Hi Prasun I was just thinking about the cartosat series of sats which have a resolution of 1 meter and below. That should be enough for targeting purposes for the cruise missiles. I believe the imagery are world class. I do also believe that we have totally digitized the terrain of pakistan, so would have china of india. This would have been given to its all weather puppy dog for targeting. This would be in the light if the Chinese missile given to pak and named as the babur. Avinash chander recently said that the Nirbhay cruise missile program is an example of how not to run a cruise missile program. What was he mentioning about?. Its nearly 11 years since the project was started and still nothing. we should have collaborated with Israel and finished it long ago as both are not signatories of the MCTR. This could be on the lines of china getting tech from ukraine. Have we got our own terrain foll avionics that was supposed to be made for the upgraded jaguars? dont you think dsmac is the way forward as it is stealthier?. does the SAR also operate for nav updates or is it only for terminal homing>?.Dsmac is not a big deal as we can get it from the Israelis at a cost. Why dont we have an aggressor squadron like the in the US made up of 2nd hand F-16s !! Uncle sam would love to help!
We have 3d maps up to 2000 km from the border of India . the maps available of China and Pakistan are a far higrr quality than those of our own territory . In this case in the very near future we will see long range cruise missiles with optical sensors. Karn
to anonymous@ 8.06 can you substantiate that , i would def tend to believe you as i have heard of a software being developed for 3d mapping .This should be good enough for briefing pilots for fly thru videos with actual terrain of a hostile country.
I am sorry I can't give articles and the like but I was speaking to a senior army officer ( I don't want to reveal his rank) that he was incharge of this effort. He was speaking of the difficulty due to a lack of resources (People for the project) more than anything else .I pressed him on what these detailed maps would be used for (surely long range missiles) . The only thing he said on that was that it is for the airforce that they need a detailed view in that depth ..1500+ kms(strange since he is in the army). Karn
1)When will the S-70b, AH-64,CH-47F, A330 MRTT, A-PHALCON AWACS (follow on) and M777 ULH deals be signed??
2) Addtiaonlly you are convinced the MCIWS will be adopted be the Indian military and CAPFs? I would love for this to be true but how sure can you be on this and if so when will the first units start entering service?
3)Can you elaborate on how Modi's foreign policy based on geo-economics will be the envy of Pakistan and respected by China?
4) what is the IAF going to do about the VVIP helo requirement it still has because of the whole AW-101 fiasco, AFAIK the current Mi-8/17s used for this role will be out of service by 2015-7 because they are so old. They need something and quick, and they can't just take from the MI-17V5 orders that hav been placed as these are for military roles and giving them of VVIP duties would be a joke, what will they do?
5) the C-130J was apparently due to turbulence caused by the wake of the lead c-130j,this is likely pilot error. Is this due to the IAF's relative lack of experience operating such birds? They have simulates and such, will they be making strides forward in training to make sure this doesn't happen again?
to karn yes the problem is not people for such software but people management. If you expect the army to stick to its standards as well as trying to get the best brains in the country that will not work. This is for the very reason that software nerds have a great feeling of individuality, i am talking of the hard core hackers who live and breathe computers. The only way out is outsource it. Idiot Anthony recently stated that india should have a EW capability, i think he meant on the lines of china.What the F...K was he doing all these 10 years? Recently they tried hacking into the german top secret defense sites. We should follow china where a university run by the military solely dedicated to IT warfare i s being run just for this and thousands of the best brains are sitting and hacking into the world!! We can easily do that , but we are a nation led by donkeys trying to divide the country and rule.
Govt should HAND OVER one best IIT and IIM to DRDO/HAL/MoD.
And Govt should provide these guys the best facilities, resources, Teaching Faculty and salaries to them to get the best results.
Why we do not recruit French, German, Russian, British retired workers who worked in real time jobs in sophisticated companies as consultants, faculty into Indian Institutes? Govt should provide a free hand to the finance dept to give them high salaries..
And on the top of that, the Bull Shit Govt BABU culture should be thrown away...something like ISRO has done....
"According to sources, the Major received critical injuries after a militant rose from the debris of a destroyed house and opened indiscriminate fire on SOG men and Army."
Why has this happened and can technology be used to save such fatal error?
Thank you for the reply. I was not being negative wrt what is happening in IA (indiscipline, promotion cases in court). These incidents off course happen in all army's but what has been interesting is that, how often these happen in IA and how much coverage they get?
What these things indicate is a potential failure at an institutional level. Are the soldiers and seniors officers losing trust in IA as an institution that looks after them as equals? With some of the seniors officers joining the various political parties, is the IA becoming or has it already become a political institution?
If this has happened, do you think that this may actually increase the risk of conflict?
Sir, i was readin the book 'Hand bookNepal C of indias international Relations' by david scott,He concluded that Nepal,Bangladesh and Srilanka have escaped from indias influence into Chinas sphere.Will u please clarify his comments on military and Economic aspects......
@rad Calm down .. He (the officer) was simply commenting on the fact that he is expected to do the mapping with 40 ish guys while the americans who have done such mapping of afgan to pakistan have at their disposal hundreds of guys . Our work proceeds more slowly but it gets done . What you said about the mentality "software nerds " is extremely flawed . They will go where the money is and if the work is interesting and currently the money is with the armed forced they pay the best out of the vast majority of private companies. The technical entry pays even more. It's harder to get a technical entry into the navy than it is to get recruited by microsoft and still the best from colleges apply . We have very little to worry about the "service" sector . You should take some time and read about the insane amount of work being done and im not talking about the low grade software jobs . From automotive to Vlsi design there just so much work being done most of these sectors handily outdo China . There is a reason that it is 56% of our GDP.And don't worry too much about brain drain to the USA.. thanks to Obama there are hardly any jobs for Indians anymore (doctors are a different subject). But we lose a huge amount in foreign exchange by sending out students there to study because our universities are inadequate . It is an interesting case really why the service industry does well while our manufacturing is so pathetic. Services need very very little influence from the govt . Manufacturing on the other hand needs HUGE effort from the govt . From land , electricity generation , road infrastructure, ports and a whole lot more (read about the 1 trillion dollar infrastructure fund that has been set up ) . If we don't develop our manufacturing our country will stangnate and even the services sector will decline .. It is high time manufacturing takes enter stage .. the middle class professionals cannot keep dragging this country forward . We must create millions of blue collar jobs or we will go nowhere. Karn
These three Google Maps Screen shots (IOS)seem to show a jet very close to water. It is an optical illusion? However i can see the shadow of the plane on water. Its near Navi Mumbai. I tried to check on Google earth to get the co ordinates, however looks like Google earth hasn't updated the pics. Hence attaching screen shots. There is also an small ship (Barge) along side.
@Prasun da,how are you doing man??Been busy for studies and work,so could not post for quite some time.
By the way,I have question to ask to.
According to official stats,there are some 85 million registered firearms with the Pakistani civilians.No one knows what the actual figure might be it could be 150 million or 200 ranging from 9mm handguns,AK series rifles,GPMGs to DShK HMGs and even RPG models!!
So don't you think that during any future hostilities,Indian army will be in a serious trouble if the Pakistan government could funnel in even a percentage of these armed men??In the worst case scenario,for each and every Indian soldier,the pakis can field a group of over 150-200 armed militia men (given Indian Army could field 5-6 lakh soldiers)!!Heck that would be about 2 companies less a platoon for every individual Indian soldier!! Don't you think in that case,it would be very difficult for Indian Armed Forces to even hold its territory against those armed hordes,let alone take the battle to the Paki territory??
It has been historically proven that a nation with an armed population can defeat stronger invading armies like the Swedish people stopped the supposedly far superior Soviet Red Army cold in its track when they attacked Sweden just before the start of World War 2.
So what do you think Indian option would be in case of a future hostility with the Pakis??Should India first soften them up (read eliminate vast numbers of their able bodied civilian population) through means of a massive nation wide chemical or biological attack on Pakistani civilian masses and military installations just before the formal commencement of hostility and then stuck with everything in our arsenal??
as always would like to have your views wrt this query.
Sir the Ballistic missile defence program of India, can it be modified to provide cruise missile defence also ????? If not is there another program to take care of that....
Also in many places I have read that DRDO plans to modify the AAD interceptor missile to funtion as a SAM used against aircraft with a possible range greater than 150 km ...
Is this true if so can you please shed some light on it ....
Although you don't really deserve an explanation from me,but still I would still clarify points raised by you.
1.Of course they do you imbecile piece of shit.
2.Believe me,I've heard all these nonsense of Pakistan collapsing due to "chaos,crimes and associated activities".In reality,they are here to stay and they are going nowhere.It's only in the imagination of fucking wet dreamers like yourself you fucking moron.
3.When did I ever say that those armed militia men would be the only ones fighting IA??Don't put words in my mouth you bastard.Did you forget about the Pakistani Army??Do you know how much they outnumber and outclass Indian Army in terms of APCs and modern artillery guns??Do you know that from after independence till now they have been outnumbering us in those fields you moron?? And what government support??Do you think they lack ammunitions for their arms??Well I've got news for ya kiddo,their so called "Aman militia" has been fighting against TTP without any government support.How are they doing it then??Answer this you fucking moron.
4.It could very well happen in any future hostility regardless of who starts it.Remember what happened in Kashmir??When Indian Army launched the operations to evict the entrenched Paki bastards from mountain tops and ridgelines overlooking NH 1A,the terrorist activity in the valley suddenly increased to an unprecedented level.Why - because IA had to divert its forces and the CRPF and BSF chaps were found to be hopelessly outmatched by the Paki and Afghan mercenaries.Who can guarantee that a similar thing won't happen in future??Especially when now Paki awam has such huge numbers of firearms and ammunitions available to them??Only this time it might turn out to be far worse.
