PNS Azmat Launched, First ZDK-03 AEW & CS For PAF Airborne
The Pakistan Navy’s Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Noman Bashir was the Chief Guest on September 20 at the launching ceremony of the first of two FAC-Ms being built for the Pakistan Navy at China’s Xingang Shipyard in Tianjin on September 20. Each FAC-M, displacing 260 tonnes and armed with four C-802A anti-ship cruise missiles, is manned by a crew complement of 20.—Prasun K. Sengupta
37 comments:
how many of these will pn get
wasnt pn abt to get type022?
PN will receive two of these, plus two Type 022 Hobei-class FAC-Ms for protecting the approaches to Gwadar from the Straits of Hormuz, plus four stealthy 1,500-tonne littoral combatant vessels also designed by China, and the two Jinkai-class FFGs (525 and 526) on a 10-year lease.
i think you conveniently forgot to mention that it was designed by Pakistan Navy School of Logistics and Management, Bahria University and Pakistan Navy Engineering College (PNS Jauhar)...
@Prasun,any news on the Sudarshan LGB kit??Last year it was reported to be successfully tested from a IAF Jaguar with 5 m CEP and IAF cleared it for production.So,has it entered into production or still under testing??
PLEASE try to reply.
Thanks.
The ship lacks basic Air Defense capability like fast guns or short range missile.
Mr Anon Pakistani @10 : 42 AM
If You are an Engineer then YOU must KNOW that making a DESIGN for any
Machinery or Equipment is Just a SIMPLE and BASIC thing
What is IMPORTANT is MANUFACTURING Abilities
Pakistan's Manufacturing Abilities are very RUDIMENTARY
BREAKING NEWS
My Dear Indian JINGO Brothers
SHAURYA Missile has been Test
Fired Successfully
HI Prasun,
An article on Global proliferation of missile tech would be nice.
The KH55 obtained by china(C 602) and Iran,How did Tehran and Beijing benefit from KH55s delivered to it?
You mentioned Brahmos II hypersonic missile not an operational reqmnt.So whhy is GOI pursuing this?What will this do in an operational scenario that Brahmos I would not do apart from hypersonic speed? Is it an effort to advance cruise missille tech and graduate to next level?
anon@4.22
Hahaha it's not that we can't build a simple gunboat when we are building Agosts Submarines.The problem is cost.we can outsource construction to china and have it built there at a fraction of the cost compared to pakistan, where wages are higher considering most pakistanis are well educated and hence expect more salary.its just like intel, not that americans don't have any capability of making intel chips, but get it manufactured in china due to the cost advantage. even america acknowledges this but india still thinks its manufacturing is more cost effective than Chinas...and by the way if its so easy to design a warship i wonder why india had to buy even Super Dvoras from Israel. Ok and cut the crap about Shivalik, it is a bought off-the-shelf design from Severnoye Design Bureau with active support of Krylov Shipbuilding Research Institute andstaleiros Navais de Viana do Castelo
To Anon@10.42AM: If the vessel was designed in Pakistan then why is the lead boat being built in China? KSEW have been in a position to built both boats in-country. Leave alone such boats, even the scale-models of such boats are not built in Pakistan, but are bought from a Singapore-based firm. And the photo I've uploaded above was taken in April 2010 at the COSC's booth, and not at KSEW's booth, during the DSA 2010 expo. You're of course free to now accuse COSC of 'stealing' KSEW's design!!!
To Anurag: The LGB kit is still undergoing fine-tuning.
To Austin: The FAC-Ms will have Anza Mk2 MANPADS on board.
To Anon@5.14PM: If according to you China enjoys the cost advantage concerning produced products then why build only one FAC-M in China, and why not both? No one has ever claimed that designing warships is easy and even after a design is complete, it has to be validated by independent consultants. The design bought off-the-shelf you're referring to concerns the AOPVs to be built by Pipavav Shipyard, and not the Project 17 Shivalik-class FFGs. And lastly, India has not only bought much smaller-sized vessels from Israel, but also from France, Greece and now from Sri Lanka. It has nothing to do with vessel design or construction. It is all about capacity generation within a short span of time.
Confusion over specs
Mr Sengupta,
it's seems there is a lot of confusion over the precise specifications of the PNS Azmat and her possible sisters.
