/article/20140112/NEWS04/301120007
http://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenthompson/2014/01/06/lasers-could-prove-crucial-to-navy-survival-in-the-western-pacific/
http://swampland.time.com/2013/12/22/navy-underwater-drone/?xid=rss-topstories
To Mr.RA 13: At a time when the world's major navies are well on the way to embracing 155mm/52-cal naval guns as standard fit & then graduating on to electromagnetic rail-guns, the IN is still tinkering with the idea of importing 127mm naval guns!!!
If you recall, I had stated immediately after DEFEXPO 2012 itself that the DRDO should team up with either BAE Systems or NEXTER Systems for co-developing 155mm/52-cal naval guns & then graduating on to explore electromagnetic rail-gun options. But, it seems, no one is bothered to read the writings on the wall!
Here are two excellent documentaries from NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC on two world-class ports: Singapore & China’s Yangshan Port:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZyBWa3PRtQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh_YEORzB-I
Prasunda,
Thanks for your response.
BTW,
1. What is your opinion of the KJ-2000, KJ-500 and KJ-200 aircrafts of China? How good is the radar which is atop these aircrafts? Chinese bloggers claim that these are even better than Phalcons as during the negotiations with Israelis, they had got all blueprints and sketches of the aircraft which was denied later.
2. What is your view on China's AESA capability? There are some academic opinions mentioning that Chinese are so good that they even offered Russians some avionics on Sukhois. Is there some truth in that?
3. Almost everyone from outside including Chinese enthusiasts claim that J-20 and J-31 are fifth generation stealth aircrafts. However, the Chiense aircraft company itself claims that they are fourth generation. Is there a mismatch between perspectives? Is their fourth gen is not what we call fourth gen or we are missing something?
4. Its also a matter of amusement for some Chinese bloggers that Indians are stuck with Elta 2248 radar with 200+ km scan capability and LR-SAM with 120 km air defence. While Chinese DDGMs and other ships have more than 600km of AEGIS class radars and HHQ-9 SAMs which can hit about 400-600km.
Its bit doubtful for me to accept this claim as HHQ-9 is inspired from Russian S-300 SAMs. And if Israelis went for LR-SAM with DRDO, they must have some different requirements to develop these missiles. Why would DRDO develop a less range capable missile when it can easily get S-300 from Russians and its naval version?
Please enlighten me on this because there are so many angles which are getting fuzzed.
Thanks and best regards
Prasun da,
As per the reports you have posted in this blog, the MoD will order/procure in total 650000 assault + close quarter battle carbines.
On the other hand they are also developing MCIWS.
I believe 6.5 lakhs rifles will be sufficient enough to equip all IA infantry units. So what is the use of MCIWS - will be issued to paramilitary, police force of India. Please enlighten us on this matter.
Prasun da,
I have a confusion about the JVPC and MSMC.Are both the carbine one and the same or 2 different carbines and what is there present status? Are they being inducted into the army or still in their trial phase?
VMT in advance.
@Prasun da
http://idrw.org/?p=33690#more-33690
the timetable you posted and this news says mk2 will be delayed further
BTW why there is a dead weight (lead plates) in LCA mk1, does it hamper performance
want to know when ur rods of Arihant, Chakra 2 will be replaced
Sudhir Choudhary has been arrested for crime in UK, hope it doesnt relate to India and doesnt delay any weapons deal
BTW whatever Mr Pushpinder Singh said about LCA mk1, is it viable
thanks
Joydeep Ghosh
Prasunda,
What is the story of K-100 missile? Is it under development? What about its induction schedule? Is there any other missile in its class?
Some of the Russian missiles are quite unique. For example, Brahmos, Kh-31P, K-100, KH-55 etc. How come western countries never matched them even when they claim their superiority in scientific areas?
Thanks
Prasun Da ,
(1) While you are totally right that DRDO should have teamd up with either BAE Systems or NEXTER Systems for co-developing 155mm/52-cal naval guns & then graduating on to explore electromagnetic rail-gun options will it now be possible to introduce 155mm/52 cal guns now because then I suppose the entire Ship will have to be redesigned ?
(2) Has the DRDO met with any succcess with it's Electromagnetic Pulse Weapon programs ?
VMT
Sujoy
Many years ago, well, at least 25 years ago, visited a DRDO lab in Pune and there was a proverbial "mad" scientist experimenting with an electro-magnetic rail gun. He said he had persuaded a private sector company in Pune to make him the special capacitors needed. Wonder where that project went ?
Prasun da,
While most weaponry (or platforms) are bought using competitive bidding, a user trial in different conditions are done. But i never heard such user trials for Submarines or Ships. Why is it that submarines (many times no working model also not yet available, and only design) and warship doesnot require trials, even though the OEM designs them for sea conditions relevant to their respective nations. Also why is it not mandatory that the 'platform should be part of the respective OEM's force' which usually applies.
another question, it seems that there is still some deliberations on P75i sub. at $10 Billion for six subs @ of $1.6 Billion/ sub, is it not better to buy SSN. Since the entire selection and building process is going to take same amount of time (14 years for scorpene, so we can expect that new lines might still take 10 years) and almost equal money ( i guess or is it much more), is it not better to buy a design and start building SSN.
Also i remember you saying that nations that have SSNs dont have SSKs (save for Russia perhaps), is it not better to scrap all the new SSK buying. if we are going to go for modern and potent force better go for SSN at 2 billion a peice (i guess) or if we are going for increase in number of SSK go for Kilos in large numbers ( i think atleast 20 Kilos will come in $10 Billion). Why to spend ~ 2 Billion on SSKs even if they may be of latest generation. I am not understanding what is Navy's logic in issuing the RFI even.
Sreenivas R
To MANOJ JOSHI: Yes, such a technology demonstration project did indeed exist & one of the bloggers had in fact highlighted this about two threads ago in this blog. However, since this was an in-house technology demonstration endeavour of the DRDO without the benefit of any supporting GSQR, NSQR or ASQR, the project never morphed into any ‘mission-mode’ weapons development effort. The tragic irony is that today the IN is seeking an imported E-MALS solution (using the same technologies as those applied for electromagnetic rail-guns) from US-based General Atomics for the projected IAC-2.
To SREENIVAS R: Good questions you’ve asked. For naval platforms, no country-specific user-trials are reqd because 1) such platforms are always designed & developed for operating in almost all types of marine environments & that’s why they have no problems whenever they undertake goodwill visits all over the world after traversing the high seas & oceans. 2) naval platforms unlike land-based or aerial platforms do not require accompanying land-based logistics footprints, i.e. they’re standalone platforms, & therefore in-country user-trials are not reqd for establishing the kind of logistics/support reqmts that are mandatory for land-based weapons platforms. 3) The only problems encountered by naval platforms usually are about on-board weapon systems & their supporting fire-control systems due to peculiar operating environments & this applies specifically to weapons of Soviet/Russian origin, since they were traditionally not tropicalised. The problematic Kashtan-M CIWS is one prominent example of this. Western OEMs, on the other hand, have had long experience in developing products optimised for diverse operating environments & are therefore found by navies at large to be better-positioned to offer ingenious solutions. As for the SSK versus SSN issue, for the sake of maintaining a balanced force-mix in lieu of the arrival of SSNs, the IN does need to procure at least 3 more Scorpenes without AIP. However, a parallel procurement effort for at least 9 SSNs needs to be initiated within this decade itself. The IN has so far been presented with 2 options: one from DCNS for the Barracuda & the other from Russia for an SSN derivative of the S-2/Arihant.
To SUJOY MAJUMDAR: Installation of 155mm/52-cal naval guns on board P-15B or P-17A FFGs won’t require radical redesigning of the warhips’ now/fore sections of the superstructure because most of the enhancements will be contained within the turret above-deck. The DRDO is developing an EMP-generating air-delivered PGM that will be similar in appearance to the JSOW.
To AK: The Russians had developed several PGMs during the Soviet era & most of what you see today was all developed by the late 1980s. The West never felt the need to match them because after the USSR’s breakup such weapons were not produced on an industrial scale for service-induction. Only after the mass-production of weapons like BrahMos-1 & China’s YJ-12 is the West now gearing up to play technology leapfrog by going straight for hypersonic cruise missiles.
To JOYDEEP GHOSH: There’s no delay whatsoever. That is what I have been explaining for the past two years in several Tejas-related threads. The entire R & D effort has to pass through various phases, stages & processes before being declared a fully operational & serviceable platform & that is exactly what’s happening. The PERCEPTION OF DELAY arises only when artificial deadlines of IOC/FOC are inserted for no rhyme or reason by technocrats/bureaucrats/politicians only for the sake of painting a rosy picture when it was not at all necessary to do so in the very first place. ‘Dead-Weight’ refers to those lead inserts that were mounted on board ONLY THOSE Tejas Mk1 PVs & LSPs that did not have the EL/M-2032 MMR & the EW suite on-board. These inserts were ONLY meant to realistically simulate the MTOW & CG of such Tejas Mk1 platforms. Fuel-rods for S-2/Arihant require replacing once in 10 years. For INS Chakra they don’t require replacements. As for Tejas MRCA, I had already gone 1 step ahead of my good old friend ‘Pushy’ when I had suggested that at least 90 tandem-seat Tejas Mk1s can be employed as LIFTs by both the IN & IAF.
To JEET SINGH: MSMC & JVPC are both one & the same. Its poster above clearly spells out the status of its service-induction. Both the JVPC/MSMC & the Trichy Assault Rifle have been optimised for use by India’s CAPFs & counter-insurgency forces & they’re both performed beyond expectations during exhaustive user-trials.
To SIDDHARTH: 65,000 imported MCIWS & 45,000 imported carbines can hardly equip the entire 1.16 million-strong IA. Kindly read the uploaded posters again to see the true figures.
Prasun Da,
The same poster says 65000 assault rifles will be procured directly and 140000 rifles will be manufactured locally by OFB.
About carbines 45000 will procured directly and 400000 approx. to be manufactured locally by OFB.
Please correct me if I haven't understand the blog.
