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Wednesday, August 24, 2016

Assessing Latest PLAAF Air-Defence Activities In TAR

This year’s series of annual PLAAF exercises within that portion of the Tibet Autonomous Region (TAR) in Tibet Military District (TMD) that faces the Sino-Indian Line of Actual Control (LAC), which commenced in late March 20016 and are still continuing, have witnessed significant accretions, with the most notable among them being the introduction of a solitary KJ-500 turboprop-powered airborne early warning and control (AEW & C) platform, plus the deployment of LY-80 MR-SAMs in place of the HQ-12 ADK-12 KS-1D MR-SAMs.
It may be recalled that the PLAAF has since 2010 been deploying Su-27SK/Su-27UBK/J-11A heavy-MRCAs belonging to the Shizuishan-based 6th Air Division’s 16th Air Regiment, and J-10As from the Mengzi-based 44th Air Division’s 131st Air Regiment (based in Luliang) out to the dual-use airports at Lhasa Gonggar (facing Sikkim and northern West Bengal) and Ngari (facing Ladakh in Jammu & Kashmir) twice every year during summertime and wintertime for two-week-long deployment periods.
These used to be accompanied by corresponding deployments of the HQ-12 ADK-12 KS-1D MR-SAMs of the PLAAF’s Chengdu-based 11th Anti-Air Artillery Brigade (Unit 95607), which has three Regiments--21st, 22nd and 23rd--are equipped with the HQ-64/LY-60D E-SHORADS, and HQ-12 ADK-12 KS-1D MR-SAMs. The latter were deployed at fixed launch-sites located at Lhasa Gonggar and the dual-use Shigatse Airport.
Since late 2012, the 651st Independent Anti-Aircraft Artillery Brigade, based at Nyingchi, began taking over from the HQ-12 ADK-12 KS-1Ds of the 11th Anti-Air Artillery Brigade’s 22nd Regiment. The 651st comprises a Regiment of LY-80 70km-range MR-SAMs (containing 16 TELs each loaded with six MR-SAM vertical launch-cells), a Regiment of 18 tracked PGZ-04As (each armed with four FN-6 VSHORADS launchers missiles and four 25mm cannons), a Regiment of FM-90 SHORADS, and a composite battalion that has 108 FN-6 VSHORADS/MANPADS launchers, 24 Type 73 towed 37mm anti-aircraft guns and 18 towed twin 35mm PG-99 ‘Giant Bow’ anti-aircraft guns. 
Also included are LIMAN ground-based jammers, JY-27A VHF-band anti-PGM volume-search radars as part of the LY-80 MR-SAM Regiment, YLC-18 S-band 3-D acquisition radars for the FM-90s (now replacing the older LSS-1/Type 120 L-band 2-D low-altitude acquisition radars), YLC-6 S-band 2-D low-level air-defence radars for the FN-6 VSHORADS/MANPADS launchers, Type 73 anti-aircraft guns and 18 PG-99 ‘Giant Bow’ anti-aircraft guns.
As for airspace surveillance radars, there is one JL-3D-90A L-band 3-D airspace surveillance radar operated by the PLAAF at the Ganba La radar station southwest of Lhasa, plus another one north of Shigatse Airport. These are joined by three Army-operated YLC-2V 3-D S-band acquisition radars located around Ngari Airport, Qamdo Bangda Airport, and at PLA SIGINT Stations north of Bum La.
The PLAAF’s Air-Defence Reporting Centre for monitoring TAR’s air-defence identification zone (ADIZ) is located at Ganba La.
In future, the PLAAF will also begin making use of dual-use airports immediately north of Arunachal Pradesh, these being Qamdo and Linzhi.
Going hand-in-hand with these developments are increasing efforts by both the PLAAF and the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) to undertake joint air campaigns that since 2011 have been rehearsed under the ‘Shaheen’ series of joint exercises. It may be recalled that the ‘Shaheen’ series of bi-annual exercises commenced in 2011 when, for the first time ever as part of EX Shaheen-I, a PLAAF contingent with four Su-27UBKs from the 8th Flight Academy (also known as ‘Blue Army Aggressors’) deployed to Rafiqui air base in Shorkot, Pakistan. 
This exercise, lasting for over two weeks starting March 11, saw the PAF fielding its Mirage VEFs and F-7PGs executing various various air-to-air and air-to-ground combat scenarios. The PLAAF’s 8th Flight Academy operates Su-27UBKs and Su-30MKKs that simulate enemy air force tactics during dissimilar air combat training exercises. The PLAAF possesses three such ‘Blue Army Aggressor’ squadrons (the first of which was raised in June 1987), with the other two flying J-10A M-MRCAs and J-7E light interceptors. All three squadrons operate under the PLAAF’s Canzhou-based Flight Test and Training Base in Hebei province.
The second joint air exercise—EX Shaheen-II—was conducted between September 3 and 22, 2013 at Hotan air base in the Hetian Prefecture of Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region. For this, the PAF flew in its F-7PGs and Mirage-IIIEPs. This was for the first time in the PLAAF’s history that a foreign air force had conducted a joint exercise inside China’s airspace. Participating PLAAF assets included J-10As of the Hotan-based 109th Brigade, JH-7As of the Urumqi-based 37th Air Division Division’s 110th Brigade, J-8Fs from the Hotan-based 109th Brigade, and Su-27SKs and Su-27UBKs from the Korla-based 111th Brigade.
The third such bilateral air exercise—EX Shaheen-III—was held at the PAF’s Rafiqui air base in the northeastern province of Punjab between May 5 and 28, 2014. The PLAAF sent four J-10A/B M-MRCAs along with a detachment of air-defence controllers and ground-support crew, while the PAF deployed up to eight of its JF-17s and Mirage-VEFs. EX Shaheen-IV was conducted at the Yinchuan air base in the Southern Command (previously part of Langzhou MR) between September 12 and October 4, 2015. During these exercises, three different types of frontline combat aircraft from each of the two air forces were fielded—this being a first. In addition, the PLAAF for the very first time deployed one of its KJ-200 turboprop-powered AEW & C platforms, while for the PAF this was the first time that it went for air exercises outside China’s Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region (which falls under the Lanzhou Military Region).
The PLAAF’s combat aircraft assets taking part in the exercises included J-11A heavy-MRCAs and Su-27UBKs belonging to the Shizuishan-based 6th Air Division’s 16th Air Regiment, J-10As from the Mengzi-based 44th Air Division’s 131st Air Regiment (based in Luliang) and a detachment of JH-7A bombers from the Urumqi-based 37th Air Division Division’s 110th Brigade. The PAF sent two JF-17 Thunder light-MRCAs, two Mirage-IIIEP tactical interdictors and two F-7PG light interceptors, which were accompanied by an IL-78MKP aerial refuelling tanker.
EX Shaheen-VI began on April 9, 2016 and lasted till April 30. During this exercise, the PAF for the first time deployed its ZDK-03 Karakoram Eagle AEW & C platforms (from which the KJ-500 is derived) for airborne battle management missions. 

188 comments:

Subho said...

Prasun, this is very serious. What are India's options ? I believe there are grounds for India to consider replacing the CMS onboard the Scorpenes to limit the damage and have DCNS pay for the associated certification and integration.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/defence/our-french-submarine-builder-in-massive-leak-scandal/news-story/3fe0d25b7733873c44aaa0a4d42db39e

Pawan said...

Dear Prasun da,

In continuation to discussion on kashmir in your previous blog entry, I think India would have lost Punjab if india had reported like this in early 1990s'. In fact to disadvantage of India, only India hater or BJP hater journalists are allowed or working in Kashmir valley.

My assessment on kashmir is that we have to fight decisive war (covet/overt/hybrid) with Pak. Wars of ideologies is such that only one of them (India or Pak) can survive ultimately.

Spykar said...

Prasun Da,

Delhi should keep a closer tab on the so-called Indian-analysts and intellectuals, and not only preachers like Zakir Naik, who propagate such dreams and lies. They are far too many on the TV channels and the social networks. Its an information war out there, all trying to manufacture 'consent' with their truckloads of Avidya and Aviveka (not the absence of intellect or knowledge but that of the wrong kind) for their propaganda and their sympathizers follow. Monkey see monkey do!

In India surely fiction does a better job than facts. The bigger the lie the more it sells. Any reasonable person who wants to have a debate will see that these are disingenuous tactics to avoid the debate, an indicative of resistance rendered in high-pitched verbosity, noise and chaos.

China, meanwhile, advances its pawns, slowly but surely, and the climate seems to be changing on the Roof of the World with inflows of infrastructure and tourists. For them, it doesnt matter if the Cat is black or white as long as it catches the Mice. Here, one may think Indian Media and the govt. is sleeping, but that is not the case. They are too busy with 'civilizational' issues of the day or just in a perpetual fault finding mission that serves nobody and deviates the public from the real truth.

Winter is Coming & the nights will be long and cold, but sooner than later The Truth will shine hot and bright and melt away all the fears and lies and that can be foretold.

Spykar said...

http://scroll.in/article/814274/for-azadi-for-all-it-ishttp-cms-scroll-team-time-to-break-the-fiction-of-jammu-and-kashmir

http://www.dailyexcelsior.com/on-unrest-in-kashmir/

Siddharth said...

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/on-indias-shopping-list-500-choppers-220-fighter-jets-12-submarines-1449315?pfrom=home-lateststories

The above news hinting 100 Tejas LMRCA, 120 Rafale MMRCA, 500 utility helicopters and 12 SSN.

Spykar said...

Dada,

"Prime Minister Narendra Modi has handed foreign secretary S. Jaishankar charge of India’s diplomacy with China and Pakistan, ending the near-complete control that national security adviser Ajit Doval held over New Delhi’s two toughest relationships....

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1160824/jsp/frontpage/story_104159.jsp#.V70x3Vt951t

Rustom said...

Hi Prasun,

http://trishul-trident.blogspot.in/2012/02/how-china-will-fight-future-border-wars.html

How do we plan to mitigate the threat posed by Chinese massed fire assaults using their inventories of conventional armed nlos-bsm and TBM? In this present thread alone you have posted a slide showing underground tunnels. stockpiling them in Qizil.PLARF can use these nlosbsm to pound our staging areas and troop concentrations in Eastern Ladakh,HP and in Sikkim pre emptively or in the very early stages of a conflict while staying well away from our engagement envelope. Almost all of their nlos-bsm are 150 km+ and even their heavy Mbrl like the A-100E has a 100 km+ range.

The PLA rocket forces have in their arsenal a plethora of Nlos-bsm and Tbm such as the CPMIEC P-20 which has a range of 70-270kms and carries a 200 kg warhead which may be a sub kiloton warhead or a HE or blast frag ,the B-611M which has a 280 km range and carries a 480 kg warhead. CPMIEC’s 2-tonne B-611M missile is designed to attack supply lines, warehouses, ballistic/cruise missile launch sites, SAM batteries, command-and-control centres, air bases, road/railway transportation hubs, and area targets in urbansurroundings. The other Nlosbsms are the SY-400,BP-12A and 150 km ranged P-12A.

The tank garrisions and troop concentrations in Ladakh will be juicy targets for their tbm and mbrls. How does the IA plan to protect its formations from such fire assaults and Nlos-bsms? Will a Bmd regiment comprising of endo atmospheric interceptors be deployed in these above mentioned areas? Can the to be procured Mrsam regiments equipped with the 90 km Barak-8 take care of all such tactical ballistic missiles and battlefield support missiles with a max 300 km range? Will the IAF launch Interdiction sorties over TAR to locate and destroy these mobile missile launchers in a manner similar to that flown by F-15E Eagles during Op Desert Storm?

As for the multitude of glide bombs and cruise missiles like the DH-10 that the PLAAF can deploy at will,what are our options for countering them? Spyder SR batteries for the army are still some time away.
Army HQ and airforce HQ must wargame these scenarios where the PLA are resorting to massive volleys of these TBMs and they must induct the required air defense assets for force protection.

joydeep ghosh said...

@prasun da

1. you said 'During this exercise, the PAF for the first time deployed its ZDK-03 Karakoram Eagle AEW & C platforms (from which the KJ-500 is derived) for airborne battle management missions.' i think its KJ-200

2. North Korea again tested a SLBM how come they manged to do so in 1960s vintage sub if at all

3. You keep saying situation is not that bad in Kashmir, may be North Kashmir is ok but south Kashmir is going to hell with no cops deployed & cops saying govt has abandoned them, with BSF being deployed after 12 yr gap

http://epaperbeta.timesofindia.com/Article.aspx?eid=31809&articlexml=No-cops-in-4-S-Kashmir-districts-as-23082016001029

4. Dawood's 6 addresses have been validated so now except for basking in diplomatic victory for India i think it means nothing else

5. ALGs have been activated in ladakh, Arunchal, but none in Sikkim, i feel Sikkim could play a imp. role in air battle across LAC into Tibet as its closest to Lhasa other than tawang

6. Do you we have to wait out the death/incapacity of the current crop of separatists (who are awash with hawala money n willing to lsten) in Kashmir, to pursue any meaningful dialogue

thanks

Joydeep Ghosh

Vikram Guha said...

Prasun Da,

(1) I used to study in Cooch Behar a long time ago & so called up some old classmates in Cooch Behar, Siliguri and Dhubri. They all tell me that the BJP has re activated the old program of the Congress which is to incite local tribals so that they can get a separate state.

Similar efforts are being made by the BJP especially Amit Shah and Co in North East as well. In Agartala they are encouraging local Tripuri tribes to target people who are not from the backward community. Consequently today morning local tribals today killed 3 people including a sub inspector.

Tomorrow Pakistan & China will exploit these same forces.If such practices continue India will probably reduced to 100s of kingdoms just like it was in 1947.


(2) You probably have read about the Scorpene submarine leaks. Here are the details released by the Australian.The Australian has chosen to redact sensitive information from the documents

https://theaustralianatnewscorpau.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/secret-submarine-dossier-document-11.pdf

https://theaustralianatnewscorpau.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/secret-submarine-dossier-document-21.pdf

https://theaustralianatnewscorpau.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/subs-document-3.pdf

An Indian Navy official interviewed by Times NOW said the leak was "catastrophic". DCNS however suggested that the leak happened from India's end. This is surprising because AFAIK nothing purposeful(related to designing of the Scorpene) happens at Mazagaon docks.


Looking forward to your views.

Regards,

VIKRAM

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To VIKRAM GUHA: The data that's supposedly been 'leaked' are ALL marketing presentations given by DCNS & THALES. Such presentations are always classified RESTRICTED, meaning they are commercial proprietary data. All they do is specify the guaranteed operating parameters which the OEM stands by. Those pages also reveal that this documentation was in the possession of IN HQ, & not with MDL, which concerns itself only with production/manufacturing data pertaining to the hull. Data on the SUBTICS CMS is also not sensitive as the Pakistan Navy's 3 Agosta 90B SSKs also use SUBTICS. The PDF also reveal that while some documents originated from DCNS, others originated from THALES. All in all, these were just part of a marketing presentation, that's all.