Some Pakistani media sources listed the crew complement at 12-14 which would put it at roughly the same requirements as the Type-022 class rather than the new design you showed.
http://paktribune.com/news/Pak-Navy-Fast-Attack-Craft-launched-243804.html
This defensenews article claims its a "heavy" missile boat displacing over 500 tonnes-
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=7742911&c=SEA&s=TOP
The defensenews article can be corroborated by the fact that the Pakistanis had tendered to buy a pair of big missile boats a year or so ago.
http://www.informationdissemination.net/2011/09/chinese-500-ton-fac-for-pakistan.html
what kind of guidance system is present on pinaka mbrl ??
is it true that pinaka rockets have a cep of about 400-500mtrs...???
why gps guidence is not used on pinaka rockets ??
any update on tejas mk2 and arjun mk2 ??
plzz do upload the pics as soon as u r allowed to.....
sir how many variants of insas are actually present in service....the ofb site shows a lot of insas variants.....namely assault rifle , standard rifle , ex calibur , kalantak , amogh carbine , modern submachine carbine (MSMC)
so how many of the above are in service actually ???
The Shourya missile tested today was picked up from the production lot.
Please inform in what manner our defense preparedness needs to be improved, with the inclusion of fast attack PNS Azmat like stealthy featured crafts by Pakistan.
I have a couple of questions regarding choppers.
I thought the ALH Dhruv was specifically developed for high altitude areas as a replacemnt for the Cheetahs and Chetaks. Then why does the 114 HU in Leh still use Cheetahs? Also if the ALH replaces the Cheetahs and Chetaks what role will the 197 Light copters to be ordered as well as the LUH play?
To Anon@5.55PM: The photos released thus far of the first FAC-M clearly bear a strong resemblance to the one I’ve posted above and it proves beyond doubt that these FAC-Ms are not catamarans like the Type 022 Hobei-class. Nor will they displace 600 tonnes each. The heavy missile boat report is erroneous, as are the tender specs quoted by the DEFENSE NEWS report. The two Type 022 Hobei-class catamarans will be acquired off-the-shelf, with no licence-assembly being done by KSEW. The next shipbuilding JV between KSEW and COSC will produce 1,500-tonne stealthy littoral combatant vessels.
To Anon@7.32PM: The existing rockets fired by the Pinaka MBRL system have on them the TCS. Read this for more info on TCS: http://www.imi-israel.com/home/doc.aspx?mCatID=68414
For ensuring land navigation & north-pointing accuracy for the Pinaka MBRL’s launch vehicle, use is made of the Sigma-30 INS (read this: http://www.sagem-ds.com/spip.php?rubrique111)
To Mr.RA: The Pakistan Navy’s FAC-Ms—whether mono-hulled vessels or Type 022 Hobei-class catamarans--can each carry only four C-802A ASCMs, not eight. Such vessels are normally for coastal patrol and are easily detected by maritime reconnaissance aircraft and MALE-UAVs like the Searcher Mk2 and Heron-1. Nothing to be worried about, since these FAC-Ms are used only for littoral warfare and that too when operating in and around coves like the ones in the Andaman & Nicobar Island chains and the Spratlys/Paracels. Therefore, I wouldn’t lose any sleep over the existence of such FAC-Ms in my neighbourhood. In case such vessels are employed for offensive purposes, the FAC-Ms will be easily detected by the coastal surveillance radars that will soon dot the coastlines of Gujarat and Saurashtra. Furthermore, since these FAC-Ms do not possess an appreciable degree of integral air-defence cover, they will never venture beyond the maritime surveillance coverage provided by the PN’s P-3C Orions or Saab 2000 AEW & Cs. Thus, the FAC-Ms will be restricted to only within Pakistan’s territorial waters. Therefore, in the event of a future round of hostilities, one of the first tasks of the Indian Navy will be to render inoperable the two/three air bases housing the P-3Cs and Saab 2000 AEW & C platforms in Sindh and Baluchistan, by employing vertically-launched BrahMos Block-2 land attack cruise missiles. A salvo of 16 such missiles fired by no more than two Kashin 2-class DDGs will suffice. Only after this has been done will the Indian Navy’s carrier-based battle group will be able to commence its tactical manoeuvres along a west-to-east ‘sweep’ axis starting from the Gulf of Hormuz, then locating the shore-based land-mobile C-602 anti-ship cruise missile launchers (and their 120 missiles) with the help of MiG-29Ks and neutralising them. At the same time the Ka-31s employed for AEW plus the P-8I LRMR/ASW platforms will also be able to locate and track the offshore targets like FAC-Ms and FFGs and neutralise them with Kh-59ME air-launched anti-ship cruise missiles. All this can be achieved within a 7-day period. The challenge can be met militarily, but the main stumbling block will be political: will the GoI allow the Indian Navy to fight without its hands tied? Will the GoI be able to withstand the enormous pressure that will be applied by an OIC led by Saudi Arabia (as was the case in mid-1999) to spare Pakistan’s maritime lifelines? It would appear that, based on past events in 1999 and 2002, the GoI has traditionally shied away from taking the correct and tough decisions when they were needed most.