Oh and you think that Soviets didn't have an Air Force??If you wouldn't have been such an ignorant bastard,you would have known that the effects of air power is often over exaggerated to a ridiculously crazy level.It was proven beyond doubt that Air power alone can not substitute boots on the ground by US Army officials who served in Operation Deseret Storm and Operation Iraqi Freedom.But I am quite certain you wouldn't know because all of your "knowledge" is based on dumb internet articles where as I base my knowledge on books.Try to read some good books but you have to spend hard cash from your pocket for that....not everything good can be found free.
5.Oh and why it may not apply to Indo-Pak scenario,especially when the Paki civilians are far more well armed than the Swiss people during World War 2 and Red Army was far far larger than what Indian Army today is??Because you say so you fucking imbecile piece of crap??
7.And lastly I'm asking you directly,how can you be such an ignorant fool yet you dare to show the audacity of name-calling me.And if I remember correct,I didn't ask you.So who the fuck you think you are??
And show some back bone,comment under your name like a man.Anon - I guess your dad is also Anonymous to you....huh??
to karn I was infuriated that AKA now talks about IT warfare , when he could have done so long ago . My anger is why dont we have a IT warfare hub on a large scale like the chinese. It does not take much time to go ahead. We keep wimpering when we get hacked and do nothing ,and always on the defensive.when these buggers got together to pass a law to allow criminal into the legislature in record time why cant they do this. I still differ with you when it comes to nerds selecting the forces as a career .I am talking of those persons who are capable of bringing down highly secure defense sites , they usually work alone or with a few people.I personally knew a teenage girl in chennai who gets paid 25K for 2 hrs of ethical hacking a day.!Ultimately the word spread around and she was picked up by NOKIA with some fantastic salary in finland! What i am suggesting is we think out of the box .
Heh.. and where is nokia now .. Well I guess I got diverted from you point . I spoke about our industry in general not specifically about the armed forces for a large part of it .It would be bad if our best people are forced to go to the armed forces it is a sign of a decaying economy like we had during the hindu growth rate period . I tell people sometimes that Antony is not worse than Menon or Mulayam Singh in the Defense minister role but sometimes he really makes me reconsider it . It would be a trivial case to set up an IT cell for our armed forces considering our firms in Bangalore etc do network security for the likes of IBM and Dell to name a few .. People mostly have a wrong view of how "hacking" actually happens . In todays world the guys with the faster computer wins . Karn
Wow all you guys crying about how many guns pakistani civilians have . Considering there are 40 million unregistered firearms in India we should be more concerned about that
May be both the Civilian and Military decision makers of of our country actually know about it??May be....just may be that's why the PMO and Indian Army top brass was reluctant to the idea of armed retaliation against Pakistan in the wake of 2008 Mumbai massacre??
Yeah yeah,why am I not surprised??I've heard all these "Let me re asuure that even if ALL the 180 MILLION Pakis EACH wielding an AK 47 and an RPG Confront India ; they will STILL be ROUTED" nonsense.Do also mind telling an ignorant like me how you gonna achieve all these you just said....with your farts or you think our Army consists of Rambos and Sunny Deols?? Conventional wisdom says that one soldier,no matter how much well trained and equipped will eventually get overwhelmed by a large group of armed men no matter how much ill trained and undisciplined they are.
"Conventionally speaking Pakis have NO hope to withstand the MIGHT of Indian Army and IAF" seriously??You don't really believe it do you?? Do you know their number of 155mm arty pieces both towed and self-propelled??Do you know how many odd 203mm arty pieces they have in their inventory??And how many 155mm arty pieces IA can deploy?? Do you know that their 300mm A 100 MBRLs outrage the Smerch M by over 15 km??
Do you know that their Naiza DU FSAPDS rounds are widely believed to be better than presently used outdated BM 42 Mango rounds of IA??
And you think they have no hope in hell to withstand our might!!It's hilarious man!!You are still sleeping bud....wake up and smell the coffee,add a few biscuits if you deem necessary.
Of course everyone knows the approximate force level on Indian Army!!We know their formations and even where they are placed!!What else one would need to make an educated guess??One has to be naive to think otherwise.Likewise if you wanna go that road then it's ok with me.Your life,your opinion....it's a free country after all and I can't force you to change your opinion now can I?? And if you are talking about those reservists,then I've got news for you.Even in 1971,when IA had the time to train them properly,the officers were not satisfied with their performance in actual battle conditions!!
And where did I ever say that India would be fighting to grab their territory??What good it would give us anyway?? What I meant was if they could funnel in those armed militia men into the battlefield,those hordes could somewhat release the pressure off their army and create confusion if nothing more.In that case scenario,it would be quite difficult for the IA soldiers to hold their grounds.
And you say I'm ignorant!!You do reaalise that this is peacetime now and there are enough men on the ground to stand guard the LOC.That is one of the most importan reason they aren't (or rather can't) pouring in side IOK. You think the situation would be the same during a conflict??That's why I gave the example of Kargil!! Besides right now they are too much preoccupied with their TTP and BLA brethren.
I could go on and on about your ignorance and naivety.Your own knowledge wrt this matter seems to be questionable at best,yet you got the courage to show the audacity to tell me that I know anything about war!! Very well then,you are entitled to your opinions and I'm mine.Here by I rest my case.
Hello Anurag . Please stop reading Pakistan defense forums . The Pakistanis have roughly as much 155 systems as us . Their 203 systems are obsolete and very combersome for strategic mobility ,To compensate Our CAS hilariously overmatch theirs. The apparent performance of the "Nazia" round is "widely believed " to be superior to anything only by Pakistani fanboys.The A 100 reaches it's "reported range" only by using rockets with reduced explosive warheads . An armed militia is totally useless to Pakistan unless we decide to occupy them. Think hatke but not so hatke . Karn
To SUVO: It takes several weeks to validate the results of such firing trials. The final tally won’t be available till August 2014. Since the IA wants to standardize on 155mm/52-cal systems, the 2S19M1 MSTA-S doesn’t meet the reqmt.
To DEFENSE & AEROSPACE: 1) ATLAS Elektronik, Textron Systems, SaabTech, Kongsberg, & ECA of France. 2) The reqmt is only for flight conversion & therefore existing B.737-800 flight simulators used by commercial airline operators will suffice. The IN’s own P-8I flight simulator is a far more sophisticated system with additional mission management sensor & display replicators in the cockpit.
To RAD: CARTOSAT’s imagery is of the electro-optical type, which is fine for terrain visualization for land navigation for ground forces. For GIS-based terrain mapping for PGMs, SAR imagery is mandatory & nothing else works. Therefore, RISAT-1/2 satellites are used for such purposes, as is SAR imagery obtained from EL/M-2060P pods. GPS-based Terrain navigation for PGMs requires coordinates right up to the 7th decimal point, which isn’t available from any photo-imagery or SAR-equipped satellite. Even with IRNSS satellite constellation, one requires targets to be mapped with on-the-spot coordinates acquisition—something that can be done only by UAVs or SOF personnel on long-distance covert intel-gathering missions, like the ones conducted by USN’s SEALs & Marine Force Recon. About Nirbhay, the DG of DRDO was referring on the need to evolve a family of cruise missiles from one standard baseline design, instead of developing different types of cruise missiles. Israel can’t provide such technical know-hows since most of such know-hows are derived from US-origin systems architectures & hardware. Even DSMAC isn’t stealthy & PGMs using such techniques can easily be detected by ground-based IRST sensors.
To KARN: Certainly not up to depths of 2,000km, but only up to 80km & that too only for land navigation. For airborne precision-strikes, mapping capability is very limited due to the availability of only two satellites, RISAT-1 & RISAT-2. The PRC on the other hand operates six SAR-equipped satellites.
To ROHIT: 1) No. 2) That’s right. 3) Even if they do see them, what can one expect from them?
To SUVO: It takes several weeks to validate the results of such firing trials. The final tally won’t be available till August 2014. Since the IA wants to standardize on 155mm/52-cal systems, the 2S19M1 MSTA-S doesn’t meet the reqmt.
To DEFENSE & AEROSPACE: 1) ATLAS Elektronik, Textron Systems, SaabTech, Kongsberg, & ECA of France. 2) The reqmt is only for flight conversion & therefore existing B.737-800 flight simulators used by commercial airline operators will suffice. The IN’s own P-8I flight simulator is a far more sophisticated system with additional mission management sensor & display replicators in the cockpit.
To RAD: CARTOSAT’s imagery is of the electro-optical type, which is fine for terrain visualization for land navigation for ground forces. For GIS-based terrain mapping for PGMs, SAR imagery is mandatory & nothing else works. Therefore, RISAT-1/2 satellites are used for such purposes, as is SAR imagery obtained from EL/M-2060P pods. GPS-based Terrain navigation for PGMs requires coordinates right up to the 7th decimal point, which isn’t available from any photo-imagery or SAR-equipped satellite. Even with IRNSS satellite constellation, one requires targets to be mapped with on-the-spot coordinates acquisition—something that can be done only by UAVs or SOF personnel on long-distance covert intel-gathering missions, like the ones conducted by USN’s SEALs & Marine Force Recon. About Nirbhay, the DG of DRDO was referring on the need to evolve a family of cruise missiles from one standard baseline design, instead of developing different types of cruise missiles. Israel can’t provide such technical know-hows since most of such know-hows are derived from US-origin systems architectures & hardware. Even DSMAC isn’t stealthy & PGMs using such techniques can easily be detected by ground-based IRST sensors.
To KARN: Certainly not up to depths of 2,000km, but only up to 80km & that too only for land navigation. For airborne precision-strikes, mapping capability is very limited due to the availability of only two satellites, RISAT-1 & RISAT-2. The PRC on the other hand operates six SAR-equipped satellites.
To ROHIT: 1) No. 2) That’s right. 3) Even if they do see them, what can one expect from them?
To GOOGLER: 1) Not this year for sure. 2) Yes, definitely. 3) It won’t be the envy of Pakistan, since even Pakistan wants to intensify & greatly expand its trading links with India. 4) Hopefully the new govt-in-power will reverse AKA’s decision. 5) It was a clear-cut case of gross human negligence.