The documentation that will be classified as 'SECRET' or 'TOP SECRET' has not yet been drafted. Such documentation will be available ONLY AFTER the first Scorpene SSK completes her sea-trials & the supervising IN crew begins the process of writing the user manuals, which will be completely different from the manuals written by the navies of Chile, Malaysia & Brazil, simply because the operating conditions vary from sea to sea, ocean to ocean. Therefore, I will not be too concerned about the prospects of this 'leak' compromising national security in any manner.

Of course now a whole bunch of broadcast TV journalists will go to town making a mountain out of an ant-hill, & several retired IN officers will have their short-lived moments of glory by belching out illogical & ill-informed soundbytes of the type that were belched out WRT the 2 Fincantieri-made fleet tankers. But in reality, do rest assured that this 'leak' is by no stretch of imagination an event that will make the heavens fall.

Raman said...

Another really interesting and informative Post.........

and, while I am it..........

In order to 'bug' China (and Pakistan) further - what is stopping India from at least talking to Taiwan ?? If it wasn't for China - Pakistan would really be gone......a visit by the EAM (or even the NSA !!) would really upset the cart........(reverse 'String of Pearls' - with India cosying up with Vietnam, Japan and now South Korea (100+ K9 Vajra/12+ MCMV's by GSL/5 Hyundai Supply Ships with HSL etc).....

And, can you imagine what would happen IF Modi invites the Dalai Lama for Lunch !!

AVI D said...

"The data that has been leaked is reported to have details like specifications of the torpedo launch system, speed and condition needed for using the periscope and functioning of the above-water and underwater sensors. According to the report, the data tells the submarine crew where on the boat they can speak safely to avoid detection by the enemy.
PTI said over 4,000 pages on the submarine’s combat management system are among the leaked information."

Surely all this isn't 'marketing material'?

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/scorpene-submarine-data-leak-indian-navy-dcns-facts-2993755/

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To AVI D: Those are ALL marketing materials & that's why if you see the top of the documents, it is classified as RESTRICTED, & not SECRET. All such information is given to any potential customer & I myself have scores of such presentations in PDF/PowerPoint formats for various platforms & sub-systems of submarines, aircraft, tanks etc etc running into thousands of pages. Hell, even the Pakistan Navy has had such data since the previous decade when it was in the market for single-hulled SSKs meant as replacements for its Agosta 70B SSKs.

It may well be a 'secret' for newspapers & journalists, but not industry professionals & domain experts who routinely come across such materials. I can tell you the only place when the SSK crew can speak freely are the toilets & engine compartment! Do you really ASSUME or perceive that a SSK equipped with vibration isolators & insulators meant for minimising the sounds generated by the propulsion system will be totally useless to prevent acoustic signatures emanating from human conversations??? Or are you ASSUMING that the SSK's crew complement always shout above one another when communicating, just like what happens during 'monsoon weddings'?

All it takes is for one newspaper to label all the leaked documents as being 'Secret' & everyone else then follows this line of argument like headless chicken! That's like claiming since the user's manual of an automobile is available in printed form, it then means that automobile's superior performance secrets have been compromised.

To SPYKAR: The 'tamaasha' has already begun in all TV channels, with each retired IN official describing this as 'alarming', since that's what the TV channels want everyone to hear & in return these retired officials will be paid a sum of Rs.3,000 for their respective 10-minute soundbytes. Some of these retired IN officials even called me this afternoon to get themselves 'educated' on this subject & when I explained to them why these were neither technological nor operational secrets, they confided that they had already been told by the TV channels what line of argument to take & what was the financial quid pro quo.

Spykar said...

Regarding the 'leak' what i could gather are :

1. The stealth capabilities of the six new Indian Scorpene submarines
2. The frequencies at which the subs gather intelligence
3. The levels of noise the subs make at various speeds
4. Diving depths, range and endurance
5. Magnetic, electromagnetic and infra-red data
6. Specifications of the submarine’s torpedo launch system and the combat system
7. Speed and conditions needed for using the periscope
8. Propeller’s noise specifications
9. Radiated noise levels when the submarine surfaces

Manohar Parrikar says "What I understand is there is a hacking..'

The Australian sources says "...the data is suspected of being removed from France in that same year by a former French Navy officer who was at that time a DCNS subcontractor. The data is then believed to have been taken to a company in Southeast Asia, possibly to assist in a commercial venture for a ­regional navy. It was subsequently passed by a third party to a second company in the region before being sent on a data disk by regular mail to a company in Australia. It is unclear how widely the data has been shared in Asia or whether it has been obtained by foreign ­intelligence agencies."

DCNS company spokeswoman said "it had come against a difficult commercial backdrop and that corporate espionage could be to blame. There is India, Australia and other prospects, and other countries could raise legitimate questions over DCNS. It’s part of the tools in economic warfare.

Admiral Arun Prakash says "“The threat would be that they would be able to detect you sooner. When a submarine goes out in the sea, ships are sent to listen to and to record its signature. All navies are eager to find out the parameters. Even otherwise, when the submarine would have gone to a coast, or while crossing someplace like the Malacca strait, the signatures would have been studied, If the information is valid, it is a concern for the submarine. Maybe we need to make some changes in the design.

Leaked No, Hacked Yes.
Secret No, Sensitive Yes.
Confidential No, Critical Yes.
Classified No, Compromised Yes.
Alarmed No, Concerned Yes.
Yes, No, No, Yes...

Whatever the tamasha is some damage is surely done, though there are very few things on that leak that may have been unknown to China and others in the region. I Bet a Capital 'B' that IN should get a massive DISCOUNT for this one! What Say Prasun Da?

Arpit Kanodia said...

Sir,

Shaheen exercise meant for preparing SOPs and protocol for two-front war? Or for deploying PLAAF in Pakistan in event of Coalition forces threat to launch a similar type of Operation Desert Storm against Pakistan?

It seems like Shaheen-1 launched just after the OBL raid.

Subho said...

The documents posted on The Australian's website is a heavily redacted version of the whole 22400 page document that they claim to have seen/in possession of, so it would be premature to make an accurate assessment of the nature and degree of classified details that have been compromised.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To SPYKAR: Firstly, it’s not frequencies at which submarines gather intelligence. Even commercial brochures spell out the bandwidths & frequency spectrums of ESM sensors like RWRs. Such ESM sensors automatically detect the radiaterd frequencies & identify them. That’s how signals intercepts are made, just like radio intercepts. Levels of noise made at various speeds at varying depths differ according to sea conditions prevailing in particular regions. There are no universal performance figures. Magnetic, electromagnetic & IR signature data is always easily obtained whenever any submarine is cruising while surfaced whenever it transits any international waterway like the Straitrs of Gibraltar or the Suez Canal or the Malacca Straits. Propeller’s acoustic signature varies according to speed & depth, again no unitary figure can account for differing speeds & depths. Periscopr usage techniques are also b y no means unitary figures that apply to all. The IN’s Scorpenes & Type 877EKMs & Class 209/Type 1500 SSKs have optronic masts from US-based L-3 KEO & not from THALES. Therefore, any data applicable to THALES-built periscope masts does not apply to the IN’s Scorpene SSKs. Therefore, like I said before, the ‘leaked’ data applies to only marketing literature & is not part of the customer-specific user-manuals.

To ARPIT KANODIA: The ‘Shaheen’ series of joint air exercises were launched after the PLAAF’s emergency airlifting of its citizens from Sudan, as I had explained it partly in the earlier threads dealing with CPEC. Over time, the exercises have grown in scope & complexity & are all part of need to expand the territorial & airspace contiguity along the China-Pak border astride the Karakoram mountain range. The interesting npart is, as I had also explained earlier, both China & Pakistan are having second thoughts about the all-weather durability of the KKH & both are now exploring an alternate route via G-B, just as I had explained earlier:

http://www.dawn.com/news/1279254/an-alternate-route-for-cpec

This westward orientation will next lead to pressure being exerted by China & Pakistan on Afghanistan for seeking unconditional & unrestricted usage of the Wakhan Corridor. That’s the long-term gameplan.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To SUBHO: At least someone sane is making educated comments, explaing further all that I had earlier:

http://www.business-standard.com/article/current-affairs/indian-navy-probes-leaked-data-of-scorpene-subs-116082400341_1.html

Vice Admiral (Retired) Arun Kumar Singh, an Indian Navy submarine veteran, explains that much of the information in the 22,400 leaked pages would be commercial information relating to the Scorpene’s operating characteristics, that DCNS would legitimately share with any navy that expressed interest in buying the Scorpene. “An operational disaster, however, would be the leakage of information relating to the sound that the Scorpene radiates into the water; or revealing the maximum depth to which the vessel can dive and fire weapons from”, says Singh. A submarine’s “audio signature” is like a fingerprint. It is unique, and allows sensors like those in maritime reconnaissance aircraft to identify individual submarines, from a bank of “signatures” that navies maintain. INS Kalvari has not yet done its “noise ranging trials”, which would pinpoint its audio fingerprint. Until these trials are completed, there is little possibility of it falling into the wrong hands.

Spykar said...

Rear Admiral (Retd.) Raja Menon clears the remaining water :

"Now we have to try and cope with and see what can be done to minimise the effects of the loss of information. There are many details of the submarine that will come out only after the trials. I don't think that information has been leaked yet. So, one can hope that as you say 100 percent information has not been leaked out so far.

It has to be seen what damage limitation can be done now. Mostly the information about the submarine warfare is tactical. Now that information you cannot leak out. So, while I heavily criticise the fact that leak has taken place at the same time one should not go overboard as to how much information has gone. There are some information, which should not go like the frequency on which the submarine is transmitting and the frequency of which is being used by the submarine as those are all normally kept classified.

It's very difficult to leak that information because they can be changed at the last minute. The security of data is a well-known subject in the Navy. There are enough rules and if those rules are observed, then leak should not occur. One really needs to observe the rules of classification of data. I don't think there requires any change in the system," he added.

http://www.business-standard.com/article/current-affairs/scorpene-leak-retired-rear-admiral-menon-asks-centre-to-minimise-effects-of-information-loss-116082400349_1.html

The Seeker said...

Sir,

7. Has the IA shown any interest for the Polaris M-RZR & DAGOR ?

8. Can C-17s take-off & land on the ALGs ?

Optional said...

Sir the article you mentioned has been authored by the veritable 'bandalbaaz'. Just mentioning.

Spykar said...

Dada,

In case you are interested, this Op-Ed Writer has conjured up an engrossing panorama of minorities in Karachi (in particular) and Pakistan in general. Some riveting JOURNALISM there :

http://www.dawn.com/authors/1869/akhtar-balouch

Spykar said...

"This westward orientation will next lead to pressure being exerted by China & Pakistan on Afghanistan for seeking unconditional & unrestricted usage of the Wakhan Corridor. That’s the long-term gameplan."

http://dunyanews.tv/en/Pakistan/347628-Pak-China-Tajik-Afghan-army-chiefs-form-regiona

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/Afghan-Taliban-team-visits-China-for-talks/articleshow/53467368.cms

Can't be a coincedence after all/

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To OPTIONAL: Of course the article was authored by the Bandalbaaz & that's why I reproduced only that section of the report that contains a direct attributable quote from a naval professional. If you read the first para itself of that that report, you will notice the bandalbaaz's own ill-conceived spin to ther story, i.e. leakage of key operational details of India’s newest submarines, the Scorpene.

The term 'operational details' relate directly to the patrol mission of the SSK. This includes the planned navigational course, speed & duration of the patrol, the type of weaponry carried on that particular patrol, & the VLF & SATCOMs comms schedules/reporting intervals. Obviously since the bandalbaaz isn;t from the navy nor has any knowledge of naval platforms, he can;t tell the difference between technical/technological details & operational details.

That's why if folks like him were to be asked if the capabilities of both Indian Type 877EKM SSKs & Vietnamese Type 636 SSKs are already compromised just because Russia has exported both these types of SSKs & their weaponry to China as well, he will be at a total loss to make any discerning or educated inference/conclusion.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To THE SEEKER: Have you seen any C-17A landing to date on any ALG in India? Or have you seen only An-32REs & C-130H-30 Super Hercules on such ALGs to date?

Anonymous said...

Hi Prasun,

Another good move by the PM

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/modi-pakistan-pok-enhanced-compensation-terror-victims/1/748273.html


Best Regards
Raj

The Seeker said...

No Sir. That's why im asking. Have you??
Silly me....Don't Know whether the runways pavement and the length on ALGs on such heights can support a C-17 flying with heavy load. But Pasighat and Thoise should have been upgraded for that(?). Though the C-17 can do short field landing and has been known to land/takeoff on dirt field.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

A really fantastic ‘BHELPURI’ of outrageously erroneous BULLSHIT aired on ZEE NEWS yesterday. Everyone was groping in the dark without the slightest clue about the real state of affairs, i.e. from where was the data leaked, for what purpose, which country was the intended beneficiary of such data & how it all ended in Australia. If only these so-called 'experts' were monitoring the SSK procurement competitions underway for the past 4 years in Indonesia & Thailand, they wouldn't have splurged out their mumbo-jumbo soundbytes. And WTF has Snowden got to do with all this???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk-Rc_lorjE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdUQMa0hFOY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6bUQi4X3oA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCN9__We2ug

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

Just as the RM had dragged the IAF to the dry-cleaners in order to justify his allegations of corruption WRT AW-101 contract, it is now the INC's turn to allege that the IN is complicit in a cover-up WRT leakage of Scorpene SSK technical data:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCnDBnqmmeo

In short, these politicians are trying to outdo one another to prove who is the bigger/greater 'Chootiya'.

Except for Rear Admiral (Ret'd) raja Menon, everyone else was uttering pure baloney in that programme, aired last night. And if follows NDTV's outlandish illogic, then the navies of both India & Vietnam now stand compromised because the PLA Navy too operates Type 877EKM & Type 636 SSKs--the same types operated by the navies of India & Vietnam. And thanks to the PLA Navy, the Pakistan Navy too will know everything there is to know about the IN's Type 877EKM SSKs!

Anonymous said...

http://www.dawn.com/news/1279639

ur critical comments on this article?

regards
Ron

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To RON: The US is echoing only what the Indian PM himself had stated. It is still too early for an indigenous independence movement to gain any traction inside Balochistan unless the Pashtuns settled in Balochistan also join the cause. And that will happen in the near future.

To ARPIT KANODIA & SPYKAR: Could it be that the DPRK's SLBM R & D effort is in fact being run as a project project for China so that China can claim plausible deniability? Is this the very same SLBM that will eventually find its way on board the projected Type 032 Qing-class submarines? Will such SLBMs be ferried by air to Pakistan in disassembled form on board the PAF's IL-78MKP transports through the contiguous Sino-Pakistani airspace over the Karakoram mountain range?

Watch this beautiful video-clip of North Korea's latest SLBM test-firing from an unwater pontoon:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRLo66ytxJI

Gessler said...

Prasun ji, check out this video of fighting in Yemen - the pathetic fun starts at around 12:50

Saudis make for incompetent soldiers, basically.

https://youtu.be/gWsUfmDV5gU

SPYKAR said...

Prasun Da,

I would like to know the answers to those questions myself. However, their interests do coincide and they sure want DPRK and Pakistan to act as a buffer state but publicly PRC has joined past UNSC resolutions against the DRPK and has openly condemned North Korea's nuclear and missile programme. Then there is the THAAD debate. Anyway I reckon that there's yet to be firm evidence to back up the claim, unless you blow the lid off.