To Anon@10.47PM: Let’s first get the physics right. A twin-engined light medium-lift helicopter can never replace a single-engined light utility helicopter. The twin-engined Dhruv ALH was never developed to replace the single-engined SA.315B Lama/Cheetah or SA.316B Alouette III/Chetak. Even though the Dhruv ALH and the to-be-acquired single-engined LUH are optimised for high-altitude flight operations, their mission profiles are different and are used for different purposes. It is the to-be-acquired single-engined LUHs that will replace the Cheetahs and Chetaks. But having said that, the re-engined Cheetal and Chetan variants of the Cheetah and Chetak still have a lot of life left in them (for at least another 15 years) and can therefore be gainfully employed by the likes of the BSF and ITBP. In fact, HAL and Alpha Technologies Pvt Ltd have together developed ultra-light avionics packages for these venerable machines, including AMLCD cockpit displays, comms radios, and radar warning receivers coupled with countermeasures dispensers. It needs to be borne in mind that even Central Armed Police Forces like the BSF and ITBP have helicopter-based air support demands that need to be met urgently.
Any news on the status of Supersonic ALCM jointly developed with Israel.
Could you give its specifications?How much of it will be indigenous?
We buy a lot of stuff from Israel but what we most need to buy from that small country is its GUTS ... I am not saying that we dont have it but how much of it we posses will be seen in our actions in south chini sea after the warning from chini about oil exploration by ONGC near Vietnam...
what do you think?????????????
@shree
agree on the guts point.
as an assumed pacifist nation, self assumed because of the lack of courage, self confidence, and ofcourse the wherewithal to otherwise, we always shied away from that 4 letter word. for a small country it is an existential problem, while for us it is a matter of integrity which we rarely bother.
But regarding the s.china sea incident, the chinese did what they had to do. They claim the area and they donot want it to be gone unopposed to any contestant. If they allow one exploration it will become an excuse for 10 such.
But our reaction is not what it should have been. Opposing a giant in its backyard needs the thing you mentioned..guts. Nor do we have the resources to open conflict with china and get the exploration continuing. Neither Vietnam nor India has the capability to keep the project ongoing if china opposes it by teeth. if an untoward incident happens around that it will be a moral backlash to India and its ambitions in ASEAN. we are giving China a chance to give us a blow like 61.
such rhetoric can only be made if we have the guts to confront china in Indian ocean, a kind of stalemate, and it is a million dollar question which any one can win that whether we do have such capabily.
going to strategic partnership with Vietnam is one thing while putting your billions open for an enemy to blow you is another. open a conflict with a bigger enemy only when you have a chance to win, otherwise you will be fighting an already lost battle.
May be Prasunda can have a take on this.
To Shree & Anon@1.31AM: Prudence suggests that India refrain from any kind of oil exploration activities in the South China Sea until the binding code of conduct is formalised between China and ASEAN. That is the only realistic course of action available right now.
As for importing GUTS, this virtue used to exist in India since tens of thousands of years ago and was correctly and judiciously put to use under the overall concept of Dharamyudha, or righteous war. Regretably, since the previous century this concept has been maligned, corrupted and superceded by the doctrine of non-violence-induced pacifism, which should have no role whatsoever in realpolitik--if common sense and logical reasoning are applied. And after listening to the Indian PM's speech at the UN General Assembly yesterday, it became more than evident that India's decision-making mandarins have chosen to perpetuate their utopian existence by sticking to the descredited concept of pacifism.
Regarding the ALCM, here's the link for specifications: http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/09/first-look-indias-long-range-cruise.html
The navigation and propulsion systems of the ALCM will be indigenous as the former is already in production for missiles like the BrahMos, Shaurya and Prahaar. Only the two-way data-link plus terminal imaging infra-red seeker as part of the digital scene co-relation matching system will be imported from Israel.