Siddharth
To RAJEEV CHATURVEDI: 1) No OEM ever parts with design blueprints of weapons/sensors whenever there’s a straightforward off-the-shelf procurement exercise, as was the case with the four PHALCONs that China unsuccessfully sought from IAI/ELTA in the late 1990s. The only data China had obtained at that time was that pertaining to the structural modifications carried out by Russia’s Beriev Aircraft Co for the sake of mounting the triangular L-band AESA inside a fixed radome on an IL-76MD aircraft. NOTHING pertaining to the triangular L-band AESA was ever passed on to China. That’s why China’s NRIET later began ‘mission-mode’ R & D project to develop a radar with rotating antenna that would fit within the Beriev-designed & built radome. This radar closely resembles the APS-138 AEW radar (in looks & performance) originally developed by GE for the E-2C Hawkeye & this very same radar is also installed on the now-being-developed KJ-500 & Pakistan’s ZDK-03 AEW & C platforms.
2) As for China’s AESA/APAR capabilities, the APAR has already been cleared for service-induction. As for airborne AESA-MMR, R & D still continues & so far only laboratory-level tests have been carried out on various scale-size models. If indeed China had by now mastered AESA-MMR technologies, then it would NOT have been clamouring for PESA-MMR-equipped Su-35BMs.
3) They’re meant to be 5th generation in terms of on-board technologies, but 4th generation in terms of what China has indigenously developed, meaning the first generation of combat aircraft acquired by China after 1949 were all imported & therefore China does not call them 1st generation China-developed aircraft. Therefore, the 2nd generation of imported combat aircraft that China successfully re-engineered & indigenised has become known in China as 1st generation aircraft.
4) That’s utter baloney & total hogwash. Have any of these so-called Chinese bloggers uploaded any brochures & posters that spell out the range of HQ-16/HQ-9 SAMs? I have their information posters as well as those of the FD-2000, FT-2000 & FK-1000 SAMs—all new-generation SAMs developed indigenously & none of them have a range exceeding 130km, rest assured. Bottomline: don’t ever believe those who like to portray themselves as being 9 feet-tall.
To SIDDHARTH: The licence-manufacturing clause has been done away with now, meaning imports will be capped at 65,000 & 45,000, respectively. It is these imported units that will be licence-assembled, not licence-built with progressive local content. The remaining reqmts will all be met by domestically developed solutions like MCIWS, JVPC/MSMC, TAR etc.
Prasunda,
Like U have mentioned about the sorry state of merchant marine shipping industry in India its bang on target. Most of the Indian ports with bunkering or transshipment facilities are run by dalaals, middlemans & political goons. As their profit(cut money) is eaten by the ports of neighbouring countries they have started playing the cards of string of pearls or the Chinese is coming. But not for a second they r thinking that we r responsible for bringing Chinese in our own backyards.
Most of the ports in India, works are manually driven in this age of automation resulting in higher cost. The less it is talked about the infrastructure, the better it would be. It takes nearly decades to lay roads or rail lines to the ports. If in a ones lifetime if dredging is done then it would be lucky. Lastly Customs & govt.tax make life miserable for foreign ships. China knows this very well & they have planned accordingly & invested by providing infrastructure to neighbouring country ports which resulted in money making & jobs. So without any naval presence in these ports the Chinese will win the economic war in Indian Ocean Region.
Prasunda,
thank you a lot for the informative description and logical explanation. Do you think additional scorpenes if ordered early will fit in by 2020 or so. How much costly SSN programme will be (for min 9 SSN, with designs), will it come in ~$10-15 Billion. Why the option of additional scorpenes were/are not actively discussed. I see that most of the contracts have options to go for half more additional weapons/platform. Is such option available in Scorpene programme. If such options are there the RFI and CCNS approval for it is really out of logic.
Sreenivas R
To RD: VMT. In fact, I will go one step further to emphatically state that China has already won the race for economic predominance (not war) within the IOR & it is presently engaged in fortifying its gains & investments through Indian assistance! And as for bunkering, the local Customs & Excise officials till this day refuse to sign the necessary approval papers prior to commencement of bunkering unless they’re first gifted with bottles of Black Label or Chivas Regal by the ship’s Captain! And mind you, it was Customs & Excise officers like these that, in collusion with Maharashtra’s Police, that willfully allowed 6 tonnes of RDX to be offloaded at the two drop-zones along Raigad District in February 1993. Hell, we can’t even call this smuggling since it all took place with the full authorisation of the local Police, Customs & Excise & DRI officials!
To SREENIVAS R: Of course, since by the time the 6th Scorpene is launched by MDL by 2018, MDL’s skilled human resources will already by then have acquired a high degree of work proficiency, leaving the learning curve way behind them. A SSN design, if derived from that of the S-2/Arihant, will be much cheaper & faster to produce. The original contract for 6 Scorpenes always had an option clause to be exercised for an additional 3 units. CCNS approval is required so that financial sanction can be set aside by the Union MoF. RFI is not for follow-on Scorpene orders, but for Project 75I—a totally different project that may eventually not take off due to the IN’s more pressing reqmt for SSNs.
Prasun sir,
This is with reference to your reply to MANOJ JOSHI at 10:19pm. If you may, i would like to share what i know about it.
1)I recently attended a seminar by a senior DRDO scientist on Electrical Drives (it deals with electro-mechanical systems). He said that they were developing EMALS for aircraft carriers. It might be another in house technology demonstrator, but they were taking it quite seriously.
2) The technology used for EMALS is not the same as the one used for Rail guns. EMALS is nothing but a linear induction motor. In layman terms, it's what someone will get if they cut an ordinary pump motor at a single horizontal line and spread it out to form a rectangular sheet. The technology is old and proven(found in automatic doors at malls), the only problem was to develop one for higher power densities. Linear induction motors also require almost no maintenance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_Aircraft_Launch_System
The rail gun is a completely different ball game. It's able to achieve much higher power densities but at a cost. The extreme temperatures and friction in a rail gun seriously limit the life of the rail(temperatures are high enough to generate plasma). Rail gun rails are hence categorized as 5 time or 20 time depending on the number of times it can be used. Finding suitable material for rails is a major reason that's keeping it from being a mainstream weapon. Still its a very important technology to develop considering it's applications, civilian and military.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railgun
Thank You
To VIDYUT: VMT for the inputs. What I was referring to was the commonality of power generation/sustenance challenges that one encounters when developing E-MALS & EM rail-guns--something that can indeed be overcome with on-board nuclear power-generation systems on warships.
@prasun da,
i was referring to the P75i CCNS approval and RFI.
Sreenivas R
http://www.firstpost.com/world/might-send-forces-into-pakistan-territory-iran-1394837.html?utm_source=hp-footer
Looks like Iran wants to follow the US' footsteps.
You are quite frank and honest by saying China already won the race, which is absolutely true. All the mess in india are due to pathetic labor unions especially at ports.
And what a revelation about Maharashtra police's achievement regarding the RDX.
http://idrw.org/?p=33738
Good news, I suppose, Prasun ji? Although there's no telling about the party-spoiling capabilities of the decision-makers on top...
Honestly, why are we so enamored with creating clusterfucks?
Now that the MCIWS is here exactly why do we need to procure 65K rifles from a foreign source? How does that suddenly increase the operational capability of the IA? Why not follow the golden rule, KISS, we have an Indian product..it doesn't seem flawed..so work on it and get it into the hands of the soldiers. We've already got the Tavor for our spec ops operators, CAPF special units and the RR..where is the need for another over the top procurement?
Similarly with the howitzers. Generally, given the decades of delaying and procrastination which have occurred one could understand if the IA wanted to IMMEDIATELY induct a CAESAR or a DENEL gun..BUT when the same delays have now thrown up indigenous options then why not wait a little..why not go for a Bharat-52 mated with a leyland truck? After all given the Bharat-52's lineage and your endorsement it is unlikely to face the sort of mishaps and issues that an ab initio venture in such guns would generally face..with the required battery of tests and a few tweaks I'd wager it would be world class..so why not opt for such an option..it might add 2-3 years to the wait but we've already waited this long. As I said..the long wait would generally justify a straight out procurement from some foreign OEM BUT NOT WHEN SAID PROCUREMENT OCCURS JUST WHEN OUR OWN FOLKS COME UP WITH COMPARABLE OFFERINGS?
@Prasun da
You said Kalyani groups guns may never be selected as they havent been tested and pvt co. dont have fields to test them
but if the news is any true then its probable end of monopoly by OFB
http://idrw.org/?p=33738
another piece of good news indeed
http://idrw.org/?p=33740
@Sreenivas R thanks for supporting my POV that new SSN line is atleast 10 yrs away which is why i keep saying IN must go for 6 more Scorpenes (6+3 as per the deal + 3 more)
thanks
Joydeep Ghosh
To GESSLER: Of course it is good news, beyond any shadow of doubt. And not just the IA, but those of several African countries too showed keen interest in the Bharat-52 during DEFEXPO 2014.
To BHASWAR: Why are we so enamored with creating clusterfucks? Simply because old habits, fostered by decades of prevailing mindsets & abysmal SOPs evolved by the MoD, tend to die hard.
To JOYDEEP GHOSH: Bharat-52 can easily tested in Israel’s Negev desert where ELBIT Systems/SOLTAM Systems has its own fully-instrumented field-test range, the kind of which even the IA does not yet possess.
Prasun Da,
That doesn't even begin to cover the absolute inanity exhibited by us. We as a nation are fast becoming a laughing stock in matters of defense and strategic thinking.
Prevailing and past MOD SOPs aside the smallest iota of rationality should lead to the conclusion that 65k rifles from some foreign source are a complete utter waster as they serve no real purpose...
So why aren't you advocating a wheeled variant of the Bharat-52? Specially given that Kalyani has a nice JV going with ELBIT which itself had experience in designing wheeled 155mm gun systems and now even Indian companies like TATA have learnt something of offering a platform capable of accommodating a 155/52 gun.
Prasun Da ,
Any truth in these assertions that Western Intelligence is spreading anti Russia propaganda in GOA
http://indrus.in/blogs/2014/02/18/is_the_west_trying_to_create_friction_between_russians_and_goans_33159.html
Thanks,
Sujoy
Sir,
Feels good to be see firms like Bharat forge successfully developing a gun with ELBIT,but also it its frustrating to see The RM(supposedly honest) breed such crony capitalism,WHY cant the aim be to promote INDIAN INDUSTRY INSTEAD OF DPSU's I believe some babu in MOD is also a board member of DPSUs is that correct?