Meanwhile, there's this :

http://ussc.edu.au/ussc/assets/media/docs/publications/1608_Australia_India_US_Alignments_Indo-Pacific.pdf

"The recent signing of ‘white shipping’ information sharing agreements between India and Australia, and India and the US might be a step towards a broader trilateral information sharing arrangement that could grow to include ‘grey shipping’ (i.e. naval shipping). Information sharing arrangements could be bolstered by sharing of facilities. The finalisation of the India-US LEMOA may ease the way for similar facilities sharing arrangements between Australia and India. Australia should be open to allowing India to use its facilities on COCOS ISLAND (once they have been extended and improved) as part of a mutual arrangement in relation to Indian facilities in the Indian Ocean."

Do you foresee any of that ?

Anonymous said...

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/any-talks-on-kashmir-must-include-pakistan-mirwaiz-umar-farooq/articleshow/53842835.cms

how powerful is this hurriyat? r they really power full enough to wage a war or staging unrest in Kashmir?


http://in.reuters.com/article/usa-kerry-india-bangladesh-idINKCN10Z2LA

any major things happening during this visit?

Regards
Ron

Spykar said...

Dada,

Seems Balochistan has now become a three way fight against Pakistan, China and Taliban. Going the same way with G-B. Does India & The 'Coalition of the Willing' hold the TRUMP CARD ? How do you see it playing out in the near future ?

Magicbullet said...

Aroor on roll today ..scaring the wits out of aam junta..bath tub with sensor can now detect scorpenes..

DAshu said...

something is fishy with current unrest in 2-3 district of J&K . I guess India knowingly created this situation to bring Baluchistan into focus . Given the high standard of desi jounos (sarcastic obviously), creating this kind of chaotic environment is very easy for GoI

Spykar said...

Bharat Karnad is hopping mad from a panic attack...demands 'full return of all monies paid' plus a 'deterrence penalty' and has labeled the Scorpenes as 'Virtual Junk' and 'Pleasure Boats' ..!! He then goes on for 'terminating' the sea trials of the first Kalavari and 'stopping of all Scorpene deliveries from MDL'... and threatens DCNS to to either get them 'modified to exacting professional standards' or 'take it back,and not deliver the second one'..

Now heads will start to loll

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To MAGICBULLET & SPYKAR: Alright, let’s put matters into perspective in point-form:

1) The DCNS oriorietary data data, running to 22,400 pages, includes 4,457 pages on underwater sensors, 4,209 pages om above-water sensors, 4,301 pages combat management systems, 493 pages on torpedo launch systems, 6,841 pages on communications systems and 2,138 on navigation systems. This data caters to the Scorpene SSK, Mistral-class LPD & Fremm-class FFGs, & NOT JUST ABOUT SCORPENE SSK ONLY. Hence very few PDF documents have been shared by THE AUSTRALIAN newspaper so far, despite the voluminous data reportably available to it.

2) Secondly, the fact that the data has been redacted indficates that the newspaper first shared it with the Australian ASIS & based upon the latter’s advice, the redaction was done.

3) Now, how did the data reach the Australian newspaper & why? This is the most interesting part, because it has NOTHING to do with DCNS’ Shortfin Barracuda design (since the RAN will go not with SUBTICS or F-21 HWTs, but with ther CMS from Lockheed Martin & HWTs from Honeywell). Apparently there was a DCNS employee (a retired officer of the French Navy) who was retrenched after the JV between DCNS & NAVANTIA was dissolved in the previous decade, with DCNS then promoting its own CM-2000 Scorpene SSK design & NAVANTIA of Spain promoting its S-80 Scorpene design. The retrenched officer reportedly became a consultant & was actively involved in promoting the S-80 Scorpene SSK for the Indonesian Navy (TNI-AL) & it was the TNI-AL that wanted comparative data for both contenders at that time (especially since neighbouring Malaysia operates two CM-2000 Scorpenes), the S-80, CM-2000, & the Class 209/Type 1400 SSK were being proposed by Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering (DSME), before making a final decision. The TNI-AL in December 2011 awarded DSME a US$1.1 billion contract for the construction of the three Class 209/Type 1500 SSKs. At around the samne time, the local Indonesian agent & the retrenched DCNS employee who were promoting the S-80 Scorpene from NAVANTIA probably got in touch with Australian authorities to promote this design for RAN. That’s how the design/performance data package data ended up in Australia & some local Asutralian consultant is the most probable source/supplier of this data to the newspaper. All this will surface in the coming days.

Now let’s turn towards the dire predictions from some ‘desi’ patrakars & self-styled security experts who are more well known for their reliance on fictional flicks of Tom Clancy for ‘enlightenment’ & who never tire of going into spectacularly outrageous meltdowns, which in turn produce comic relief to all of us quite often.

Cont’d below…

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

It seems most are alarmed about the nature of the compromised data that includes propulsion and cavitation data, acoustics at ultra-slow speed, combat system acoustics, drive turbine sound profile, shifting sonar profile during rapid dive, frequencies at snorkling and shallow depth, acoustic dynamics shift between shallow stationary float and snorkeling depth.

In the real world, all such data are programmable, i.e. only after conducting exhaustive hydo-acoustic surveys through 2 rounds of extensive sea-trials can accurate figures be gauged & they in turn are used for deriving 2 types of acoustic signatures through computer modelling: the distinctive signature & the manipulated signature. Only after this does the process of designing customer-specific acoustic rubber tiles begin. This process is known as signature management. Following this, the SSK;s lead boat goes out to sea for sea-trials during which the definitive database of the SSK’s hydro-acoustic data is generated. This then gets programmed into the servers of both the CMS & the integrated platform management system (IPMS).

Thus, based on the above explanation in layman’s terms, it is 100% guaranteed that the specs/performance parameters outlined in the PDF files disclosed by THE AUSTRALIAN newspaper pertain to the CM-2000 SSK MINUS its coating of acoustic rubber tiles & therefore poses no risk or threat to any CM-2000 Scorpene SSK of the IN. In fact, I had a conversation during DEFEXPO 2016 with the Indian OEM that makes such tiles & I was told that the IN will not place orders for such tiles unless & until the structural integrity & hydro-acoustic database of the 1st MDL-built Scorpene has been established/generated through the 1st round of sea-trials. Onlt after this will the customisation of Scorpene-specific rubber tiles & installation of additional vibration-isolators will commence & the 2nd round of sea-trials will commence & based on the results obtained, the databases of the CMS & IPMS will be further updated & refined. These final figures will be totally different from what’s today in the public domain.

So, it’s high time all the 'desi’ commentators stoped running amock like headless chicken, & instead they ought to spend more time going into the detail before reaching sound, logical conclusions.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To SPYKAR: There's firm evidence available with the US, Japan, Israel & India about China-DPRK-Pakistan collusion WRT SLBMs & the Type 032 Qing-class submarine & they will be revealed in the coming months by the powers-that-be. For now, the i8nteresting part is that while DPRK has shown visuals of the SLBMs being launched from submerged pontoons, not a single visual has emerged about its own diesel-electric submarine that will be carrying such SLBMs. One would have expected that as a matter of pride, the North Koreans would have shared some data or visuals about such a submarine as well.

To RON: Pakistan has a lot more to worry about now WRT Sindh, since that Altaf Hussain fella has gone into meltdowsn & has hurled all kinds of abuses against Pakistan during his speeches delivered in South Africa & the US & he has even asked for the US, India & Israel to intervene in those speeches. Here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNjzQlzDmw0

Spykar said...

The SLBM was lauched from the new SINPO/GOREI class Submarine. 38North north keeps a regular tab on their activities using satellite imagery. The latest :

http://38north.org/2016/08/sinpo082416/

Here are the pics of the submarine :

https://powerpolitic.wordpress.com/2016/04/24/north-korea-just-fired-a-missile-from-a-submarine/
http://www.hisutton.com/Analysis%20-%20Sinpo%20Class%20Ballistic%20Missile%20Sub.html

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To SPYKAR: Not according to the US & ROK. All the test-firings so far have been conducted from towed underwater barges, according to the US & ROK. The submarine shown in those weblinks is not single-hulled, but double-hulled as the photos clearly reveal. It has only a solitary launcher in the mast, denoting that the submarine is an experimental launch platform, since no operational submarine will ever be armed with only a solitary SLBM. At least four SLBMs will have to be carried on VLS cells, as is the case with the S-30 version of the Type 032 Qing-class submarine.

birbal said...

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To MAGICBULLET & SPYKAR: Alright, let’s put matters into perspective in point-form:

........... That’s how the design/performance data package data ended up in Australia & some local Asutralian consultant is the most probable source/supplier of this data to the newspaper. All this will surface in the coming days.

......

It seems most are alarmed about the nature of the compromised data that includes propulsion and cavitation data, acoustics at ultra-slow speed, combat system acoustics, ......

In the real world, all such data are programmable, i.e. only after conducting exhaustive hydo-acoustic surveys through 2 rounds of extensive sea-trials can accurate figures be gauged & they in turn are used for deriving 2 types of acoustic signatures through computer modelling: the distinctive signature & the manipulated signature. Only after this does the process of designing customer-specific acoustic rubber tiles begin. This process is known as signature management. Following this, the SSK;s lead boat goes out to sea for sea-trials during which the definitive database of the SSK’s hydro-acoustic data is generated. This then gets programmed into the servers of both the CMS & the integrated platform management system (IPMS).

Thus, based on the above explanation in layman’s terms, it is 100% guaranteed that the specs/performance parameters outlined in the PDF files disclosed by THE AUSTRALIAN newspaper pertain to the CM-2000 SSK MINUS its coating of acoustic rubber tiles & therefore poses no risk or threat to any CM-2000 Scorpene SSK of the IN. In fact, I had a conversation during DEFEXPO 2016 with the Indian OEM that makes such tiles & I was told that the IN will not place orders for such tiles unless & until the structural integrity & hydro-acoustic database of the 1st MDL-built Scorpene has been established/generated through the 1st round of sea-trials. Onlt after this will the customisation of Scorpene-specific rubber tiles & installation of additional vibration-isolators will commence & the 2nd round of sea-trials will commence & based on the results obtained, the databases of the CMS & IPMS will be further updated & refined. These final figures will be totally different from what’s today in the public domain."

WHAAATTT Explanation Prasunda....this i think will rest to ALL the speculations going around..
Take a BOW Prasunda, this is what i call.. Well NO Words..

Spykar said...

"Work on the launching way (i.e., ramp) and construction hall, 360 meters south of the secure boat basin, is now externally complete. The status of work inside the hall remains unclear, but when it is finished North Korea will be able to build and launch new submarines much larger than the existing GORAE-class—including a new class of ballistic missile submarines."

http://38north.org/2016/07/sinpo072016/

Subho said...

Prasun and others do read this published earlier this year on FT.com and is a good indication that Washington probably knew about this before we and the rest of the world did:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/d27f1502-cbf2-11e5-a8ef-ea66e967dd44.html#axzz4IP2FgY00

Key section of the article states "The US military is concerned that submarine maker DCNS may be more prone to technology “leakage” than contractors in competing bids, according to several people close to the situation".

They were right on.

Spykar said...

"All the test-firings so far have been conducted from towed underwater barges, according to the US & ROK"

According to who in US and RoK? ..I found nothing official from US and RoK on it so far. I guess jury is still out on that.

Spykar said...

In fact Seoul has confirmed that :

North Korea fired a submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM) off its east coast on Saturday, but the missile failed in its initial flight stage, South Korea's Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS) said.

The missile was fired from waters southeast of the coastal port city of Sinpo, South Hamgyong Province, at around 11:30 a.m., according to the military.

"The SLBM was ejected from the SUBMARINE normally, but (we) estimate the initial flight was unsuccessful," the JCS said in a brief press release.

http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/national/2016/07/09/86/0301000000AEN20160709002253315F.html

rad said...

hi prasun
your technical write up of the scorpene leaks has reassured most of us especially regarding the hydro acoustic noise characteristics. I presume the scopene is still not fitted with anechoic tiles. It is also reassuring to note t hat the rubber tiles are desi made. The real scare is that desi yellow journalism combined with a foolish decision of banning dcns may jeopardize the security of our country.
Can the composition of rubber be changed to suppress certain freq of sound like the coatings on a stealth ac?.
Is the firm exporting the tiles?, if so, then the enemy can always determine performance .Was the tech desi or collaboration ?
Like you suggested china ,pak and N korea are definitely involved in the sub launched missile and we will soon see firings from pak as well.
when will the qing class be delivered to pak?.

rad said...


hi prasun
the pics posted show pak and chink pilots in great spirits. I think we should publish pics of our pilots and israeli pilots to instill some sense into them.
What are the antenna in the front and back of the chinese awacs ? they already have a360 degree radar? what is the antenna for in the aft part of the plane?.SAR radar?.
what is the status of our emb-145 awcs ?, is the IAF happy with its perfromance?


Vijay said...

Dear Sir

If the French naval officer can GIVE this SCORPENE data to the Autralian Newspaper
then the Chinese and Pakis will ALSO like to BUY all this data from him

If all the data reaches the Chinese and the Pakis ; In that case
what will be the EFFECTS on INDIA

Arpit Kanodia said...

Sir,

That is insanity to deploy SLBM on Diesel sub, also the design you posted in April 2015 seems very unstable.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-1EUSXbb2Pzo/VTmGZQAjPJI/AAAAAAAAJQc/cWcjbpV_ZWk/s1600/S-30%2BType%2B032%2BQing-class%2BSSK-2.jpg

And how these subs patrol in Arabian Sea or Indian Ocean when whole Arabian Ocean will be filled with Indian Navy's ship. Or Pakistan Navy also planing for Bastion approach?

Also, the last time SLBM was deployed on diesel submarine was in 50s and 60s. Dont you think China and Pakistan seriously insane that even trying this?

Pierre Zorin said...

I left a piece of my mind with chief Desi Bandalbaaz. He should be court marshalled because the secrets act and public service values should continue even if he has retired. Bringing the military to disrepute when not warranted for 30 pieces of silver - or a buffet and who knows may be wanton hookers is nothing short of treason.
Australian government won't correct anything either because making fun of India just got better for the West.

Anonymous said...

as you said last time chinese built sri lankan ports are extremely dependent on indian container market and that india needs mega container ports on kerala coast, this following news proved it.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/sri-lanka-seeks-indian-investor-for-colombo-port/article9036059.ece

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-sri-lanka-port-india-idUSKCN1101WA

the article said 60% of the indian container traffic comes through sri lankan ports built by chinese.

if india builds mega container terminals on kerala coast, it will have devastating effect on the chinese investments in sri lanka.

the fast india the fast chinese and sri lankan honeymoon will be over.

sri lanka and nepal need to learn the hard facts that they need India at any cost.

these 2 countries are really small but with big egos. they want to play chinese card but ended up badly.

sri lanka will feel the financial heat in the coming years and the chinese embrace is death to them.

nepal too failed as nature supports india.

hope india will be very quick in building huge container terminal ports in the western coast so that Sri lankan cargo handling ports will be 100 % idle just like other chinese investments like ghost international airport, ghost cricket club and super high ways paved with gold (as sri lankans are saying this due to high cost in building these roads and hugh chinese debt burden they have now).

india should use diplomatic skills to high light the tragedies of chinese investment either be it in africa or asia or anywhere else using sri lanka as case study.

joydeep ghosh said...