To Shree & Anon@1.31AM: Just try to absorb and analyse the inherent contradictions in the Indian PM’s speech at the UN General Assembly yesterday:
Remark 1: “societies cannot be re-engineered by outsiders”---------But isn’t the India of today itself re-engineered, thanks to invasions staged by the Huns, Kushans, Turks, Mughals and the English over the past millennium? Had the Brits not re-engineered India during their colonization, then today India would in all probability still be using Farsi as the method of instruction instead of English.
Remark 2: “Dr. Singh devoted a substantial part of his speech to addressing the growing reliance on the use of force by Western powers to engage with political conflicts, often legitimised as humanitarian interventions.”------------doesn’t the PM know that this is precisely what India did to the Portuguese in Goa, in Hyderabad in 1961, in East Pakistan in 1971 and Sikkim in 1975? How can the mandarins of the MEA even dream of being so sanctimonious?
Remark 3: “The observance of the rule of law is as important in international affairs as it is within countries. Societies cannot be re-ordered from outside through military force. People in all countries have the right to choose their own destiny and decide their own future.”-------------if indeed that’s the case, then why does India continue to reiterate that the Tibet Autonomous region is an inalienable part of China? Why can’t the Govt of India accord legitimacy to the Dharamsala-based Tibetan Govt-in-Exile?
Remark 4: “The fight against terrorism must be unrelenting. There cannot be selective approaches in dealing with terrorist groups or the infrastructure of terrorism. Terrorism has to be fought across all fronts.”-------------------if that’s indeed the case then why on earth did the PM unilaterally declare in mid-2005 that the peace process between India and Pakistan was irreversible? And does this remark mean that India has forever discarded the option of using offensive military force to reign in a recalcitrant neighbour that is for all intents and purposes a failed state? And if that indeed is the case, are India’s armed forces from now on to be used only for constabulary duties?
Remark 5: “Nuclear proliferation continues to remain a threat to global security. The Action Plan put forward by Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi for a Nuclear-Weapon-Free and Non-Violent World provides even today a concrete road map for achieving nuclear disarmament in a time-bound, universal, non-discriminatory, phased and verifiable manner.”----------------Who is the PM of India? Dr MMS or Rajiv Gandhi? Shouldn’t it be rephrased as “the then PM Rajiv Gandhi”?
Needless to say, speeches like these make India look like a fence-sitter, ever willing to avoid taking tough decisions, and turn India into a global laughing stock. Most uninspiring leadership from both regional and national security perspectives, to say the least. The full text of the Indian PM’s speech can be read at: http://www.thehindu.com/news/resources/article2482449.ece
To Shree: This is how India combats Maoist insurgencies nowadays: http://www.indianexpress.com/news/living-in-a-place-unfit-for-humans-a-battalion-revolts/851367/0
To AUSTIN: Read this: http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?278421
sir how many variants of insas are actually present in service....the ofb site shows a lot of insas variants.....namely assault rifle , standard rifle , ex calibur , kalantak , amogh carbine , modern submachine carbine (MSMC)
so how many of them are in service actually ??
sir are they doing anything to reduce the already huge rcs odf su 30mki in the upcoming upgrades ???
is it true that su 30mki's rcs even from the fronyal sctor is around 15-20mtr sq in when in clean config ???
plzz di give the ans sir....eagerly wwaiting for them....thnks in advance....
are they also going to relive the airframes in the upgrade ??
To Prasun: Thanks , This really shows that its not just MOD but successive Army Chief has played the game like you said before and they have played in Tango with MOD.
Sometimes the script goes wrong and we have VKS like problem but even this phase will pass away and life at MOD will go on as usual.
i read your response to that pak psycho - but what boats are we importing from Ceylon?
btw that analysis to pm's rubbish speech is spot-on. with the support for arab rogue regimes and support for palestine, this italian-bootlicking spineless shemale manmohan is just trying to pander his dear minority (islamist) vote-bank...
Dear Sir
Please answer my question
The Shaurya missile will carry ONE Ton Warhead
So If we reduce the warhead weight and in place of a conventional warhead ,
If we use instead A 350 KG Nuclear bomb Then Can its RANGE be increased from 750 KM
"And the photo I've uploaded above was taken in April 2010 at the COSC's booth, and not at KSEW's booth, during the DSA 2010 expo." ===================================
KSEC is the biggest flop of Pakistan and have no right to even have a presence in any show. It has been miserably failed by our hopeless politicians, especially that traitors MQM. Hardly anybody works there, and those who do are all politician's / military personnel relatives. It's agreed and accepted that our shipbuilding facilities are below par.