To MUTTU: That’s easy. Replace the existing Carl Gustavs used during such operations with hyperbaric LAWs of the type available from RAFAEL of Israel.
To RAW13: Of course it is a failure at the institutional-level, but not that of Army HQ. The failure is that of the MoD & its inability to articulate a universally applicable promotions policy, i.e. either stick to seniority without exceptions, or embrace the ‘deep selection’ system based on meritocracy.
To SUDIPTO: Absolute baloney. Typical mis-reading of the situation by an out-of-area Caucasian! On the contrary, both Bangladesh & Sri Lanka have to be complimented on the splendid & creative ways their foreign service bureaucrats have engaged their Indian counterparts in almost all spheres, especially in the areas of trade & commerce.
To ANURAG: Have been extremely busy for the past 2 weeks while digging up lots of archival materials relating to the 1962 & 1971 wars, since such data is required for a monologue I'm now drafting for a forthcoming symposium on the role played by aerial logistics during these two wars & future options for rotary-winged aviation in the Indian subcontinent in terms of vertical envelopment options aimed at accelerating the operational tempos of future limited wars.
Will answer all your outstanding queries in this very thread later today.
With pleasure my dear Kitty Kat.I can understand that you are an imbecile,hence unable to look for the details in the relevant sites.Ok here it is for your eyes only.
List of Pakistani 155mm Artillery guns:
1.Self-propelled : M 109A5 Paladin - 500+
2.Towed : A. M 59 - ~50 B. M 114 - 160+ C. M 198 - 160+ D. MKEK Panter L/52 - around 80 at present.Pakistan Army has planned to eventually induct total 200 systems.
In comparison,Indian Army has only ~350 or so operational Bofors FH 77B L/39 calibre towed guns in its inventory as of now.
@THANX Prasun da,my question can wait.You please carry on with your research for your upcoming monologue.I'll be eagerly waiting for it to come out.All the best.
Oh Anurag Do use some common sense . The 203 mm artillery is pre WW2 anti fortification artillery . That cannot be hauled by a standard army truck .Hence it lacks "strategic mobility" ,learn something you ignorant moron . The 203 mm cannon is surpassed in effectiveness by the 155 mm . The 105 mm and 122 mm are regimental artillery while the 155 is divisional artillery . Even after we finish producing the entire run of 155mm we will continue to have similar guns in service . Try to comprehend the role of different guns before you start waving around ignorance with pride . The 130 mm in service with our army has a longer range than the 155/39 the pakistanis have at the cost of a lower rate of fire.It forms the backbone of our divisional artillery . Infact the 130 mm handily out performed the 155/39s of the americans in vietnam.
This is the 1st time a lack of strategic depth has been described to me as an advantage . You have revolutionized military philosophy "general"!
Our airforce will not be able to mount effective CAS in the 1st few hours, while the magical pakistan artillery teleports around destroying everything we send at them in the mean time ..Sure .. Naiza round ... Where would be without pedantics and forum discussions based on photographs that do not scale .
Oh no sir i am an unashamed Soviet/Russia equipment fanboy and I firmly believe that the Arjun , LCA ,Insas as they exist now are the worst pieces of equipment in the world today (by Era). But even then the sad attempts by Pakistan to try and claim that they are superior and have indigenous weapons development fills me with schdenfrude .
The difference between an army and a militia/insurgency is broadly that , an army has the support of heavy weaponary and airpower as well as a logistics and the most important distinction is that an army has mobility (well this ties in with the logistics part). A militia can hold an area an that has to be defensible (City, mountains forest etc )Even then cannot hold out against heavy weapons nor can they move a large distance nor can they keep up a fight for long due to not having a consistent supply chain . Hence the only good thing that they are good for is harassment of occupying forces. In pakistans context the only place a militia can be a problem is in the cities as we have no need to go fight in the eastern mountains as almost all of their industry and infrastructure is in the plains in the west near our border.
I know you were responding to someone else but Pakistan has about 300 155 mm (many of them are older l/24s with an abysmal range of 14kms only the 30 odd Panters are l/52s ) towed systems and roughly 100 paladins (the number of SH 1s is not clear). While we have 200 155/39s remaining . Karn
You Thanked the anon for nothing because all of his so called counter arguments are just a bunch of half-truths and false claims.If you wanna trust that dog,then you are welcome but beware if truth is what you seek.
I gave you the names of those models used by Pak army kittu,so it shouldn't be a big problem for you to dig those infos out from relevant sites.Give it a try for yourself,if you are unable to find out then you can always ask me here in Trishul-Trident.
But in brief,almost their entire arty arm is of US origin except the MKEK Panters which are of Turkish origin.And spare support isn't a big problem since their POF is producing them in-house.
I can't seem to decide where I should laugh or feel pity at your ignorance!!Your entire comment is full of nonsensical bullshit and you call me an ignorant....pretty ironic huh??
So what if the M 115s are from '40s??When did I claim otherwise you retard??And even then they've got nearly the same range as our IFGs with at least four times the destructive capability.And they still out range our D 30s anyway.
"That cannot be hauled by a standard army truck .Hence it lacks "strategic mobility" ,learn something you ignorant moron " - LMFAOROFL!!Biggest piece of crap of this century.
"The 203 mm cannon is surpassed in effectiveness by the 155 mm" . - Of course.When did claim otherwise....sorry,I can't remember.
" The 105 mm and 122 mm are regimental artillery while the 155 is divisional artillery" - another piece of premium quality bullshit.Do you even know that there is NO operational formation in infantry or arty arms of Indian Army as regiments??Indian Army is not like the PLA where there is an operational formation called Regiment (equivalent to a division of Indian Army). Indian Army is structured like this - section....platoon....company....battalion....brigade....division....corps....zone.Where do you see regiment in the hierarchy here??And if there is no regiment,then how the question even arises about regimental artillery??At least read up a few things before opening your shithole....would save you some embarrassment.
And the word you intended to use would be battalion/brigade level artillery.And even then it's not completely right since there is no fixed rule of what kind of artillery assets will be provided to which particular formations,rather the availability of assets and the nature of support deemed necessary plays the deciding role of which formation would be provided with what.
"Even after we finish producing the entire run of 155mm we will continue to have similar guns in service . Try to comprehend the role of different guns before you start waving around ignorance with pride" -
Oh yeah??!!May be that's why Indian Army is looking for upgrading its entire M 46 inventory to 155mm L45 standard and replacement for its D 30s (the IFGs will be retained for mountain regions)??!!I think I should tell my neighbour when he comes home from his duty that they are a bunch of fools who don't have an iota of what to do and learn a thing or two from you then??I'm just amazed by your level of stupidity and ignorance....Really!!
" The 130 mm in service with our army has a longer range than the 155/39 the pakistanis have at the cost of a lower rate of fire"-
No longer the case boyo,at least not in our case it's not.Apparently you are not a very current affairs guy.So let me give you a little dose of reality.The maximum range of M 46 is ~26 km with unassisted full bore shots which was indeed greater than 155mm L 39 guns.But due to emergence of better propelant charges and metalurgy of shells,the L39 guns can now engage targets to near the same distance with unassisted rounds with ~40% more destructive capability. And there is more to it.There are multiple types of 155mm extended range base bleed rounds currently under production by both India and Pakistan which enables the L39 guns with standard 23 litre volume chambers to engage targets beyond 30 km.But there are no 130mm base bleed ammo is available to Indian Army and hence the M 46 guns no longer enjoy the advantage of longer range. Nothing remain unchanged for too long.It's high time you wake up and smell the coffee.
"Oh no sir i am an unashamed Soviet/Russia equipment fanboy and I firmly believe that the Arjun , LCA ,Insas as they exist now are the worst pieces of equipment in the world today (by Era)."-
Then you are proving again that you are nothing more than an ignorant retard with intellect level less developed than a donkey. As it stands now,INSAS 1B1 trench is comparable to other assault rifles chambered for 5.56X45mm NATO ammunitions in terms of accuracy and effective range at a fraction of their cost. And it's better than rifles chambered for Soviet M43 and 5.45X39mm ammunition in almost every aspects including accuracy,range (due to better sights and the flatter trajectory of 5.56X45mm NATO ammunitions).
And Arjun is one of the better tank designs.In many aspects,it's better than other eastern block tanks including sighting devices,FCS,main gun,armor,suspension,ammo storage etc.Only thing lacking is a modern FSAPDS round since the current round design is mid '80s vintage and hasn't been replaced ever since. But whom am I talking too??
"But even then the sad attempts by Pakistan to try and claim that they are superior and have indigenous weapons development fills me with schdenfrude ".-
Well I'm not a Pakistani,so can't speak anything on this on their behalf.
" (many of them are older l/24s with an abysmal range of 14kms" -
Only the ~120 odd M 114s are of L24 calibre and they are intended to be phased out by new Panters.
"only the 30 odd Panters are l/52s ) towed systems" - You really are an ignorant idiot aren't you??Turky sent 12 MKEK Panters in 2011.Till now POF has produced about ~64 systems....so the total number should stand at ~80,with PA plans to eventually induct upwards 200 Panters.Get that into your head fool.
"roughly 100 paladins"- Did you pull this gem out of your arse??!!Oh wait,I know....you got it from wikipedia.What else could be expected from a moron like you?? Listen you dumb retard,according to Janes,Pakistan Army presently has some 500+ M 109A5 Paladin tracked SPH...period and it's a much more reliable than your dumb wikipedia.
"the number of SH 1s is not clear"- Only to a retard like you whose only knowledge is from wikipedia.For others it's crystal clear and the answer is zero.Pakistan Army do not have a single SH 1 in their inventory.They have settled for the MKEK Panter.How much an ignorant are you man??!!
About your "lengthy,insightful and enlightening" paragraph on the militia (like I didn't know) - listen boy,I've already explained it in detail multiple times and I've got no energy left to do it all over again.I've been doing this over and over hoping to get a different outcome but I'm not insane.So can't do it anymore.