@prasun da

1. Altaf hussain after throwing abuses has now apologized & even his party has expelled him, so i dont think it matters what he says

2. as an alternative to pellet guns the pava shells / bhoot jolokihia grandes can be handy also the skunk used by Israel on palestinians can be very useful

http://www.firstpost.com/india/from-pellet-guns-to-pava-shells-a-look-at-other-non-lethal-crowd-control-devices-2977332.html

3. suddenly everyone is silent on Kulbhushan Jadhav, why?

thanks

Joydeep Ghosh

financeblogger said...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcVZmvzW9YM

Former Pakistani airforce chief, when he stated complete facts, the treatment that has meted out to him time and again. Anyone whosoever dared to state facts in Pakistan, would meet the same fate.

End of Pakistan is near and the same has been stated by a Pakistani journalist in the video below. His heart wrenches out for Pakistan. Whoever states facts is bound to be singled out in Pakistan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeOuTsSKGNg

rad said...

hi prasun
please give us some dope on the para commando raid in myanmar , it seems it was a flop according to to the rebels becasue they were discovered by the sentreis etc . I suppose the commandos must have used thermal imagers and beats me how they were discovered first .What was the out come?

Rajesh Mishra said...

Is there a chance that China can leave Pakistan in lurch on the midway ???
- Rajesh Mishra

Vijay said...

DEAR SIR

This is the LATEST news from the Australian Newspaper ;PLEASE read this

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/its-in-the-mail-how-submarine-secrets-surfaced-in-australia/news-story/38f8f0c1d78fcbb358581cf27819acfb

This news shows that the DATA has been through MANY HANDS

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By the way The long Delays in Scorpene project TODAY looks like a Blessing in disguise

We can still take corrective actions

Spykar said...

@Prasun Da and Subho -

The 'leak' or 'hack' or to say the 'unauthorised release of information' of this nature has been going on for a while now (Something connected with 'The Australian' there!) :

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/japanese-pm-considers-call-to-malcolm-turnbull-in-attempt-to-rescue-bid-to-build-australian-subs-20160422-gocmb1.html

Also read this,

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/chinese-spies-try-to-hack-future-generation-submarine-bidders-plans/news-story/e7e7b73095119d4b9ed07b93763c85da

The Seeker said...

Sir,

In addition to my last queries;

http://www.janes.com/article/63220/rada-readies-rps-42-portable-radar-system-for-asian-customer

Who is the Asian Customer ?

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To THE SEEKER: The customer is Singapore.

To SPYKAR: Those of us in the business knew all about the availability of such documentation way back in the previous decade itself & we all have come across such technical manuals with far more data on various sub-systems. Just because a newspaper comes across it for the first tine & is unable to make any sense of it & therefore assumes them to be SECRET doesn’t make them sensitive or compromised documentation.

The visuals of the KN-11 SLBM from those websites are dated & do not show the latest launch, which was conducted in darkness & in those photos one can clearly see the SLBM launch taking place from a sheltered cove at very shallow depths of no more than 20 feet—not exactly the depth any submarine can operate & launch SLBMs from. Check out those photos I’ve uploaded above.

To VIJAY: So can I argue that since China possesses two Type 877EKM & 10 Type 636M SSKs along with the latest Russia-supplied torpedoes & 3M14E LACMs, India should therefore with immediate effect junk all its existing Type 877EKM SSKs? Should India junk the SUBTICS CMS from the Scorpene SSK just because the PN has had SUBTICS on its Agosta 90B SSKs since 1999? Should India junk its SM-39 & UGM-84A Harpoon ASCMs just because the PN too has had them since the 1980s? If the answer is YES, then I can buy all the bullshiot being peddled by the Aroors, Pubbys & Karnads. If the answer is NO, then you will have to acknowledge that what’s being spread by the ‘desi’ media is pure baloney & utter trash.

To RAD: If the raid was a flop, then why doesn’t the NSCN-K release any photo of captured Indian weapons or dead bodies of IA soldiers? The radar on the nose of the KJ-500 is a weather radar while the housing in the rear isn’t a radar, but an air-to-ground data-link suite.

To JOYDEEP GHOSH: That AH fella apologised on August 24 for his speech delivered in Pakistran via phone on August 23 & on August 24 itself he delivered another speech to his followers in the US & Canada with the same anti-Pakistan content for which he hasn’t apologised. Watch the videoclip I posted 2 days ago

To ARPIT KANODIA: SSBs with diesel-electric or AIP propulsion can launch SLBMs, but only from shallow waters close to the coastline. So if the PN wants to launch them, the Type 032 Qing-class SSBs will have to do so from the confines of coves near Ormara naval base, something similar to the ‘Bastion’ tactics of the PLAN. But I don’t see them entering service because the bworld powers will see to it that neither such SSBs nor SLBMs fall into the hands of such retards.

To SUBHO: Of course the US & even India knew about it way back in 2011 itself. If I myself knew about it long ago, then wouldn’t govts know about it? The US is more concerned about its own proprietary data falling into the wrong hgands because if the RAN specifies US-origin CMS & HWTs for its Shortfin Barracudas, then the US will have to supply proprietary data to DCNS for installation/integration purposes.

Spykar said...

Dada,

Sure, some of them are dated. The JCS of RoK has confirmed the NK-11 SLBM firing from the Submarine on the previous launch on 9 July itself.

For this launch, you can compare the sattelite imagery of launch preparations on Aug 22, with their launch preparation clips on their state TV, in Sinpo dock facility, where a large crane is unloading their SLBMs onto the Submarine,and where Kim is on inspection, sporting white trousers. And then that, with the stills of Kim after the firing took place in a triumphant mood.

http://38north.org/2016/08/sinpo082416/
https://twitter.com/JosephHDempsey/status/768726513843920896

What you stated first was, "NOT A SINGLE visual has emerged about its own diesel-electric SUBMARINE that will be carrying such SLBMs. One would have expected that as a matter of pride, the North Koreans would have SHARED some data or VISUALS about such a submarine as well." So that was that.

Then you said "ALL the test-firings SO FAR have been conducted from towed underwater barges". Certainly not for real. You can’t fake or photoshop that shit-eating grin :

http://republicbuzz.com/wp-content/uploads/39074_newtoycrop.jpg
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/83580047/north-koreas-kim-jong-un-declares-sub-missile-launch-greatest-success

Spykar said...

Dada,

Though iam not much of a UFO buff but i chanced upon these old articles :

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/10000-year-old-rock-paintings-depicting-aliens-and-UFOs-found-in-Chhattisgarh/articleshow/38435091.cms
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/weird-news/472750/nasa-investigate-Charama-cave-paintings-india-aliens-ufo-visited-earth (Whatever happened to the NASA and ISRO Investigation)

Did some more digging and found these (:

http://www.cgculture.in/PHOTOGALLERY/PhotoGalleryRockArtSitesGotitola.html
http://www.cgculture.in/PHOTOGALLERY/PhotoGalleryRockArtSitesCharama.html
http://www.cgculture.in/PHOTOGALLERY/PhotoGalleryRockArtSitesChitwaDongri.html
http://www.cgculture.in/PHOTOGALLERY/PhotoGalleryRockArtSitesPofiya.html
http://www.cgculture.in/PHOTOGALLERY/PhotoGalleryRockArtSitesMurelgarh.html

You can draw some parallels there. What they don't say is that the local mythology relate those ancient figures(10000 yrs old?) to History of God RAM. That place in Charama is itself named Sitaramguda. The region in Bastar was once (and even now) the famed Dandakaranya ('The Forest of Punishment' also 'The Forest of Rishi or some say Demon Dandaka') mentioned in the ancient texts such as Ramayana. This jungle is the scene of many of Rama and Sita's adventures in Ramayana is described as "a wilderness over which separate hermitage are scattered, while wild beasts and Rakshasas everywhere abound" and now infested by Naxalis.

Do you think all these add up? ..and can you give your informed opinion on this subject matter, along with so many of those you deal on a daily basis.

Thanks

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To SPYKAR: LoLz! Everywhere in the world, giant construction cranes are NEVER used for loading any SLBM. It is always done from fixed gantry cranes that are programmed to lower the SLBM into the silo within the submarine's pressure-hull. Why so? Obviously due to the laws of physics involving liquid-propelled rocket boosters. The South Korean CJCS is ill-equipped to jump to conclusions because the South Koreans don't have the kind of intelligence-gathering resources that the US & Japan do. As for photos released by North Korea, they & their Iranian admirers have frequently photoshopped those images that are meant for public consumption. That's the reason why till this day there exists no verifiable evidence of the DPRK having exploded any nuclear warhead, simply because no one in the world has found any atmospheric radioactive residue to prove the North Korean claims. That's why even those visuals showing the North Korean leadership sitting in front of LCD screens showing the SLBM's flight trajectory are most likely some video games of the type meant for Playstation or XBox.

Spykar said...

Oh..You mean their Nuclear weapons testing is actually a very highly advanced form of trolling and US wants in to bring THAAD just for the Lulz and their threats for levelling down South Korea are just ..threats?
...And i thought they were butthurt over their world cup loss and are going to bring down US with their Floppy Disk Technology but are meanwhile happy eneough that they might reach Japan instead ....Maybe Kim is just trying to be super awesome and gain some respect for its nuke and a space program without any World Powers being strong enough to stop them. But are you sure they wont have a working version? ..bcoz they sure are working very hard for it, or it seems so coz their 'failures' keep getting better and better.

Prav said...

@Prasun . But aren't all SLBMs solid fueled ?

Spykar said...

Dada,

On the China Front, What about he JYL-1 Long Range 3D Survellence Radar or some likely version of it seen here at the Ganbala Radar Station ...and whats the other thing that they seem to be setting up/dismantling> :

https://twitter.com/missilito/status/666551813546622977

Also, if you can enlighten us on these :

http://defence-blog.com/army/chinese-army-tests-new-battlefield-radars-to-increase-combat-capability.html

Raman said...

The Scorpene 'Leak' seems to have finally played out........and, unlike the Agusta issue - MP seems to have done much better this time.....guess he's been reading your posts !!! (lol !)

Getting back to 'normal'.......on the IAF Transport:

(1) C-17's: it does seem unlikely that they will go in for more C-17's ??
(2) C -130J's: will the 2nd Sqdn coming up at Panagarh be part of the 77th Sqdn (so with 6 a/c at Hindon and 6 a/c at Panagarh) or will a new Sqdn be raised ?? and the eventual numbers go up another 6+6....making a total of 24...(with all the ALG's coming up);
(3) C 295W's: given that the IL 114 is really getting nowhere ....will these C295's be used to eventually replace the An32/An32RE's in addition to the Avro 748's..that will lead to pretty huge numbers over the years (100++)...
(4) Do 228's: still going strong - but will eventually need to be upgraded (Do28 NG's ??)....or will some other aircraft be considered (Do 328 ??)

Gessler said...

Hi Prasun ji,

It was interesting reading in previous threads about the possibility of Agni-3s defending KSA. Meanwhile, have there been any developments wrt the sale of RISAT/GSAT 7-based satellites to the GCC together with building their Ground Control Stations?

Last time (in April I think), you said discussions were on. Any progress made on that?

Sorry I keep asking about this - it's of particular interest to me.

Thanks in advance!

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

o SPYKAR: According to you perhaps THAAD's introduction in the Far East may be a consequence of North Korea's nuclear WMD-related activities, but in reality THAAD & Arrow-3 were sought & obtained by Japan & ROK the moment DPRK began test-firing its IRBMs & MRBMs out to the East Sea since the previous decade. TMD or BMD is not nuclear-specific. The threat of ballistic missiles being used as terror weapons against densely populated civilian areas has always been there since the early 1980s when they were tried out by both Iraq & Iran. Nor is there any credible, demonstrable evidence of the DPRK crossing the nuclear threshold & actually exploding a nuclear warhead to date.

As for radars in TAR, OTH-B radars are used mostly for long-range sea surveillance. China already possesses one experimental PAR installation facing Taiwan & will therefore not invest in OTH-B radars for large-volume airspace surveillance over land. The long-range 3-D radars being used in TAR are all JL-3D-90As & Type 440E/YLC-2As. JYL-1s are meant primarily for export.

The vehicle-mounted battlefield surveillance radars with accompanying optronic sensors are meant for target search/acquisition for the AFT-10/CM-501G fibre-optic wire-guided NLOS-ATGMs on ZBD-08 tracked carriers that are earmarked primarily for use in the Central Asian grasslands.

Tp PRAV: Are they? Check out the Soviet-era SLBMs & analyse the photos & video-clips of the KN-11's exhaust flames & then compare them with those of the Nodong-1/Ghauri-1 & Prithvi NLOS-BSMs.

Spykar said...

Prasun Da, When i listen to music i dance. So does US, and Korea:
http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/propagangdam-style.jpg

WRT the SLBM's fuel, examine these :
https://twitter.com/DaveSchmerler/status/768642125139365888

You can also compare the exhaust plumes from their recent Solid-fuel engine testing with the latest firing, :
http://38north.org/2016/04/jschilling042516/

Also check these ,
https://www.nknews.org/pro/north-koreas-solid-punch/
http://www.b14643.de/Spacerockets/Specials/Bukkeukseong-SLBM/index.htm

Though i am not saying that they necessarily mean anything but they APPEAR to be developing a two-stage solid-fuelled SLBM. And its very obvious that they are not toying.

Spykar said...

Also you said "In reality THAAD & Arrow-3 were sought & obtained by Japan & ROK the moment DPRK began test-firing its IRBMs & MRBMs out to the East Sea since the previous decade"

In that case are you sure "those visuals showing the North Korean leadership sitting in front of LCD screens showing the SLBM's flight trajectory are most likely some video games of the type meant for Playstation or XBox." ...?

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To SPYKAR: The DPRK knows too well that solid-fuelled BMs are always superior to their liquid-fuelled counterparts & they have already developed solid-fuelled BMs since 2010 & the Ghadr-F solid-fuel IRBM & Sejjil-2 solid-fuel MRBM have both been developed by DPRK for Iran. But developing solid-fuelled SLBMs is another ballgame altogether since the missile is shorter, stubbier, & requires a solid rocket booster that is jettisoned soon after the missile reaches the water surface, just like the K-15/K-4 SLBMs of India. When fired from a SSB it is this booster that provides the initial lift to the SLBM while minimising the neutral buoyancy demands placed on the SSB. With larger displacement SSBNs the SLBM can do away with this expendable rocket booster, but definitely not in case of SSBs. Hence, while the North Korean SLBM has an expendable solid-propellant booster, the second-stage propulsion is liquid-fuelled . The 3rd stage with the re-entry vehicle inclusive of the warhead has not yet been tested as yet & therefore it remains to be seen if it will be a manoeuvrable re-entry vehicle using solid propellant or liquid propellant. Until then, it will be futile to draw any firm conclusions as some of those websites are doing, while at the same time totally forgetting about the Soviet-era design origins & design features of such missiles. The same goes for China as well & consequently the JL-2 SLBMs too are facing severe technological hurdles & hence till to date these SLBMs haven't been shown in any public PLA parade.