To BHASWAR: Here’s what happens when common-sense gets thrashed & discarded:
1) In the early 1980s itself there was a well-conceived masterplan for converting one of the islands of the Andaman & Nicobar chain into an offshore financial haven containing not only world-renowned banks, but also world-class tourist resorts. Since no one then had the gumption to help realise this plan by thinking big, Mauritius instead emerged as the leading offshore financial haven for the IOR.
2) 20 years ago another masterplan had been prepared for building a sprawling deep-water offshore container transshipment facility 20km off Nhava Sheva, since, given the nature of India’s continental shelf, there are no deep-water ports along India’s coastline. The thinking was similar to what China had regarding the Yangshan Port 32km east off Shanghai. Again, due to lack of common-sense, all the well-conceived plans were consigned to the dustbin. There was also another plan proposed by a US-based port authority in the early 1990s to build a deep-water port in the Andaman & Nicobar & a corresponding container storage facility at Haldia. This again was dismissed outright under pressure from the Left Front & Communist parties which had then claimed that private-sector management control over such facilities tantamounted to an outright surrender of national sovereignty! The result: Sri Lanka, between Dubai & Singapore, is fast emerging as the IOR’s premier container transshipment destination.
It therefore appears that it is India’s ‘Dharma’ to squander away her opportunities to its neighbours, while it is the ‘karma’ of such neighbours to perpetually take advantage of the ineptitude of India’s decision-makers.
I had advocated way back in April 2012 the development of a MGS version of the Kalyani Group’s upgunned 155mm/45-cal M-46H howitzer. Kalyani Group can still offer a MGS version of its Bharat-52 provided it finds a suitable truck-manufacturer, since now Ashok Leyland is in bed with L & T and NEXTER Systems while DENEL Land Systems is in bed with TATA Power SED & TATA Motors.
To SUJOY MAJUMDAR: No truth in it. Just another conspiracy theory. Ultimately, in terms of imposing the writ of the state, the buck stops with the Goa State Govt. If there’s a gated community of either Russia or Nigeria in existence in Goa inside which unsavoury activities take place, then once can only hold the State’s law-enforcement machinery accountable for the primary lapses. Then there are other factual inconsistencies in that report. For instance, this: “From the early-1990s, Russians came less and less in contact with India and Indians. Political relations between Moscow and New Delhi had also cooled. Between 1992 and 2000, the Western media and its Indian counterparts had managed to poison ordinary Indians about Russia. This seemed like a perfect plan to turn India and Indians completely pro-West.”
In reality, exactly the reverse is true. Throughout the 1960s, 1970s & 1980s whenever Russian technocrats were deputed to India for implementing various product warranty schemes, they always stayed within strictly guarded gated communities & were even prevented from watching Indian TV programmes, lest they develop a penchant for defecting. All that changed after 1991 when they began staying like anyone else in hotels & private guesthouses. Contacts between Russia-origin businessmen (located in Russia as well as throughout Central Asia) & their Indian counterparts also flourished after 1991 since India was then the nearest source for cheaply available commodities like cigarettes, tinned food, cosmetics, electrical appliances etc. Between 1991 & 1997 several India-based businessmen made tens of millions in profits sending such commodities via almost never-ending charter-flights using surplus IL-76MD transports spread throughout the CIS. Om addition, landmark deals like those of co-development of BrahMos-1, construction of S-2/Arihant, S-3 & S-4 SSBNs & the Su-30MKI licenced-production deal were all inked PRIOR to Vladimir Putin becoming Russia’s President.
VIKRANT: You’re spot on.
Interesting analysis:
http://indrus.in/blogs/2014/02/17/keyhole_diplomacy_doesnt_suit_india_33119.html
http://indrus.in/blogs/2014/02/18/a_kabuliwallah_returns_to_kandahar_33147.html
Prasunda,
An important development by L&T which can act as a swissknife for our submarine force.
http://www.spsnavalforces.com/exclusive/?id=13&h=L-and-T-pioneers-torpedo-tube-AUV-Navy-interested
How do you rate this Adamya auv with others & will navy go for it.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/troops-to-economy-army-cells-to-keep-a-watch-on-china/article1-1184699.aspx
http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/iaf-bombshell-difficult-to-tackle-china-pak-threat/article1-1185495.aspx
"collusive threat" from China and Pakistan would be difficult to tackle but the air force was prepared for it. - is like The Army is fully prepared to take on any Threat
Prasunda,
You mentioned in one of your posts that the probable cause of INS Sindhurakshak blast was being concluded to the explosion linked to the expired Klub missile. However, the fact is that this kilo class sub had received new Kub-S missile system during the refit.
So how did the missile reach its expiry life so fast? OR the modification itself was a sham where old Klub missiles were passed on as new ones?
Thanks
Prasunda,
How much is the generational difference between OLS-30, OLS-35 with that of OLS-50?
Does OLS-50 exist? Is it possible to install it in Su-30 MKI super upgrade?
Dear Prasun Da: The MCIWS has 600-650 rpm rate of fire,also effective range is UPTO 500 meter.If we compare with AR-15(800 rpm/upto 600m);FN SCAR (625 rpm/ upto 800m);Heckler & Koch G36(750 rpm/800m) & Beretta ARX 160 (700rpm/upto 600m) where does this stand.Neither it can be feed by a 100 round drum.It just seems ARDE & DRDO copied and made one piece " jack of all trades".What do you say can they create a breakthrough design like anyone of the above or tarvor 21.
Prasun Da,
VMT for the interesting glimpse into our sordid past wrt our actions (or rather pusillanimous in-actions)in the IOR. Might as well hang up the guns and let the Chinese have their way, all the possible gods in heaven know that the nations in the IOR would probably prosper underneath their sway far more than under ours, we'd probably leave them drowning underneath the waves given our proclivities.
For members constantly casting wary glances up north and north-east. A little anecdote from my father who has been visiting China on and off since the last 20 years. In the year 1990 he was sent their as part of a GOI delegation- mind you this was the year when for the last time India's per-capita income would be higher than China's (correct me, I could always be wrong)- anyway- so he visited the villages and all the less advertised places and this is what he had to say (ad verbatim):- "Every village was as rundown as one of our own BUT every village had one very well appointed and facilitated building unlike in the case of our villages- a school- where the teachers appointed by the government were not absent for the larger part of the year. They learnt how to mobilize and equip their most important resource from an early stage- the human resource- while we laughed at them because they couldn't hold a long winded conversation in the good queen's language." Just an example of how they deal with the important issues, from defense to education.
Now on to more queries sir:-
Now that the Kalyani and TATA driven shock and awe has worn off a couple of questions come to mind.
1) The Kestrel is stated to provide ballistic protection from STANAG level 1 to 4. All well and good except no specifics were provided. For example when dealing with the Stryker platform, one finds clear information that in its basic config. the frontal arc is rated at STANAG level-4 while the rest of the vehicle has all round protection at STANAG level-1. While TATA simply states that the Kestrel's protection is rated from level-1 to 4 without any specifics. Any idea on the detailed protection specs of the base version of the Kestrel, assuming that it was said variant which was on display at the DEFEXPO?
TATA should have showcased the modular armor upgrade package for the Kestrel too.
2) Furthermore since the defense update write up on the Kestrel states that the "belly" of said vehicle is rated at level-3 (STANAG) against mines it should be safe to assume that we are looking at STANAG Level-3b rather than 3a ergo the vehicle can withstand a direct hit from a 8kg at mine dead underneath its floor rather than only being rated to that level for a detonation under one of its wheels.
3) On to Kalyani/Bharat Forge. Their offering for the mobile vehicle mounted gun in the form of the Garuda looks like a carbon copy of Mandus's Hawkeye 105mm weapons system, in fact the gun looks like a bolt to bolt copy of the Mandus gun, please tell me that ain't so? Because if so then it would be less of a JV with Mandus and more of a screwdriver-giri/backdoor import situation.
4) What do you think of soft recoil technology wrt artillery and its applications in general? Specially since that is Mandus's specialty and Bharat Forge seems to be set to work with them to provide certain platforms and products for the Indian Armed Forces.
5) Sir, now that the US army has officially scuttled the GCV (Something you and I have talked of in the past, the move towards super heavy IFVs and their applicability in the hands of the IA) program due to budget cuts I think its time we stopped thinking of a 60 ton IFV (lest we want to import Namers) and start looking at more immediate solutions. You have previously stated (and I am mentioning it for the nth time)that there are Indian companies which have mastered the AMAP/contemporary alternative's composition/utilizaion, we have access to and experience with the required optics and sensor suite thanks to the Arjun/Nag/Kestrel programs, and we can always opt for a foreign sourced turret if need be. But as such we have what it takes to build a tracked IFV weighing in at 30-40 tons (ranging based upon added modular armor on a need based arrangement). In fact if we follow the project framework of the Kestrel (DPSU+Pvt. sector+foreign OEM) we should be able to develop a product quite quickly, faster than pursuing and attaining a super heavy IFV. Not to mention that said super heavy IFV will be all but useless up in the NE or pretty much outside the deserts and the plains (although I guess a 40 ton IFV won't be doing much good in the NE either given the piss poor infra we've got there). Your critique of the above opinions would be much appreciated.
6) An indigenous tracked IFV can open some real doors. Specially in terms of the Indian defense industry graduating to actually making some firm and big ticket exports. A racked IFV made in India would be an ideal plafrom for a SR-SAM/Point defense system (think 9K22 Tunguska only with a smaller Indian AESA and some Astra missiles pressed into the job- nothing that exists on paper but all very possible specially after sensors like the Arudhra AESA mature leaving the path open for more compact AESA sensors)or an anti-tank weapons system (Nag on a RCWS turret mated to a well protected IFV). Perhaps not the best of examples but I am sure you get the drift. Similarly the Kestrel has potential, a NLOS mortar system mated to the Kestrel for eg. The IA for one could really enhance its indirect-fire arsenal. What say you?
7) The MOD/GOI should grow some cojones and grab the bull by the horn. We are yet again on the cusp of breaking out in terms of defense production but if we fail to utilize the opportunity and procrastinate then yet again all the systems and attendant tech developed will never get into the hands of the warfighters and furthermore will be rendered obsolete- so that after another 2 decades long nap we'll suddenly wake and try to play catch-up. Do you see any change in the MOD and GOI's thought process which might lead one to assume an optimistic view in this regard?