And this is the last time I'm replying to your post.You are simply not fit to run a debate with as don't even have the bare minimum of knowledge and ability to comprehend simple english necessary. It's been enough already.Just grow up now because this world has got no place for simpletons like you.
Hi Anurag and Karn The summer is very hot, cool of guys ,I have taken Prasuns suggestion seriously and stuck to king fisher extra strong beer !!hic hic what say prasun
Prasun do post some more pics and literature, especially on the new ABM test vehicle, kudos for correctly reporting the dual seeker in the missile .I am thrilled by the tech that has gone into it , especially the sensor data fusion etc . The miss distance can always be reduced by further tests, Are we seeing a nascent anti sat tech taking place ???? We children tend to fight in the absence of parents so do keep us busy with more exciting posts
nice one anurag... these fanboys have not the slightest bit of idea what they are talking.these are what i like to call wikipedia experts.these are the guys who watch history channel documentaries and claim that f-35 is the best fighter for india and that "future of aviation is UCAVs". @karn dude you need to visit some sites other than wikipedia. plz do search up the differnce between a howitzer and a field gun. do some research and u will find no place to hide ur face for all the bullshit u have written
inflexible conventional mindset of the army is one of the prime reasons for its woes.the army firmly bound by traditions ,which i would say are better described as notions and that is the primary cause for the ensueing stagnation.
the air force and navy have displayed tremondous flexibility and have leapfrogged the army moving into 21st century whereas our army,the second largest in the world is still languishing in mid 20th century. all this for a few old armchair generals who live in a fairytale world of theirs with all the world's luxuries and refuse come to terms with the fact that times have changed.
kindly look up this link:- http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Galleries/Wars/Kargil/0247.jpg.html the caption on the link is:- "A temporarily-created air defence post, with a Jawan holding a 7.62mm medium machine gun, while another watches through his binoculars for Pakistani air intrusions."
so in 1999 all the army had for air defence of its artillery assets were bren guns mounted AA tripods. and this is still continueing.i recently saw the same arrangement in a nat geo documentary on artillery.
i beleive this aptly demonstates the dated tactics that the army follows.
also i read somewhere,probably in defenceforumindia ,that insas bulpup was rejected -(here comes the big one) "because it won't look good during parades"
and today we pay israel millions for the tavors.<>
You are bad at debating . An insult with no answer is counter argument . You are the one that listed the 203 as a threat to us .I said it is an anti fortification arty piece designed for use against fortifications like the seigfried line . Might I suggest reading comprehension ? Please demonstrate how a 203 can be towed by a 6X6 .. I won't hold my breath.
Yes I made a mistake .. I described it in regiments as with Soviet army formations . Please tell me more about the how artillery assets are handled .Division level arty is never used without explicit authorization of division HQ. Wow I gave a simply example of vietnam and you went full shitpoast . I was merely trying to explaining to you what we use instead of 155 mm as our division arty when you sperged out about our 105 mm and 122 mm guns . We will use these guns far into the future rest assured . And we tried to upgrade the 130 mm because our MOD cant get it's head out of it's own ass . And I care little about who your neighbor is keep that to your self .
Ah yes general .. I await your thesis on how the lack of depth of pakistan where even their reserve formations are within striking distance and their aircraft have 3 minutes to scramble in time to intercept any aircraft that crosses their border is an advantage . If all you have is shitposting do shut up .
You asked the question on how our airforce can eliminate the pak arty within hours o hostilitiees being declared . I asked you in turn which pak arty can effectively engage our fores within the 1st few hours of hostilities while remaining safe from our air assets . Surely teleportation is the answer . Get back to me when you manage to get your head out of your own ass hole . The folks on tanknet know a lot but the assumption they work on is that besides the length of the sabot everything remains equal. This is the assmtion they wrk on when comparing between nato and soviet rounds .The naiza has a heavier sabot that they assume doesn't lose muzzle velocity and velocity over the time of flight n Indian. I am well aware of what KMDB is you pleb . It's sad . the only thing keeping their head aboe water is engine production engineering support . You call me a India fanboy and quote Kunal as reliable source . the guy that fanboys every bit of equipment put out by drdo and cries about corrupt senior officers who chose foreign equipment and evil russians bent on providing us equipment to tide over the shortages caused by the sad state of our defense industry . Ah yes the mighty Insas1b1 that required almost a decade of refining from the orignal shit version to get to a barely acceptable level. And has the performance out of a 18 inch barrel that other designs achieve with 16 inch barrels and is almost half a kg heavier than almost every AR platform in service. .It can I said by era improve reading comprehension . THe only thing the Arjun has over the t 90MS is the hydropneumatic suspension . Wow considering the arjun holds its ammo right at the front next to the driver where it is most likely to be hit is "superior " ammo storage according to you.. . bravo . But whom am I talking to ... Well considering the 500 paladin number comes straight out of wiki and janes claims that sh 1 are used by pakistan . Please wiki warrior throw more shit .
Re militia :I do my part to inform morons like you . But stay ignorant my friend ...
PLZ DO READ WHY THE INDIAN ARMY IS UPGUNNING ALL M-46 TO 155 MM CALIBRE.
also , have you ever wondered why there are so many pics of the humble 105 LFG in kargil and not of the mighty M-46 .
the reason is simple...true field guns like the m-46 are made to fire at flatter trajectories with higher velocities .. so they were only of limited use in kargil..and so will be the case inany future wars with china.they are however useful in the thar and that is the only reason they still exist..the army however thought a piece of equipment that big and heavy (7.7 tons) must have some more punch to it..and hence the upgradation effort,which was however stopped following a barrel explosion.
as for your desire to see a 6x6 towing a 203mm , plz refer to the link below:-
@Karn, "Ah yes the mighty Insas1b1 that required almost a decade of refining from the orignal shit version to get to a barely acceptable level. "
Don't you ever get exhausted after spreading so much nonsense??
" And has the performance out of a 18 inch barrel that other designs achieve with 16 inch barrels" - You have got anything to show for your claims dog??By the way,you can be again proven spreading false propaganda through your arse without the slightest of knowledge on this. For example,INSAS 1B1 has got a 18.4" barrel to be precise.And its initial muzzle velocity is ~920 meter/sec for M 193 rounds and ~900+ meter/sec for the heavier SS 109/M 885 ammunitions.Try achieving such velocity from a 16" barrel you bastard.So again you lied you retard.
And INSAS is better than those rifles chambered for Soviet M 43 (like the AKM) and M74 rounds(AK 74) due to a variety of reasons.Like AKs are fitted with open sights which are craps..........literally. There are better 5.56mm rounds available all over the world like the new OFB 5.56X45 l rounds with a 66 grain hardened steel penetrator,American Mk 318SOST and Mk 262 77 grain bullets.No such rounds available for AK rifles.
INSAS has a much flatter trajectory and higher muzzle velocity due to its longer barrel than AKs which results into increased range and armor perforation capabilities.
These are only few.
"And we tried to upgrade the 130 mm because our MOD cant get it's head out of it's own ass".
No you moron.They wanted to upgun the M 46 to Metamorphosis L45 standard due to a variety of technical and operational reasons.Like
1.Standardisation of the artillery arm to 155mm for reduced logistical footprint.
2.155mm L45 howitzers have a far greater range than a M 46 field gun.
3.Availability of a variety of long range 155mm shells from both domestic and foreign sources.
4.Having been designed for flat trajectory,a field gun like M 46 has very limited effectiveness in mountainous terrains since due to their flatter trajectory,they can't engage targets behind a ridge.
But of course you wouldn't know these stuffs since you are a fucking retard.
I don't know why I keep replying to your nonsense??But now finally I've had enough of your BULLCRAP.As far as I'm concerned,this conversation is over.But if you insist on keep beating around the bush then you are welcome.Do it yourself.
@Saurav, Thanks for your support and your informative posts.I'm looking forward to have a conversation with you in near future.
But one advice - don't waste your time on dogs like this Karn. I've wasted my time on him and trust me,he's not worth it.
@Karn, Listen you dog,it's you who should grow up and keep quite,not Saurav.He always substantiate his claims with proper evidence.....you on the other hand can only make tall claims,spread false propaganda and lie through your arse!!Heck you don't even know the proper nomenclatures!!And you tell others to keep quite!!You really are some piece of work....gotta give you that!!
Prasun, what exactly is the status of the Super Su MKI deal? When will it begin and in what numbers??? You had made a blod entry in 2011 stating from "air supremacy to air dominance" that I have just been reading but none of this seems to have happened to date....
Anurag, check your very language, googling some information and taking part in some retard only forums does not give somebody eternal right to abuse your fellow debater.
+&+LRCM.jpg)
256 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 256 of 256Hi Prasun
I was just thinking about the cartosat series of sats which have a resolution of 1 meter and below. That should be enough for targeting purposes for the cruise missiles. I believe the imagery are world class. I do also believe that we have totally digitized the terrain of pakistan, so would have china of india. This would have been given to its all weather puppy dog for targeting. This would be in the light if the Chinese missile given to pak and named as the babur.
Avinash chander recently said that the Nirbhay cruise missile program is an example of how not to run a cruise missile program. What was he mentioning about?.
Its nearly 11 years since the project was started and still nothing. we should have collaborated with Israel and finished it long ago as both are not signatories of the MCTR. This could be on the lines of china getting tech from ukraine.
Have we got our own terrain foll avionics that was supposed to be made for the upgraded jaguars?
dont you think dsmac is the way forward as it is stealthier?. does the SAR also operate for nav updates or is it only for terminal homing>?.Dsmac is not a big deal as we can get it from the Israelis at a cost.
Why dont we have an aggressor squadron like the in the US made up of 2nd hand F-16s !! Uncle sam would love to help!
We have 3d maps up to 2000 km from the border of India . the maps available of China and Pakistan are a far higrr quality than those of our own territory . In this case in the very near future we will see long range cruise missiles with optical sensors. Karn
to anonymous@ 8.06
can you substantiate that , i would def tend to believe you as i have heard of a software being developed for 3d mapping .This should be good enough for briefing pilots for fly thru videos with actual terrain of a hostile country.