To GESSLER: The negotiations are still going on because the UAE wants SATCOM & data-relay encryption systems from Germany to be part of GSAT-7-type satellite. Interestingly, I was just going through some of my photo archives & there I came across come photos of Israel's Jericho-2 MRBM TELs (that were originally developed by RAFAEL with French assistance) that bear more than a striking resemblance to the electro-hydraulic erector/launcher mechanism of the Shaurya TBM!

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To RAMAN: The Scorpene leaks were non-stories from Day-1 itself & now the former French Navy officer has started distributing video-clips on social media with his own version of events! Meanwhile the 'desi' media will from next week ressurect the Sheena Bora murder case & beat it to pulp. Yes, everyone's quiet on the AW-101 front because there's no more dirt available to dig up, as I had always maintained. As for the C-295, it really isn't reqd since the An-32RE can soldier on without any problem for another 40 years. Several other An-32 operators are also using them without any problem, like Bangladesh, Sri Lanka & even Afghanistan. The IL-214 MRTA programme can easily be resurrected by going for CFM56 turbofans & developing its civilian variant for passenger/air cargo transportation. The Do-228NG is a wholly new aircraft as far as its airworthiness certification goes & it makes use of the Do-228-212 airframe, whereas all HAL-built airframes are of the Do-228-201 standard. The IN & IAF therefore want to retain the basic Do-228-201 airframe but want selective upgrades like a higher-thrust version of the Honeywell TPE331 turboprop engine, new-generation propellers & a glass cockpit sourced from Canada's CMC Corp.

Spykar said...

"The DPRK knows too well that solid-fuelled BMs are always superior to their liquid-fuelled counterparts & they have already developed solid-fuelled BMs since 2010 & the Ghadr-F solid-fuel IRBM & Sejjil-2 solid-fuel MRBM have both been developed by DPRK for Iran."

You mean DPRK which is STILL perusing a solid fuelled MRBM (Except the KN-02 which is an SRBM) and have just only recently test firing their solid motor capable enough for BMs, and are yet to operationally switch on to solid fuel, DEVELOPED them for Iran since 2010 ..? But How ?

Spykar said...

http://missilethreat.com/missiles/sejil-123/

http://38north.org/2016/03/jschilling032916/

Spykar said...

"The long-range 3-D radars being used in TAR are all JL-3D-90As & Type 440E/YLC-2As. JYL-1s are meant primarily for export."

Then what was that JYL-1 doing there? ...Plus, whats this doing in Depsang(?)

https://twitter.com/rajfortyseven/status/731354065620209664

Spykar said...

Dada,

One more confusion,

You sais "Developing solid-fuelled SLBMs is another ballgame altogether since the missile is shorter, stubbier, & requires a solid rocket booster that is jettisoned soon after the missile reaches the water surface, just like the K-15/K-4 SLBMs of India."

I thought a high-pressure gas-booster (and not a solid rocket booster) is used for providing the initial lift to propel the SLBM to the water surface and then jettisoned. Just like in the K-15/K-4 and, as i construe to be the case, with KN-11 SLBMs. Then comes the ignition of the solid/liquid fuel part.

Spykar said...

"The Do-228NG is a wholly new aircraft as far as its airworthiness certification goes & it makes use of the Do-228-212 airframe, whereas all HAL-built airframes are of the Do-228-201 standard."

Read this :

http://www.indiastrategic.in/HAL_Exports_Structural_Assemblies_of_Dornier_228_NG_Ahead_of_Schedule_to_RUAG.htm

The Seeker said...

Sir, does India employ any OTH-B radars for long-range sea surveillance ?

Prav said...

Oh I have no doubt that liquid fueled SLBMs exist . Given the maintenance and logistical headaches that liquid fueled missiles are (moreso if they need to be stored within the hull of submarines ) , Im just surprised that anyone would go down this route for a "new" missile.

Magicbullet said...

Sir...what are the weapon systems that are named parlay . Prakop .prahaar. pragati..shourya.and which of these are in inducted.

Arpit Kanodia said...

@Prav if one can deploy S-30 (just check the design of that subfrom PKS's old thread). Then liquid fuel SLBM is just an easy job.

Spykar said...

"Everywhere in the world, giant construction cranes are NEVER used for loading any SLBM. It is always done from fixed gantry cranes that are programmed to lower the SLBM into the silo within the submarine's pressure-hull. Why so? Obviously due to the laws of physics involving liquid-propelled rocket boosters"

I think Chinese and the North Koreans don't care what the rest of the world is gung-ho about :

http://fas.org/nuke/guide/china/facility/slbm.htm

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To SPYKAR: How? Because a land-launched BM does not require the kind of short expendable booster that SLBMs & cruise missiles require. The very same expendable/jettisionable booster on BrahMos-1 & Nirbhay also appears on K-15 SLBM & one can see it clearly in images of the Shaurya land-launched version of this SLBM. On Soviet/Russia-designed sub-launched ballistic & cruise missiles, pressurised ejection mechanism is ONLY meant for ejecting the missile from the vertical/slant launch silo. Thereafter, for propelling the missile to the surface, an expendable/jettisionable booster is read & all videos of the K-15 SLBM launched from underwater clearly show it. Same goes for the sub-launched BrahMos-1 & Nirbhay LACM & 3M-14E LACM & its Kalibre version.

Those are not depictions of UFOs, but flying discs whose propulsion technologies & the physics behind them are all well-known & validated through the science of electro-gravitics. Their industrial patents were sought & obtained in the US in the 1950s itself & they all benefited a lot from R & D work done in the 1930s in Nazi Germany.

You are ASSUMING that the radar is a JYL-1. Just as you’re ASSUMING that the installation at Depsang is housing a radar, just because some clown/joker with no knowledge of physics says so. JYL-1 is a 2-D tactical gapfiller radar & therefore only an idiot will position it atop a dominating feature like a mountain-top overlooking a plateau. Long-range airspace surveillance radars for ADIZ monitoring are deployed atop mountains, while gapfiller radars are positioned in valleys where hostile combat aircraft resort to terrain-masking to avoid being uncovered & tracked. Now, turning to this clown/joker, he used to frequent this blog till November 2014 when he & his idiotic conclusions got exposed & that’s when he stopped commenting. Examples of his idiotic claims include: positioning of OTHR on a reclaimed island in SCS, when in reality that is an JY-27A airspace surveillance radar. Why should China deploy any OTHR on an island when its OTHRs on the mainland itself have a 3,000km-range? Similarly, any radar station will always require large amounts of electrical power & operating/support personnel that will call for permanent structures to be built around the radar station for accommodation purposes. In addition, pits for deploying AAA assets will be seen. Do any of these appear at that site in Depsang? Those installations are therefore ALL remotely-operated, passive SIGINT/ELINT stations that one can see with the naked eye all the way from Depsang through to Bum la & right up to Walong & the network is called SMART GUARD. I have not only seen a few of them at their actual sites, but have also seen what sensors are used & I also have their technical manuals which, according to the ignorant ‘desi’ journalists, would all be TOP SECRET.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To THE SEEKER: Not yet.

To MAGICBULLET: Those are all technology demonstrators & none of them have been inducted into service.

To PRAV: It all depends on whether one's survivable sea-based nuclear deterrent is always on a ready-to-launch deployment mode or in a recessed mode. In case of the former, solid-fuelled SLBMs will be the only choice, whereas for the latter, liquid-fuelled SLBMs will be the cheaper option because the 2nd/terminal stage carrying the warhead itself can be made manoeuvrable through the usage of thrust-vectoring control vanes. For solid-fuelled SLBMs each of the MIRVs will incorporate both a terminal SAR seeker as well as manoeuvrable solid propellant rocket nozzles.

To SPYKAR: RUAG Aerospace had contracted BOTH HAL & TAML to supply such sub-assemblies & eventually TATA was selected & HAL was rejected. Final airworthiness certification responsibility rests with the IPR-owner of the airframe designer & final-assembler, & not with sub-contractors.

prashant said...

sir,
could u do a piece on kashmir's current situation..the violence this time is totally out of control.
How much of kashmir is actually burning..out of the aprrox 1 lakh sq km of Indian kashmir's territory ?
how much population is actually protesting ?..why do they want freedom ? from whom ?

what i have observed in social media..all resourceful kashmiri's have their children studying, working in indian cities or abroad..many of them study abroad on indian taxpayer's doles..
thousands of crores of our money if poured on these people..& in kashmir..yet these ungrateful idiots comment on FB as if indians are an occupation people.
how easily these bastards forget our help during natural calamities..our money invested in kashmir,,our sacrifices..
it boils my blood to see such people in our midst..bloody, have no self respect..
they study in our schools, colleges, work in our industry, get our scholarship money for higher education, buy plush homes here & then abuse us..the very same people who have accepted them.
hell, these muslim kashmiris never say a word on exiled kashmiri pandits, or the thousands on security forces injured..probably it doesn't suit there leftist, liberal fabric.

I want to know what is the proportion of such people out of kashmiri population..do u know how many such people might be living in our cities ?
& if they want azaadi so bad..then why dont we free them..throw these people out of our country, take awar their ID documents..they can sell their properties & leave our country for good.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To SPYKAR: LoLz! That visual clearly shows a FIXED gantry crane (& not a mobile construction crane) lowering the SLBM on to the Type 092 Xia-xlass SSBN. Nowadays, such cranes mounted on rails (syncrolifts) are used within underground tunnels at the PLAN's SSBN bases.

To PRASHANT: How can only some towns located in 3 districts of J & K account for the 'whole of Kashmir'? And most of the 'desi' broadcast TV channels show only the rioting mobs in downtown Srinagar's Lal Chowk. No one else has so far shown any visuals of any such violence taking place in any other parts of J & K. What the folks of J & K want is 'Azaadi' from the intrusive checks that are repeated within a very small confined area & this has been going on for years. Naturally a siege mentality will develop along with a highly stressful environment. How would you like if you were told to produce your identity documentation every few hundred metres or even once every 1 km? Now imagine this being repeated day in & day out for the past 26 years. Would you in such an environment still be a normal person? Just visit any one of the Aero India expos & just to get to the main expo site you will have to get past 2 to 3 inspection posts where you are repeatedly physically frisked & your identity documents are inspected--when this is nothing but repetition that only increases irritation & dehumanises a human being's dignity. If people can lose their tempers during just these 3 days of a trade show due to such nonsensical & wasteful security checks, thern just imagine what those natives of J & K have had to undergo for the past 26 years!! It is 'Azaadi' from all this that the folks there are crying out against. And successive Govts of India have repeatedly failed to adress these cries by ensuring that such intrusive security checks are done away with by ensuring that Pakistan pays a heavy price for formenting trouble inside J & both ouvertly & covertly. Govts since the 1990s have repeatedly failed to take decisive politico-military steps reqd to make Pakistan bleed profusely. Consequently, the emboldened PA today thinks that the IA is too preoccupied & happy with COIN operations & is incapable of launching even limited offensive campaigns. And the greatest Indian handicap is that India's civilian political decision-makers have no understanding of hard military power & its selective applications. That's why the IA & IAF were prevented from crossding the LoC in mid-1999, & the military option wasn't exercised during the hijack of IC-814 in December 1999 & again during OP Parakram in early 2002 & yet again in November 2008.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To PRASHANT: If proof of the pudding lies in its eating, then the Govt of India should have ensured since the 1990s itself that there was ZERO tolerance for the loss of innocent civilian lives & forceful eviction of the Pandits from the Kashmir Valley of J & K. This could have been amply demonstrated had the OP-PLANs of Gens V N Sharma & S F Rodrigues been approved for execution. Then the enemy would have bled most when it hurt the most & the desired results would have been obtained. Instead, the ruling elite at that time & since that time have mysteriously ASSUMED against all international laws that the LoC that was demarcated on maps in 1972 was the de-facto border that was never to be crossed. And in making such an erroneous assumption, India also surrendered its legal right to PoK in all international fora when, in reality, since 1972 itself the Indian Parliament should have reserved some seats for representatives of PoK in the Lok & Rajya Sabhas, even if the representatives had sought political asylum elsewhere in the world. And their succeeding generations should have been granted scholarships to study in various Indian academic institutions & also be issued Indian identity papers for Indian citizenship. That way, India has historically failed the residents of PoK & by consequence, also the residents of J & K state. Herculean steps are now consequently reqd to undo this wrong.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To ARPIT KANODIA: Now the Chinese are getting defensive:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Chinese-scholars-deeply-disturbed-by-PM-Modis-reference-to-Balochistan/articleshow/53900481.cms

Little do these civilian 'think-tanks' know that since 2009 itself China had started issuing stapled visas to Indian citizens hailing from J & K & had even officially declared that the LAC's length was only 2,000km & not 4,057km because Beijing never considered J & K to be a part of India! And now these think-tanks/scholars are claiming that China is also a party to the J & K dispute & wants tripartite talks! When I recently confronted one such Chinese 'scholar' he claimed innocence by stating that he wasn't aware of the shortening of the LAC's length & when I showed him the PLA's official statement to this effect, he claimed innocence by saying that such matters could well have been decided by the Central Military Commission without the Chinese Foreign Ministry's knowledge. In short, there's no dearth of excuses from these think-tanks/scholars to feign ignorance of ground realities when they're squarely confronted. Same goes for the military component of the CPEC: when I asked them why they initiated the military component FIRST (by first guaranteeing the supply of a survivable sea-based nuclear deterrent for the PN at Ormara way back in 2004 & later commencing the Shaheen series of joint air exercises in 2011 way before the official unveilling of the CPEC's economic dimensions), these 'scholars' were at a total loss to find credible explanations.

Now watch this highly interesting & amusing interview given 2 days ago by the Iranian Ambassador to Pakistan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lt1HWdhujvI

I especially like the way he squarely answers why Iran does not wish to get entangled with the J & K issue & with the Kulbhushan Jadhav issue, despite persistent questioning by the Pakistani interviewer.

Vivek said...

Prasun da,

Head of Iran national security council is in Delhi and met Doval and Modi
Also Bugti's grandsons interview shown on DD yesterday
And all the talk now of calling representatives from Pok (incl Gilgit) and Baluchistan on Pravasi bhartiya divas

Help us understand the complete picture

Rgds
Vivek

prashant said...

sir, thank u for your answer..i wrote my previous comment in a fit of rage, I apologise.
I failed to mention the suffering of kashmiri people in my comment..i know how frustrating it is to be frisked at malls, theatres etc.
I agree the local population has suffered enough, but, these people, i think, want a separate nation, & their offspring living in our midst echo the same sentiment..these people being educated on our expense, without an iota of shame throng to army camps for help during disasters, then these people target the same security forces when it suits them.

Chit bhi mera, patt bhi mera aur sikka mere baap ka..this hindi idiom is what comes to mind.

anyway, is it possibel that u do a small piece explaining the current situation clearly & how it can be brought under control..how can we put an end to this nuisance for once & for all.
& are there steps being taken now to allocate parliament seats for PoK ?
Govt recently brought a scheme where Pok residents can claim money for terrorists attacks..i think its a start..
do u think the current govt would move on VN sharma's & SF Rodrigues's plans ?
especially when we have a strong PM.