8) On to a generic artillery question. Why do you prefer wheeled howitzers over the tracked SPGs? I mean the wheeled systems are lighter by far and indeed easier to fit into an aircraft BUT they do have certain limitations. From what I've seen wouldn't it be true that most guns (155mm) mounted on trucks would have traverse limitations? Although the side stabilizer on the TATA+Denel offering seem to indicate no hindrance in side firing. Also these trucks are rather thin skinned, now while we'll depend upon mobility (against counter battery fire- shoot and scoot) and the fact that these systems will be firing from a few kilometers away from the front to keep them safe isn't it still judicious to look at certain armoring solutions lest they end up dead upon making contact with the opposition (I mean high powered rifle rounds could probably kill the poor blokes in the cabin)? Or is it just far too unlikely that the bogies (enemy infantry) might break through to stumble upon one of our artillery positions while our assets are still firing and ergo not scooting?
Btw, any chance you will take exception to me changing my handle, I just thought it might do me good to not go about posting under my actual given name?
Prasun Da,
Lastly, funny article on the design of the Tejas Mk.2 being completed..apparently the ADA fellow proudly proclaimed that the Mk.2 would not have any lead weights in it unlike in the case of the Mk.1...unless the fellow in question had forgotten that that is one attribute that the operational MK.1s will share with the Mk.2 as well as any other operational fighter in the world (what with an operational fighter requiring a radar and sensors anyway ergo necessitating the removal of said weights set in to ensure that fidelity is maintained in terms of center of gravity and what not during tests)I can't think of any other plausible reason why he'd make such an inane proclamation and that too with such implied pride. Who to lay the blame on, the journo or the official- tough choice ever since I stumbled upon the head of the ADA proclaiming that they had no idea that mean time between overhauls and lifetime operational costs (correct the terminology if flawed) would be important attributes among many others wrt assessing the Tejas. Although I guess I'm still willing to give the ADA fellow the benefit of the doubt, they aren't the most eloquent folks out there but our journos sure are the most brain dead of the lot possibly found anywhere. Either than or he's claiming that the complete sensor suite of the Mk.2 will be ready by the time the first prototype flies- not just ready but mated with the prototype aircraft itself from the initial test flights onward?
To RD: This AUV is useful primarily for seabed mapping when equipped with a sidescan sonar, & it can also conduct recce for seabed-moored mines. Its principal advantage is that it can be launched from existing torpedo tubes.
To DASHU: The question that the Parliamentarians should have asked was: what exactly are India’s conventional threat perceptions post-May 1998 & what are the Indian armed forces’ conventional deterrence/war-waging options, given the fact that the days of bearing the brunt of full-scale invasions got over after May 13, 1998? That should be the sole point-of-departure that dictates India’s military force-modernisation plans & activities, instead of the ‘arming without aiming’ practice that presently prevails.
To AK: During the refit, the ‘Kalibre-PLE’ fire-control system was installed on-board for enabling the SSK to fire Novator 3M-54E & 3M-14E ASCMs & LACMs. These missiles, however, were all acquired in the previous decade. No new missile rounds of this type were bought after that.
To JAIDEV: Not any significant difference. Am not aware of OLS-50. Any type of IRST can go on board the Super Su-30MKI for as long as it does not stretch the system’s electrical power reqmts & it easily fits into its existing bulkhead inside the airframe.
To SUJOY MAJUMDAR: The type of question asked by these Parliamentarians itself is totally wrong. The question that the Parliamentarians should have asked was: what exactly are India’s conventional threat perceptions post-May 1998 & what are the Indian armed forces’ conventional deterrence/war-waging options, given the fact that the days of bearing the brunt of full-scale invasions got over after May 13, 1998? That should be the sole point-of-departure that dictates India’s military force-modernisation plans & activities, instead of the ‘arming without aiming’ practice that presently prevails. Given the state of Pakistan’s economy & its military being over-stretched due to internal counter-insurgency operations, neither the PA nor the PAF will pose any degree of credible threat to India for at least another decade.
To ROHIT: Not necessarily so. Any assault-rifle is designed to suit the unique reqmts of the host-country’s end-users. In case of the MCIWS, the final design has emerged only after receiving exhaustive inputs from all three armed services. Finally, it is up to them to decide what kind of ammo magazines they desire. Further inputs will be forthcoming once select formations are equipped with the MCIWS on a pilot-scale & further iterations will definitely follow.
To BHASWAR: VMT for the anecdotal recollection on China. 1) Specific design/performance parameters will become available ONLY AFTER the APC has been subjected to exhaustive mobility/firepower trials by any prospective end-user over diverse types of terrain spread over diverse altitudes. Modular armour packages like AMAP or slat-armour or even all-composite conformal inserts are all available as optional accessories, if demanded. That should also answer your query no.2 about hull-resistance to mines/IEDs. 3) The motorised 105mm gun is in fact a wholly imported item, with Kalyani acting as its local marketing agent. 4) Soft-recoil technologies & soft-mounts reqd for mounting 12.7mm HMGs or ATGM launchers on 4 x 4 ATVs are already available in-country. 5 & 6) Every ICV/AIFV design (tracked or wheeled) is a compromise because the heavier & more armed the turret, the lesser the internal volume available for accommodating infantrymen. Furthermore, ICVs/AIFVs have no other choice but to become 50-tonners in case they want to survive against ATGMs, both ground-launched or air-launched & against medium battle tanks of the type fielded by India’s neighbours. The only other available option, one that I have long advocated, is to go for BMPT-type tracked tank support vehicles that can easily be developed indigenously using existing T-72M1 hulls, & which can be devastating when neutralising hostile dug-in ATGM teams (while the LUHs & Rudras armed with Mistral-ATAMs are charged with neutralising hostile attack helicopters). This then will remove the threats posed to friendly infantry forces by dug-in hostile infantrymen, thus enabling friendly infantrymen mounted on 8 x 8 APCs to advance some 800 metres behind the combination of friendly main battle tanks & tank support vehicles. Existing BMP-2s can easily be modified with more powerful powerpacks & equipped with turrets containing VL-SHORADS like Maitri SR-SAM, their target acquisition radars, or even anti-aircraft cannons. 7) The MoD, iof it wants to, can easily implement such programmes (like that of tank support vehicles & modified BMP-2s) & the private-sector will be more than willing to chip in with innovation/creativity since these orders will involve thousands of vehicles, thereby ensuring economies of scale.
Cont’d below…
8) Primarily due to the cost factor. Wheeled automotives have today become as mature as their tracked counterparts. No traverse limitations of any kind have been demonstrated by various MGS options available. Field artillery howitzers do not require barrel traversing time-levels of the kind reqd by MBTs. Nor are they as vulnerable today to hostile ground fire/close air support as they were in the 1970s & 1980s. The IA’s Corps of Air Defence Artillery can today field formidable ground-based battlefield air-defence networks of the kind that will keep the IA’s massed field artillery assets away from harm’s way. Chances of a hostile sniper targetting the crew of a MGS are the same as an RPG-armed hostile infantryman targetting the tracks of a tracked SPH & immobilising it.
You’re free to choose whatever handle you want to. It’s a free country after all. About the Tejas Mk2 news-report, the goof-up was definitely that of the ‘desi’ journalist. What the ADA official had said was that unlike the Tejas Mk1 project that involved TDs, PVs & LSPs, the Tejas Mk2’s flight certification R & D phase will involve only flying PVs (two fully equipped ones, I’m told), plus one for structural fatigue tests, & only four production-standard LSPs. The PVs will have totally integrated avionics suites from Day-1 & if you refer to my earlier thread on ‘IAF Insists on Radical makeover for Tejas Mk2’, then you will be able to connect the dots. The ‘desi’ journalist obviously failed miserably in trying to make sense of such breakdowns & hence his resultant convoluted concoctions.
VMT Prasun Da,
Our proposed BMP upgrades don't look so promising though, the armoring solutions for the cabin looked positively cosmetic. Why not take a leaf out of Slovakian notebook- there BVP-M2 SKCZ is a REAL BMP upgrade now..complete cabin re-armored and a real futuristic RCWS complete with ATGMs...modular to boot so that different combinations of the armor modules and RCWS turrets for third party OEMs can be integrated. I mean if Slovakia can do it then why not us?
I guess that's why the Israeli's did away with the turret on the Namer..so that all the extra weight (60 tons in all) would come from protecting the crew cabin and vehicle hull. What do you think of such a move..its surely possible to do so and still incorporate an ultralight RCWS for ATGMs which still allows all the weight to come from the armor?
I still don't get why you think that the Arjun doesn't require heavy track skirts..hell even the heavier IFVs like the Puma and Tulpar deploy heavy track skirts for protection. Not to mention isn't the IRCM going to have a limited FOV what with a huge tank gun to its aft blocking its view to at least one side?
what exactly are India’s conventional threat perceptions post-May 1998 & what are the Indian armed forces’ conventional deterrence/war-waging options, given the fact that the days of bearing the brunt of full-scale invasions got over after May 13, 1998?
Prasun Da - Please answer thsi question or help me with links which I can go through for answers to this question.
Furthermore,
Are the IRDE optronics like the EOFCS, SEOS and WNS indigenous offerings? Or are we looking at license manufacturing and/or importing critical components form foreign OEMs and then integrating them into an in-house assembled system?
Also I was looking at the Nexter ARX20 RCWS and I realized why you were so put out by the OFB RCWS. Holy hell the Nexter product houses a 20 mm cannon, smoke grenades and a secondary 7.62 cal. machine gun. After all that it still weighs just 270Kg which if I'm not wrong is also the weight of the OFB RCWS.
Btw, given that the Namer is REALLY well protected with such heavy armoring and APS..why have they let it remain so pathetically under-armed? If I am not mistaken it mounts a RAFAEL SAMSON RCWS, which happens to have a variant (saw it in EUROSATORY 2006 thread) called the Mini-SAMSON which incorporates two SPIKE missiles too, so far though I've never seen a pic of the NAMER with said additions instead they continue to be armed with the SAMSON mounts without any ATGMs.
Also what do you then think of a Namer like IFV with a Nexter ARX20 turret modified to add on 2 light ATGMs like say Javelins..should max out at 400Kg or so..not much off a drag on a 60 ton IFV and rather compact to boot?