I am sorry I can't give articles and the like but I was speaking to a senior army officer ( I don't want to reveal his rank) that he was incharge of this effort. He was speaking of the difficulty due to a lack of resources (People for the project) more than anything else .I pressed him on what these detailed maps would be used for (surely long range missiles) . The only thing he said on that was that it is for the airforce that they need a detailed view in that depth ..1500+ kms(strange since he is in the army).
Karn
Hi Prasun Da:
1) Do we have thermobaric bombs?
2) I went thorough all the video on UFO and american tech.I all this comes true then the world is just a slave of MJ 12,CIA and the New Order
3) I believe DRDO & RAW needs to be shown these video and should be kicked hard in their ass
Dear Prasun da:
What would you say about this documentary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOx3Zdl4738
dear Prasun Da and rest of viewers do have a look at the following blog and website.
1 sangatsamtavad.blogspot.com
2 samtavad.org ( Site is down but will be up by tommorow ) . The literature on the website will have no parallels.
one of book is https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/10263530-the-radiant-sameness
Prasun,
1)When will the S-70b, AH-64,CH-47F, A330 MRTT, A-PHALCON AWACS (follow on) and M777 ULH deals be signed??
2) Addtiaonlly you are convinced the MCIWS will be adopted be the Indian military and CAPFs? I would love for this to be true but how sure can you be on this and if so when will the first units start entering service?
3)Can you elaborate on how Modi's foreign policy based on geo-economics will be the envy of Pakistan and respected by China?
4) what is the IAF going to do about the VVIP helo requirement it still has because of the whole AW-101 fiasco, AFAIK the current Mi-8/17s used for this role will be out of service by 2015-7 because they are so old. They need something and quick, and they can't just take from the MI-17V5 orders that hav been placed as these are for military roles and giving them of VVIP duties would be a joke, what will they do?
5) the C-130J was apparently due to turbulence caused by the wake of the lead c-130j,this is likely pilot error. Is this due to the IAF's relative lack of experience operating such birds? They have simulates and such, will they be making strides forward in training to make sure this doesn't happen again?
to karn
yes the problem is not people for such software but people management. If you expect the army to stick to its standards as well as trying to get the best brains in the country that will not work. This is for the very reason that software nerds have a great feeling of individuality, i am talking of the hard core hackers who live and breathe computers.
The only way out is outsource it.
Idiot Anthony recently stated that india should have a EW capability, i think he meant on the lines of china.What the F...K was he doing all these 10 years? Recently they tried hacking into the german top secret defense sites.
We should follow china where a university run by the military solely dedicated to IT warfare i s being run just for this and thousands of the best brains are sitting and hacking into the world!! We can easily do that , but we are a nation led by donkeys trying to divide the country and rule.
Believe me
Govt should HAND OVER one best IIT and IIM to DRDO/HAL/MoD.
And Govt should provide these guys the best facilities, resources, Teaching Faculty and salaries to them to get the best results.
Why we do not recruit French, German, Russian, British retired workers who worked in real time jobs in sophisticated companies as consultants, faculty into Indian Institutes? Govt should provide a free hand to the finance dept to give them high salaries..
And on the top of that, the Bull Shit Govt BABU culture should be thrown away...something like ISRO has done....
Dear Sir,
http://www.greaterkashmir.com/news/2014/Apr/26/army-major-killed-in-shopian-encounter-15.asp
"According to sources, the Major received critical injuries after a militant rose from the debris of a destroyed house and opened indiscriminate fire on SOG men and Army."
Why has this happened and can technology be used to save such fatal error?
-muttu
Prasun,
Thank you for the reply.
I was not being negative wrt what is happening in IA (indiscipline, promotion cases in court). These incidents off course happen in all army's but what has been interesting is that, how often these happen in IA and how much coverage they get?
What these things indicate is a potential failure at an institutional level. Are the soldiers and seniors officers losing trust in IA as an institution that looks after them as equals? With some of the seniors officers joining the various political parties, is the IA becoming or has it already become a political institution?
If this has happened, do you think that this may actually increase the risk of conflict?
http://basantaerospace.com/activities.php
seems predator drone parts are manufactured..
reg
rajdeep
@raw13
another reason Gilgit will join India: Send this to the local papers there:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/india-election-2014-welcome-to-bhavnagar-where-muslims-are-free-to-live--as-long-as-they-change-their-name-9287186.html
Sir, i was readin the book 'Hand bookNepal C of indias international Relations' by david scott,He concluded that Nepal,Bangladesh and Srilanka have escaped from indias influence into Chinas sphere.Will u please clarify his comments on military and Economic aspects......
@rad
Calm down .. He (the officer) was simply commenting on the fact that he is expected to do the mapping with 40 ish guys while the americans who have done such mapping of afgan to pakistan have at their disposal hundreds of guys . Our work proceeds more slowly but it gets done .
What you said about the mentality "software nerds " is extremely flawed . They will go where the money is and if the work is interesting and currently the money is with the armed forced they pay the best out of the vast majority of private companies. The technical entry pays even more. It's harder to get a technical entry into the navy than it is to get recruited by microsoft and still the best from colleges apply . We have very little to worry about the "service" sector . You should take some time and read about the insane amount of work being done and im not talking about the low grade software jobs . From automotive to Vlsi design there just so much work being done most of these sectors handily outdo China . There is a reason that it is 56% of our GDP.And don't worry too much about brain drain to the USA.. thanks to Obama there are hardly any jobs for Indians anymore (doctors are a different subject). But we lose a huge amount in foreign exchange by sending out students there to study because our universities are inadequate .
It is an interesting case really why the service industry does well while our manufacturing is so pathetic. Services need very very little influence from the govt . Manufacturing on the other hand needs HUGE effort from the govt . From land , electricity generation , road infrastructure, ports and a whole lot more (read about the 1 trillion dollar infrastructure fund that has been set up ) . If we don't develop our manufacturing our country will stangnate and even the services sector will decline .. It is high time manufacturing takes enter stage .. the middle class professionals cannot keep dragging this country forward . We must create millions of blue collar jobs or we will go nowhere.
Karn
Wow I typed all that out with a lot of back editing .. It sounds very disjointed now .. Sorry guys ..
Karn
Prasun,
Probably OT.
These three Google Maps Screen shots (IOS)seem to show a jet very close to water. It is an optical illusion? However i can see the shadow of the plane on water.
Its near Navi Mumbai. I tried to check on Google earth to get the co ordinates, however looks like Google earth hasn't updated the pics. Hence attaching screen shots.
There is also an small ship (Barge) along side.
What do you think it is?
Atul
https://www.flickr.com/photos/95988107@N07/14028597505/in/photostream/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/95988107@N07/14028598955/in/photostream/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/95988107@N07/14028597505/in/photostream/
@Prasun da,how are you doing man??Been busy for studies and work,so could not post for quite some time.
By the way,I have question to ask to.
According to official stats,there are some 85 million registered firearms with the Pakistani civilians.No one knows what the actual figure might be it could be 150 million or 200 ranging from 9mm handguns,AK series rifles,GPMGs to DShK HMGs and even RPG models!!
So don't you think that during any future hostilities,Indian army will be in a serious trouble if the Pakistan government could funnel in even a percentage of these armed men??In the worst case scenario,for each and every Indian soldier,the pakis can field a group of over 150-200 armed militia men (given Indian Army could field 5-6 lakh soldiers)!!Heck that would be about 2 companies less a platoon for every individual Indian soldier!!
Don't you think in that case,it would be very difficult for Indian Armed Forces to even hold its territory against those armed hordes,let alone take the battle to the Paki territory??
It has been historically proven that a nation with an armed population can defeat stronger invading armies like the Swedish people stopped the supposedly far superior Soviet Red Army cold in its track when they attacked Sweden just before the start of World War 2.
So what do you think Indian option would be in case of a future hostility with the Pakis??Should India first soften them up (read eliminate vast numbers of their able bodied civilian population) through means of a massive nation wide chemical or biological attack on Pakistani civilian masses and military installations just before the formal commencement of hostility and then stuck with everything in our arsenal??
as always would like to have your views wrt this query.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/95988107@N07/14048618483/in/photostream/
This is the third link
Sir the Ballistic missile defence program of India, can it be modified to provide cruise missile defence also ????? If not is there another program to take care of that....
Also in many places I have read that DRDO plans to modify the AAD interceptor missile to funtion as a SAM used against aircraft with a possible range greater than 150 km ...
Is this true if so can you please shed some light on it ....
With respect
Shukant
Good News:
1. Akash Successfully Test Fired.
2. New interceptor missile Tests are success.
Indian govt/ indian railways should invest in Alstom.
@Anon 7:14 PM,
Although you don't really deserve an explanation from me,but still I would still clarify points raised by you.
1.Of course they do you imbecile piece of shit.
2.Believe me,I've heard all these nonsense of Pakistan collapsing due to "chaos,crimes and associated activities".In reality,they are here to stay and they are going nowhere.It's only in the imagination of fucking wet dreamers like yourself you fucking moron.
3.When did I ever say that those armed militia men would be the only ones fighting IA??Don't put words in my mouth you bastard.Did you forget about the Pakistani Army??Do you know how much they outnumber and outclass Indian Army in terms of APCs and modern artillery guns??Do you know that from after independence till now they have been outnumbering us in those fields you moron??
And what government support??Do you think they lack ammunitions for their arms??Well I've got news for ya kiddo,their so called "Aman militia" has been fighting against TTP without any government support.How are they doing it then??Answer this you fucking moron.
4.It could very well happen in any future hostility regardless of who starts it.Remember what happened in Kashmir??When Indian Army launched the operations to evict the entrenched Paki bastards from mountain tops and ridgelines overlooking NH 1A,the terrorist activity in the valley suddenly increased to an unprecedented level.Why - because IA had to divert its forces and the CRPF and BSF chaps were found to be hopelessly outmatched by the Paki and Afghan mercenaries.Who can guarantee that a similar thing won't happen in future??Especially when now Paki awam has such huge numbers of firearms and ammunitions available to them??Only this time it might turn out to be far worse.