& last thing, there is news that JK Governor is being shunted out..one of the name's doing the rounds, for replacement, is of Lt. Gen. Syed ata hasnain (retd)..i think he is a very competitive man, very experienced, he can surely make a difference...what is your take ?
have u ever interacted with him ? do u think, of selected, he will prove to be an asset ?

what are the pros & cons of appointing him ?
what other name should the govt. consider ?

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To VIVEK: The BIG PICTURE can be obtained by witnessing the sequencing of events in chronological order:

1) India commencing supplies of major weaponry to Afghanistan & training ASF personnel in larger numbers per annum, starting last year.

2) Commencement of the Chah Bahar FTIZ project for ensuring port connectivity for land-locked Central Asian countries.

3) Pakistan spurning Afghanistan by making it difficult for Afghan transit-trade through Karachi & Afghanistan retaliating by reducing imports from Pakistan of vital perishables like wheat flour by 60%.

4) Pakistan spurning Iran by refusing to construct its share of the IP gas pipeline under Saudi pressure.

5) Iran's increasing concern over Sunni radicalism from Pakistan spreading to northern Afghanistan where Shia Hazaras are located.

6) India's concern over Pakistan-supported Sunni radicalism spreading in border towns in southern & central J & K.

7) Iran's decision to raise an expeditionary 'liberation' land force comprising Afghan refugees based inside Iran for helping the ASF combat the Pakistan-supported Afghan Taliban & LeT that are operating inside Afghanistan out of safe sanctuaries located in Balochistan.

8) China's decision to cling to the military dimension of CPEC (as I explained above) that will pose a clear existential threat to Iran.

Due to all of the above, both Iran & India see eye-to-eye on issues like Pakistan's denuclearisation, strengthening the ASF to take on the PA's 'sarkari jihadis' head-on, & increasing pressure on the PA by resorting to artillery fire-assaults across both the LoC & the Iran-Pakistan border.

So, come next month & at New York in the UN General Assembly the trio of Afghanistan, Bangladesh & India will launch a coordinated assault against Pakistan's human rights violations in Balochistan, FATA (which has led to 2 lakh houses being destroyed & 11 lakh people being displaced & another 3.5 lakh Pakistani Pashtuns fleeing to Afghanistan as refugees) & PoK. On top of this, Bangladesh will most probably announcing the setting up of a war crimes tribunal for bringing to justice all those from the PA who were involved in atrocities inside East Pakistan from 1969 till late 1971. The Baloch diaspora too will ask for another such tribunal under UN auspices for trying all those PA & FC personnel who indulged in atrocities during the four Baloch insurgencies since 1948.

Lastly, WRT this:

http://www.tehrantimes.com/news/405810/Tehran-seeking-troika-with-India-Russia-as-bulwark-against-terrorism

This chap Ali Shamkhani is a super heavyweight from the Pasdaran (IRGC) who had made a name for himself during the Iran-Iraq war of the 1980s & was a previous Defence Minister as well. He definitely wants Indian industrial help & expertise WRT the IRIAF's projected acquisition of almost 80 Su-30MK2s (with NO-11M 'Bars' PESA-MMR). Iran wants to send its IRIAF pilot instructors to India to undergo flight conversion & companies like HAL & BEML to supply various types of ground-support hardware.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To PRASHANT: LoLz! Never jump to conclusions in a fit of impulsiveness. Always take the time to reflect, introspect & only then arrive at an inference. For every 1 Muslim person hailing from J & K who chants anti-India slogans at JNU & elsewhere, there are 100 who don't. And yet, despite their psychological stress, they have also been suffering from economic disenchantment. For instance, the Valley's youth no longer have the chance to seek employment in the Middle East due to the low oil prices & reduced economic growth within the GCC member-states. This then forces them to seek employment locally, but there aren't jobs available for them because most of the local infrastructure development works like building of public utilities at the district-level & town council-level cannot be undertaken, since the locally elected Sarpanches & Tehsildars have since 2011 been systematically assassinated by Pakistan-origin hit-squads. Consequently, allocated funds from the Centre & State don't get spent due to the absence of the approving authorities (Sarpanches & Tehsildars) & this in turn has created administrative paralysis & all this has resulted in local joblessness. Naturally therefore, there will be discontent & turmoil & all this was building up since 2011 itself, but the UPA-2 turned a blind eye to such realities. To break free of such Pakistan-sponsored & APHC-endorsed economic strangulation, there's only 1 way: go on the offensive & make Pakistan pay dearly.

Lt Gen (Ret'd) Syed Atta Hasnain should have been made the Governor a long time ago, in late 2014 itself. He is a reputation for being pro-active & can therefore easily win hearts & minds, just as he had done when he was the GOC of XV 'Chinar' Corps in J & K.

Spykar said...

Dada,

You said "Those are not depictions of UFOs, but flying discs whose propulsion technologies & the physics behind them are all well-known & validated through the science of electro-gravitics. Their industrial patents were sought & obtained in the US in the 1950s itself & they all benefited a lot from R & D work done in the 1930s in Nazi Germany"

That explains a lot. Are there any similar ancient depictions of those flying discs or vimanas that you know of in our subcontinent ..? Does our Govt know the technologies and the physics behind them and have they conducted any R&D work on them so far..?

Spykar said...

Dada,

you said "Pakistan is spurning Iran by refusing to construct its share of the IP gas pipeline under Saudi pressure."

Will the subsea option by totally bypassing Pakistan ever materialize now that Chabahar has been fast tracked? Also, media report says Saudi is financing the TAPI pipelile through IDB and there seems to be a lot of progress on the TAPI.

Aditya said...

Prasunda,
if all goes as planned and there is no Pakistan by 2019
Would that mean downsizing of the Indian army to a much smaller force of 6 to 8 lakh active personal or will we just re balance the forces from west to east?

Spykar said...

Dada, can you do an in-depth piece on the Great Game going on in Central Asia ...and the way India is playing its hand..?

Anonymous said...

Hi Prasun,

Will China get involved in the Balochistan crisis? IF so, what can they do?

http://idrw.org/china-will-get-involved-if-india-foments-trouble-in-balochistan-chinese-think-tank/


Best Regards
Raj

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To RAJ: They're already involved, they have been since 2004 & their civilian contractors have been targetted by the Baloch separatists for this very reason since 2004. That's why the Chinese are pananoid enough to demand that the entire Gwadar port installation & airport be totally fenced & multiple overlapping perimeter intrusion sensors be deployed. So now China has two options: either carry on as usual & take on the combined might of North America, the EU, India, Iran, Afghanistan, Japan, ROK, Taiwan & Australia; or find sanity in terms of acknowledging that PoK is an integral part of India. If not, then India will raise the ante by claiming parts of TAR & Xinjiang by stating that just like China has played the card of 'civilisational state', i.e. finding archaeological relics of past Chinese settlements/maritime voyages in the SCS in order to justify its arbitrary Nine-Dash Line, India too use that very same argument to extend her territorial claims. The Chinese obviously know that they are in a bind with almost no room for any manoeuvre whatsoever. At least that's what I made it all well-known to some of the visiting Chinese 'scholars/think-tanks/academicians'. You can well imagine the sorry, puppy-dog-like expressions on their faces when I laid it out for them in great detail.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To ADITYA: There will still be a Pakistan, but a much smaller territorial entity. India's armed forces thereafter won't be downsized, but will have to be force-structured in far more meaningful manner, since a larger territorial mass will have to be defended by India's armed forces, along with greater regional responsibilities.

To SPYKAR: In-depth analysis of the Great Game? Why? It's already all explained above in point-form WRT the big picture & where matters are headed. My inferences & conclusions are based purely on prevailing ground realities, plus analysis of the mindsets of various players. They are by no means any prophecy since I am no prophet.

Ganesh said...

Hello Prasun, any work on replenishment of war wastage reserves in totality with regard to the requirements, terrain and future contingencies. Was there sabotage that was the reason for fire in storage dump in central India. I understand the common theme was old shells and faulty, leaking and being stored beyond expiry dates. I ask because during massing of troops in 2001 the news was blasts and fire in private trucks carrying ammunition

Spykar said...

Because China has suddenly turned PROACTIVE and has made a lot of inroads in the present 'ground realities'. Along with deepening their 'ALL-WEATHER' friendship wit Pak, they have set up an 'ANTI-TERRORISM' alliance with Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Tajikistan; they have also JOINED Russia & Iran in Syria while trying to MEDIATE(Read DOUBLE GAME) between Kabul and the Taliban; their 'CARGO' train is headed towards Afghanistan and their companies has won contracts for the TAPI pipeline among other things.

Spykar said...

Also why 'REDACT' one of my earlier comment Prasun da. Did I say something that would have compromised some sensitive/classified information or something someone would like to keep secret?

Anonymous said...

Hi Prasun,

Thanks for answering my query. Ii would be quite educational if you could share details of the discussion you had with the Chinese regarding India civilizations connect with Tibet and Xinjiang.


Best Regards
Raj

The Seeker said...

Does 'Not yet' mean.... that India has some plans to deploy any OTHR for sea surveillance in future ?? Can we buy it off-the-shelf or is there any inhouse work going on for OTH radars in India ??? Is India even considering such a system because only 1 such system having such a range, can cover the entire pakistani airspace and couple more can cover the IOR.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To THE SEEKER: had already discussed OTHRs for IN in the thread dealing with Project Varsha, S-2/Arihant & the SOSUS-based seabed surveillance system.

To RAJ: It wasn't a discussion, rather more about making a point to them about "do as I do instead of do as I say". In other words, they cannot say that certain rules of the game apply only to themselves & to the exclusion of others. If they set a precedent, then they should be able to accept that others will follow suit along the same path.

To SPYKAR: What cargo train to Afghanistan? Where are the railroad tracks? What TAPI pipeline? How far has the pipeline being laid out? IA & PLA have been having counter-terror exercises since the previous decade in each other's country.

You're ASSUMING that I deleted your comment. Actually, it may have been Google's Spam-isolator software in PRO-ACTIVE play. Suggest you get friendlier with Google.

To GANESH: It seems sanity is making a slow comeback within the popular discourses:

http://indianexpress.com/article/explained/scorpene-leal-submarines-documents-data-leak-manohar-parrikar-indian-navy-3001106/

http://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/columns/scorpene-leak-india-submarine-navy-3000928/

Spykar said...

4) "What cargo train to Afghanistan?"

http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/chinas-first-cargo-train-to-afghanistan-fuels-one-belt-one-road-obor-engine/article9042851.ece

5) "What TAPI pipeline? How far has the pipeline being laid out?"

They are planning to lay it out with chinese help :

http://tribune.com.pk/story/1169388/energy-supplies-japan-china-companies-win-contracts-tapi-project/
http://nation.com.pk/business/27-Aug-2016/management-consultants-for-tapi-being-shortlisted-today

6) "IA & PLA have been having counter-terror exercises since the previous decade in each other's country."

Yes just exercises and high level meetings but i take it that we don't have any credible intelligence sharing mechanisms and agreement or even a broad consensus on counter-terrorism like they just had with the QCCM (which was clearly evident when Beijing blocked New Delhi’s efforts to designate Mazood Azhar as 'terrorist') as we are yet to renew and expand our decade-old counter-terrorism pact.

Spykar said...

Google knows it Prasun da.

The Seeker said...

Sir, On OTHs you said back in 2012 that DRDO is already working on this front with Raytheon. Any progress made so far? When do you see it will get operationalized ? Also I hope to get some answers this time. Been carrying these questions since last thread.

1. What are the best solutions for LSV/LAMVs? Has the IA shown any interest for the Polaris M-RZR & DAGOR ?

2. What defence sector products are the Pakis and the Turkis collaborating on? ..and will there be further cooperation between them in Warship building and for the TFX programme?

3. HAL's Tumkuru facility is meant for which helicopter?

4. What is the status of the HAL medium-lift helicopter ?

5. Can you decrypt the GTRE's RFI for 130kn Aero Gas Turbine engine?

6. Can C-17s take-off & land on the ALGs ?

Spykar said...

Prasun Da,

They also seem to be of the same opinion that the KN-11 SLBM is a a two-stage, solid-fueled ballistic missile; they also make some interesting points on the deployment of THAAD :

http://www.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/1201857/kn-11-and-thaad/

If you differ, kindly explain how & why.

You also said back a while that "In reality THAAD & Arrow-3 were sought & obtained by Japan & ROK the moment DPRK began test-firing its IRBMs & MRBMs out to the East Sea since the previous decade"

Can you substantiate that with something solid ? ..because it's just last month Seoul and Washington decided to place THAAD on RoK (by the end of 2017) and hasnt been able to pick deployment sites due to local protests inside RoK, while Japan is still 'considering' such a step.

Even the US MDA states otherwise :

https://www.mda.mil/system/international_cooperation.html

ludwig said...

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/india-us-to-discuss-jet-engine-technology/287002.html,
Any Idea sir, what kind of collaboration will take place?

The Seeker said...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37212009

Does it have any link with the Chinese man who pleaded guilty to cyber spying on Boeing and other U.S. firms OR the woman convicted in Florida of conspiring to evade export laws by illegally acquiring and sending fighter jet engines and drones to China, according to the US Dept. of Justice? ...Prosecutors said the woman was working with an associate in China to buy and export engines made by Pratt & Whitney and General Electric, which are found in a range of top U.S. military aircraft, including the F-35, F-22 and F-16 fighter jets.

What are they launching now? A surprise?

Rajesh Mishra said...

It seems that Gazwat-ul-Hind will not happen on the India but on the ancient integral part of the India that is now being called as Pakistan666.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To SPYKAR: That report states "appear to be", i.e. speculation. My explanations & the photo of the pre-dawn launch of the SLBM clearly shows the SLBM's exhaust flame minus any trailing plumes associated with solid-fuelled rockets, i.e. exactly like that of a Prithvi liquid-fuelled NLOS-BSM. All video-clips of the SLBM's various test-launches show the same.

As for THAAD, before permanent deployments are made, emergency temporary deployments are always made first to test suitability, deployment patterns & logistics-related issues. This is the SOP followed everywhere.

sbm said...

I am hearing rumours that:

1) India is very interested in THAAD.

2) 36 Agni-2 and 36 Agni-1 are in service with 12 of each assembled and mated with warheads. Rest demated and partly disassembled.

3) Agni-4 replacing Agni-2 in production with LSP in progress - 8 produced so far.

Anything close to true here ?

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To SBM: LoLz! If you have already classified them as 'rumours', then what's the use of drawing inferences from them? If on the other hand you have come across such reports & would like to authenticate their veracity, then certain observations can be offered.

1) Anyone seriously interested in TMD/BMD will always veer towards a solution that not only offers kinetic 'hittile' solutions, but the all-important early warning & data fusion elements of a comprehensive TMD/BMD command-and-control system. Do the Russians have such a comprehensive & proven solution to offer? No, not yet. Does the US have it? Yes, & that's why countries like the UAE which enjoys equally good military-industrial relations with both Russia & the US, has opted for THAAD & not the S-400. And I have no doubt that the IAF's professionals too will reach a similar conclusion, a point I had made earlier in a previous thread dealing with the S-400 versus THAAD debate last year.