If it is a super-heavy IFV that we want (don't think that the IA has expressed any interest as such) then why are we dithering? The Arjun project has already handed us the experience in dealing with heavy vehicles. I still don't understand why you insist that the suspension and vectronics of the Arjun cannot be used on such an IFV..why run towards an ab initio development or source it from some foreign source? With the modular armor (MKU, TATA), suspesion (Arjun), optronics (the Arjun suite/COAPS), vetctronics, engine (sourced from outside but the same as the Arjun) being either sourced in house or being foreign products which we are ALREADY using such a project shouldn't exactly be akin to shooting for the moon. No?
After all the Namer too was based on the Merkava and the commonality lent itself to making life much easier for the IDF. So while the Arjun's chassis might not lend itself to an IFV therefore necessitating at least designing the vehicle's structure/shell/chassis from scratch the rest (the above mentioned components) should not be so difficult to produce, procure and source.
@ Sujoy Majumdar
You need to understand something about the US . From your statement it seems your understanding is incomplete .
The US only considers countries that are predominantly White & predominantly Christian ( preferably Protestant) as it's allies.
They don't think much about countries like India or Pakistan . These countries are basically door mats for the US . It's just that the corrupt govt. of India in concert with the US gives the impression to the Indian public that the US is an ally .
The average American has a very low opinion about India. India is seen as a 3rd world state and Indians are seen as job snatchers. The US govt simply reflects the mood of it's population whereas the Indian Govt doesn't .
Pardon me to digress a little in response to Ranjit.A super power like the USA only cares about its own national interest. It is NOT based on any religion because a country and its religion are not synonymous.If you understand western countries to be Christians you are not far from the likes of Al Qaeda who understand all western nations as Christians and all of India is a Hindustan ignoring millions of Muslims who live in India and serve India as their motherland. Like Prasun said, Indian government lacks vision, fails to stand up for its people and easily bows down before others for unknown reasons...not to forget has done nothing to improve the lots of its own education, health and industries.
Anyway Prasun seeing Tata, AL both are taken, does Mahindra have something to help kalyani group with? How about Tatra even?
Prasun Da ,
According to this article
http://indrus.in/economics/2014/02/20/concern_agat_to_cooperate_with_pipavav_shipyard_33191.html
the Russian company Agat is holding negotiations with DRDO for co operation in projects .
Will you please state what kind of projects DRDO may contemplate with Agat ?
Thank You
Vikram
BTW what kind of any revolutionary philosophy could have provoked the idea of importing the 127mm naval guns ???
To SUJOY MAJUMDAR: Of course Pakistan is an ally of the US, albeit a reluctant ally, but an ally nevertheless. And Pakistan has no other choice but to follow US diktats simply because the US is the largest aid-donor for Pakistan. Not even China or the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia can match the US in this respect. No matter how hard it tries, Pakistan will never be able to undermine any kind of Indian presence within Afghanistan because the Afghans themselves won’t allow it to happen. What now needs monitoring is what will be the roles to be played by an India-Iran-China-Russia combine in terms of stabilising post-2014 Central Asia, not just Afghanistan. While the Central Asia-Afghanistan-Chah Bahr transit trade route is surely destined to become active later this year, the same cannot be said about the Afghanistan-Gwadar route & China is already having second thoughts about it. Consequently, for all intents & purposes, India & Iran, supported by China, will play the major roles in terms of trade & commerce with Central Asia—which could well be extremely irksome to the Sunni axis of Pakistan, Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, the UAE & Qatar. Therefore, let’s see what the visiting Saudi Crown Prince, Deputy PM and Defence Minister Salman Bin Abdul-Aziz (who was in Pakistan from February 15 to 17) has to say to his Indian counterparts about all this.
Also, do read this:
http://indrus.in/blogs/2014/02/20/dont_ask_what_saudi_arabia_can_do_33205.html
To ANILUV G: This question cannot be answered here as it is far too long & therefore deserves to become the principal narrative in a brand-new thread. Nor are there any available links that shed more light on this vital issue—believe it or not.
BHASWAR: Even with such upgrades, the BMP-2KM won’t be able to survive in the future battlefield. Far better therefore to put such vehicles to other uses along the lines I had suggested yesterday. Heavy track-skirts are reqd for those vehicles that will be exposed on all sides in the battlefield, such as built-up or urbanised areas. Within the subcontinent, none of the armoured vehicles will be operating within such areas & instead the typical areas most suited for armoured warfare will be either agrarian in nature or will be undulating sand dunes. Maximum target detection ranges therefore won’t exceed 700 metres at best. This was the case in 1965 & 1971 & it will be so in future as well. Consequently, Western concepts of up-armouring don’t apply to Indian battlefield conditions at all. All IRDE-developed optronics are indigenous offerings. OFB-built RCWS weighs 190kg only, excluding the joystick-equipped RCWS control-console built by Samsung-Techwin that is mounted inside the turret. And as for “I still don't understand why you insist that the suspension and vectronics of the Arjun cannot be used on such an IFV”, I never dwelt on this subject at all in this blog. Presumably you’ve cut-n-pasted this bit from your comments posted somewhere else.
To PIERRE ZORIN: Mahindra, URAL & KAMAZ & VOLVO all have alternate offerings, kindly rest assured.
To VIKRAM GUHA: Not with DRDO, but with Pipavav Defence & Offshore Engineering. Even GRANIT JSC has inked some MoU. The MoU with Agat JSC calls for exploring options for equipping the Allion-designed & Pipavav-built NOPVs with on-board systems like IPMS, air-conditioning, CIC, etc. The MoU with GRANIT calls for exploring ways of indigenising the BrahMos-1’s existing SGH SAR seeker. The latter is a dead-end because BrahMos Aerospace has already selected the SAR seeker developed by DATA Patterns as the principal new-generation sensor for various BrahMos-1 production blocks.
To Mr.RA 13: With 127mm guns, GPS-guided projectiles like ERGM can be fired over-the-horizon.
http://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/columns/the-great-game-folio-silk-routes/99/
VMT Prasun Da,
It is difficult to keep track of one's posts so perhaps I am muddling separate issues here.
Btw, one thing for the TATAs, they did pick a good RWS/RCWS for the Kestrel. The MCT-30 weighs in at just 2 tons at level-4 STANAG.
Btw, I had a noobish question. What does the term "non hull penetrating" mean wrt RCWS?
If one has an exceptionally well protected IFV (Namer or CV-90 armadillo)then could a relatively less protected RWS (in relation to a full on armored turret) become the Achilles heel of the vehicle- as in does the armor run along underneath the RWS or is there an opening underneath it as in the case of a turret. A "naked" RWS could eat a HE round and the explosion might simply rip right through it and into the vehicle. Hope I was able to express the question correctly...
hello..........
With the PAF getting 13 ex-Jordanian F-16's next month.........what now ?? Any knee-jerk reaction from us ......or do we finally go in for the Rafales ???
Thank You Prasun Da
Read both the links that you have provided . I think M K Bhadrakumar is right that Pakistan will use the Saudis to reign in the Sunni militant groups . However , what Pakistan will do is they will divert these Sunni militant groups towards INDIA while the Pak Army terminates the Shia groups
What would be interesting to see is how many troops can the US maintain in Afghanistan post 2014 .
Re the link on the New Silk Route I don’t think that the new Govt especially if it is the NDA will accept any such proposal from China as they have constantly defined China as an enemy & also because the US has great influence over the BJP .
Thanks again
Sujoy
Very incisive articles by M K Bhadrakumar.
Have a look at this one...it is very recent:
http://blogs.rediff.com/mkbhadrakumar/2014/02/19/india-recalls-1999-kandahar-humiliation/
and
http://blogs.rediff.com/mkbhadrakumar/2014/02/17/saudis-prioritize-pakistan-ties/
and this one by Pepe Escobar:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MID-03-210214.html
Pakistans relations to Saudi are the most critical. Then it is China followed by the USA. The reason for this is because both Saudi and China understand that pak will only do something if they feel its in their interest. Just look what china is doing for pak with 6 nuke reactors.
USA gave up trying to push pak ("do more"), at the end they asked both China and Saudi to help, tells a lot about where pak puts its relationship!!! What is more this time pak has not aliented russia or iran. The USA is desperate for pak to open GLOC at the moment through KPK. Things have changed.
With 127mm guns, GPS-guided projectiles like ERGM >> Is that Vulcano. If yes, then shall it not be desirable.
@raw13,
more saudi involvement = more madness in pak = more instability.
This is what history tells us.
The only way pakistan can be doing better is when it get rid of alla, america and army.
@Anon 2:18AM,
This is what one of the articles points to...and i could not agree more with you.
@raw13,
I have read this hilarious article you suggested. http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MID-03-210214.html
just copying some hilarious sentences:
"It's open to debate whether the House of Saud might be tempted to employ it against the enemy within: aspiring Saudi women drivers."
"Brandishing the official excuse that near-nonagenarian King Abdullah was not able to receive him, Charles of Arabia declined to discuss with the House of Saud the absolutely appalling women's rights, migrant workers' rights and for that matter the full human rights situation in the kingdom. Of course not; this is only brought up when demonizing Russia, China and/or Iran."
AND NOW SOME HARD FACTS:
"Here's the dough, now gimme a bomb
So the House of Saud is stockpiling weapons. Check. Saudi Arabia's Prince Bandar bin Sultan, aka Bandar Bush, remains on the loose, financing/weaponizing his growing army of mercenaries in the Levant. Check. And the House of Saud is up to something with its ally Pakistan. Check."
" One doesn't need to be the perspicacious Charles of Arabia to detect a Saudi hand on all this - actively spoiling the Iran-Pakistan energy partnership."