Oh and you think that Soviets didn't have an Air Force??If you wouldn't have been such an ignorant bastard,you would have known that the effects of air power is often over exaggerated to a ridiculously crazy level.It was proven beyond doubt that Air power alone can not substitute boots on the ground by US Army officials who served in Operation Deseret Storm and Operation Iraqi Freedom.But I am quite certain you wouldn't know because all of your "knowledge" is based on dumb internet articles where as I base my knowledge on books.Try to read some good books but you have to spend hard cash from your pocket for that....not everything good can be found free.
5.Oh and why it may not apply to Indo-Pak scenario,especially when the Paki civilians are far more well armed than the Swiss people during World War 2 and Red Army was far far larger than what Indian Army today is??Because you say so you fucking imbecile piece of crap??
7.And lastly I'm asking you directly,how can you be such an ignorant fool yet you dare to show the audacity of name-calling me.And if I remember correct,I didn't ask you.So who the fuck you think you are??
And show some back bone,comment under your name like a man.Anon - I guess your dad is also Anonymous to you....huh??
to karn
I was infuriated that AKA now talks about IT warfare , when he could have done so long ago . My anger is why dont we have a IT warfare hub on a large scale like the chinese. It does not take much time to go ahead. We keep wimpering when we get hacked and do nothing ,and always on the defensive.when these buggers got together to pass a law to allow criminal into the legislature in record time why cant they do this.
I still differ with you when it comes to nerds selecting the forces as a career .I am talking of those persons who are capable of bringing down highly secure defense sites , they usually work alone or with a few people.I personally knew a teenage girl in chennai who gets paid 25K for 2 hrs of ethical hacking a day.!Ultimately the word spread around and she was picked up by NOKIA with some fantastic salary in finland! What i am suggesting is we think out of the box .
oops that was me
RAD
Heh.. and where is nokia now ..
Well I guess I got diverted from you point . I spoke about our industry in general not specifically about the armed forces for a large part of it .It would be bad if our best people are forced to go to the armed forces it is a sign of a decaying economy like we had during the hindu growth rate period .
I tell people sometimes that Antony is not worse than Menon or Mulayam Singh in the Defense minister role but sometimes he really makes me reconsider it . It would be a trivial case to set up an IT cell for our armed forces considering our firms in Bangalore etc do network security for the likes of IBM and Dell to name a few .. People mostly have a wrong view of how "hacking" actually happens . In todays world the guys with the faster computer wins .
Karn
Wow all you guys crying about how many guns pakistani civilians have .
Considering there are 40 million unregistered firearms in India we should be more concerned about that
@Vikram,thanks for your comment.I appreciate it.
But let me ask you something??
May be both the Civilian and Military decision makers of of our country actually know about it??May be....just may be that's why the PMO and Indian Army top brass was reluctant to the idea of armed retaliation against Pakistan in the wake of 2008 Mumbai massacre??
Yeah yeah,why am I not surprised??I've heard all these
"Let me re asuure that
even if ALL the 180 MILLION Pakis
EACH wielding an AK 47 and an RPG
Confront India ; they will STILL
be ROUTED" nonsense.Do also mind telling an ignorant like me how you gonna achieve all these you just said....with your farts or you think our Army consists of Rambos and Sunny Deols??
Conventional wisdom says that one soldier,no matter how much well trained and equipped will eventually get overwhelmed by a large group of armed men no matter how much ill trained and undisciplined they are.
"Conventionally speaking Pakis have
NO hope to withstand the MIGHT of
Indian Army and IAF" seriously??You don't really believe it do you??
Do you know their number of 155mm arty pieces both towed and self-propelled??Do you know how many odd 203mm arty pieces they have in their inventory??And how many 155mm arty pieces IA can deploy??
Do you know that their 300mm A 100 MBRLs outrage the Smerch M by over 15 km??
Do you know that their Naiza DU FSAPDS rounds are widely believed to be better than presently used outdated BM 42 Mango rounds of IA??
And you think they have no hope in hell to withstand our might!!It's hilarious man!!You are still sleeping bud....wake up and smell the coffee,add a few biscuits if you deem necessary.
Of course everyone knows the approximate force level on Indian Army!!We know their formations and even where they are placed!!What else one would need to make an educated guess??One has to be naive to think otherwise.Likewise if you wanna go that road then it's ok with me.Your life,your opinion....it's a free country after all and I can't force you to change your opinion now can I??
And if you are talking about those reservists,then I've got news for you.Even in 1971,when IA had the time to train them properly,the officers were not satisfied with their performance in actual battle conditions!!
And where did I ever say that India would be fighting to grab their territory??What good it would give us anyway??
What I meant was if they could funnel in those armed militia men into the battlefield,those hordes could somewhat release the pressure off their army and create confusion if nothing more.In that case scenario,it would be quite difficult for the IA soldiers to hold their grounds.
And you say I'm ignorant!!You do reaalise that this is peacetime now and there are enough men on the ground to stand guard the LOC.That is one of the most importan reason they aren't (or rather can't) pouring in side IOK.
You think the situation would be the same during a conflict??That's why I gave the example of Kargil!!
Besides right now they are too much preoccupied with their TTP and BLA brethren.
I could go on and on about your ignorance and naivety.Your own knowledge wrt this matter seems to be questionable at best,yet you got the courage to show the audacity to tell me that I know anything about war!!
Very well then,you are entitled to your opinions and I'm mine.Here by I rest my case.
Adios
Hello Anurag .
Please stop reading Pakistan defense forums .
The Pakistanis have roughly as much 155 systems as us . Their 203 systems are obsolete and very combersome for strategic mobility ,To compensate Our CAS hilariously overmatch theirs. The apparent performance of the "Nazia" round is "widely believed " to be superior to anything only by Pakistani fanboys.The A 100 reaches it's "reported range" only by using rockets with reduced explosive warheads .
An armed militia is totally useless to Pakistan unless we decide to occupy them.
Think hatke but not so hatke .
Karn
To SUVO: It takes several weeks to validate the results of such firing trials. The final tally won’t be available till August 2014. Since the IA wants to standardize on 155mm/52-cal systems, the 2S19M1 MSTA-S doesn’t meet the reqmt.
To DEFENSE & AEROSPACE: 1) ATLAS Elektronik, Textron Systems, SaabTech, Kongsberg, & ECA of France. 2) The reqmt is only for flight conversion & therefore existing B.737-800 flight simulators used by commercial airline operators will suffice. The IN’s own P-8I flight simulator is a far more sophisticated system with additional mission management sensor & display replicators in the cockpit.
To RAD: CARTOSAT’s imagery is of the electro-optical type, which is fine for terrain visualization for land navigation for ground forces. For GIS-based terrain mapping for PGMs, SAR imagery is mandatory & nothing else works. Therefore, RISAT-1/2 satellites are used for such purposes, as is SAR imagery obtained from EL/M-2060P pods. GPS-based Terrain navigation for PGMs requires coordinates right up to the 7th decimal point, which isn’t available from any photo-imagery or SAR-equipped satellite. Even with IRNSS satellite constellation, one requires targets to be mapped with on-the-spot coordinates acquisition—something that can be done only by UAVs or SOF personnel on long-distance covert intel-gathering missions, like the ones conducted by USN’s SEALs & Marine Force Recon. About Nirbhay, the DG of DRDO was referring on the need to evolve a family of cruise missiles from one standard baseline design, instead of developing different types of cruise missiles. Israel can’t provide such technical know-hows since most of such know-hows are derived from US-origin systems architectures & hardware. Even DSMAC isn’t stealthy & PGMs using such techniques can easily be detected by ground-based IRST sensors.
To KARN: Certainly not up to depths of 2,000km, but only up to 80km & that too only for land navigation. For airborne precision-strikes, mapping capability is very limited due to the availability of only two satellites, RISAT-1 & RISAT-2. The PRC on the other hand operates six SAR-equipped satellites.
To ROHIT: 1) No. 2) That’s right. 3) Even if they do see them, what can one expect from them?
To SUVO: It takes several weeks to validate the results of such firing trials. The final tally won’t be available till August 2014. Since the IA wants to standardize on 155mm/52-cal systems, the 2S19M1 MSTA-S doesn’t meet the reqmt.
To DEFENSE & AEROSPACE: 1) ATLAS Elektronik, Textron Systems, SaabTech, Kongsberg, & ECA of France. 2) The reqmt is only for flight conversion & therefore existing B.737-800 flight simulators used by commercial airline operators will suffice. The IN’s own P-8I flight simulator is a far more sophisticated system with additional mission management sensor & display replicators in the cockpit.
To RAD: CARTOSAT’s imagery is of the electro-optical type, which is fine for terrain visualization for land navigation for ground forces. For GIS-based terrain mapping for PGMs, SAR imagery is mandatory & nothing else works. Therefore, RISAT-1/2 satellites are used for such purposes, as is SAR imagery obtained from EL/M-2060P pods. GPS-based Terrain navigation for PGMs requires coordinates right up to the 7th decimal point, which isn’t available from any photo-imagery or SAR-equipped satellite. Even with IRNSS satellite constellation, one requires targets to be mapped with on-the-spot coordinates acquisition—something that can be done only by UAVs or SOF personnel on long-distance covert intel-gathering missions, like the ones conducted by USN’s SEALs & Marine Force Recon. About Nirbhay, the DG of DRDO was referring on the need to evolve a family of cruise missiles from one standard baseline design, instead of developing different types of cruise missiles. Israel can’t provide such technical know-hows since most of such know-hows are derived from US-origin systems architectures & hardware. Even DSMAC isn’t stealthy & PGMs using such techniques can easily be detected by ground-based IRST sensors.
To KARN: Certainly not up to depths of 2,000km, but only up to 80km & that too only for land navigation. For airborne precision-strikes, mapping capability is very limited due to the availability of only two satellites, RISAT-1 & RISAT-2. The PRC on the other hand operates six SAR-equipped satellites.