2) The arsenals of India's strategic nuclear deterrent are never kept in fully assembled & mated state. There's simply no need to. They are all in recessed (semi-assembled) state & full integration cxan be done within 48 to 72 hours. The reserves are in knocked-down state that canm be assembled in less than 2 weeks.

3) That's something I had confirmed some 4 years ago. The number therefore should be more than 8.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

The 'desi' retards have ASSUMED that anything to do with Lockheed Martin has to do with combat aircraft & therefore therefore published this trash & have even got the name of the Indian company WRONG:

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/light-combat-aircraft-manufacturing-facility-to-come-up-in-andhra-pradesh/articleshow/53794666.cms

In reality, the company is VEM, & not WEM. And the tie-up with Lockheed Martin is for co-production of the aerostat-mounted LREO sensor:

http://www.vemtechnologies.com/RFMicrowave1.html

Spykar said...

Meanwhile the Security Wise Bharat Karnad has upped the ante on the Scorpenes now he wants :

"To make it amply clear India means business, Delhi should recall its ambassador, ask Paris to withdraw its envoy, and if satisfaction is not forthcoming especially on financial restitution, the promise of more serious actions to follow..."

...and that would be banning French fries, French toast, french tickler and french kiss

Thehundered said...

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/home-made-submarines-cheaper-than-those-built-with-foreign-technology/articleshow/53919022.cms

Spykar said...

Dada,

You said "My explanations & the photo of the pre-dawn launch of the ( NK-11 ) SLBM clearly shows the SLBM's exhaust flame minus any trailing plumes associated with solid-fuelled rockets, i.e. EXACTLY like that of a Prithvi liquid-fuelled NLOS-BSM. All video-clips of the SLBM's various test-launches show the same."

I think you are ASSUMING that. It looks NOTHING like that of the Prithvi liquid-fuelled NLOS BSM and I repeat NOTHING. In fact it looks like the solid-fuelled SHAURYA and even has trailing plumes associated with solid-fuelled rockets. I'm giving the link for you to compare.

Prithvi : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6-wVOs6lz8

Shaurya : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSots-DnpJ8

sbm said...

Next question is of course estimate of A-1, A-2 and A-4 nos ?

Guess is 36 36 12 ?

Didn't India have 2 classified briefings on Thaad at some point ?

Spykar said...

A few days ago there was a report that from US Studies Centre at the University of Sydney that, and I quote...

"The finalisation of the India-US LEMOA may ease the way for similar facilities sharing arrangements between Australia and India. Australia should be open to allowing India to use its facilities on COCOS ISLAND (once they have been extended and improved) as part of a mutual arrangement in relation to Indian facilities in the Indian Ocean."

Now that its done, do you foresee that happening anytime soon ?

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To SPYKER: LoLz! I don't assume & therefore don't use terms like 'it appears to be'. Either it is or it isn't. It is clear you have not seen the video-clip I had posted earlier about the KN-11 SLBM's test-firing (see from 2.06 which show no exhaust plumes, only a long flame of the type emanated from Nodong-1/Ghauri liquid-fuelled ballistic missiles). So do watch it & then also compare the rate of its acceleration/ascent with those of other solid-fuelled & liquid-fuelled missiles. This corroborative evidence is undeniable. I didn't mention it before because I knew you would revert back with further ill-conceived & unscientific assumptions. Should you require compelling evidence, then do contact those who use terms like "it appears to be" & not "it is" & ask them why they use such terms.

So, do watch the KN-11 test-firing video-clip this time before making further erroneous assumptions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRLo66ytxJI


To SBM: The nos were 24 & 24. Agni-4 nos will also be 24. The classified briefings were not THAAD-specific, but BMD-specific inclusive of the THAAD element. The focus was more on the space-based & terrestrial early warning/command-and-control system.

To THE SEEKER: Work with Raytheon concerns the fusion centre already operational at Gurgaon. Nothing specific on OTH-R. In fact, technology hass advanced by leaps & bounds since then & now IAI has already developed an OTH-R version of the ELM-2090U which is far superior to the OTH-B.

To LUDWIG: GE's AVEN TVC nozzle integration with the GE-F414-INS6 turbofan. Read this press release:

http://www.defense.gov/News/News-Releases/News-Release-View/Article/929270/us-india-joint-statement-on-the-visit-of-minister-of-defence-manohar-parrikar-t

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To SPYKAR: This is why China requires counter-terror alliances with its Central Asian neighbours:

http://indianexpress.com/article/world/world-news/blast-at-chinese-embassy-in-kyrgyzstan-several-feared-dead-3003450/

India does not require such alliances because it already has bilateral counter-terror alliances & strategic partnerships with almost everyone on whose soil Indian interests/installations are targets for terrorists. Furthermore, unlike India's embassies in the Central Asian Republics, China's embassies are targets of both the ETIM & the Hizb-ul-Tahrir that are active in Kyrgyzstan.

US & Australia are alliance partners & have mutual security treaties & systems inter-operability treaties & that's why US-owned installations of NSA are on Australian soil. The same is not the case WRT India & the US.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

More revelations on internal security mismanagement during UPA-2's term in office are emerging:

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/kashmir-non-lethal-options-to-pellets-were-cleared-in-2012-but-file-gathers-dust-3003276/

Spykar said...

That's an old stock video of NK-11 test-firing when it was still using liquid fuel. Not anymore.

sbm said...

Interesting on the BMD. Discussions with concerned persons say that DRDO's interceptors perform reasonably well BUT without THAAD style Early Warning - land and space based - the chances of a successful intercept are low to minimal. Not quite nil but not so far off either.

Shantanu kumar said...

Sir, Are you talking about ELM-2090 TERRA?

Spykar said...

Story that's doing the rounds is.. that the terrorist tried to bomb it because his next door bakery refused to sell the bread to him as he was trying to pay in his national currency, but all the prices were set in Chinese yuan! (Kidding but not really)

Beijing is still set to subdue the whole region into its Western province, capture all its natural resources through its cover-up OBOR infrastructur projects and directly competes with Indian and Western geo-political & economical interests.

rad said...

hi prasun
some dope on the israeli OTH radar please!

what is the real function of the elm 2090 radar ?, for air defense or space defence?.

Alok said...

Considering the mess throughout the Muslim world -Libya, Yemen, Iraq, Syria,Somalia, Afghanistan,Turkey it doesn't seem likely that any major world power would risk messing up things further with a multi national strike on Pakistan in 2018 that you have predicted???
Alok

Vikram Guha said...

PrasunDa,

1. According to this article the Indian Navy has disclosed that it could be cheaper to construct an indigenous set of nuclear-powered attack submarines rather than relying on a foreign vendor for technology. Can you please provide your opinion?

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/home-made-submarines-cheaper-than-those-built-with-foreign-technology/articleshow/53919022.cms?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=ETTWMain


2. This same article states that Navy is soon releasing a tender for P75I. Any truth in this?


3. Eventually several media/pundits are buying your line that the Scorpene leak is not as catastrophic as initially stated. However some of them are suggesting that if details related to Fire Control System have been compromised then it is a serious concern. Please share your thoughts.


Thanks,

VIKRAM

hoods007 said...

prasun

Earlier you mentioned that there are 48 agni 1,2 in service but no agni 3.If there are no agni operational what deterrence do we have against china?

Arpit Kanodia said...

Sir,

One silly question, if A5 is already canisterized, then why not SFC asking for a canisterized version of A4?

Because it's hard to keep the nukes in disassembled state for a canisterized missile?

Anonymous said...

http://satyavijayi.com/dr-subramanian-swamy-writes-pm-initiate-cbi-ed-inquiry-ndtv/ How true is this, Prasun???

kargil said...

Dear Prasunji,

Greetings!!

Thanks you for such in-depth narrative of deployments & assessment of PLAAF

You said "Have just uploaded the section dealing with the SR-75 Penetrator's PDWE-based propulsion system. Later, I will upload data & diagrams of the Northrop Grumman Switchblade manned morphing Mach 3 loiotering interdictor, the Star Raker & Black Star single-stage-to-orbit (SSTO) aircraft, and on Saturday will upload the most interesting part of all--that dealing with the Flux Liner ARV & its down-to-earth physics" on your previous thread "That's Air-Power for you!-1

Eagerly waiting for your rebuttal on Dr. Ashley Tellis papper on IAF Air Power and additional information on Black Star SSTO as well as Flux-Liner ARV as well as your assessment & informed opinion between Indian Navy & PLA Navy.

Also based on your reply of previous thread still waiting for the thread on Russian Black Projects or erstwhile USSR in response to US black projects.

Also please provide the conclusion part of following threads

1. "High-Altitude Manoeuvre Warfare: Perpetuating Unparalleled Feats-1"
2. "High-Altitude Manoeuvre Warfare: Perpetuating Unparalleled Feats-2"
3. "NORINCO-Built Medium/Main Battle Tanks Explained & How They Stack Up Against India's India's T-72CIA Medium Battle Tanks"

Hope for early reply.

Thanking you in anticipation,

Regards,
Pinkal Shah

Siddharth Dhapola said...

Hi prasun !
Do you have any info about the su 30mki upgrade ? What can we expect in the package ?

AJ said...

Prasunda,

1. I havent yet to read an article about LEMOA affect on India-Russia relationships? defence wise and strategically. Bharat Karnad doesnt count. lol.
2. If US Ships and Submarines are to docked at India bases, they can easily spy on our ships and submarines which might discourage Russia from selling more important hardware? i might be wrong but wanted to get your opinion.
3. US sailors are notorious for visiting whore houses / misbehaving with locals, this can also have a negative impact with local population.
4. How will LEMOA be advantageous to India? Is it just a bargain to get access to US tech?

AJ

Spykar said...

Dada,

1) So now will the govt. fastrack the development of the Andaman & Nicobar Islands into a maritime hub, including a dry dock and a ship-building facility ?

2) Also you said JICA was expected to extend funding for the upgradation of naval air bases and construction of new ELINT/SIGINT stations along the A & N chain of islands, and laying of an undersea optical fibre cable from Chennai to Port Blair; and the construction of an undersea network of seabed-based surveillance sensors stretching from the tip of Sumatra right up to Indira Point. Any headway on that ?

3) So is now India a quasi-ally with the US ..? Will the 'foundational-pact' LEMOA pave way for a trilateral or a quadrilateral 'alliance' between US, Japan, Australia and India ..?

CSC said...

Dear Prasunda

What is the position on bvr test firing from the Tejas

What is the position on 2052 radars for Tejas, have they been ordered, have they started delivery or testing

What's the position on the in-flight refuelling of Tejas

Also you had said earlier that the super sukhoi should start arriving in India by 2018, any news ... Also just for a revision for everyone here, what are the likely upgrades and how much of a DiDifferenc will it make.

What's news on the aridhamman and the s4, the aridhammanwas almost ready a long time back, why is it being held back

Any update on the oth b acquisition, any plans and how does it help

Looking forward to your reply

Magicbullet said...

Dada..why this unprecedented wooing by US...also since last ten odd days one K has been replaced by other K in all their news channels..Afghans too are getting restive only Iran is keeping it's cards close to its chest..

The Seeker said...

Sir,

How does the THAAD compare with the S-400 on what the Pentagon calls their 'cost-to-kill' ratio ? And wasn't India developing an exo-atmosperic 'kill vehicle' ? Any chance India to be working with Raytheon on that front? When will India field a full fledged ASAT weapon ?

Spykar said...

Dada,

This might catch your fancy but its in Chinese. I can only read two syllables: cheech & chong :

http://asian-defence-news.blogspot.in/2016/08/chinese-research-papers-on-network.html

Manoj G said...

Hello Prasun,

The Indian Navy has a Design Bureau.

1. Is this Design Bureau located in Delhi?

2. Why have they not been able to develop technologies in house? In other words if they are not designing technologies what exactly was it set up for?

Thanks

Mayur Manapure said...

http://idrw.org/modi-govt-gives-go-ahead-to-air-for-programs-in-balochi-language/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

This shouldhave been done decades ago.

vishakh said...

Hello ,

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/news/press-releases/2016/august/mfc-083116-javelin-joint-venture-signs-letter-of-intent-with-indias-tata-power.html

Javelin Joint venture is done between lockheed and Tata . Will this be 4th Gen model (With Cooled Sensor and thermobaric warhead) or only production of current 3rd Gen ??

Rajesh Mishra said...

For those who are really bothered about the negative impacts of the ever increasing Indo-US friendship on the Indo-Russian friendship, I think that they are not considering the global impacts of the proceedings within last two decades. Albeit Russia is still the No.1 powerful in the field of the Nukes but in overall perspective it has been really relegated to the position of No.3, as meanwhile China has strongly emerged as the No.2 power. As such the positional competitions between China and Russia are in a state of flux and ever widening. Accordingly Russia will be really bothered if India had enhanced its own friendship with China irrespective of Russia. So Russia can not be really bothered much about the increasing Indo-US friendship for objectives that are beneficial to the Russia itself. India and Russia both know very well that they have a mutual all weather friendship and meanwhile Russia too has heard Teng-Siao-Ping telling that he is not bothered whether the cat is white or black if it works.

Ludwig said...

Sir, I just came across something, In Challakere, Karnataka, ISRO, IISc, DRDO, & BARC together are building an Integrated Township. The Township also is building a 3KM long runway. Sir, What is the plans for this facility? Could you shed some light on it?

Spykar said...

Dada,

1200 HP engines for the T-72 Ajeyas? Is it coming ? What are the chances and the alternates?

http://defence-blog.com/army/ukraine-submits-offers-to-upgrade-indian-t-72-main-battle-tank-fleet.html

Anonymous said...

Hi Prasun Da,
Could help us connect the reason for the 130KN test facility that GTRE put up.Rumors are that safran and GTRE will tie up to produce 120KN engine for AMCA .Would appreciate your views on it.I think GTRE is up to something as past 6 years not much have come out .Hopefully issues identified in 2010 in russia is fixed on kaveri core and 80Kn Wet thrust is reached.

Regards
S Singh

Spykar said...

http://slide.mil.news.sina.com.cn/l/slide_8_199_44732.html#p=1

Still no Iron Dome? What defences do we have against them? Is the WS-2 deployed there ? Have we moved our Smerch & Pinakas to ladakh?

Lingaraj said...

Are you sure Deng Xiao Ping meant a cat not a pussy?

Spykar said...

Dada, Any military angle to that ?

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/an-225-revival-proposed-in-new-antonov-china-pact-428949/

financeblogger said...

https://in.rbth.com/economics/defence/2016/08/02/russia-to-make-indian-anti-submarine-warfare-helicopters-more-lethal_617465

As stated by you, Kamov helicopters being upgraded by Rosoboronexport with Selex's ATOS mission management system


Following are the questions




You have mentioned about Pakistan breaking up and things are going accordingly. Post break up, would there be human migration to India and if yes, how would it be managed?




