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Thursday, January 12, 2012

Their’s….And Our’s

Since a picture is worth a thousand words, I leave it to you all to judge for yourselves as to whether it is China or India that has superior ground infrastructure facilities like aircraft shelters for their respective fleets of new-generation combat aircraft and force multipliers like AEW & C platforms.
On another topic, based on what’s happening at Russia’s Gromov Flight-test Centre in Zhukovsky, it appears that the IAF’s upgraded MiG-29UPG M-MRCAs will be capable of firing Kh-35 subsonic anti-ship cruise missiles.
Lastly, below is a photo of a scale-model of the Z-19WG light combat helicopter, developed by China’s AVIC, which is being optimised for warfare at higher altitudes. For those with any eye for details, this photo graphically illustrates what AVIC has done right, and where HAL has gone terribly wrong with its LCH design.

29 comments:

Anonymous said...

About the Z-19WG:

Stepped canopy, low-slung FLIR, fantail, swept weapon stubs, blended landing gear brace... Does that sound about right, Mr Gupta, or have I missed something?

Anonymous said...

The tail of Z-19WG is different. Does an enclosed rotor provide better protection against light caliber ammunition while making low flights?

Anonymous said...

well the chinese shelters aren't that great either....so whats the point....??

sir are you trying to point that faulty ground maintainence was the reason of the crashes ???

as for chinese light combat helo....the things i can point out are...

better crew protection

fesestron tail rotor

"quad launcher of atgms"

suggesting better and powerfull stub wings

a mounted radar-probably mmr

enclosed gun and chin mounted optronics

5 blade rotor.....

better stealth features and thats pretty much it....

Heberian said...

Hello Prasun -

Would you please elaborate about what the Z-19 has got right that the LCH did not?

About our basic storm shelter and such infra, well, the less said the better.

Thank you!

dashu said...

I would like to know
what the Z-19 has got right that the HAL did not?
One clearly visible difference is better pilot protection rest are pretty much similar I guess.

dashu said...

one more difference look wise Z-19 is better and compact.

SSG said...

Prasun, you posted about the SU nuke umbrella for India from the 70s. But what was the nature of the umbrella ? Does it involve armed vector to be based on Indian soil ? Then there must be a very credible deterrence even if POK-II had completely failed.

Also late in 1995 the Russian daily Komsomolskaya Pravda claimed

"Russian National Security Council, stated that a secret Russian military report recommended supply of 45 Topol-M ballistic missiles to India in 10 years. Apparently the idea was discussed at a secret meeting between the late Gen. Sundarji and a Russian representative at a conference on international stability, at a US base in Virginia. Topol-M represents the latest Russian ballistic missile technology, where the option of arming it with MIRV (Multiple Independently Targetable Re-entry Vehicles) warheads remain open. Those warheads are of MARV (Manoeuvring Re-entry Vehicle) type, being able to manoeuvre in enemy airspace to defeat ABM (Anti-Ballistic Missile) defences. "

And here is the link :

http://www.thestatesman.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=24232:SOMETHING%20AWRY%20IN%20OUR%20DEFENCES?&catid=38:editorial&from_page=search

Is there any truth in it? The involvement of Russians with the ATV project indicates it is very possible. It is also possible that India had sought Russian / Israeli help for designing the TN bomb.

Will like to hear from you.

Anonymous said...

This helicopter in-corporates many lessons that PA has learnt in GWOT and aginst the USSR in afghanistan. Its being partly funded by PA. These heli's will also be produced in Pakistan. PA will have its own version with quite a bit of Turkish content....and oh it's price will be less than 10 million dollars.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Anon@11.08AM: The point is simply that the Chinese do have such shelters, but does India have them?

To SSG: There was no n-umbrella given by anyone to India, and that is precisely why India had to develop her own strategic weapons.

To All: Will upload the analaysis of design differences between the LCH & Z-19WG before daybreak, along with photos of the LCH.

Heberian said...

Thank you, Prasun!

sbm said...

Prasun, I have seen a few are coming up. We should also point out these are not HAS but weather shelters to store and maintain aircraft.

What is more these are relatively cheap things to do.