To ROHIT: 1) No. 2) That’s right. 3) Even if they do see them, what can one expect from them?
To GOOGLER: 1) Not this year for sure. 2) Yes, definitely. 3) It won’t be the envy of Pakistan, since even Pakistan wants to intensify & greatly expand its trading links with India. 4) Hopefully the new govt-in-power will reverse AKA’s decision. 5) It was a clear-cut case of gross human negligence.
To MUTTU: That’s easy. Replace the existing Carl Gustavs used during such operations with hyperbaric LAWs of the type available from RAFAEL of Israel.
To RAW13: Of course it is a failure at the institutional-level, but not that of Army HQ. The failure is that of the MoD & its inability to articulate a universally applicable promotions policy, i.e. either stick to seniority without exceptions, or embrace the ‘deep selection’ system based on meritocracy.
To SUDIPTO: Absolute baloney. Typical mis-reading of the situation by an out-of-area Caucasian! On the contrary, both Bangladesh & Sri Lanka have to be complimented on the splendid & creative ways their foreign service bureaucrats have engaged their Indian counterparts in almost all spheres, especially in the areas of trade & commerce.
To ANURAG: Have been extremely busy for the past 2 weeks while digging up lots of archival materials relating to the 1962 & 1971 wars, since such data is required for a monologue I'm now drafting for a forthcoming symposium on the role played by aerial logistics during these two wars & future options for rotary-winged aviation in the Indian subcontinent in terms of vertical envelopment options aimed at accelerating the operational tempos of future limited wars.
Will answer all your outstanding queries in this very thread later today.
@Kittu,
With pleasure my dear Kitty Kat.I can understand that you are an imbecile,hence unable to look for the details in the relevant sites.Ok here it is for your eyes only.
List of Pakistani 155mm Artillery guns:
1.Self-propelled :
M 109A5 Paladin - 500+
2.Towed :
A. M 59 - ~50
B. M 114 - 160+
C. M 198 - 160+
D. MKEK Panter L/52 - around 80 at present.Pakistan Army has planned to eventually induct total 200 systems.
In comparison,Indian Army has only ~350 or so operational Bofors FH 77B L/39 calibre towed guns in its inventory as of now.
@THANX Prasun da,my question can wait.You please carry on with your research for your upcoming monologue.I'll be eagerly waiting for it to come out.All the best.
that's quite a reply ANURAG .
@DAshu,
THANX boss but which one??I posted four replies.
Oh Anurag
Do use some common sense . The 203 mm artillery is pre WW2 anti fortification artillery . That cannot be hauled by a standard army truck .Hence it lacks "strategic mobility" ,learn something you ignorant moron . The 203 mm cannon is surpassed in effectiveness by the 155 mm .
The 105 mm and 122 mm are regimental artillery while the 155 is divisional artillery . Even after we finish producing the entire run of 155mm we will continue to have similar guns in service . Try to comprehend the role of different guns before you start waving around ignorance with pride .
The 130 mm in service with our army has a longer range than the 155/39 the pakistanis have at the cost of a lower rate of fire.It forms the backbone of our divisional artillery . Infact the 130 mm handily out performed the 155/39s of the americans in vietnam.
This is the 1st time a lack of strategic depth has been described to me as an advantage . You have revolutionized military philosophy "general"!
Our airforce will not be able to mount effective CAS in the 1st few hours, while the magical pakistan artillery teleports around destroying everything we send at them in the mean time ..Sure ..
Naiza round ... Where would be without pedantics and forum discussions based on photographs that do not scale .
Oh no sir i am an unashamed Soviet/Russia equipment fanboy and I firmly believe that the Arjun , LCA ,Insas as they exist now are the worst pieces of equipment in the world today (by Era). But even then the sad attempts by Pakistan to try and claim that they are superior and have indigenous weapons development fills me with schdenfrude .
The difference between an army and a militia/insurgency is broadly that , an army has the support of heavy weaponary and airpower as well as a logistics and the most important distinction is that an army has mobility (well this ties in with the logistics part). A militia can hold an area an that has to be defensible (City, mountains forest etc )Even then cannot hold out against heavy weapons nor can they move a large distance nor can they keep up a fight for long due to not having a consistent supply chain . Hence the only good thing that they are good for is harassment of occupying forces. In pakistans context the only place a militia can be a problem is in the cities as we have no need to go fight in the eastern mountains as almost all of their industry and infrastructure is in the plains in the west near our border.
I know you were responding to someone else but Pakistan has about 300 155 mm (many of them are older l/24s with an abysmal range of 14kms only the 30 odd Panters are l/52s ) towed systems and roughly 100 paladins (the number of SH 1s is not clear). While we have 200 155/39s remaining .
Karn
@Kittu,
You Thanked the anon for nothing because all of his so called counter arguments are just a bunch of half-truths and false claims.If you wanna trust that dog,then you are welcome but beware if truth is what you seek.
I gave you the names of those models used by Pak army kittu,so it shouldn't be a big problem for you to dig those infos out from relevant sites.Give it a try for yourself,if you are unable to find out then you can always ask me here in Trishul-Trident.
But in brief,almost their entire arty arm is of US origin except the MKEK Panters which are of Turkish origin.And spare support isn't a big problem since their POF is producing them in-house.
Karn,
I can't seem to decide where I should laugh or feel pity at your ignorance!!Your entire comment is full of nonsensical bullshit and you call me an ignorant....pretty ironic huh??
So what if the M 115s are from '40s??When did I claim otherwise you retard??And even then they've got nearly the same range as our IFGs with at least four times the destructive capability.And they still out range our D 30s anyway.
"That cannot
be hauled by a standard army
truck .Hence it lacks "strategic
mobility" ,learn something you
ignorant moron " - LMFAOROFL!!Biggest piece of crap of this century.
"The 203 mm
cannon is surpassed in
effectiveness by the 155 mm" . - Of course.When did claim otherwise....sorry,I can't remember.
" The 105 mm and 122 mm are
regimental artillery while the 155 is
divisional artillery" - another piece of premium quality bullshit.Do you even know that there is NO operational formation in infantry or arty arms of Indian Army as regiments??Indian Army is not like the PLA where there is an operational formation called Regiment (equivalent to a division of Indian Army).
Indian Army is structured like this - section....platoon....company....battalion....brigade....division....corps....zone.Where do you see regiment in the hierarchy here??And if there is no regiment,then how the question even arises about regimental artillery??At least read up a few things before opening your shithole....would save you some embarrassment.
And the word you intended to use would be battalion/brigade level artillery.And even then it's not completely right since there is no fixed rule of what kind of artillery assets will be provided to which particular formations,rather the availability of assets and the nature of support deemed necessary plays the deciding role of which formation would be provided with what.
"Even after we
finish producing the entire run of
155mm we will continue to have
similar guns in service . Try to
comprehend the role of different
guns before you start waving
around ignorance with pride" -
Oh yeah??!!May be that's why Indian Army is looking for upgrading its entire M 46 inventory to 155mm L45 standard and replacement for its D 30s (the IFGs will be retained for mountain regions)??!!I think I should tell my neighbour when he comes home from his duty that they are a bunch of fools who don't have an iota of what to do and learn a thing or two from you then??I'm just amazed by your level of stupidity and ignorance....Really!!
" The 130 mm in service with our
army has a longer range than the
155/39 the pakistanis have at the
cost of a lower rate of fire"-
No longer the case boyo,at least not in our case it's not.Apparently you are not a very current affairs guy.So let me give you a little dose of reality.The maximum range of M 46 is ~26 km with unassisted full bore shots which was indeed greater than 155mm L 39 guns.But due to emergence of better propelant charges and metalurgy of shells,the L39 guns can now engage targets to near the same distance with unassisted rounds with ~40% more destructive capability.
And there is more to it.There are multiple types of 155mm extended range base bleed rounds currently under production by both India and Pakistan which enables the L39 guns with standard 23 litre volume chambers to engage targets beyond 30 km.But there are no 130mm base bleed ammo is available to Indian Army and hence the M 46 guns no longer enjoy the advantage of longer range.
Nothing remain unchanged for too long.It's high time you wake up and smell the coffee.
Continued from above
@Karn,
"Oh no sir i am an unashamed
Soviet/Russia equipment fanboy
and I firmly believe that the Arjun ,
LCA ,Insas as they exist now are the
worst pieces of equipment in the
world today (by Era)."-
Then you are proving again that you are nothing more than an ignorant retard with intellect level less developed than a donkey.
As it stands now,INSAS 1B1 trench is comparable to other assault rifles chambered for 5.56X45mm NATO ammunitions in terms of accuracy and effective range at a fraction of their cost.
And it's better than rifles chambered for Soviet M43 and 5.45X39mm ammunition in almost every aspects including accuracy,range (due to better sights and the flatter trajectory of 5.56X45mm NATO ammunitions).
And Arjun is one of the better tank designs.In many aspects,it's better than other eastern block tanks including sighting devices,FCS,main gun,armor,suspension,ammo storage etc.Only thing lacking is a modern FSAPDS round since the current round design is mid '80s vintage and hasn't been replaced ever since.
But whom am I talking too??
"But even then
the sad attempts by Pakistan to try
and claim that they are superior and
have indigenous weapons
development fills me with
schdenfrude ".-
Well I'm not a Pakistani,so can't speak anything on this on their behalf.
" (many of them
are older l/24s with an abysmal
range of 14kms" -
Only the ~120 odd M 114s are of L24 calibre and they are intended to be phased out by new Panters.
"only the 30 odd
Panters are l/52s ) towed systems" -
You really are an ignorant idiot aren't you??Turky sent 12 MKEK Panters in 2011.Till now POF has produced about ~64 systems....so the total number should stand at ~80,with PA plans to eventually induct upwards 200 Panters.Get that into your head fool.
"roughly 100 paladins"- Did you pull this gem out of your arse??!!Oh wait,I know....you got it from wikipedia.What else could be expected from a moron like you??