"Meanwhile, the House of Saud is trying to amass as many Pakistani "advisers" as possible to train its paid goons in Syria. The official Pakistani non-denial denial is that they won't be sending their army to Syria. [2] But in a remix of Afghanistan during the 1980s jihad, a bunch of seasoned "advisers" will more than suffice. "
A NEW wave of violence is coming to pakistan.
pakis may be happy to receive saudi billions , but every saudi dollar it receives, it loses another 2-3 dollars in terms of industry loses, growth, social disorder.
after all pakistan is the only country that sells the services of the army. pak army is on rent...
actually I have to digress here a bit with you Pierre Zorin. yes US cares about it's national interest, but what makes up its 'national interest' is based on a narrative laid out by a combination of interest groups of various/largely euro-americans (i.e. whites - as Sujoy Majumdar referred to) spread across industries, sectors, etc that determine what national policies of the US are and how it acts. the defense sector for eg. industrially the companies are euro-american and the contracts go to them, the so called 'strategic community' is made up of largely euro-americans who make sure that policy and military wise they are always very close to europeans and countries having majority ethnic euro populations. this makes sure there is unprecedented tech sharing and true, genuine collaboration between these groups on a scale never seen with asians or others for example. from group decisions/policy formulations, to even individually, given the unprecedented historical pollution of the euro origin mind with the poison of absurd 'racist' theories, combined with tendency to herd together, insecurities, etc. all make sure that national interests are basically euro-american. granted there are exceptions, when there is space for competition between themselves after 'securing' themselves from everyone else, but the core interest always trumps and will continue to until interest groups in US will undergo ethnic change and policies will be forcibly changed. as is human nature, the herding and identifying with each other among these communities increases in times of crisis and when faced with 'others'. if you critically study their history and drown out the propaganda - you can see the behavior emerge. this resulted in niking japs instead of germans. this resulted in the unprecedented collaboration of UKUSA. South Africa would probably have figured if not for the fact that they underwent ethnic change in their strategic communities which resulted in cutting them out. this results in unprecedented british defence company involvement in US and vice versa. this results in the clamor over Churchill's bust at the white house and the desperate attempt by the Republican party to now have it displayed at congress. this results in confused glorifying and studying of greek, roman, military history etc. in defence colleges in the US.
i am not saying everything thus far has flown from a carefully formulated strategy - but even unconsciously - these imagined identites of americans eventually governed their choices, actions and views. which unfortunately has resulted in historic mistakes.
btw, this group think also results in euros referring to US and european countries as 'western' (kind of reveals the psychology) which i see you have done too. for the record, US is US, western means western european. this desperate or political bid to clutch at or claim the US to be western is coming from that same insecure, confused space that gives rise to this herd mentality. look up 'orientalism' to study these social phenomenons in your own countries.
Three Killed In Ecuador's 2nd HAL Dhruv Crash !!! :(
HI Prasun
I find it hard to believe that the aswhini is totally indegenious. are they screw driver version of the israeli and french radars? there seems to be no mention of how the active tr/rcv elements were made. do explain. The arudhra is the el 2084 , what is the ashwini copied or derived from
Hello Prasun Da,
Any knowledge of why Agni 2 user trial was put on hold .. some desi jurno was taking abt Indian and Rusian INS systems
Any idea ?
http://www.heroturko.me/4871250-catia-pro-mastering-catia-by-examples-mce-x5-series-complete-package.html
http://idrw.org/?p=33858
Your opinion
Prasun da and all bloggers friend
See the superb hard work done by the ADA expertise.
http://www.livefistdefence.com/2014/02/official-updated-lca-tejas-mk2.html
Siddharth
Another interesting article:
http://blogs.rediff.com/mkbhadrakumar/2014/02/23/saudi-doublespeak-hits-indias-core-interests/
India is in a real fix here. It back stabbed Iran under pressure from uncle SAM. It gets huge revenues from the GCC, with some unexpected goodies. Then there are the local politics.
if Indian dealing with Iran is termed as backstabbing; what could be the possible word we need to use for pak's dealing with Iran? and what would it take such a MFB like u to stay away from this blog?
Prasunda,
What is your take on this entire coup business? Indian Express has been in overdrive, claiming the entire limelight for breaking the story.
Even though lots of supportive stories are coming up that something happened, a coup is bit too far-fetched. What do you say?
sir,
one of the best articles on the current state of india's oldest insurgency?I hope this reality was known to many people.
http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-opinion/nagaland-descent-into-chaos/article5607599.ece
Would like to know your views on the article and where does the naga conflict go from here(a little bit detailed answer please)?
http://news.yahoo.com/iran-39-zarif-plans-india-visit-revive-ties-182400641.html
http://www.frontline.in/world-affairs/challenges-opportunities/article5692785.ece
http://news.yahoo.com/exclusive-iraq-signs-deal-buy-arms-ammunition-iran-141926711--sector.html
http://news.yahoo.com/iran-39-zarif-plans-india-visit-revive-ties-182400641.html
http://www.frontline.in/world-affairs/challenges-opportunities/article5692785.ece
http://news.yahoo.com/exclusive-iraq-signs-deal-buy-arms-ammunition-iran-141926711--sector.html
http://www.frontline.in/cover-story/unhappy-soldiers/article5698706.ece
http://www.frontline.in/cover-story/alarming-shortage-of-personnel/article5698778.ece
http://www.frontline.in/cover-story/right-to-vote-discriminatory-rules/article5698779.ece
http://www.frontline.in/cover-story/positive-accommodation-defence-ministry/article5698783.ece
Will answer all outstanding queries later today.
Dear Prasun,
India is struggling to develop indigenous defense equipments; but on the other hand, Iran fast procuring the same without depending upon the developed nations. One example is OVER THE HORIZON radar having range of 3000 km. It is obvious that Iran is no easy prey like Iraq or Afghanistan. But question arises how much capable the Iranian aniti-ship cruise missile and other defense stuffs. Can the anti-ship cruise misiles hit the American aircraft carriers? Will America, Israel stumble upon against Iran if war breaks out???
@Prasun da
I need some clarifications
1. Sometimes you say Bharat 52 wont be selected as the guns of pvt. players cant be tested in India as pvt players dont have any testing field in India, then again you say Bharat 52 can easily be tested at Negev, Israel
2. You say Bharat 52 is much better than Dhanush 45, but then again you say there is a need for 1000 no. of Dhanush 45 atleast
3. You say focus is on MGS like Caesar but if IA goes for 1000 no. of Dhanush 45 where does the MGS like Caesar fit in & in how many no.
4. You say no sane navy will go for SSK, SSN, SSBN but Russia has it & if IN also follows suit (as you said sometime back) then question will arise SSK in MDL, SSBN/SSGN at SBC where will be SSN made?
5. If IN wants to continue SSK line then again just 3 more Scorpenes wont help, it be better to extend the Scorpene SSK line with derivatives of SMX 21/22/23
6. You say Afghans wont allow pak to use their land against India, but that again is true for north, central and western Afghanistan. the south & SE Afghanistan is particularly arid with little water resources, with no money to feed they will be forced to tow the drug lords and plant opium that doesnt need much tending and ultimate the money generated from that will be used against India
what are your opinion
thanks
Joydeep Ghosh
PRASUN DA,
BHIM is better than Arjun Catapult sp mounting russian M-46 Gun.And since DENEL has already been removed from the MoD’s blacklist, there are no more legal obstacles stranding in the way of the Bhim SPH to be committed-production,then why not the Rebirth of BHIM SPH?
Hi Dada,
We have backlog for 272 Su Mki also..Then when will be we are going to end manufcaturing PAKFA, Tejas & Rafales in future, if backlog of Su - 30 will be cleared only by 2018 ? May be 2030..plz shed some light..
In which world does DM & RM lives ?
http://defencenews.in/defence-news-internal.aspx?id=zWQ1Qi1dApg%3D
VMT
Regards,
Thakur
Prasuna dada,
Why is Indian Navy looking for Oto Melara 127mm naval gun or BAE 127mm naval gun?
The original plan was to get Russian 130mm rapid fire gun with license built version at Indian factories. So what happened? Did russians refused or the requirement changed and why? As far as its known, those Russian guns are pretty darn good and have two barrels as well.
Please inform.
Dear Prasunda,
India urgently needs a medium lift multirole helicopter, as we all know.
Its needed by air force for transportation, Navy for SAR, multirole, even ASW and Army also wants it for its use.
GoI initiated a multi role helicopter project IMRH but it gave it to overburdened HAL, who is sitting on the project. I don't see any enthusiasm in that company to produce another new helo after it has gone slow on LCH, LUH and WSI.
So why can't Indian government open a helicopter challenge across the nation? It should let Indian private and public companies to come up with proposals and the best two can be funded for prototypes. Then whichever is the best, gets the final order.
Instead of adopting best global practices, how long this ostrich policy of GoI and MoD continue?
Prasun ,
I was working on a graph depicting "fighter dogfight potential" Classifying fighter based on their thrust to weight ratio and Wing loading. This is the link for the graph
http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/320/f/e/fighter_dogfight_performance_by_stealthflanker-d3ei11u.png
I'm still wondering whether I should use reference wing area OR the whole thing that generate lift for calculations ? Can you plz shed some light .
VMT
Prasun, some updt in the artillery for the IA. After going through your posts there hav been various questions by fellow bloggers on the 'Bharat, Tata, L&T etc as also the Dhanush . The question is where do they all fit in. Well here goes(as per my guess)...the Dhanush will replace existing voids and deficiencies due to wear and tear of the 'Bofors' the 'Bharat' and others are already in trial mode fot the future options ...things looking very bright. Than there is the upgunning of some 130 mm regiments to 155, this is already in prog and will continue with Soltam kits. As for the 130 catapult, it seems this will be inducted as if now for want of a better option in the near future. By 2020 no 105 ot 122 will remain with us. M777 us still running ..but held up for deviation in the DPP clause. And Prasun..."u will hav to beleive me on this" hope u remember!!!
Another Sindhughosh class submarine "Sindhuratna" in trouble - http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/smoke-detected-on-indian-navy-submarine-ins-sindhuratna-off-mumbai-coast-4-5-sailors-moved-to-hospit-488403?pfrom=home-lateststories
What is exactly happening - some kind of terrorist activities or the unit become too old to remain in service or crew error.
Siddharth
To RAMAN: Nothing to worry about. Even if 60 more F-16s are made available to the PAF, it won’t even make any significant dent, rest assured. That the Rafales will be acquired is beyond doubt, but the order will be placed only later this year.
To ANUP: MoUs are not the same as contracts. No money changes hands when MoUs are inked.
To SUJOY MAJUMDAR: The Saudis want to procure Made-in-Pakistan weapons for those Syrian rebels that are now being lodged in various training camps in Jordan. Secondly, the KSA has already succeeded in forcing Pakistan to opt out of the Iran-Pakistan gas pipeline. Now the KSA is trying hard to wean away India from Iran & let’s see what the new Iranian Foreign Minister has to say when he comes calling to Delhi later this week. Post-2014, the US will keep no more than 15,000 troops stationed inside Afghanistan.
To REDDY: No need for that. Because for the past one week there have been armed clashes between the Iranians & Pakistanis in western Baluchistan & Iran has continued firing MBRL rockets inside that area.