On another point, the 30mm guns on the Trinkat, Bangaram and Car Nicobar class seem to have some kind of electro-optical control. What is it ?

The 30mm CRN-91 has been given ranges of between 4-5km what is hit probability at those ranges ?

Ra 13 said...

The eagerly awaited competition between Rafale and EFT may not only decide the future course of actions but may answer many other questions.

Curious said...

Prasun,

It appears that the much talked about (aka. rumoured) session at the MOD for the MMRCA contenders was yet another false alarm for us poor laypeople!! If you happen to have any idea, what exactly is going on here? From a possible decision in early December to post Christmas to early January..... Are there underhand dealings going on or are strategic equations being worked out?

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

TO SBM: They are called 'storm shelters' and are used to shield the aircraft from the vagaries of the weather. Yes, they do come cheap, but the point remains as to why have they not come up in large numbers since 2002. Regarding the optronic fire-director for the CRN-91s, it is a BEL-built system that has proven to be inadequate (for target detection, identification & fire-direction) and are now being replaced by the ELBIT Systems-supplied MiniCOMPASS turrets housing a FLIR, daylight TV sensor & a built-in laser rangefinder. I had wirtten about this in a previous thread.

To Curious: The formal announcement is expected to be coming by the third week of this month. However, it was some Delhi-based rumourmongers/broadcast journalists who were predicting an announcement today.

sbm said...

Prasun, the BEL systems - are they fitted to the Trinkat and Bangaram classes and Microcompass to the Car Nicobars ?

What about the CRN-91 at 4-5km ? Accuracy ?

It seems to be a very reliable weapon.

As far as those storm shelters - I blame the IAF. Even if you have no metal, you can improvise good alternatives.

Curious said...

Prasun @ 11.10pm,

Thanks for the reply. So by your logic if the 'announcement' which was supposed to have happened on Thursday was a rumour, one should also be somewhat circumspect about the claim that the Typhoon was L-1. Since that was point on which this rumour started. Anyway the third week that you talk about is next week!!

Another point which is worrying is the kind of constant rumours/mud-slinging and lobbying associated with various defence deals these days. Who exactly is behind these and what would such interests gain by the confusion? I know its easy to blame the big bad Yanks all the time.

KSK said...

Brazilian Scorpènes which do not have AIP at 2000 tons are significantly larger than Indian ones(1536 tons) ...why is that??

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-YDUE6iLxkgc/TwDP6TyjWCI/AAAAAAAANiY/3WZjFkqWBP4/s1600/1325348956_19061.jpg

Fantastic formation...is it real or photoshoped..........hope IAF does 9 or 12 Su-30MKI formationd flights during Republic day parades....

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To SBM: They’re being retrofitted to all FAC-classes. Accuracy of the CRN-91s be it at any range depends on the sea state, visibility levels, the fire-control system’s gyro-based stability and the gun-turret’s stabilisation system, as you’re well aware. The levels of firing accuracy were less than optimal (less than 50%) in the absence of a stabilised optronic fire-director.
Regarding the storm shelters, there are several non-metallic weather-resistant alternatives available worldwide, especially for high-altitude air bases in J & K. However, the IAF does not seem to be interested in such areas unless and until there’s a peacetime fatality!