===================================
"If according to you China enjoys the cost advantage concerning produced products then why build only one FAC-M in China, and why not both?"
You yourself answered this question at the end of that very same comment: "It is all about capacity generation within a short span of time."
===================================
"No one has ever claimed that designing warships is easy and even after a design is complete" --
Exactly, this is what I said. We lack very modern production facilities (although knowhow exists), but are completely capable of designing ships in this class. The fact is this ship was 90% designed in Pakistan with only powertrain related design and design validation done in China. If you find it hard to swallow, for a starter, Chinese naval engineers learned Tribon M3 and Nupas-Cadmatic from Bahria/PNS Jauhar. Prior to that China had little knowledge on using integrated suites and use to rely on packages of standalone software e.g. Autocad, Tekla etc.
===================================
"it has to be validated by independent consultants." --
It was validated in China.
===================================
"leave alone such boats, even the scale-models of such boats are not built in Pakistan, but are bought from a Singapore-based firm."
So what are you suggesting now? Singapore designed it? I have in front of me a scale model of a Mazda Tribute that came with my car. It's labelled Made in Taiwan. So I guess my Mazda is a Taiwanese? Or probably an American car since the car itself is built in Claycomo?
===================================
"As for importing GUTS, this virtue used to exist in India since tens of thousands of years ago and was correctly and judiciously put to use under the overall concept of Dharamyudha, or righteous war. Regretably, since the previous century this concept has been maligned, corrupted and superceded by the doctrine of non-violence-induced pacifism,"--- GRAND.
is t true that the radar onthe drdo awac's will have a coverage of only 270 degrees instead of 360degrees.....if yes then why , and why was it allowed ???
Plzz shed more light on this radar.
How indigenous awac's are planned for iaf ?? And is true that iaf has asked to look for larger platforms ??
To Anon@11.24AM: AFAIK, the Excalibur , Kalantak , Amogh carbine and modern submachine carbine (MSMC) have not yet entered production. A lot of work has already been done to reduce the Su-30MKI’s RCS characteristics like application of radar-absorbing paint. Whenever any combat aircraft is subjected to a mid-life upgrade, the airframe and engines too are always relifed.
To AUSTIN: That’s right. If at all administrative reforms need to be carried out by the MoD, then such reforms must also make sure that the armed services chiefs do not run their institutions in an autocratic manner, especially with regard to promotions and manipulation of the line of succession. All such practices can and should be done away with and this can be done only if the post of CDS is created without any further delay and then it will be the CDS along with HQ IDS and its CIDS who will then be held accountable as the topmost military advisers to the GoI for all decisions affecting the armed forces.
To Anon@11.55AM: The FACs are for the Sagar Prahari Bal. Read this: http://www.colombopage.com/archive_11A/Jun30_1309443637CH.php
To Anon@2.23PM: Yes.
To Anon@4.44PM: Capacity generation and economies of scale always go hand in hand and therefore construction of both FAC-Ms in China would have been the logical choice since—as you allege—KSEW is not up to the task of warship construction. Building one of each in China and Pakistan does not in any way contribute to capacity generation, but merely provision of jobs/employment opportunities at KSEW. As for Chinese naval architects (not engineers as you’ve stated) learning Tribon M3 and Nupas-Cadmatic from Bahria/PNS Jauhar, as far back as 2004 both CSTC and CSIC were using such CAD software. One can hardly expect one of the world’s top three shipbuilding nation to seek Pakistan’s help in mastering CAD/CAM applications. And if as you claim it was Pakistan teaching China the art of ship-design CAD usage, then logically the design validation would have to be done by a third party, since China could not have achieved proficiency in usage of Tribon M3 and Nupas-Cadmatic CAD tools within such a short timeframe. Your claims are therefore laughable at best and highly mischievous at worst. Lastly, I’m not suggesting or insinuating anything of the type that your wild imaginations have conjured up, rather I’m just stating facts.
To Anon@5.33PM: Yes, the IAF wants and has larger AEW & C platforms. In addition to the three received so far, the IAF has ordered two more A-50I platforms. As for the indigenous AEW & CS, go to: http://trishul-trident.blogspot.com/2011/05/full-spectrum-hawk-eyes.html
http://www.colombopage.com/archive_11A/Jun30_1309 - page is not viewable sir..
Try these: http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-07-01/india/29725794_1_coastal-security-kochi-and-port-blair-sagar-prahari-bal
http://www.domain-b.com/defence/sea/indian_navy/20110701_lankan_firm_oneView.html
^^tq
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