To RAW13: Those six nuclear power generation reactors are at least another decade away. All that has been inked are MoUs, no firm contracts. Iran is now extremely pissed off with Pakistan & matters will get far worse in the months to come.
To VIKRAM GUHA: Not fragmentation in territorial terms, but certainly in electoral terms. Wonder where were all these anti-Telengana demonstrators when the TRS started its agitations in favour of Telengana back in 2010.
To Mr.RA 13: ERGM from the US & Vulcano from Italy.
To RAD: Not French, but Israeli. Leave alone the Aruidhra or Ashwini, not even the Rohini is indigenous. The posters of radars shown during DEFEXPO 2014 at the booths of firms like DATA Patterns & ASTRA Microwave clearly prove this point.
To RAJEEV CHATURVEDI: There was never any coup either being planned or being but into motion. It was clearly a case of miscommunication between Army HQ, the MoD, IB & the PMO, all thanks to the MoD which is always afraid of its own shadow. All; the more reason why the Govt of India should authorise the creation of the institution of a Chief of Defence Staff.
To VIKRANT: Nothing much to comment upon, since the blame lies squarely on the shoulders of successive Govts of India for not being decisive & for neglecting the infrastructure development reqmts of the entire North East as a whole.
To SOUBHAGYA: A lot of the news concerning Iran’s military-industrial achievements are all propaganda.
To JOYDEEP GHOSH: 1) What’s wrong with what I had stated earlier? Where’s the confusion? 2) That was stated before the emergence of Bharat-52. 3) So far, orders have been placed for only 114 Dhanush, not 1,000. 4) None of the Russian navy’s SSKs are operational. SSNs can always be made by L & T at Kattupalli. 5) No need for that, if work starts in earnest on producing SSNs. 6) I never said any such thing. Maybe Hamid Karzai did.
To SUVO: Because of the cost factor. A Bhim weighs close to 55 tonnes while a MGS like Caesar weighs just 17.5 tonnes. Between these two, the MGS is definitely superior in terms of both strategic & tactical mobility, as well as in terms of product-support. Finally, MGS is far cheaper than Bhim.
To THAKUR: Final deliveries of Su-30MKIs will take place only by 2020.
To RANJIT: There was never any plan or deal for licence-building 130mm naval guns of Russian origin anywhere inside India.
To JAIDEV: Don’t expect such out-of-the-box ideas to be mentored or nurtured by this Govt.
To DEFENSE & AEROSPACE: Not just thrust-to-weight ratio or wing loading, but also other variables like turning radius, instantaneous turn rate & climb rate. Only then can a realistic ‘agility quotient’ be derived.
http://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/columns/the-world-of-narendra-abe/99/
http://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/columns/modis-frontier/99/
http://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/columns/new-winds-from-arabia/99/
To SIDDHARTH: This is what happens when folks tend to spend more time playing ‘Solitaire’ at ADA’s workstations instead of doing something tangible.
As for the IN’s CNS resigning yesterday afternoon by unilaterally invoking the time-honoured ‘Command Accountability’ clause, it should instead have been the present-day RM—easily one of the three worst RMs India has ever had—who should have offered to resign. All these accidents have taken place because of four reasons, all of which the present-day RM should have rectified long ago:
1) Acute shortages of trained manpower within the IN due to the IN’s expansion at breathtaking speeds after 2007.
2) The IN’s existing training institutions coming under intense strain due to the IN’s need to impart training to ICGS personnel since the ICGS does not have its own integral training institutions even at a time when the ICGS itself has undergone dramatic expansion after 26/11.
3) Forcing the IN to take on the role of coastal security after 26/11, which has imposed a tremendous strain on both men & material—which I had explained two threads ago.
4) Orders from the Union MoF to all ministries to slash their expenditures for fiscal year 2013-2014 at all costs, which in turn has resulted in all three armed services reducing their annual training & MRO spending levels by significant margins. This has also affected the upkeep of shore-based support infrastructure facilities.
It is due to all of the above that capital-intensive armed services like the IN have taken the hardest hits. This will only get worse in the months to come unless desperately sought funds are quickly released & a massive shore-based infrastructure development programme is launched.
Lastly, there are no OEM-authorised dockyards inside India for undertaking medium refits (MR) or long refits (LR) of Type 877EKM SSKs. Only short refits (SR) lasting no more than 90 days are done, like replacing a periscope or adding new ESM sensors on masts. Now, if the INS Sindhuratna underwent a MR or LR at the Naval Dockyard in Mumbai, was this done under the authorisation & supervision of visiting Russian OEMs/naval architects? Or did the IN decide to initiate such a refit with its own technical personnel, since no additional funding (i.e. foreign exchange) was made available by the MoD for securing Russian assistance for this refit? Only the RM can answer all these questions.
Dear Sir
Will the Sindhuratna have to be TOWED to Mumbai or will it come on its own power
The fire and smoke were in the Battery compartment so the submarine's own power and propulsion must be affected
PRASUN DA,
Instead of Arjun catapult,why they not make truck-mounted version of M-46 gun?
What about the Ultra Light Howitzer of Bharat forge.Its look like chinese one.
Is there any difference between Bharat-52 and NORINCO's 155 mm gun-howitzer Type WA 021 (also referred to as the WAC 21).
Dear Sir
I think that it is there is some
deep rooted Training mistakes ;
Standard Operational Procedure
(SOP) Mistakes which have slowly crept in and are now being exposed
Or it can be that Navy personnel
are NOT getting adequate Rest
Disorientation due to lack of
sleep and rest is a deadly thing
You cant drive a car forget about
operating such complex and deadly machines when you have not had proper rest
SIR Recently The INDIAN AIR FORCE had warned its PILOTS that wasting time on Social Media is very dangerous because the pilots
were NOT getting sleep and rest
Rather they were wasting their resting hours on social media
http://m.indiatoday.in//story/iaf-social-media-pilot-error-cockpit-errors-combat-flying-squadrons/1/343586.html
To VIKRAM: All SSKs have BOTH diesel engines & batteries. The latter is used only as an AIP for short durations when the SSK is either prosecuting an attack or is escaping while it is being hunted. At all other times the diesel engines are used.
Regarding the serviceability woes of the IN’s fleet of Type 877EKM SSKs, what we are now witnessing are the chickens coming home to roost. Operating two different types of SSKs was financially viable during the Cold War era when the USSR subsidised product-support costs for hardware of Soviet origin. However, after 1991 such a situation was no longer financially & technically tenable & like I stated several times before no self-respecting navy ever operates appreciable fleets of SSKs that have been sourced from more than one OEM. In the days to come, more & more retired three-star & four-star officers hailing from all three armed services will reveal this ugly truth. Already they’re saying that all such problems have been ‘inherited’, that this resignation is the IN’s ‘cry of despair’ & that the MoD’s procurement decisions over the past few decades have been taken WITHOUT taking into account the inputs from the end-users. The ugly truth will eventually come out, as it always does. However, in the interim, the usual Indian ‘tamasha’ of ‘fixing the blame instead of fixing the problem’ will be played out for the next few days by the ‘desi’ broadcast TV entities.
To SUVO: Why not? Only Army HQ can answer that. Kalyani Group’s UFH is only a concept design on paper. WAC-21 is not 52-cal. Bharat-52 is.
Prasunda,
The reality of Russian land systems and weapons:
http://en.ria.ru/military_news/20110315/163016351.html
What do you say?
Hello Prasun Da
Awaiting your answer for the One related to Agni 2
.....
Have a great day
br
aditya
Prasunda,
Will A K Antony also take the actual responsibility of eroding the sharp edge of Indian military and resign?
How about the Defence Secretary? Defence Production Secretary should have been kicked out long ago, will he resign?
How many defence ministers and secretaries have resigned so far owning up their misadventures?
They have no responsibility whatsoever and defence chiefs are being forced to resign without their role?
Hi Prasun,
You mentioned in your comments that Saint Antony is one of the 3 worst DMs. One is Krishna Menon, who is the 2nd one?
Having said that, being a Malayalee, I am bit worried about the number of Malayalees in Congress Govt. There have been many Menons & Keralites who served for India. Some of them were really good. But some others have left mind set, which is more harmful to Indian culture.
In the present UPA govt the number of Malayalees served are quite high.
Former RAW chief Hormis Tharakan, MK Narayanan, GK Pillai, Shivshankar Menon, Nirupama Rao, PM's personal secretary. Are these fellows efficient? or just like Saint Antony?
About Saint Antony, even in Kerala Congress most despise him, even though he himself claimed to be 'clean.' Former CM of Kerala K. Karunakaran was much more efficient than this Saint. Saint prefers to do the licking the feet than do the talking. So no wonder why Sonia picked him as DM for the last 7 years! In fact he never completed his turn as CM in Kerala even though he was CM for 3 occasions. He is never fight straight, always be defensive- so defense minister.
R Nair
Prasun ,
Will you plz take a look at this link
http://www.defensenews.com/article/20140212/DEFREG03/302120040/Tata-Officials-Forecast-Big-Boost-14-Defense-Sales
It states that the Tata order book is more than $1.3 billion and sales in 2014 will increase from $283 million to $400 million,
jumping 40 percent.
Will you plz explain what is their business model because of which they are so very successful ?
Many Thanks
Why Pakistani forces are using the F-16 to bomb their own population. Why they are not using the Jf-17 for this purpose.
Rao and Pillai are Malayali names? What has happened to Kerala where almost every person once had names like Chako Thomas, A.G.Kurian, R.Verghese, Vinoo Joseph, Pramod John?
@Prasunda
1)Mighty Disappointed with the doing away of a bull pup option for the MCIWS, especially when the Indian Armed Forces Swear by Tavors and the whole world is moving towards such solutions. Any particular reason for this monumental mistake??
2)The Advent of the SAR with GMTI bodes well for the Indian Air Force and Army, adds a lethal punch to the IAF and IA for the BAI operations. Would love to know if the SAR payloads would now be integrated in the AEW&CS and Dhruvs or Mi-17V5s?
3)What would be the role of SAR payloads and IR sensors atop Aerostats? Could they be used as RISTA platforms deep inside our own territory once they are integrated seamlessly to the Sensor to Shooter Networks of the IA/IAF?
4)Given the time frame of 2025 for the first squadron of Tejas MK2, I presume various cutting edge 5th generation technologies are bound to make their way through to the Tejas MK2. Your thoughts?