To Curious: Obviously various vested interests. There’s a huge amount of money at stake and only those who dare to take calculated risks (by engaging in slugfests and rumour-mongering) have chances of striking it rich. Then there are the consolation prize-seekers like Delhi-based members of the mass-media, who can avail of the periodic handouts, free luncheons or happy-hour jaunts, plus the all-expenses paid excursions to the OEM’s country, countryside, wineyards, Moulin Rouges, etc. In return, these journos can then write ‘motivated’ editorial pieces, and also offer ‘advice’ to the OEMs’ in-house market researchers/country managers who are constantly on the lookout for market intelligence on who’s handling the marketing efforts of company X or company Y, how many meetings they’ve had with which grade of officials at the MoD and service HQs, which serving official prefers to play Golf and where, etc. The best place for discussing confidential matters is at the Golf Course, since there are no other prying ears or eyes there, and no amount of spying or surveillance by any interested party will produce any kind of clinching evidence. Then you have to know about the hospitality care reqmts/demands of Indian officials (civilian and military) and their accompanying spouses during visits abroad during defence/aerospace expos, so that the interested OEMs based in the host country can take care of such reqmts/demands, like those concerned with transportation, accommodation, shopping and sightseeing. I’ve seen it and experienced it all since the late 1980s. The new class of lobbyists that has emerged in India concerns retired senior service officials that are eagerly being gobbled up by OEMS that are prospecting for business in India and therefore require the services of such officials (previously these were all handled by agents or middlemen) in order to understand the ways and means of negotiating the decision-making ladder within both the MoD and the armed services HQs. After all, while the MoD has released various editions of Defence Procurement Manuals, what it has failed to do thus far is publish a hierarchical directory that graphically illustrates the MoD’s decision-making chain of command and the various steps that one is reqd to comply with. Such directories can be easily published as booklets and be distributed freely to all Embassies/High Commissions based in Delhi or be distributed during defence/aerospace expos.

To KSK: That’s because the Brazilians have selected the S-80 version of the Scorpene, which DCNS has co-developed with Spain’s Navantia. Regarding the photograph, I guess that’s the handiwork of the PLAAF’s propaganda dept, purportedly exhorting China’s masses to always think big.

Unknown said...

Hey Prasun,

Could you inform us what is being done to improve the facilities via-a-vis shelters and ground infrastructure. I though there was a pretty big effort by IAF (by TATA) to upgrade all existing airbases extensively to take them to high standards. Also the shelters of the PLA (F) AWACS are significantly inferior to the ones IAF has for their PHALCON AWACS which have proper enclosed hangers. Similarly I believe , unlike in the past, the IAF tries to have infrastructure set up before induction of new platforms. Such as C-130s (with LM already having built 12 state-of -the-art hangers) and most likely will have similar facilities for MMRCA.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Unknown: The improvement in facilities that you refer to is MAFI and covers only landing aids and ATC management. I had written about it in April 2011 in this blog. The hangars for the PHALCONs are for periodic maintenance only ansd that too only in the home-base, and not for daily storage either in the home-base or at any other forward base. The PLAAF shelters for its KJ-2000 AEW & C platforms are for daily storage at forward bases. The hangars for the IAF’s C-130J-30s are also for periodic maintenance at home-base and not for daily storage. Only for US-sourced platforms like the C-130J-30s and C-17As will the IAF have infrastructure set up before induction of the new platforms, since these FMS-based contracts are all turn-key in nature and also involve the timely supply of flying/maintenance simulators. This was not the case with the Su-30MKIs and Hawk Mk.132s, and will not be the case with the PC-7 Mk2s as well. Haphazard planning, at best. Unless such shelters are provided on a war-footing at ALL operational basdes (and not just bthe home bases), the situation will get far worse in future, when the upgraded MiG-29UPGs, upgraded Jaguars with DARIN-3 avionics suites and the upgraded Mirage 2000s become available.

sbm said...

The below 50% was at what range ? 4km ?

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To SBM: At the CRN-91's max range.

sbm said...

max range variously given as 4km and 5km ! which is max ?

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To SBM: 4km is max range of the cannon on paper.

sbm said...

So with a substandard FCS, accuracy is under 50% at 4km ?

Not good but not that bad - especially considering the experience of a certain type of OPV now on its way to Rio.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To SBM: A combination of the CRN-91 with the mini-COMPASS FLIR will achieve far better results by both day and night, since the previous BEL-built optronic director was a day sight.

sbm said...

Prasun - aren't the Car Nicobar's already fitted with the MicroCompass ?
http://www.marinebuzz.com/marinebuzzuploads/CommissioningofINSCarnicobarINSChetlat_109C0/ins_chetlat.jpg

That looks like the BEL made MicroCompass to me.

It is the older vessels of the Trinkat and Bangaram classes that have nothing it would seem.

Hence if the Trinkat and Bangaram can achieve <50% at 4km, the Car Nicobars would achieve a lot better than that.

Austin said...

A picture speaks a thousand words.

Nice One Prasun , Happy New Year to you and your blog readers.

Austin

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Austin: Very many thanks.