Going through many videos of Hassan Nisar, Tarek Fatah, Hamid Bashani, Munir Sami Rawal and the likesonly Punjab would be the one that would be remain of Pakistan post break up, is my understanding.
So Baluchistan would be an independent nation, Sindh would be an independent nation, Fata and NWFP would go back to Afghanistan, Gilgit-Baltistan and POK would be merged with India. Is this how it is going to be?




If the above break-up of Pakistan would be the fact, Pakistan would become a land locked country. What would become of such a country?

vishakh said...

Hello ,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tw62uM3Lhu0

New Russian Air Defence System for Paratroopers . Is this useful for IA or Airforce ???

Can Israel Spyder used for this purpose??

Thehundred said...

Reality of CPEC setting in

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev5nNexCu1w

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-LLNhSYt_84

The Seeker said...

Dada, Will the countries hosting the US bases in Gulf countries, such as Oman, Qatar, Bahrain, and Kuwait, UAE AND Saudi approve a third party use of it's military facility?

AVI D said...

Does this mean that India is finding it difficult to stabilize Nirbhay?

http://sputniknews.com/military/20160901/1044837866/india-kalibr-cruise-missiles-purchase.html

flanker143 said...

Dear Sir

what extended range pgms are being developed in India when it comes to air dropped, 155mm arty , 120mm mortar munitions ??

as you have posted before that an Indo-Israeli dew munition has been developed for suppressing enemy air defences, sudarshan lgb family is also being developed.

But apart from these can you shed some light on any other project(s) which are being developed in house or with the help some other country like any sdb type lightweight munitions , dual guidance mode munitions, glide or rocket assisted munitions, munitions with more powerful explosives like icl 20 , guided 70mm rockets etc

Thehundered said...

http://www.asianage.com/india/anup-raha-htt-40-trainers-iaf-soon-807

Idrw,org is reporting.. http://idrw.org/arup-raha-htt-40-trainers-iaf-soon/

The indigenous content on HTT-40 is reported to be 80 per cent with about 75 plus systems out of the total 90 on the aircraft sourced from local players and sister divisions of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

is this true Prasun? Is the indigenous content 80%?
and has the IAF changed it's mind to induct 2 different basic trainers? Is it because of the pressure from gov? thanks!

Spykar said...

Prasun da, You need to look at this :

http://defence-blog.com/news/chinas-j-20-stealth-fighter-take-part-in-military-drills-in-tibet.html

Supposedly at the Daocheng Yading Airport, the world's highest civilian airport.

For high altitude test flying ..?

joydeep ghosh said...

@Prasun da

1. your suspicion has been proved correct http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20160902000616

2. your calculation is wrong with HTT40 as Arup Raha said it will join IAF soon http://www.asianage.com/india/anup-raha-htt-40-trainers-iaf-soon-807

3. A post su30mki super30 is due

4. J20 in Tibet, it means more powerful jets are coming to Tibet
http://www.ndtv.com/world-news/chinas-top-secret-stealth-fighter-spotted-in-tibet-days-after-it-warned-india-1453693?pfrom=home-lateststories

your opinion

Joydeep Ghosh

Varunn said...

1) Why are we buying Kalibr from Russia when we are developing Nirbhay? https://in.rbth.com/economics/defence/2016/09/01/india-seeks-calibr-cruise-missiles-from-russia626215_ What will be the range of the version we are buying?

2) Theres nothing we can do about equipments they get from China, but why did India not lodge protest with Germany for this? https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/video-pakistan-navy-rolls-out-new-atr-72-and-scanea-428976/

3) Whats the status F-INSAS successor programme?

joydeep ghosh said...

@prasun da

a few more questions

5. Scorpene p75 project shut at 6 vessels no 3 additional subs, is it true

6. the PMO was alerted by the scorpene leaks by none other than disgraced ex IN chap ravi shankaran, is it true

7. is it a good idea to give asylum to baloch leader brahumdag bugti, who reportedly has asked for it in india

thanks

Joydeep Ghosh

Gessler said...

Hi Prasun ji,

I have been reading around here & there and it appears the Columbia-class SSBN (Ohio replacement) will be sporting a Common Missile Compartment (CMC) setup for the missile silos. Designed by GE's Electric Boat Corp., the same system will likely be shared by the Vanguard-replacement for the British navy.

It is said the CMC will have a quad-pack arrangement. It is entirely possible that Columbia will have 4 sets of these quadpacks (16 SLBMs) while the Vanguard-replacement could have 3 or 2 sets - as I think the brits want to reduce the costs as much as possible with their Successor-class so fewer SLBMs than the present Vanguard-class is likely.

If you have anything to add to that matter, please do so.

However, my question is - what in your opinion is driving this international trend of future SSBN types carrying fewer launch silos than their predecessors? Is it the improvement in electronics & propulsion concepts and MIRVs? But interceptor technologies are only getting better & better, and even the older SLBMs had the MIRV capability.

So what's driving this trend?

Another notable aspect is that while the number of SLBMs (really, the most important cargo of any SSBN) is going down, the weight (displacement) of the submarines is not. But it should! Everything from computer electronics to construction materials are continuously getting smaller and/or lighter in almost every aspect and field of engineering.

Electric propulsion concepts, in my limited knowledge, should also be far lighter than their conventional counterparts.

Increased levels of automation is clearly translating into far lesser number of resident crew that need to be fed & accommodated.

Can you throw some light on why these advancements are not allowing for a submarine to get smaller & lighter when compared to the designs that emerged in the 70s and 80s? Wouldn't it be advantageous for a submarine to be as small & displace as less water as possible?

Or is there technology (modular or otherwise) that's being introduced into modern subs (like electronics, modules designed to be usable for special purposes, etc.) that allows them to do roles their predecessors could not?

Eagerly awaiting your answers!

The Indian said...

Prasun,
Wonder when the government will become a government and sort out the governing properly instead of continuing to entertain the totally corrupt and inefficient bureaucracy to run the government and taxing the hell out of us poor taxpayers and allowing the bureaucrats to waste most of our earnings in their inefficiency!
http://www.firstpost.com/india/bureaucracy-or-bully-why-pm-modi-should-create-a-defence-department-run-by-military-2988238.html

Senthil Kumar said...

Dear Prasun,

http://idrw.org/did-al-qaeda-exchange-former-pakistani-army-chiefs-son-for-zawahiris-daughters/

Is it true that Former Paki's army chief son and Zawahiri Daughter exchange happened?

If it is true, what is happening in Pakistan. Even Paki army cannot safegurd its family.


Thanks
S.Senthil Kumar

Suvo said...

Prasun da,
Indian Air Force chief Arup Raha said the correct thing.ACM Arup Raha "Bagher bachha". But many criticised him.Some news papers smelling Fears of a coup.Is there any chance that the gov. dismiss him like Navy chief Vishnu Bhagwat.





Spykar said...

Prasun da, Questions are piling up and we need your analysis and assessment to make sense of whats going on behind the scenes and beyond, now more than ever.

1. Starting with some bad news as GRSE was disqualified and Philippines has awarded its frigates project to HHI.

2. In light of recent developments do you think Modi's Vietnam gambit will pay off?

3. What are we arming & weaponizing Vietnam, Myanmar and Afghanistan with? If you can list them out.

4. What will be the implications of the 'long-term defense & strategic pact' that pak and china are negotiating ? Will china go for it or will china walk the talk on maintaining 'hard-won sound ties' with India and be 'sensitive to each other’s strategic interests' ?

5. You might find this interesting:
http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_reports/RR1400/RR1414/RAND_RR1414.pdf

Spykar said...

http://m.sputniknews.com/military/20160905/1044975853/pakistan-russia-ambassador-su35.html
http://m.sputniknews.com/world/20160905/1044975268/pakistan-russia-anti-terrorism.html

This I can't believe Prasunda but then Moscow is also financing the $2.5 billion Karachi-Lahore gas pipeline, and with the changing geopolitical alignments do you think Russia is trying to carve a new zone of influence for itself in Asia with China and Russia getting closer and all, to restrict the role of US in the region? Do you think this deal can go through if Pakistan shows the money for it?

Soubhagya said...

Dear Prasun,

Have you vanished??? Common man wake up and help me recover from depression.

Vivek said...

Prasun da
It's been a week since u posted and a lot has happened, things seem to be moving pretty fast before the UNGA session, need ur guidance to make complete sense of it.

Rgds
Vivek

joydeep ghosh said...

@spykar mere yaar

prasun da has his life, family n work let him do his work, when he gets time he will reply jut hope he answers all querries

Prasun da

I am not into physics but i think despite the info leak on Scorpene IN can go ahead with another 3 of the subs & later add AIP module & the VLS capsule to launch Brahmos/Nirbhay variants, i think in doing so the resulting acoustic signatures that are most imp. for any submarine will be markedly different from what has been leaked, thereby IN may succeed in masking many abilities of Scorpene subs based on hydrodynamics.

i say this bcoz if IN decides to go for SSNs instead of Scorpene owing to leaks it will have to make do with the same 83 MW that powers the Arihant as only that reactor can be ready quickly; simply bcoz the new 190 MW reactor cant be ready anytime before 2022 after which it will have to tested in a half boat. all this will eat up huge time that IN cant afford the spare

thanks

Joydeep Ghosh

prashant said...

there is an article by the desi bandalbaaz, & i have a few questions
http://idrw.org/india-us-face-tough-negotiations-cismoa-now-called-comcasa/

1) what are these "less secure" communication radios on c 130s ?
aren't these radios indian ? & even if they are commercially available shouldn't they be safe from lurking interceptors ?
2) same with the data links on p-8i ?

guess, shukla ji wants only usa to spy on india..

Magicbullet said...

June is long gone...Hope the French do not snatch defeat from the jaw of victory.

Spykar said...

Dada,

Now that LUH had its maiden test flight, is the proposal for HAL and AVX to co-develop a version of the LUH with co-axial rotor concept is still on the table as you suggested about two years ago?

And is the IL-214 MTA officially dead now or is it rechristened as MTC ?

https://twitter.com/UAC_Russia_eng/status/773153710457417728

Manuhar Parrykar said...

Hello Ji,
Myself MP .. Naam toh suna hi hoga..

Well i need an honest input.

1. Why is this fascination of F16 and F18? Kaun sa UFO technology they are giving us that all media is going gaga over it?

2. Make In India mein LCA tejas private sector line, Rafale and Hawks Combat version - ye story will get revealed when?

2.1 HAL cant even produce jet 16/year then why not L&T or Tata or Mahindra or any other pvt sector giant and give them 24/year and build 40 jets a year and make continuous better version

2.2 Why F16 love when you know a better single jet aircraft will be preferred any day compared to apna ghar wala bacha Tejas.

2.3 Tejas kabhi 250-300 banega ya 120 mein chutti?

2.4 ye Rafale ka kya position hai sirji? Why media only highlights costa dn negates all support package, operational requirements, base infrastructure, training etc etc which comes in package cost? Ye sab aasman se toh nahi barasta na? Will not that cost come in F16 or F18 as well? Then why that is not highlighted ever? or Weapons and new missiles to be procured?

3. Spykar news on PAF/PN getting Su35? Why should not we allow such sale and use that to bargain more with our country to support modernisation?

4. Apna MIRV plan ka kya status hain.. LRCM? Nirbhay is dud as of now? Don know why we cant even build a missile when you revealed we got Klub missile blue prints.. Is it so complex or whats missing?

5. Scorpene submarine in P75.. Follow on? how many?

5.1 P75I scrap or order super scorpenes or say shortfin baracuda?

5.2 Read in some forum that Mazgaon Dock second line can construct 5 sub parallely. Why we are not using it?

5.3 Indigenous SSK? Sapna ya hakikat?

5.4 DRDO AIP? DCNS FDI - why news say not allowed when they can give us AIP tech?

6. Brahmos Block 4/3+ ? more details please

7. Russians are researching on using 2G network for detecting low flying missiles and cruise missiles. Why not we use our network and help in detection part?

Spykar said...

Sorry for the flurry of questions above. Can't help it. But still i didn't ask the most important one. What are you upto since last week? For now, at least inform us that.

Spykar said...

https://www.nknews.org/pro/what-did-we-learn-from-north-koreas-latest-kn-11-test/

The Seeker said...

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/bengaluru/15-minutes-hovering-marks-light-utility-helicopters-first-flight/articleshow/54028987.cms

Which 10 ton helicopter is Survarna Raju talking about here?

Anonymous said...

power of nature,

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/lake-formed-by-rain-threatens-bro-bridges/article9077816.ece?homepage=true

same will be true for cpec

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

Just returned from a strategic recon mission deep inside 'hostile' territory & hence there was any available web connectivity to avail of due to COMSEC SOPs put in place. In any case, do watch the following that were aired yesterday to coincide with Pakistan's National Defence Day:

PA Armour-1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYLAukF9Sow

PA Armour-2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HStiG9nv9o

PAF’s Upgraded Mirage-IIIDA: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4rthhv_92-special-4th-september-2016_news

PAF: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfie6gbXaZE

PAF: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siswjuLCk-g

Pakistan Army’s New Museum: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EViyIivECAc

PA COAS’ Brazenly Arrogant Speech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84ETLiSabBE

And the following ones as well:

Khan of Kalat Speaks Up in London At Last Against CPEC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukqjU9yfPkU

India’s Nuclear Riddle (about the so-called 'nuclear city' coming up in Karnataka): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCh_ZqKj1lQ

US DoD Press Conference on 29-8-2016 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoyNbpd-7rk

Listen to what he says from 17.10 till 22.27 about the maritime awareness domain & the Andaman Sea, when no one even asked him about that sea. This can be reasonably inferred that he certainly had in mind what I had originally written about the 'Fish Hook' seabed surveillance network & he took special care to mention the term 'Andaman Sea'. No one henceforth should have any more doubts about what I had written & explained some 4 months ago.

Will reply to all remaining outstanding queries in the latest thread later tonight.

Spykar said...

Bravo Prasunda on your return, Hope its a Mission Accomplished on what you set out to do.

Here POTUS said something remarkable at laos:

"We’ve elevated our ties with India across the board, and we welcome India’s growing role in the Asia Pacific.." Wonder what that is.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2016/09/06/remarks-president-obama-people-laos

CHINAMAN said...

You missed this one:

PN: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUv8Z3y5IQo

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To CHINAMAN: Didn't miss it at all. In fact, that programme was a repeat of what was aired last year. Here are the others:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4s6ih0_maarka-6th-september-2016_news

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4s6aj4_din-special-10pm-to-11pm-6th-september-2016_news

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4s6j1u_jamhoor-fareed-rais-kay-sath-6th-september-2016_news

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4s5csa_yeh-teray-pur-israr-banday-6th-september-2016_news

And finally this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKr65aEN5AQ

Pakistan Navy on August 31, 2016 inducted its third ATR-42 transport aircraft and Boeing’s Scaneagle UAV to its aviation fleet as part of the Pakistan Navy’s Aviation Vision 2030, according to the PN’s CNS Admiral Zakaullah at the PNS Mehran base in Karachi.

Nemesis said...

How pathetic it could have been.. provided if india accepted the scan engle under technology transfer for make in india initiative, provided they provided the same to paki navy recently?
so much so for american love for indians....