Listen you dumb retard,according to Janes,Pakistan Army presently has some 500+ M 109A5 Paladin tracked SPH...period and it's a much more reliable than your dumb wikipedia.
"the
number of SH 1s is not clear"- Only to a retard like you whose only knowledge is from wikipedia.For others it's crystal clear and the answer is zero.Pakistan Army do not have a single SH 1 in their inventory.They have settled for the MKEK Panter.How much an ignorant are you man??!!
About your "lengthy,insightful and enlightening" paragraph on the militia (like I didn't know) - listen boy,I've already explained it in detail multiple times and I've got no energy left to do it all over again.I've been doing this over and over hoping to get a different outcome but I'm not insane.So can't do it anymore.
And this is the last time I'm replying to your post.You are simply not fit to run a debate with as don't even have the bare minimum of knowledge and ability to comprehend simple english necessary.
It's been enough already.Just grow up now because this world has got no place for simpletons like you.
Hi Anurag and Karn
The summer is very hot, cool of guys ,I have taken Prasuns suggestion seriously and stuck to king fisher extra strong beer !!hic hic
what say prasun
Prasun do post some more pics and literature, especially on the new ABM test vehicle, kudos for correctly reporting the dual seeker in the missile .I am thrilled by the tech that has gone into it , especially the sensor data fusion etc . The miss distance can always be reduced by further tests, Are we seeing a nascent anti sat tech taking place ????
We children tend to fight in the absence of parents so do keep us busy with more exciting posts
nice one anurag...
these fanboys have not the slightest bit of idea what they are talking.these are what i like to call wikipedia experts.these are the guys who watch history channel documentaries and claim that f-35 is the best fighter for india and that "future of aviation is UCAVs".
@karn
dude you need to visit some sites other than wikipedia.
plz do search up the differnce between a howitzer and a field gun.
do some research and u will find no place to hide ur face for all the bullshit u have written
inflexible conventional mindset of the army is one of the prime reasons for its woes.the army firmly bound by traditions ,which i would say are better described as notions and that is the primary cause for the ensueing stagnation.
the air force and navy have displayed tremondous flexibility and have leapfrogged the army moving into 21st century whereas our army,the second largest in the world is still languishing in mid 20th century. all this for a few old armchair generals who live in a fairytale world of theirs with all the world's luxuries and refuse come to terms with the fact that times have changed.
kindly look up this link:-
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Galleries/Wars/Kargil/0247.jpg.html
the caption on the link is:-
"A temporarily-created air defence post, with a Jawan holding a 7.62mm medium machine gun, while another watches through his binoculars for Pakistani air intrusions."
so in 1999 all the army had for air defence of its artillery assets were bren guns mounted AA tripods.
and this is still continueing.i recently saw the same arrangement in a nat geo documentary on artillery.
i beleive this aptly demonstates the dated tactics that the army follows.
also i read somewhere,probably in defenceforumindia ,that insas bulpup was rejected -(here comes the big one)
"because it won't look good during parades"
and today we pay israel millions for the tavors.<>
You are bad at debating . An insult with no answer is counter argument . You are the one that listed the 203 as a threat to us .I said it is an anti fortification arty piece designed for use against fortifications like the seigfried line . Might I suggest reading comprehension ?
Please demonstrate how a 203 can be towed by a 6X6 .. I won't hold my breath.
Yes I made a mistake .. I described it in regiments as with Soviet army formations .
Please tell me more about the how artillery assets are handled .Division level arty is never used without explicit authorization of division HQ.
Wow I gave a simply example of vietnam and you went full shitpoast . I was merely trying to explaining to you what we use instead of 155 mm as our division arty when you sperged out about our 105 mm and 122 mm guns .
We will use these guns far into the future rest assured . And we tried to upgrade the 130 mm because our MOD cant get it's head out of it's own ass . And I care little about who your neighbor is keep that to your self .
Ah yes general .. I await your thesis on how the lack of depth of pakistan where even their reserve formations are within striking distance and their aircraft have 3 minutes to scramble in time to intercept any aircraft that crosses their border is an advantage . If all you have is shitposting do shut up .
You asked the question on how our airforce can eliminate the pak arty within hours o hostilitiees being declared . I asked you in turn which pak arty can effectively engage our fores within the 1st few hours of hostilities while remaining safe from our air assets . Surely teleportation is the answer . Get back to me when you manage to get your head out of your own ass hole .
The folks on tanknet know a lot but the assumption they work on is that besides the length of the sabot everything remains equal. This is the assmtion they wrk on when comparing between nato and soviet rounds .The naiza has a heavier sabot that they assume doesn't lose muzzle velocity and velocity over the time of flight n Indian.
I am well aware of what KMDB is you pleb . It's sad . the only thing keeping their head aboe water is engine production engineering support .
You call me a India fanboy and quote Kunal as reliable source . the guy that fanboys every bit of equipment put out by drdo and cries about corrupt senior officers who chose foreign equipment and evil russians bent on providing us equipment to tide over the shortages caused by the sad state of our defense industry .
Ah yes the mighty Insas1b1 that required almost a decade of refining from the orignal shit version to get to a barely acceptable level. And has the performance out of a 18 inch barrel that other designs achieve with 16 inch barrels and is almost half a kg heavier than almost every AR platform in service. .It can I said by era improve reading comprehension .
THe only thing the Arjun has over the t 90MS is the hydropneumatic suspension .
Wow considering the arjun holds its ammo right at the front next to the driver where it is most likely to be hit is "superior " ammo storage according to you.. . bravo . But whom am I talking to ...
Well considering the 500 paladin number comes straight out of wiki and janes claims that sh 1 are used by pakistan . Please wiki warrior throw more shit .
Re militia :I do my part to inform morons like you . But stay ignorant my friend ...
@ saurav
Read about the difference in the roles as used between the 2 as used by the IA .
Now keep quiet ,grown ups are talking .
Karn
mr.karn,
age is no pretext for writting bullshit...:D
PLZ DO READ WHY THE INDIAN ARMY IS UPGUNNING ALL M-46 TO 155 MM CALIBRE.
also , have you ever wondered why there are so many pics of the humble 105 LFG in kargil and not of the mighty M-46 .
the reason is simple...true field guns like the m-46 are made to fire at flatter trajectories with higher velocities .. so they were only of limited use in kargil..and so will be the case inany future wars with china.they are however useful in the thar and that is the only reason they still exist..the army however thought a piece of equipment that big and heavy (7.7 tons) must have some more punch to it..and hence the upgradation effort,which was however stopped following a barrel explosion.
as for your desire to see a 6x6 towing a 203mm , plz refer to the link below:-
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-7QmZvTjx1PQ/Uj3_znrFMLI/AAAAAAAANcI/Z9RijqLdqsg/s1600/Pak+203mm+howitzers.jpg
ironically this piece is operated by PA.
if you are still not satisfied plz do google up "M115 howitzer".
-thank you
@Karn,
"Ah yes the mighty Insas1b1 that
required almost a decade of
refining from the orignal shit
version to get to a barely
acceptable level. "
Don't you ever get exhausted after spreading so much nonsense??
" And has the
performance out of a 18 inch barrel
that other designs achieve with 16
inch barrels" -
You have got anything to show for your claims dog??By the way,you can be again proven spreading false propaganda through your arse without the slightest of knowledge on this.
For example,INSAS 1B1 has got a 18.4" barrel to be precise.And its initial muzzle velocity is ~920 meter/sec for M 193 rounds and ~900+ meter/sec for the heavier SS 109/M 885 ammunitions.Try achieving such velocity from a 16" barrel you bastard.So again you lied you retard.
And INSAS is better than those rifles chambered for Soviet M 43 (like the AKM) and M74 rounds(AK 74) due to a variety of reasons.Like AKs are fitted with open sights which are craps..........literally.
There are better 5.56mm rounds available all over the world like the new OFB 5.56X45 l rounds with a 66 grain hardened steel penetrator,American Mk 318SOST and Mk 262 77 grain bullets.No such rounds available for AK rifles.
INSAS has a much flatter trajectory and higher muzzle velocity due to its longer barrel than AKs which results into increased range and armor perforation capabilities.
These are only few.
"And we tried
to upgrade the 130 mm because
our MOD cant get it's head out of
it's own ass".
No you moron.They wanted to upgun the M 46 to Metamorphosis L45 standard due to a variety of technical and operational reasons.Like
1.Standardisation of the artillery arm to 155mm for reduced logistical footprint.
2.155mm L45 howitzers have a far greater range than a M 46 field gun.
3.Availability of a variety of long range 155mm shells from both domestic and foreign sources.
4.Having been designed for flat trajectory,a field gun like M 46 has very limited effectiveness in mountainous terrains since due to their flatter trajectory,they can't engage targets behind a ridge.
But of course you wouldn't know these stuffs since you are a fucking retard.
I don't know why I keep replying to your nonsense??But now finally I've had enough of your BULLCRAP.As far as I'm concerned,this conversation is over.But if you insist on keep beating around the bush then you are welcome.Do it yourself.
@Saurav,
Thanks for your support and your informative posts.I'm looking forward to have a conversation with you in near future.
But one advice - don't waste your time on dogs like this Karn. I've wasted my time on him and trust me,he's not worth it.
@Karn,
Listen you dog,it's you who should grow up and keep quite,not Saurav.He always substantiate his claims with proper evidence.....you on the other hand can only make tall claims,spread false propaganda and lie through your arse!!Heck you don't even know the proper nomenclatures!!And you tell others to keep quite!!You really are some piece of work....gotta give you that!!
@Anurag,
The kind of language you are using is unwarranted.
Please check back your posts.
Prasun, what exactly is the status of the Super Su MKI deal? When will it begin and in what numbers??? You had made a blod entry in 2011 stating from "air supremacy to air dominance" that I have just been reading but none of this seems to have happened to date....
Anurag, check your very language, googling some information and taking part in some retard only forums does not give somebody eternal right to abuse your fellow debater.
very good and better information
rf services
Post a Comment