5)Going slightly off topic, do you feel that Illegal Migration from Bangladesh and Rohingyas in Myanmar has been dealt with firmly or does it continue unabated? Are the figures as staggering as 3-5 crores as being claimed, considering Bengal too? And isn't it possible that a sizeable portion of these Bangladeshis were actually Hindus??
6) It appears Gen.V.K.Singh is going to be out next Defence Minister, can we look to him with some hope?? And why is it that you aren't being part of the Government, I have more trust on you than even the general.
Regards
Prasun sir, war clounds are forming over Ukraine...Times of India reports Russian parliament upper house has approved an attack on Ukraine-held Crimean peninsula.
Various reports saying thousands of Russian soldiers, many APCs and other armored vehicles are entering the theatre. Other Russian army and air force units are conducted massed combat exercises.
Another report says pro-Russian rebels in Crimea have seized control of strategic airfields and that 8 Russian cargo planes (IL-76) had landed in Crimea already.
What do you think could happen?
I would like it if you would do a write-up about the strategic situation there.
Warm days ahead.
For being the RM, there should be an AAPlike referendum between the General and Sri PKS and whosoever comes second shall be made the Home Minister. In my opinion the General will be an excellent Home Minister.
Prasun Da ,
Hope you are doing good .
I had this question about the P8 . Recently US media reported that the performance of the P8A was less than satisfactory . While many in India claimed that this means that the performance of the P8I is also less than satisfactory , fact remains that the P8A & P8I uses different sensors .
Can you please list the sensors in the P8I that are different from the P8A ?
As ever , many thanks .
-Sujoy
Prasun,
Why is Indian Air Force looking for lead-in-fighter aircrafts, when it already has BAE Hawk 132 in its inventory?
Australian RAAF operates 33 of them as LIFT trainers but Indian Air Force wants another category? Even BAE thinks they are LIFT trainers. See:
In Aussie air show today, when I asked them bout it, Aussie pilots were astonished that IAF wanted four types of trainers. They wanted to know why?
So is Indian Air Force fooling us because Indian politicians and media people have no technical knowledge??
The links is following:
http://www.baesystems.com/our-company-rzz/our-businesses/bae-systems-australia/about-us/major-projects
Prasun sir, one more thing -
http://idrw.org/?p=34114
VK Singh has joined BJP. The article above speculates will he be made the next RM if BJP(NDA) wins in next elections? I think it will be very good for the services if he becomes RM, but I don't think it's possible due to politics.
What's your opinion?
Prasun Da ,
One more question about the P8 .
Australian businesses have already won approximately $8.5 million of work associated with Australia’s participation in the P-8A program. According to Australian MoD , Australian companies stand to benefit by as much as $1 billion through construction of facilities at RAAF Base Edinburgh in South Australia and elsewhere and work to meet maintenance and other support needs.
http://defense-update.com/20140225_australian_poseidon.html
Will private Indian companies receive any such benefits from the IN's purchase of the P8 ?
Thanks again ,
Sujoy
Prasun Da ,
Former Navy Chief Admiral Bhagwat said last week that BJP and Cong has drowned India's Naval security by signing a series of agreements with USA & UK .
http://www.thenewsminute.com/stories/BJP%20and%20Cong%20drowned%20India's%20Naval%20security:%20Former%20Naval%20Chief?utm_content=buffere0abd&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer#.UxRJYeOSzZH
Any truth in these allegations ?
Regards,
Vikram
Vanderpin,
Nirupama Rao's born in Kerala in "Menon" family, married to an IAS officer named Rao.
"Pillai" is the sur/last name bestowed upon for Nair people in South Kerala. "Pillai" were administrators and military personalities of erstwhile Travancore (south Kerala) kings. Their valiant is well known as they wholly defeated Tipu Sultan's invasion of Kerala. Otherwise Kerala would have been another Muslim Kashmir long back (present day Kerala is also changing to Muslim and Christian dominated and Hindus have become a minority as their population fell below 50%).
R Nair
To R NAIR: The worst was obviously Krishna Menon for it was during his watch that India lost out to China in the fall of 1962. During Babu Jagjivan Ram’s tenure as RM in March 1971, the Indian Army had only 6 serviceable MBTs. During R Ventakaraman’s time in the early 1980s, India took the disastrous decision of inducting the MiG-23MF, MiG-23BN, MiG-27M & MiG-29B-12 when all that the IAF wanted was only Mirage 2000 MRCA. Similarly, when the IN chose only the SSK from Kockums in the early 1980s, the MoD went for four Class 209/Type 1500 SSKs & 8 Type 877EKM/Kilo-class SSKs. Sharad Pawar as Defence Minister played havoc with the Super Fledermaus AAA fire-control system’s upgrade by awarding the upgrade contract to Ericsson instead of the OEM Oerlikon-Contraves. George Fernandes fucked up big time by failing to 1) officially share the ‘Strategic Defence Review’ with both India’s Parliament & with India’s citizens; & 2) undertake the structural re-organisation of the MoD. Therefore, the worst is Krishna Menon, second-worst is George Fernandes & third is A K Antony, who has only compounded all the problems left unrectified by George Fernandes. That both Krishna Menon & A K Antony hail from Kerala & are Malayalees is mere coincidence. Being a Malayalee is not any credible yardstick for measuring one’s efficiency/inefficiency or work ethic. One gets people of all shades from various communities.
To DEFENSE & AEROPSPACE: TATA Group has a huge market portfolio, starting with automotives-based solutions to strategic electronics for all three armed services. It is a comprehensive footprint that remains unmatched.
To Mr.RA 13: Because the JF-17 does not have all-weather precision targetting capability as yet. The WMD-7 LDP is still undergoing fune-tuning, whereas the F-16s can use the SNIPER LDP with ease by day & night.
To SUJOY MAJUMDAR: Made-in-India avionics of the P-8I were already uploaded way back in 2012. All sensors except the IFF transponder are of US origin. Only degradation is the SAR resolution of the Raytheon APY-10 multi-mode radar. But for the IN< this radar has an interleaved weather mapping/airspace surveillance mode & the rear-looking Telephonics APS-143 search radar ca do air-search as well as surface search. This radar is not on board the P-8A. All in all, I terms of sensor-fitment, the P-8I is SUPERIOR to the P-8A. Uploading & updating of the P-8I’s EW threat library is now in progress. Therefore, when operating within the IOR, the P-8I will easily outperform the P-8A. In Australia, it is mandatory to offer 50% industrial offsets (direct & indirect) in support of major procurement programmes. In India’s case, this isn’t mandatory & the offsets content varies between 30% & 50%. Furthermore, the MoD doesn’t like indirect offsets.
To KUMAR: For the very same reason that the USAF as well as some ASEAN air forces continue to use the F-5 as a LIFT. LIFT is reqd by those air forces that have tandem-seat MRCAs in large numbers, since cockpit resource management (CRM) techniques are best taught on board lightweight, supersonic tandem-seat MRCAs—which the Hawk isn’t & neither is the Yak-130 or M-346.
To VIKRAM GUHA: It is extremely distressing to see a former bright CNS to go completely off his rocker by making such outlandish allegations that can never be either proven nor debated in a rational manner. He wasn’t like that when I first met him in April 1998. Maybe it’s an enduring depression he’s suffering from, which results in such wild outburstsd.
To ABS: 1) If it’s any consolation, even the IDF does not use Tavors on an industrial scale. Therefore, the DRDO-developed MCIWS is by no means a monumental mistake. 2) DRDO-developed SAR payload is still in the technology maturation stage it will take at least another 4 years to become deployable. For IA’s reqmts, the Mi-17V-5 can easily accommodate such battlefield SAR payloads & their mission management consoles. Question is: will the end-user see the benefits of such an option? 3) Peacetime monitoring of force movements along the LAC, LoC, & IB. 4) Hopefully. My thoughts as well as those of the IAF have been well-known ever since the IAF in 2012 insisted on a radical makeover of the Tejas Mk2. 5) Majority of the Bangladeshi migrants inside India since 1971 have been non-Muslims. Rohingyas are originally from Myanmar’s Arakan province. 6) Don’t think VKS will aspire to become the RM. For he alone can’t undertake the transformational changes required, which I will highlight a bit later this week in the next thread. BTW, leaders aren’t made. They come as born leaders, just as there are born musicians, born mathematicians, born singers, etc. That’s why Ashoka, who remains faceless till this day, was a leader. Chanakya was a leader, but Chandragupta Maurya was only a follower of Chanakya. Krishna, Moses, Jesus, Buddha, Mahavira, & M K Gandhi were all leaders. But none of them held any political or military office. Only exceptions to this rule were George Washington, Nelson Mandela, Mao, Kamal Ataturk & Salahaddin Ayyubi. Therefore, what India needs today is not a leader or a messaiah, but someone who adopts the ways & means of past leaders of global standing.
To GESSLER: Russia knows that it cannot delay Ukraine’s accession to the EU & NATO for long. Therefore, it has decided to play its cards in a pre-emptive manner by taking advantage of the on-going political turmoil in Ukraine & consolidating its hold over those areas where Russia-orogin/Russia-speaking communities are in a majority. It is similar to what Russia did after it fought a brief border war with Georgia in the previous decade. Nothing to be alarmed about.
To Mr.RA 13: Having a functional & wise Defence Minister/RM & a like-minded Union Home Minister isn’t enough, because under the Indian system, when it comes to defence, it is the holy trinity of the PM, RM & Union MoF that together call the shots. A K Antony, despite his best efforts, cannot force either Dr MMS or P Chidambaram to release more funds for defence expenditure, nor can he unilaterally undertake the long-overdue structural reforms within the MoD. In other words, what one needs most is a pragmatic Union Finance Minister who is supported to the hilt by his/her PM & there’s unity of purpose. This is what had happened in early 2004 when Jaswant Singh as Union Finance Minister had introduced the US$22 billion non-lapsable defence modernisation fund. Had UPA-1 not terminated this fund, then by now the first three Rafale squadrons would already have been operational with the IAF.
To TECHNOLOGY, PHOTOGRAPHY & TRAVEL: Agni-2 & Agni-1 are already obsolete & are overdue for replacement by the Agni-4 & Shaurya. Agni-1/2 both use strapdown inertial reference systems, while Agni-4/5, K-15 & Shaurya use RLG-INS coupled to GPS receiver.
Thanks Prasun Da
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